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MarkV
11-03-2003, 09:20 PM
Some of you people make me sick! When I heard that Ozzie got the job, I nearly jumped for joy cause Jerry Manuel II didn't get the job. Ozzie will bring small ball and fundamental type baseball back to the Sox, something that we've sorely lacked the last six years. Then I get on this message board and everyone seems to have gone out of their minds ripping on the guy. So what if he's not experienced? Ralph Houk won a championship in his first season. Bob Brenly won a championship in his first season. I'm not saying that Ozzie will lead us to a championship in 2004, but let the guy manage a game or two before you start ripping him! The best manager in baseball, Mike Scioscia (that's right-best manager in baseball) won a championship in his third season with the most exciting team I've ever watched, the 2002 Angels. He made sure that they played fundamentally sound ball and he brought some fire to the typically laid back team. I think that Ozzie can do the same thing. As long as Kenny makes some smart moves and we don't have any big injuries, we'll win more games than we did this year.

As for the comments from '94 about: "We don't owe the fans anything...", the rest of the quote is: "except 100% effort."
That's all I want from the players, their best effort to win games. I don't care about individual stats; I want a championship. I think Ozzie will bring that attitude. If he doesn't end up being a great field tactician, at least we won't have to watch corpseball anymore.

I AM 100% BEHIND OZZIE GUILLEN

Dadawg_77
11-03-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
[B]Some of you people make me sick! When I heard that Ozzie got the job, I nearly jumped for joy cause Jerry Manuel II didn't get the job. Ozzie will bring small ball .....]

Small ball make me
:chunks

It is like :kermit your chances to score.

DonkeyKongerko
11-03-2003, 09:22 PM
Your point is already well made and you didn't even mention probably the AL Manager of the Year Tony Pena.

crector
11-03-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
Some of you people make me sick! When I heard that Ozzie got the job, I nearly jumped for joy cause Jerry Manuel II didn't get the job. Ozzie will bring small ball and fundamental type baseball back to the Sox, something that we've sorely lacked the last six years. Then I get on this message board and everyone seems to have gone out of their minds ripping on the guy. So what if he's not experienced? Ralph Houk won a championship in his first season. Bob Brenly won a championship in his first season. I'm not saying that Ozzie will lead us to a championship in 2004, but let the guy manage a game or two before you start ripping him! The best manager in baseball, Mike Scioscia (that's right-best manager in baseball) won a championship in his third season with the most exciting team I've ever watched, the 2002 Angels. He made sure that they played fundamentally sound ball and he brought some fire to the typically laid back team. I think that Ozzie can do the same thing. As long as Kenny makes some smart moves and we don't have any big injuries, we'll win more games than we did this year.

As for the comments from '94 about: "We don't owe the fans anything...", the rest of the quote is: "except 100% effort."
That's all I want from the players, their best effort to win games. I don't care about individual stats; I want a championship. I think Ozzie will bring that attitude. If he doesn't end up being a great field tactician, at least we won't have to watch corpseball anymore.

I AM 100% BEHIND OZZIE GUILLEN


A few things:

1: The worst thing that Ozzie can do is to bring small ball to a team with a hitter's ball park.

2: Since when has Barry/Berry Kenny made any really smart moves?

3: The only attitude that Ozzie brings with him is jealousy of Frank Thomas.

4: Since when has a team that hit 220 HR's guilty of playing "corpseball"?

Corkinator
11-03-2003, 09:29 PM
Ah, finally a voice of reason in the wilderness. Bring on Ozzieball. I live in Florida so I only saw the Sox play at Tropicana Field this year. I never saw such a lifeless team get smacked two games in a row by Lou's D Rays.They homered their way to a win in the 3rd game. the devil rays, used what little talent they had by running the bases, keeping their heads in the game, and generally out hustleing the sox. A team that would lose over 90 games enjoyed playing more than the team we keep saying should have gone deep in the playoffs. I welcome Ozzieball. if this veteran team can't enjoy playing fundamental ball then we deserve our second class status in Chicago. I sure hope they played with more enthusiasm at the Cell, but I couldn't see it from watching on TV.

MarkV
11-03-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by crector
A few things:



4: Since when has a team that hit 220 HR's guilty of playing "corpseball"?


Where the hell have you been the last two years?!
It's obvious you haven't been checking out this site or watching White Sox baseball!

AMestan
11-04-2003, 12:53 AM
Mark V.

I totally agree with you. After listening to the radio today and listening to all the crybabies explain their various theories about why he was hired, what was the motive, why we didn't get Torre, why we didn't get La Russa, why we didn't get Pinella, etc,. Some of our Sox brethren were mad that LaMarr Hoyt was traded for Ozzie (one the best trades ever made by the Sox). These are some of the same baseball experts who think Robbie Alomar can't play second and think we should trade Joe Crede now.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but some Sox fans remind me of the of the crybabies on the North Side who I laugh at on a daily basis. Was Ozzie the best choice? I don't know? Who was out there? Egomaniac Bobby V.? Buddy Bell? Jerry's older brother Cito? Yeah we're guaranteed a Pennant with anyone but Ozzie according to all the experts on the radio and this website! I'm sure that there will be responses to this reply with 50 reasons why Ozzie is terrible. On the other hand there could be 50 other reasons why the others are just as bad. One guy on the radio today wanted Dick Williams, another guy wanted Whitey Herzog. Well I was actually going to call in and I vent my frustration's that we should have got Dick Williams when the A's fired him in the mid 70's. Or I could have requested that we get Casey Stengel and trade for Mickey and Whitey, wait a minute Whitey is still alive maybe he should be our pitching coach. Blah, Blah, Blah.

Two weeks from now there will be a lot of threads on this website with complaints about the stadium renovation. A couple of people might even want the original stadium put back together. If we got lucky and signed Andy Petitte, the experts would complain, if Colon reconsidered our offer the experts would complain, if we signed Millwood the experts would complain, if we got really lucky and we're able to dump Paulie that might cause another Haymarket riot. With all due respect to everyone who disagrees with me, I have faith that if someone would pick up Koch we would all be happy.

crector
11-04-2003, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by MarkV
Where the hell have you been the last two years?!
It's obvious you haven't been checking out this site or watching White Sox baseball!

Actually, I've been doing both. While its true that our team only played .500 ball, it was quite often fun and exciting. True, there were some depressing moments such as that 3-game series at the Metrodome or the loss to Detroit where we left 14 men on base, but it certainly was not "corpseball," at least as I define that term.

Just wondering, but how do you define "corpseball"? To me, corpseball and smallball are basically the same thing, esp. if its being played at Comiskey Park which is a hitter's ballpark. As for the Sox players, there are a few such as Daubach for example who often didn't seem to show much enthusiasm in '03, but contrary to the Frank/Loaiza bashing likes of Julie Swieca, I really didn't see the alleged "lack of heart" that others saw in the team.

SaltyPretzel
11-04-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by crector
To me, corpseball and smallball are basically the same thing

I totally disagree. I consider corpseball the inability to play smallball, like popping up bunts, not hitting behind a runner, or striking out when we need a sacrifice fly. If the Sox were able to play smallball, especially in the beginning of the season, they would have won the division.

steff
11-04-2003, 08:35 AM
blablablablabla.. another band-aid.. blablablabla....

Try NyQuil for that sick feeling.

hsnterprize
11-04-2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by steff
blablablablabla.. another band-aid.. blablablabla....

Try NyQuil for that sick feeling. You mean that nighttime sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, so you can get off Ozzie's case medicine?

thepaulbowski
11-04-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by crector
Just wondering, but how do you define "corpseball"? To me, corpseball and smallball are basically the same thing, esp. if its being played at Comiskey Park which is a hitter's ballpark. .

You must not have paid attention to how the Marlins won the World Series. The didn't out homer their opponent, they did it with good defense, good pitching, and playing small ball (i.e. advancing runners, getting bunts down, sac flys, etc.). I guess you'd rather have Magglio keep grounding in to double plays with bases loaded while swinging for the fences, or Konerko "the rally killer" or Carlos hit into one of their patented inning ending double plays. To me, smallball is fundamental baseball. Since they've gone nowhere doing what they do, maybe they should try something differenct, don't you think.

steff
11-04-2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
You mean that nighttime sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, so you can get off Ozzie's case medicine?



With all due respect prize... pass over my comments if you don't like them.

hsnterprize
11-04-2003, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by steff
With all due respect prize... pass over my comments if you don't like them. Oh no...that's not what I meant at all. I thought that NyQuil comment was funny, so I decided to add to it. Sorry if it came out the wrong way, Steff. I like your posts.

crector
11-04-2003, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by SaltyPretzel
I totally disagree. I consider corpseball the inability to play smallball, like popping up bunts, not hitting behind a runner, or striking out when we need a sacrifice fly. If the Sox were able to play smallball, especially in the beginning of the season, they would have won the division.


Wrong. The Sox would have finished no higher than 4th in a 5 team division. You cannot win through small ball when you play 81 out of 162 games at a hitter's ball park. Also, small ball requires speed and how many speedy players do the Sox have?

The only way that the Sox can win playing small ball would be to both dismantle/rebuild this team and also build a new ballpark that would be a pitcher's dream home like Dodger's Stadium.

dickallen15
11-04-2003, 09:01 AM
Small ball is fine, but you have to have the right players. Small ball will not work with the White Sox current roster. We have seen Lee try to bunt, heck we've seen everyone try to bunt, the only one who was successful consistently was Robbie Alomar. Moving runners over was brutal, is Ozzie going to teach them how to do this? A man who's career high was 26 walks. That right there shows you he didn't ever think of letting the other team hang itself. Read Phil Rogers column today, there are some interesting stories about Mr. Play the Game Right.

crector
11-04-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
You must not have paid attention to how the Marlins won the World Series. The didn't out homer their opponent, they did it with good defense, good pitching, and playing small ball (i.e. advancing runners, getting bunts down, sac flys, etc.). I guess you'd rather have Magglio keep grounding in to double plays with bases loaded while swinging for the fences, or Konerko "the rally killer" or Carlos hit into one of their patented inning ending double plays. To me, smallball is fundamental baseball. Since they've gone nowhere doing what they do, maybe they should try something differenct, don't you think.

You must not have paid attention to how the Marlins won the NLCS. If they did not hit 3 home runs in a row to win Game 1, 9-8, they would have lost the series 4-1. They bunted some, sure, but they also hit a good many HR's, doubles and triples in the NLDS, NLCS and WS too. They were not a small ball team.

Also, by your own definition, small ball includes both "good defense and good pitching." Well, the Sox fielding certainly ranked as one of the top team defenses in the AL in '03 under the fired JM, so to that extent the Sox played small ball this season. As for pitching, that's a different matter. There are 2 spots open on the 5-man rotation and KW does not appear to be interested in acquiring more than 1 pitching FA. Garland is nothing more than a .500 pitcher with an ERA well over 4.00 and Buehrle's ERA has been steadily rising over time. Schoewenweiss shows some promise, but is unproven and as for the likes of Neal Cotts and Danny Wright aka Wrong, well.............

For Ozzie's small ball scheme to actually work, you need a team designed for small ball play including far better pitching than than the '03 Sox, players with much more bunting experience than the current Sox and a new place to play the home games.

Wrigley Field, anyone?

poorme
11-04-2003, 09:27 AM
According to baseballreference.com, the park where the Sox play is a pitchers park.

Park Factor: Batting - 99/Pitching - 99 (over 100 favors batters)

LuvSox
11-04-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
Oh no...that's not what I meant at all. I thought that NyQuil comment was funny, so I decided to add to it. Sorry if it came out the wrong way, Steff. I like your posts.

:o: Blatant ass-kissing :o:

Dadawg_77
11-04-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
You must not have paid attention to how the Marlins won the World Series. The didn't out homer their opponent, they did it with good defense, good pitching, and playing small ball (i.e. advancing runners, getting bunts down, sac flys, etc.). I guess you'd rather have Magglio keep grounding in to double plays with bases loaded while swinging for the fences, or Konerko "the rally killer" or Carlos hit into one of their patented inning ending double plays. To me, smallball is fundamental baseball. Since they've gone nowhere doing what they do, maybe they should try something differenct, don't you think.

You have no ****ing clue what you are talking about. Good watch those games again and when you stop be ignorant on what happen and stop relying on Steve Lyons to tell you what happen then come back here with some accurate ideas. Look at the game logs, the Marlins won becuase hit the **** out of the ball.

Dadawg_77
11-04-2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by poorme
According to baseballreference.com, the park where the Sox play is a pitchers park.

It is for all purposes a neutral ballpark.

poorme
11-04-2003, 09:48 AM
The one thing that sticks out in my mind about the Marlins was their ability to hit what the opposing pitcher gave them. Instead of trying to pull an outside pitch and grounding to SS, they would hit a liner into RF. If the pitcher gave them a hanging curveball, they would hit a homer. If there was a fat oaf on the mound who couldn't field, they would bunt. They just played SMART baseball.

Dadawg_77
11-04-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by poorme
The one thing that sticks out in my mind about the Marlins was their ability to hit what the opposing pitcher gave them. Instead of trying to pull an outside pitch and grounding to SS, they would hit a liner into RF. If the pitcher gave them a hanging curveball, they would hit a homer. If there was a fat oaf on the mound who couldn't field, they would bunt. They just played SMART baseball.

But that isn't small run ball, that is good hitting.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-04-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
But that isn't small run ball, that is good hitting.

Exactly. When Ozzie talks about "bunting," he confuses the issue, too. What is scary is the fact that Ozzie won't have anybody tapping him on the shoulder inside the dugout to point out the difference.

steff
11-04-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
Oh no...that's not what I meant at all. I thought that NyQuil comment was funny, so I decided to add to it. Sorry if it came out the wrong way, Steff. I like your posts.


Sorry bout that prize. I read it wrong. All's well.

Jjav829
11-04-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
You have no ****ing clue what you are talking about. Good watch those games again and when you stop be ignorant on what happen and stop relying on Steve Lyons to tell you what happen then come back here with some accurate ideas. Look at the game logs, the Marlins won becuase hit the **** out of the ball.

Sorry, but they didn't really hit the **** out of the ball. I even went back to look at the statistics on this. The Yankees beat the Marlins in every offensive category.

The Yankees: 743 OPS, .406 SLG%, .338 OBP, .261 AVG, 6 HR, 21 runs, 54 hits, 10 doubles, 1 triple, 84 total bases, 22 walks, 2 stolen bases.

The Marlins: .576 OPS, .300 SLG%, .276 OBP, .232 AVG, 2 HR, 17 runs, 47 hits, 8 doubles, 0 triples, 61 total bases, 14 walks, and 2 stolen bases.

Please explain how they hit the **** out of the ball. If I didn't know who won the World Series, and went to look at these numbers, I would have guaranteed you the Yankees won. Yet they didn't. The Marlins, the team who hit only 2 HR's in the World Series and posted a lousy .276 OBP won.

batmanZoSo
11-04-2003, 01:28 PM
Don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it.

The Marlins were clutch, that's how they won. In Game 6, the Yankees were 0-12 with runners on base. That means they didn't advance a single runner all game.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-04-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it.

The Marlins were clutch, that's how they won. In Game 6, the Yankees were 0-12 with runners on base. That means they didn't advance a single runner all game.

It sure sounds like the Marlins had the superior pitching, doesn't it? Josh Beckett had a lot to do with it. Chalk up a big assist to his manager, too, who was smart enough to ride his hot hand in clutch games. The reason Dusty Baker was watching the World Series from section 1, row C, seat 15 is because he was too stupid not to do the exact same thing.