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Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:03 PM
This might not be pretty. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but this is such a damn typical JR move, it's disgusting.

dickallen15
11-03-2003, 03:04 PM
I agree. I think this could get real ugly.

ChiSox7
11-03-2003, 03:08 PM
I have a feeling that the people on this board would complain and moan no matter who was picked for manager. That's what I think is disgusting. But we all have our opinions, huh?

Geez man. Who did everyone THINK we were going to hire? Torre, La Russa? not a chance. People are sickening sometimes

Procol Harum
11-03-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
This might not be pretty. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but this is such a damn typical JR move, it's disgusting.

Whatever the case, let it be duly noted that Randar has the first official "Fire Ozzie" thread of the new regime. :cool:

Dadawg_77
11-03-2003, 03:14 PM
If he has Frank or Mags bunt he should be fired on the spot.

thepaulbowski
11-03-2003, 03:15 PM
:threadsucks

valposoxfan
11-03-2003, 03:19 PM
I freakin' agree. This thread sucks.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
I have a feeling that the people on this board would complain and moan no matter who was picked for manager. That's what I think is disgusting. But we all have our opinions, huh?

Geez man. Who did everyone THINK we were going to hire? Torre, La Russa? not a chance. People are sickening sometimes

How about someone with 2 damn WS rings to his credit as a real Manager, instead of Wavin' Wally's Hispanic counterpart?

woodenleg
11-03-2003, 03:20 PM
Wah hah ha ha...I was only 2 minutes off in my prediction!! :smile:

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
:threadsucks


Maybe you weren't listening when he said he was going to have everyone, even Frank and Magglio, bunting.

*****. Yeah, I want to see Frank's reaction when he get's a bunt sign with 1st and 2nd, nobody out. That's completely asinine.

Good luck, all my enthusiasm for next year is already gone.


"2004 White Sox: On the Job Training... AGAIN."

valposoxfan
11-03-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Maybe you weren't listening when he said he was going to have everyone, even Frank and Magglio, bunting.

*****. Yeah, I want to see Frank's reaction when he get's a bunt sign with 1st and 2nd, nobody out. That's completely asinine.

Good luck, all my enthusiasm for next year is already gone.


"2004 White Sox: On the Job Training... AGAIN."

Whatever. Relax until you see the season start. I started being depressed about the team last week, but we will be ok. I am waiting until the season starts before I feel bad. Don't freak out yet, Randar.

Hokiesox
11-03-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Whatever the case, let it be duly noted that Randar has the first official "Fire Ozzie" thread of the new regime. :cool:

He doesn't have the official Fire Ozzie tag though, so who cares. This is my opinion:

:threadsucks

joecrede
11-03-2003, 03:27 PM
too early to change Konerko's nickname from GiDPaul to BiDPaul?

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
Whatever. Relax until you see the season start. I started being depressed about the team last week, but we will be ok. I am waiting until the season starts before I feel bad. Don't freak out yet, Randar.

I'm pretty pissed, but I'm not freaking out, really. Mostly, I wanted to start this thread in parody of the poll below.

I do think this was a typical JR hire, and stinks. I don't understand the infatuation with inexperienced managers/head coaches that JR has.

It clearly shows, IMO, that JR is still micro-managing this team. It's akin to firing another GM so Bob Pulford can ressurect himself for a couple months and f*** some s*** up.

I guarantee you one thing: Ozzie will make a lot less manoey than Cito would have.

Kilroy
11-03-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Maybe you weren't listening when he said he was going to have everyone, even Frank and Magglio, bunting.

*****. Yeah, I want to see Frank's reaction when he get's a bunt sign with 1st and 2nd, nobody out. That's completely asinine.

Good luck, all my enthusiasm for next year is already gone.


"2004 White Sox: On the Job Training... AGAIN."

I can't say that I like the idea of Frank bunting, but if its Maggs, bunt, please. Next to GIDPaul, he was the next most likely to roll up a DP ball.

But honestly, I've seen C-Lee do it before, and if it helps the team win, I don't care who does it. I'm not happy if the Sox lose but Frank or Maggs homered.

nasox
11-03-2003, 03:31 PM
why dont u all just shut up and enjoy the fact that Ozzie is back. Man, u wonder why White Sox fans get shafted all the time-we are so divided.

THIS THREAD SUCKS MAJORLY

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I can't say that I like the idea of Frank bunting, but if its Maggs, bunt, please. Next to GIDPaul, he was the next most likely to roll up a DP ball.

But honestly, I've seen C-Lee do it before, and if it helps the team win, I don't care who does it. I'm not happy if the Sox lose but Frank or Maggs homered.

I feel the same way, but these are people who haven't even practiced bunting in 5 or 10 (if not longer) years. If you are going to bunt for Frank, you PH someone.

You don't take the bat out of the hands of your best hitters. This is simply going to be another symptomatic byproduct of MORE on the job learning.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by nasox
why dont u all just shut up and enjoy the fact that Ozzie is back. Man, u wonder why White Sox fans get shafted all the time-we are so divided.

THIS THREAD SUCKS MAJORLY


Ummmmm, because I DON'T enjoy the fact that Ozzie is back???

Keep eating-up the company line. Don't think outside the box, and certainly don't think for yourself. Those things might tire you out.

oheeoh...magglio
11-03-2003, 03:33 PM
I've been a member of this site for 4 months, and I can say this is BY FAR the worst thread on here ever. The guy has never managed a game for us, and a "fire ozzie guillen" thread is started already? Please, simply pathetic. If you disagree with the move that's fine, but all of this apocalypse talk and "ozzie will be worse than bevington" stuff is ridiculous. At least give him a chance......

poorme
11-03-2003, 03:34 PM
The point was that if there were men on 1st and 2nd with no out and the batter was going for a home run rather than trying to move runners up, the next time in that situation he would make them bunt. Probably a bit of exaggeration, but I don't have a problem with it either way.

pudge
11-03-2003, 03:34 PM
Randar, I have to say I don't get you - you were dying for Rauch in our rotation last year instead of getting a proven veteran like Rogers or Suppan, yet now you want a "proven" manager. I know comparing managers to starting pitchers is not quite the same, but still, in principal you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Mammoo
11-03-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
This might not be pretty. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but this is such a damn typical JR move, it's disgusting.

Uh, oh...I suppose the next thing is the, "Ozzie Must Go" website! :?:

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by oheeoh...magglio
I've been a member of this site for 4 months, and I can say this is BY FAR the worst thread on here ever. The guy has never managed a game for us, and a "fire ozzie guillen" thread is started already? Please, simply pathetic. If you disagree with the move that's fine, but all of this apocalypse talk and "ozzie will be worse than bevington" stuff is ridiculous. At least give him a chance......

LOL! It was mostly a joke. If "ozzie will be worse than bevington" was posted, I must have missed it.



The Sox had a chance to add a proven winner and a guy with veteran-friendly tendancies to coach a veteran-laden team. Instead, they hire a guy the JR loves and has never managed a day in his life at ANY level.

The commitment to winning baseball on the South-Side is just too overwhelming for me to handle.

Kilroy
11-03-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I feel the same way, but these are people who haven't even practiced bunting in 5 or 10 (if not longer) years. If you are going to bunt for Frank, you PH someone.

You don't take the bat out of the hands of your best hitters.

Well, w/ Frank, Maggs, PK, instead of bunting, they are hitting behind the runners, etc, not necessarily bunting. But how hard is it to bunt 6 or 7 in the cage every day? You're not gonna have Thomas bunting 3, 4 times a week.

But, if you do it early a couple of times when Thomas bats, then infields are coming in. How'd you like to play on the grass at third w/ Thomas up?

QueerGirrl
11-03-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by oheeoh...magglio
If you disagree with the move that's fine, but all of this apocalypse talk and "ozzie will be worse than bevington" stuff is ridiculous. At least give him a chance......

I agree oheeoh, let's at least give the guy a chance. I'm not happy and I'm not sad/pissed, just hopeful.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Randar, I have to say I don't get you - you were dying for Rauch in our rotation last year instead of getting a proven veteran like Rogers or Suppan, yet now you want a "proven" manager. I know comparing managers to starting pitchers is not quite the same, but still, in principal you seem to be contradicting yourself.

No, I wanted the Sox to figure out what they really needed and not waste 4 million on a guy with a 4.5 or 5.00 ERA that they could find on the scrap heap for nothing. (Rogers)

Managing is not like physical talent. For the most part, it REQUIRES experience. Not only that, but the personal and interaction aspect of it is 95% of the job.

In principal, the two have absolutely no relation to each other.

doublem23
11-03-2003, 03:39 PM
Man you guys overreact to silly threads sometime.

:reinsy
*rolling in a pile of money* Mwahahahaha! All this saved by hiring Ozzie! All for Jerry! All for Jerry!

oheeoh...magglio
11-03-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by QueerGirrl
I agree oheeoh, let's at least give the guy a chance. I'm not happy and I'm not sad/pissed, just hopeful.

I agree, i'm really interested to see what happens, but it's hard to be really happy or really sad about this move IMO. I think Ozzie will be a great manager some day, i'm just not sure he's ready yet, and that's why I kind of have mixed emotions about this.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Well, w/ Frank, Maggs, PK, instead of bunting, they are hitting behind the runners, etc, not necessarily bunting. But how hard is it to bunt 6 or 7 in the cage every day? You're not gonna have Thomas bunting 3, 4 times a week.

But, if you do it early a couple of times when Thomas bats, then infields are coming in. How'd you like to play on the grass at third w/ Thomas up?

Nobody would! Like Thomas is going to beat out a bunt. I'd bet he could beat one out with the 3rd baseman medium depth, about 1 in 100. It would have to be absolutely perfect.

Bunting cannot be learned overnight. As long as they have been away from it (I bet Thomas hasn't even practiced bunting since High School, if that), it would be beyond stupid. You don't ask a .900-1.000+ OPS player to bunt. Pure and simple.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by oheeoh...magglio
I agree, i'm really interested to see what happens, but it's hard to be really happy or really sad about this move IMO. I think Ozzie will be a great manager some day, i'm just not sure he's ready yet, and that's why I kind of have mixed emotions about this.

Those are basically my feelings. I started this thread mostly as a joke, but now I'm playing Devil's advocate since everyone wants to just eat-up the Sox-can-do-no-wrong love-fest.

Rocky Soprano
11-03-2003, 03:44 PM
THIS THREAD DOES SUCK!

What the hell is big deal with making Thomas or Maggs bunt?

The point of baseball is move the runners to scoring position and then bring them in.

How many times did we not see Man on 1 and 2nd and no outs only to see a pop up followed by a double play?

Or man on 2nd with no outs and we still managed somehow not to score.

Bunting is a part of baseball and eveyone should be able to lay the bunt down. I dont care what the hell your name is.

If you dont know how, we will teach you.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Man you guys overreact to silly threads sometime.

:reinsy
*rolling in a pile of money* Mwahahahaha! All this saved by hiring Ozzie! All for Jerry! All for Jerry!

LOL!

1 person get's it. WOW!

poorme
11-03-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Those are basically my feelings. I started this thread mostly as a joke, but now I'm playing Devil's advocate since everyone wants to just eat-up the Sox-can-do-no-wrong love-fest.


Given the daily hell we live being White Sox fans, is it such a horrible thing to have a little hope for a day or two?

Dadawg_77
11-03-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
THIS THREAD DOES SUCK!

What the hell is big deal with making Thomas or Maggs bunt?

The point of baseball is move the runners to scoring position and then bring them in.

How many times did we not see Man on 1 and 2nd and no outs only to see a pop up followed by a double play?

Or man on 2nd with no outs and we still managed somehow not to score.

Bunting is a part of baseball and eveyone should be able to lay the bunt down. I dont care what the hell your name is.

If you dont know how, we will teach you.


See the sig, if you play for one run that is all you will get. Giving up an out is bad, giving up an out with your best hitter is atrocious. You move runners over by walking and getting hits not by giving up outs.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
THIS THREAD DOES SUCK!

What the hell is big deal with making Thomas or Maggs bunt?

The point of baseball is move the runners to scoring position and then bring them in.

How many times did we not see Man on 1 and 2nd and no outs only to see a pop up followed by a double play?

Or man on 2nd with no outs and we still managed somehow not to score.

Bunting is a part of baseball and eveyone should be able to lay the bunt down. I dont care what the hell your name is.

If you dont know how, we will teach you.


ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!?!?!!? This isn't 1912. You have a 40 HR, 40 double hitter coming to the plate with a runner on second base, and you're going to bunt and give up an out without letting him hit.

WOW. The lack of intelligence invoked by a guy who WAS a fan favorite and has managed as many games as you or I have, is absolutely mind-numbing.

oheeoh...magglio
11-03-2003, 03:46 PM
The idea of Mags bunting isn't that bad in my mind with all the dp's he hit last year, but anything resembling the thought of Thomas bunting sends shivers down my spine and may cause me to lose sleep at night.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
See the sig, if you play for one run that is all you will get. Giving up an out is bad, giving up an out with your best hitter is atrocious. You move runners over by walking and getting hits not by giving up outs.


Ding Ding! We're up to 2 people with a clue!

voodoochile
11-03-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
LOL!

1 person get's it. WOW!

FWIW, I was going to do the same thing, but I wasn't on the board when the decision came down and I figured it would get the same reaction yours did, and I didn't want to start another "WSI is negative" argument...

Chicago Derby
11-03-2003, 03:48 PM
I'm a little surprised, but I think JR won out in the end-too cheap to pay for a proven manager, what's new. But, maybe the Oz Man will make a go of it-I'm willing to support him.

CD

soxnut
11-03-2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
THIS THREAD DOES SUCK!

What the hell is big deal with making Thomas or Maggs bunt?

The point of baseball is move the runners to scoring position and then bring them in.

How many times did we not see Man on 1 and 2nd and no outs only to see a pop up followed by a double play?

Or man on 2nd with no outs and we still managed somehow not to score.

Bunting is a part of baseball and eveyone should be able to lay the bunt down. I dont care what the hell your name is.

If you dont know how, we will teach you.


You are right on the money!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:

Rocky Soprano
11-03-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!?!?!!? This isn't 1912. You have a 40 HR, 40 double hitter coming to the plate with a runner on second base, and you're going to bunt and give up an out without letting him hit.

WOW. The lack of intelligence invoked by a guy who WAS a fan favorite and has managed as many games as you or I have, is absolutely mind-numbing.


So your 100% Frank or anyone else for that matter is going to get a base hit or hit a home run?

So what happens when the hit a pop up? And you got both an out and you didnt advance the runners?

Then what? We start to swing for the fences to make up for it?

Yeah I guess its stupid to think that playing small ball will win games. Look at where that got the stupid Marlins.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-03-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
FWIW, I was going to do the same thing, but I wasn't on the board when the decision came down and I figured it would get the same reaction yours did, and I didn't want to start another "WSI is negative" argument...

Okay, so my prediction that Viva will have the first "Fire Ozzie" thread is still valid?

:)

Dadawg_77
11-03-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
So your 100% Frank or anyone else for that matter is going to get a base hit or hit a home run?

So what happens when the hit a pop up? And you got both an out and you didnt advance the runners?

Then what? We start to swing for the fences to make up for it?

Yeah I guess its stupid to think that playing small ball will win games. Look at where that got the stupid Marlins.

Marlins didn't win by small ball. They won becuase the top of their lineup got on and they drove them in. The lost .60% of the games they were out homered in, and won 100% of the games they hit more homers then the other team.

soxnut
11-03-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
So your 100% Frank or anyone else for that matter is going to get a base hit or hit a home run?

So what happens when the hit a pop up? And you got both an out and you didnt advance the runners?

Then what? We start to swing for the fences to make up for it?

Rocky.....you are so right. That's exactly what happens.................and what did happen this past season. And I'm tired of it. Sometimes I wished the fences were 500 feet away, just so they'd get the stupid thoughts of trying to hit onw out would get out of their heads. 3-run home run is the stupidest type of baseball ever played.

Yeah I guess its stupid to think that playing small ball will win games. Look at where that got the stupid Marlins.

Give me a Marlins type of team anytime. :smile:

Randar68
11-03-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
So your 100% Frank or anyone else for that matter is going to get a base hit or hit a home run?

So what happens when the hit a pop up? And you got both an out and you didnt advance the runners?

Then what? We start to swing for the fences to make up for it?

Yeah I guess its stupid to think that playing small ball will win games. Look at where that got the stupid Marlins.


What happens when they intentionally walk Maggs to get Konerko for one of his patented Bases Loaded DP's???

You can play "What if's" until Spring Training, but it ain't gonna change the FACT that it is pure stupidity and madness to take the bat out of the hands of your best players in the heart of your line-up. That's why they're there... to hit with runners on base. If you don't have faith in them getting the job done, you are telling the entire team you don't trust them.

On top of that, you take away any chance for good to come of a free out.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
Yeah I guess its stupid to think that playing small ball will win games. Look at where that got the stupid Marlins.

In addition to the rest of your post, other than Pierre and Castillo, that team won on HR's and clutch hitting from Cabrera, Pudge, Lee, Conine, etc.

Not ONE TIME did they ask Cabrera or Pudge to bunt. Wake up.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-03-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Marlins didn't win by small ball. They won becuase the top of their lineup got on and they drove them in. The lost .60% of the games they were out homered in, and won 100% of the games they hit more homers then the other team.

THANK YOU!

I have no problem if Guillen wants Frank and Maggs to hit behind the runner, put the ball in play, and drive in runs by any means necessary. But that is not what Ozzie said. Ozzie said he wanted Frank and Maggs *bunting*.

That is *not* how the Marlins won a championship and it is scary to think Ozzie might honestly think it was. Hopefully he simply misspoke reaching for another platitude. He seems rather fond of them. :smile:

poorme
11-03-2003, 04:20 PM
Did you actually hear what the man said? He never said he wanted anyone to bunt.

Dadawg_77
11-03-2003, 04:21 PM
If Ozzie gets on Mags, Paul or Frank's case for not taking what a pitchers give him that is one thing. If Mags, Paul or Frank solidly pull a ball but right at someone and Ozzie decides they have to bunt next time, he should be fired in the dugout.

I was pro Ozzie thought we would be something to this team, but now that he sounds like a loser, I mean small, ball champion I am not so sure.

Steve Bartman
11-03-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
LOL!

1 person get's it. WOW!

I thought the thread was fine. Lighten up everybody. I do think Ozzie will be bring a lot of intensity to the team, and that is what we need. There was a good line by somebody on this site this week saying, "Cito Gaston makes Manuel look like bobby Night". It was a good move guys.

cwsox
11-03-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Whatever the case, let it be duly noted that Randar has the first official "Fire Ozzie" thread of the new regime. :cool:



I want to get on baord this one as fast as I can.

I am not happy with Ozzie being named manager. This is a bad dream, please tell me that.

hold2dibber
11-03-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I have no problem if Guillen wants Frank and Maggs to hit behind the runner, put the ball in play, and drive in runs by any means necessary. But that is not what Ozzie said. Ozzie said he wanted Frank and Maggs *bunting*.

I think what he actually said was that he wanted guys to move runners over, i.e., to hit behind the runner when the situation so dictates. Only then did he suggest that if a player fails to do that, he'll make 'em bunt. I don't really have a problem with that. He was more saying that if the big guys don't do their jobs by trying to hit behind runners, there will be consequences.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Steve Bartman
I thought the thread was fine. Lighten up everybody. I do think Ozzie will be bring a lot of intensity to the team, and that is what we need. There was a good line by somebody on this site this week saying, "Cito Gaston makes Manuel look like bobby Night". It was a good move guys.

I couldn't care less about his or Jerry's personalities. Gaston plays the game by the book, not the seat of his pants. I naddition, his players know their roles and know what they are going to do when the come to the park. Manual managed with his gut, which was wrong more often than not. IN addition, the players didn't respect him and they didn't know what to expect from day to day.

This team needed stability, respect and trust more than it needed a loud-mouth Larry Bowa.

Rocky Soprano
11-03-2003, 04:29 PM
Im sure he wont make them do it all the time or maybe he wont. The point is that this team needs to learn how to play small ball.

The Marlins entire game is not small ball but its an important part. How many times did Pierre not bunt himself on, steal a base and scored what ended up being a big run?

The Marlins execute when they need to, the Sox dont.

The Marlins bunted when they needed to, the Sox didnt.

The Marlins got bit hits when they needed them, the Sox didnt.

We could keep this going.

I never said I want to see Frank or Maggs bunting, but if its a close game and we need to make sure we get the runners over, I wouldnt mind seeing them put the bunt down instead of popping up or hitting into a double play.

steff
11-03-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ding Ding! We're up to 2 people with a clue!



Ehem.. here's #3 :D:

maurice
11-03-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
So what happens when the hit a pop up? And you got both an out and you didnt advance the runners?

What happens when they pop up the bunt? Or strike out bunting? Or bunt into a fielder's choice? Or bunt into a double play?

Look, I LOVE guys who can bunt for a hit. Heck, I regularly yell out "BUNT" when I don't think a batter can put the ball in play hard (usually Valentin batting right-handed). However, it's pure idiocy to have a batter with a .200+ AVE bunting to advance a runner from first to second . . . or even from second to third early in the game. Outs are far too precious to waste, unless the situation clearly calls for a sacrifice.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
Im sure he wont make them do it all the time or maybe he wont. The point is that this team needs to learn how to play small ball.

The Marlins entire game is not small ball but its an important part. How many times did Pierre not bunt himself on, steal a base and scored what ended up being a big run?

The Marlins execute when they need to, the Sox dont.

The Marlins bunted when they needed to, the Sox didnt.

The Marlins got bit hits when they needed them, the Sox didnt.

We could keep this going.

I never said I want to see Frank or Maggs bunting, but if its a close game and we need to make sure we get the runners over, I wouldnt mind seeing them put the bunt down instead of popping up or hitting into a double play.


The Marlins flat out-hit their opponents and out-pitched them when they had to and couldn't generate offense. They didn't give up late in games and they didn't fall asleep when they got a bunch of runs early.

That is not small-ball. They hit the long-ball as much as any team in the post-season.

Call it whatever you want, but for the most part it wasn't small ball. They had good clutch hitting and clutch pitching when needed.

I'll take that any day, but it ain't small ball.

steff
11-03-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Did you actually hear what the man said? He never said he wanted anyone to bunt.


Yeah, I heard him. And yes he did....

Randar68
11-03-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by maurice
What happens when they pop up the bunt? Or strike out bunting? Or bunt into a fielder's choice? Or bunt into a double play?

Look, I LOVE guys who can bunt for a hit. Heck, I regularly yell out "BUNT" when I don't think a batter can put the ball in play hard (usually Valentin batting right-handed). However, it's pure idiocy to have a batter with a .200+ AVE bunting to advance a runner from first to second . . . or even from second to third early in the game. Outs are far too precious to waste, unless the situation clearly calls for a sacrifice.

#4!

Daver
11-03-2003, 05:05 PM
Hey WU,could you please make me a fire Ozzie graphic that I can use a tag.

Thank you in advance.

MarkEdward
11-03-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Hey WU,could you please make me a fire Ozzie graphic that I can use a tag.

Thank you in advance.

Damn, you're going to have a field day with this, aren't you? :smile:

Not that I disagree. I'm not a big fan of Ozzie either.

A.T. Money
11-03-2003, 05:14 PM
I think it's funny that Gord Ash fired Cito Gaston for being too laid back.

I also think it's ironic that we also had a "leader" leading our team into corpseball. We hated that, did we not?

Here now we get a manager that will light the fire under some keesters, and perhaps get the same results Tony Pena got, and now we don't like it? We'd rather live with another Jerry Manuel, just because he has some rings? Big deal! We already know the wimpy laid back approach isn't going to work with our team of slugs.

Ozzie may be just what the doctor ordered. Maybe it's good to have a media darling on the south side.

Some of you people bitch just to bitch.

RedPinStripes
11-03-2003, 05:28 PM
I knew I'd see a thread like this when i got home. lol

Randar68
11-03-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
I think it's funny that Gord Ash fired Cito Gaston for being too laid back.

I also think it's ironic that we also had a "leader" leading our team into corpseball. We hated that, did we not?

Here now we get a manager that will light the fire under some keesters, and perhaps get the same results Tony Pena got, and now we don't like it? We'd rather live with another Jerry Manuel, just because he has some rings? Big deal! We already know the wimpy laid back approach isn't going to work with our team of slugs.

Ozzie may be just what the doctor ordered. Maybe it's good to have a media darling on the south side.

Some of you people bitch just to bitch.

It was more than just that, and if you're to blind to see it, there's no point in debating it with you.

So, the whole justification for this is Tony Pena? Good Lord. Gamble you can catch lightning in a bottle. This is like putting your life savings on Red and letting the wheel determine your future.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I knew I'd see a thread like this when i got home. lol

I was curious as to what most would say. I can't believe we think Cubs fans are crazy and unrealistic when a lot of these people are bigger lemmings than Hawk at a JR social event.

RedPinStripes
11-03-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I was curious as to what most would say. I can't believe we think Cubs fans are crazy and unrealistic when a lot of these people are bigger lemmings than Hawk at a JR social event.


I like Ozzie's energy and he talks a good aggressive game. I think it will be a fun team if anything, but i 'm not sold on his managing skills. I wanted someone with a little fire in them managing this team. I hope it's distributed the right way. Ozzie can either hold a team together or rip it apart with the way he is.

This team couldnt go wrong if they got Cito, but i'm really sick of the boring sleepy managers. Ozzie is definatly a big risk, but the move dont surprise me a bit knowing JR.

:reinsy
"It's time........for OZZIE"? NAAAAAAAAA"

:gallas
"THE KIDS CAN MANAGE!!!!"


:giangreco
"My job's gonna get easier HAMMER TIME!"

Randar68
11-03-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I like Ozzie's energy and he talks a good aggressive game. I think it will be a fun team if anything, but i 'm not sold on his managing skills. I wanted someone with a little fire in them managing this team. I hope it's distributed the right way. Ozzie can either hold a team together or rip it apart with the way he is.

This team couldnt go wrong if they got Cito, but i'm really sick of the boring sleepy managers. Ozzie is definatly a big risk, but the move dont surprise me a bit knowing JR.



My biggest problem with this: He doesn't have the kind of players he needs to play that kind of game. It's now obvious he is going to try to force his will and that style of game onto a team that has no clue/desire/ability to do so.

You can't ask a team of slow/no-walk players to suddenly be fast, patient, bunters and OBP machines. It doesn't work that way.

Ozzie certainly didn't sound like someone who'd adjust his team/style around the types of players they have...

I just hope KW goes out and get's a bunch of fast high OBP guys who can bunt, because this is going to be ugly otherwise.

Can you imagine Crede or Konerko trying to beat out a bunt or a DP attempt on a bad sac bunt???? :whiner:


Love the sig by the way.

Pukester
11-03-2003, 06:21 PM
I can only make one comment on the hiring of Ozzie.


:chunks

Jjav829
11-03-2003, 06:24 PM
:gallas
"White Sox baseball... This time, we have a manager with a pulse."

pudge
11-03-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
No, I wanted the Sox to figure out what they really needed and not waste 4 million on a guy with a 4.5 or 5.00 ERA that they could find on the scrap heap for nothing. (Rogers)

Managing is not like physical talent. For the most part, it REQUIRES experience. Not only that, but the personal and interaction aspect of it is 95% of the job.

In principal, the two have absolutely no relation to each other.

Granted, you didn't want the Sox to waste $5 million on Rogers, but you already knew what the Sox needed, and that was Rauch in the rotation, because he was going to be our #3 by the end of the year. Don't make me go dig up the old thread.

I wouldn't say they have "absolutely" no relation. Ozzie is going to learn some things and develop as a manager, similar to how a player would. You could argue that Ozzie should learn how to be a manager in the minors, but then that contradicts you blasting people for saying Rauch needed more time to learn in the minors.

I'm not saying I disagree with your points about Ozzie, I think they are valid, I just think it's a surprising difference from your previous stance. If the Sox really had commitment to winning, they wouldn't care about spending $5 million on Rogers. What do you say to the idea that maybe Gaston was overpriced?

RedPinStripes
11-03-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Can you imagine Crede or Konerko trying to beat out a bunt or a DP attempt on a bad sac bunt???? :whiner:


Love the sig by the way.



Oh Jeez ............. This is why i'm really hoping Konerko goes. Weather Ozzie or Cito manages this team, there are too many mopes on this team. Crede and Thomas can be tolerated for other skills they bring to the game, but Konerko is a 1/4 season player who's only outstanding skill is turning a 3-6-3. I'm a fat slow white guy whith bum knees. I'll bet i can out run Konerko.


I was just gonna change the sig until you said something. lol

MarkV
11-03-2003, 07:58 PM
This is the worst thread ever.

RedPinStripes
11-03-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
This is the worst thread ever.

No, a thread i started about 2 years ago promoting the talentless ******* Rowand was worse. Until i saw Rowand play , i was on his bandwagon. everyone makes big mistakes in life.

doublem23
11-03-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
No, a thread i started about 2 years ago promoting the talentless ******* Rowand was worse. Until i saw Rowand play , i was on his bandwagon. everyone makes big mistakes in life.

Thanks, RPS.. I tried to repress that thread. :smile:

RedPinStripes
11-03-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Thanks, RPS.. I tried to repress that thread. :smile:

LOL! Bad memeories dont go away fast enough. :D:

Lip Man 1
11-03-2003, 08:25 PM
I have no idea if this is a good move or a bad one but I do wonder if Randar and anybody else would please post a list of potential candidates that the Sox should have looked into.

Ozzie was a bad hire in their opinion, it's possible they are correct but I'd like to see who they thought the Sox should have hired or interviewed.

Of course a few constraints have to be added to their propsed list.

1. The Sox WILL NOT spend more then say a million a season on the guy.

2. The Sox WILL NOT hire a manager with an independent streak who's liable to tell management to shove it up their rear end. (forget about Davey Johnson or Jim Fregosi)

3. The Sox WILL NOT be spending more then say 55 million on a team payroll. (goodbye Cito Gaston)

4. The guy has to actually be available (means means you can forget about LaRussa, Piniella, Baker, Leyland and Tom Kelly)

OK then... I'd love to see your list.

Lip

MarkV
11-03-2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I have no idea if this is a good move or a bad one but I do wonder if Randar and anybody else would please post a list of potential candidates that the Sox should have looked into.

Ozzie was a bad hire in their opinion, it's possible they are correct but I'd like to see who they thought the Sox should have hired or interviewed.

4. The guy has to actually be available (means means you can forget about LaRussa, Piniella, Baker, Leyland and Tom Kelly)

Lip

La Russa=Too mulleteee
Piniella=Too DevilRayeee
Baker=Too stupideee
Leyland=Too smokeee
Kelly=Too lounging aroundeee

I wonder what the fans would be saying if Carlton Fisk was the new manager. They'd probably love it, even though he's never managed before.

Lip, you are forgeting that Larry Horse was also available.
But he may be a little drinkeee.

Dadawg_77
11-03-2003, 08:46 PM
Earl Weaver (Probably wouldn't take it but he is my proto type for a manager.) "The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."

Rick Peterson - Pitching Coach Oakland A's soon to be New York Mets.

Larry Rothschild

Mel Stottlemyre

Frank Robinson - I am sure MLB would let him go if he want to.

MarkV
11-03-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Earl Weaver (Probably wouldn't take it but he is my proto type for a manager.) "The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."

Rick Peterson - Pitching Coach Oakland A's soon to be New York Mets.

Larry Rothschild

Mel Stottlemyre

Frank Robinson - I am sure MLB would let him go if he want to.

Peterson and Stottlemyre never managed before, much like Ozzie. As for Rothschild, you must not remember the wonderful job he did managing the Devil Rays.

Dadawg_77
11-03-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
Peterson and Stottlemyre never managed before, much like Ozzie. As for Rothschild, you must not remember the wonderful job he did managing the Devil Rays.

I know they havn't but they have experince in the most imporant area a manger has managing the pitching staff. And like you said Rothschild manage the Devil Rays, God couldn't get .500 record form the talent he had.

MarkV
11-03-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I know they havn't but they have experince in the most imporant area a manger has managing the pitching staff. And like you said Rothschild manage the Devil Rays, God couldn't get .500 record form the talent he had.

Yes, but Ozzie has learned from managers that have handled their pitching staffs well, i.e. Torborg, Cox, McKeon.

idseer
11-03-2003, 08:58 PM
my 2 cents ...

ignorant thread! unbelievably premature!

based on not much more than a few comments of introduction.
riddled with the fear of frank thomas bunting 2 times a game on average.

it would be very funny if it weren't so sad.

Dadawg_77
11-03-2003, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
Yes, but Ozzie has learned from managers that have handled their pitching staffs well, i.e. Torborg, Cox, McKeon.

You lost all and total credibility by claiming Torborg handle pitching staffs well. He was fired because he didn't handle a pitching staff well. How many arm injuries did the Marlins, Expos and White Sox have with Torborg there?

MarkV
11-03-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
You lost all and total credibility by claiming Torborg handle pitching staffs well. He was fired because he didn't handle a pitching staff well. How many arm injuries did the Marlins, Expos and White Sox have with Torborg there?

Most of the guys that were hurt on the Marlins had already experienced arm problems in the minors before they ever even got to the big leagues. Name me the pitchers that got hurt when Torborg was with the Sox or the Expos.

GoRAYGo
11-03-2003, 09:19 PM
I think that Ozzie is fine-- he will be a good manager hell he will also sell tickets there are lots of Sox fans who have nothing but good feelings about Ozzie. Also, he is honest we need to be POSITIVE, Comiskey is being RENOVATED OZZIE is our manager-- so everybody stop it. WE ARE NEVER GOING TO BE ABLE TO CHALLENGE THE CUBS OR ANYONE ELSE UNLESS WE ARE POSITIVE

Lip Man 1
11-03-2003, 09:30 PM
From the WSI Interview with Donn Pall about the "notion" that Jeff Torborg ruined pitchers...

ML: I had heard this and donít know if itís true. Maybe you could shed some light on it. I had heard that some members of the Sox upper organization felt that Jeff ruined Bobby Thigpen, that he used him too much and that was one of the reasons the Sox "encouraged" Jeff to take the Mets job, that if he, didnít he was going to get fired. Is that true?

DP: "I never heard that. I donít see how anybody could have felt that way. If anything Jeff took special care of all of his pitchers. We were in Seattle one time and Jeff told us before the game that no matter what happened, Bobby, Barry, and I, all the right handers, were not going into the game, that we could just shut it down. All of us had pitched two or three games in a row and Jeff said thatís enough. Those last three games, when we finished the season in Boston, and they were fighting for the division, Jeff told Bobby he wasnít going to be used. Bobby had already set the record and Jeff felt that was enough. And Bobby didnít pitch in those three games."

"Bobbyís trouble and I know the coaches told him about this many times, was that even if he was loose and ready, heíd keep throwing in the bullpen. If it was the last of the 8th and Bobby knew heíd be going in the next inning, heíd loosen up, but if the Sox had a long inning or scored three or four runs, Bobby would keep throwing! He wouldnít stop... I guess he was bullheaded that way. Bobby threw three times longer then he needed to and thatís what wore him out." (Authorís Note: Bobby went from 57 saves in 1990, to 30 in 1991, to 22 in 1992, to one before being traded to the Phillies on August 10, 1993 for pitcher Jose DeLeon.)

Lip

Randar68
11-03-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Granted, you didn't want the Sox to waste $5 million on Rogers, but you already knew what the Sox needed, and that was Rauch in the rotation, because he was going to be our #3 by the end of the year. Don't make me go dig up the old thread.

I wouldn't say they have "absolutely" no relation. Ozzie is going to learn some things and develop as a manager, similar to how a player would. You could argue that Ozzie should learn how to be a manager in the minors, but then that contradicts you blasting people for saying Rauch needed more time to learn in the minors.

I'm not saying I disagree with your points about Ozzie, I think they are valid, I just think it's a surprising difference from your previous stance. If the Sox really had commitment to winning, they wouldn't care about spending $5 million on Rogers. What do you say to the idea that maybe Gaston was overpriced?


If the Sox had signed Kenny Rogers, would Loaiza even been in the rotataion? Would he even have been given a chance.

You can pull hindsight on me any time you want, but don't be a revisionist. I said tot see if Rauch was healthy and that he could be as good as our #3 starter by the end of the year if healthy. He wasn't healthy. Fine.

Nobody can predict everything let alone things like this accurately. They are absolutely not related, because the 2 have nothing to do with each other. You could pull an instance of anyone being wrong out of the air, but that doesn't alone invalidate anything they will say in the future.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I have no idea if this is a good move or a bad one but I do wonder if Randar and anybody else would please post a list of potential candidates that the Sox should have looked into.

Ozzie was a bad hire in their opinion, it's possible they are correct but I'd like to see who they thought the Sox should have hired or interviewed.

Of course a few constraints have to be added to their propsed list.

1. The Sox WILL NOT spend more then say a million a season on the guy.

2. The Sox WILL NOT hire a manager with an independent streak who's liable to tell management to shove it up their rear end. (forget about Davey Johnson or Jim Fregosi)

3. The Sox WILL NOT be spending more then say 55 million on a team payroll. (goodbye Cito Gaston)

4. The guy has to actually be available (means means you can forget about LaRussa, Piniella, Baker, Leyland and Tom Kelly)

OK then... I'd love to see your list.

Lip




How about:

1) Cito Gaston. Veteran Team does not necessarily equal 80 million dollar payroll.

2) Willie Randolph

3) Larry Rothschild

4) Larry Dierker

5) Anyone with actual managing experience at any level


Anyone who thinks Ozzie's experience as a third base coach for a year or two is comparable or equivalent to any of the mentioned above, as was just tpreviously suggested, is absolutely out of their GOURD! *****!


I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but the way some people are simply blindly loyal/lemmings is what is sickening.

What, outside of some peoples' memories of Ozzie as a hot-headed, no hit, no walk SS, qualifies him to be a viable managing candidate.

All 4 I mentioned would have the respect of the veterans the minutes they walked in the door. Ozzie? Who knows.

It may work, it may not, who's to know? I'm simply asking the questions and raising points people are apparently unwilling to recognize as real concerns everyone should have to some extent.

I see why the media has such an effect on people. They'll believe anything they read ro see on the news because that's easier than thinking for yourself.

cwsox
11-03-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by idseer
my 2 cents ...

ignorant thread! unbelievably premature!

based on not much more than a few comments of introduction.
riddled with the fear of frank thomas bunting 2 times a game on average.

it would be very funny if it weren't so sad.


what is funny is someone who is probably not old enough to remember Ozzie's personality when he was playing commenting on people who question his ability and concluding that it is based on "a few comments of introduction." The world and human history did not begin when the current age of college students was born. Some of us are very old, but we remember very well. Ozzie has no patience, never did, doesn't show it now, and the last player from those years who I would think of as managerial material was Ozzie.

Randar68
11-03-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by GoRAYGo
I think that Ozzie is fine-- he will be a good manager hell he will also sell tickets there are lots of Sox fans who have nothing but good feelings about Ozzie. Also, he is honest we need to be POSITIVE, Comiskey is being RENOVATED OZZIE is our manager-- so everybody stop it. WE ARE NEVER GOING TO BE ABLE TO CHALLENGE THE CUBS OR ANYONE ELSE UNLESS WE ARE POSITIVE

IIRC, when he was fired, many of the pitchers expressed their extreme displeasure over the way they were handled. He was ridiculed over his handlings of young pitchers who had already had arm problems and how he was not protecting them or limiting their work at all.

Beckett, Burnett, and several others were key early injuries due to over use, IIRC...

Mammoo
11-03-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
Lip, you are forgeting that Larry Horse was also available.....

...get a ****ing life!!!!!!!!!!!!

vegyrex
11-03-2003, 11:14 PM
During one game in the early 90's Hawk suggested Frank lay down a bunt. Wimpy was aghast at the thought. He said "If Frank even tries to bunt, I'm going down there and slap him."

I can hardly wait to see Frank or Mags attempt to lay down a bunt. :angry:

Folks, the nightmare is just beginning. :(:

Dub25
11-03-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
I think it's funny that Gord Ash fired Cito Gaston for being too laid back.

I also think it's ironic that we also had a "leader" leading our team into corpseball. We hated that, did we not?

Here now we get a manager that will light the fire under some keesters, and perhaps get the same results Tony Pena got, and now we don't like it? We'd rather live with another Jerry Manuel, just because he has some rings? Big deal! We already know the wimpy laid back approach isn't going to work with our team of slugs.

Ozzie may be just what the doctor ordered. Maybe it's good to have a media darling on the south side.

Some of you people bitch just to bitch.

Ding Ding. The first post I read that has a clue.

MRKARNO
11-03-2003, 11:37 PM
As you cry This:
:chickenlittle

Realize, you probably wont see much of this anymore:

:corpseball

JRIG
11-03-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
Here now we get a manager that will light the fire under some keesters, and perhaps get the same results Tony Pena got, and now we don't like it?

Exactly what "results" are you talking about? A third place finish? Going 26-30 down the stretch? Having a 67-76 record after a blistering 16-3 start to the season?

If Guillen gets the same results Tony Pena got he should be fired.

doublem23
11-03-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO

Realize, you probably wont see much of this anymore:

:corpseball

But we'll see plenty of bunting!

voodoochile
11-03-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by cwsox
what is funny is someone who is probably not old enough to remember Ozzie's personality when he was playing commenting on people who question his ability and concluding that it is based on "a few comments of introduction." The world and human history did not begin when the current age of college students was born. Some of us are very old, but we remember very well. Ozzie has no patience, never did, doesn't show it now, and the last player from those years who I would think of as managerial material was Ozzie.

Cdub, idseer is as old or older than you...

JRIG
11-03-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
But we'll see plenty of bunting!

We need an "Ozzieball!" tag for every first inning bunt.

voodoochile
11-03-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
But we'll see plenty of bunting!

What's wrong with bunting? If we fans see plenty of bunting, that means the playoffs are here. Oh wait, you do mean those red white and blue banners they hang from the walls for big games, right?

I am hoping that is what Ozzie meant anyway...

Lip Man 1
11-04-2003, 12:55 AM
When the Sox were actively negotiating with Kenny Rogers, Dan "I Can't Pitch" Wright was already hurt.

Loazia had already had three lights out spring training performances. Signing Rogers would in no way have kept Loazia out of the rotation.

and from what some in the Sox organization (including Williams) had to say about Loazia's talent and ability had the Sox signed both Rogers and Suppan say in February i still think they would have pursued Loazia very hard.

Just my opinion.

Lip

hsnterprize
11-04-2003, 07:10 AM
:threadsucks :threadsucks :threadsucks :threadsucks

...and he told 2 friends...and they told 2 friends...and so on, and so on, and so on...

And let me put the cap on this one...



:tomatoaward

cwsox
11-04-2003, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Cdub, idseer is as old or older than you...

then I apologise on my reading the location of State College as the sign of a college student - and I appeciate the kind correction. That doesn't negate my main point that criticism of Ozzie is not based on a few comments at a press conferance but watching this guy his entire career.

Kilroy
11-04-2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
But we'll see plenty of bunting!

I think a lot of us need to step back from the "bunting" comments. They're already misquoted.

For the record:

"If there's runners on 1st and 2nd, and no one out, and they don't do the job and move them over, I don't care who it is. I don't care if its Frank or Magglio, the next time, they'll be bunting."

Ozzie Guillen

Seems to me, that a reasonable effort to do what is required in that situation will keep us from ever seeing Frank or Maggs bunt.

LuvSox
11-04-2003, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
I freakin' agree. This thread sucks.

Sucks. Hard.

Dadawg_77
11-04-2003, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I think a lot of us need to step back from the "bunting" comments. They're already misquoted.

For the record:

Seems to me, that a reasonable effort to do what is required in that situation will keep us from ever seeing Frank or Maggs bunt.

The quotes show Ozzie first instinct will be to play small run ball, which is a horrible way to play. It will kill this team.

idseer
11-04-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by cwsox
what is funny is someone who is probably not old enough to remember Ozzie's personality when he was playing commenting on people who question his ability and concluding that it is based on "a few comments of introduction." The world and human history did not begin when the current age of college students was born. Some of us are very old, but we remember very well. Ozzie has no patience, never did, doesn't show it now, and the last player from those years who I would think of as managerial material was Ozzie.


in my opinion how you perceived ozzie as a player is not what you'll see as a manager. in fact, cw, what you see in any 20 year old is NOT what you're likely to see when they're 40.

and i'll tell you what is funny cw. someone ignorant enough to make such a statement to someone who clearly remembers aparicio as a rookie!

idseer
11-04-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by cwsox
then I apologise on my reading the location of State College as the sign of a college student - and I appeciate the kind correction. That doesn't negate my main point that criticism of Ozzie is not based on a few comments at a press conferance but watching this guy his entire career.

apology accepted. state college IS a college town in pa. the home, in fact, of psu.

anyway, i was never suggesting the man's life was summed up in his 'acceptance' speech. the point of this therad all started with a tremendous overreaction to a comment about 'bunting'. would you agree that this point was stretched to a ridiculous degree?
did YOU get the impression and believe that ozzie will be bunting his sluggers often?
i sure didn't. in fact, what it sounded like to me was when a player, such as thomas, doesn't follow directions with runners on and attempt to move them along as opposed to swinging from his heels he will be instructed to bunt them next time ... kind of as a punishment. i assume if his orders are still not followed he will be benched ... and i wholeheartedly agree!

i know ozzie will not be perfect. you tell me what manager is.
in my opinion, however, ozzie deserves better than the welcome that randar and others here have given him. how stupid it is to spread this crap about a guy who hasn't a chance to talk to the players much less manage one game yet.
my initial post stands. this thread was pusilanimous.

Randar68
11-04-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i know ozzie will not be perfect. you tell me what manager is.
in my opinion, however, ozzie deserves better than the welcome that randar and others here have given him. how stupid it is to spread this crap about a guy who hasn't a chance to talk to the players much less manage one game yet.
my initial post stands. this thread was pusilanimous.

I started this thread satirically in reaction to a poll question asking how long it would be until the first Thread was started.

I will give Ozzie a chance, but I remember his playing career and I certainly have his comments when he left the organization ingrained. I have a feeling this thing will blow up, and I'm voicing many of my concerns in this thread, many of which still lay unchallenged, over 100 posts later.

idseer
11-04-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
I started this thread satirically in reaction to a poll question asking how long it would be until the first Thread was started.

I will give Ozzie a chance, but I remember his playing career and I certainly have his comments when he left the organization ingrained. I have a feeling this thing will blow up, and I'm voicing many of my concerns in this thread, many of which still lay unchallenged, over 100 posts later.

i challenge most of your concerns. i think a lot of people challenged your concerns. you just aren't buying. the proof will be in the pudding.

Randar68
11-04-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i challenge most of your concerns. i think a lot of people challenged your concerns. you just aren't buying. the proof will be in the pudding.

Citing the "fire" he played with does not address the issue of that being the exact opposite of the personality of the veteran players on this team. When have Frank and Maggs ever given you the indication they like to have fires lit around/under them???

He has ZERO experience managing a team, and team. Managing a pitching staff???? PULEASE! The only way he learns effectively on the job is if he has Cooper surgically attached to his left hip, and Nossek attached to his right hip.

What happens to this team the first time Ozzie blows up on someone in front of or to the media??? You think the guys on this team handle criticism well??? Remember Frank/Wells/Konerko??? That's one/two times. It'll be a regular occurrance under Guillen.

Paulwny
11-04-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by idseer
to someone who clearly remembers aparicio as a rookie!

I remember Aparicio as a rookie and Ozzie as a player couldn't carry Aparicio's jock strap.
Aparicio was a lead off hitter because he could work the count. Ossie swung at everything and batted 9th.
Aparicio knew how to steal bases.
I never heard or read of Aparicio being fooled by the "hidden ball trick". Ossie fell for it as least 2x that I know of because he couldn't keep his head in the game.

idseer
11-04-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Citing the "fire" he played with does not address the issue of that being the exact opposite of the personality of the veteran players on this team. When have Frank and Maggs ever given you the indication they like to have fires lit around/under them???

He has ZERO experience managing a team, and team. Managing a pitching staff???? PULEASE! The only way he learns effectively on the job is if he has Cooper surgically attached to his left hip, and Nossek attached to his right hip.

What happens to this team the first time Ozzie blows up on someone in front of or to the media??? You think the guys on this team handle criticism well??? Remember Frank/Wells/Konerko??? That's one/two times. It'll be a regular occurrance under Guillen.

frank and maggs won't be giving you indications they might need a 'fire' lit under them. that sure doesn't mean they don't. i don't get your assumptions here. what makes you think a 29 and a 35 year old can't be motivated? if they feel they are SOOOO precious and refuse to learn anything new, then i say DUMP THEM! you talk as if they have reached some kind of god status. i disagree!

true, oz has no experience as a manager. he DOES have experience with this organization, with most of these players, with the game in general, and as a coach for one year for a world series champion. you talk as if someone with no actual managing experience can manage successfully. you and i both know this isn't true. as to your remark about his coaches ... well that's plain stupid. i would bet all managers will tell you they depend a good deal on their coaches. so what's your point here? ya got none!

as to your last remark. well, what happens if that never happens? i love people who make up scenarios that pose this huge problem and then expect answers for their hypothetical.
why don't we wait and see if any of that comes about, randar?
persoanlly, i kinda hope he DOES blow up a time or 2 with some of these underacheivers. have you considered that it just might be a GOOD thing?

my thoughts in a quick blurp: some players on this team have forgotten they're on a TEAM! maybe ozzie will straighten them out or chase them away. either would be to the good imo.

idseer
11-04-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I remember Aparicio as a rookie and Ozzie as a player couldn't carry Aparicio's jock strap.
Aparicio was a lead off hitter because he could work the count. Ossie swung at everything and batted 9th.
Aparicio knew how to steal bases.
I never heard or read of Aparicio being fooled by the "hidden ball trick". Ossie fell for it as least 2x that I know of because he couldn't keep his head in the game.

i wasn't comparing the two was i?
but i wouldn't assume looie never made a mental mistake. do you? if you agree with me, then what is your point?

Paulwny
11-04-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i wasn't comparing the two was i?
but i wouldn't assume looie never made a mental mistake. do you? if you agree with me, then what is your point?

Sorry, I misread :smile:

pudge
11-04-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
If the Sox had signed Kenny Rogers, would Loaiza even been in the rotataion? Would he even have been given a chance.

You can pull hindsight on me any time you want, but don't be a revisionist. I said tot see if Rauch was healthy and that he could be as good as our #3 starter by the end of the year if healthy. He wasn't healthy. Fine.

Nobody can predict everything let alone things like this accurately. They are absolutely not related, because the 2 have nothing to do with each other. You could pull an instance of anyone being wrong out of the air, but that doesn't alone invalidate anything they will say in the future.

I've already argued that they are not completely unrelated, but you're choosing to disagree, fine. I'm just trying to understand, because I can appreciate that you are one of the more articulate and thought-provoking posters around here... it's just that I'm really baffled as to what you want out of this franchise.

harwar
11-04-2003, 01:20 PM
I literally got off the plane from norway a few hours a go and i can't believe that Ozzie Guillen is the new White Sox skipper.It is a typical JR move and i'd be surprised if we can even make 2nd place next year.
What a total Freakin BUMMER!!!

Randar68
11-04-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I've already argued that they are not completely unrelated, but you're choosing to disagree, fine. I'm just trying to understand, because I can appreciate that you are one of the more articulate and thought-provoking posters around here... it's just that I'm really baffled as to what you want out of this franchise.

I want a comittment to winning and spending 80 million at least, etc etc. Given that the 80 million won't happen, I'd like to see this franchise act in a smarter and more responsible manner, especially in regards to how they go about hiring managers/coaches and what their team strategy is.

They have assembled a team designed to hit for power, and generally, is not a fast team. Those are the players they have and are stuck with. So, instead of getting a manager to fit that style of play, they get a guy who comes out and says he wants to play small ball and has absolutely zero experience as a manager or handling a pitching staff, one of Jerry's biggest weaknesses.

There were guys out there that would have fit this team's makeup. They either made too much money, would have no problem standing up to management, or would want to bring in their own staffs, instead of keeping the Kenny/Jerry appointed staff almost completely in place.

It's a typical chicken-doodoo move by JR et al. This is the same line of thinking that has yet to produce a playoff series win since the day Jerry took control of the franchise.

I don't agree with the move, because instead of hiring 1 guy to fit the 25 or so they have, they hired a guy that will force them to move half those players over the next 2 years, IMO, to play the style of ball he wants to play! Not what I want to see when I am expecting a Central Division crown next season.

What's more difficult

Randar68
11-04-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by idseer
frank and maggs won't be giving you indications they might need a 'fire' lit under them. that sure doesn't mean they don't. i don't get your assumptions here. what makes you think a 29 and a 35 year old can't be motivated? if they feel they are SOOOO precious and refuse to learn anything new, then i say DUMP THEM! you talk as if they have reached some kind of god status. i disagree!

Frank, Maggs and Lee were the only 3 every day guys in the lineup all year that came and competed every day they were in the lineup. Those are the last guys that need this blow-hard lighting a fire under them. Yet, who does Ozzie mention in the press conference?

Originally posted by idseer
true, oz has no experience as a manager. he DOES have experience with this organization, with most of these players, with the game in general, and as a coach for one year for a world series champion. you talk as if someone with no actual managing experience can manage successfully. you and i both know this isn't true. as to your remark about his coaches ... well that's plain stupid. i would bet all managers will tell you they depend a good deal on their coaches. so what's your point here? ya got none!

You're joking, right??? Ozzie has only been in baseball as a coach of any kind, for what, 2 years? As a 3rd base coach??? Are you insinuating that he doesn't require any knowledge or experience handling a staff of players, a pitching staff, and an entire coaching staff, as the head guy in the group???

Sorry, man, but 3rd base coach is one step above bullpen catcher when it comes to how involved you are in the decision making processes or game-time decisions. He's a relay man for signs from the dugout and decides split-second whether to send a guy home or hold him. How on God's Green Earth does that qualify him to be manager? Everyone I mentioned has 15+ years experience in the dugout as or with top coaching staffs in baseball. Ozzie spends 2/3rds of a season with Jack McKeown and now he's a viable managing candidate???

BLA!

Originally posted by idseer
as to your last remark. well, what happens if that never happens? i love people who make up scenarios that pose this huge problem and then expect answers for their hypothetical.
why don't we wait and see if any of that comes about, randar?
persoanlly, i kinda hope he DOES blow up a time or 2 with some of these underacheivers. have you considered that it just might be a GOOD thing?

my thoughts in a quick blurp: some players on this team have forgotten they're on a TEAM! maybe ozzie will straighten them out or chase them away. either would be to the good imo.

If this team blows up, they have no chance to win the division. Yeah, I hope they blow up too, I mean, I'll be a lot less interested in baseball and have a lot more time for other things during the summer

I hope Ozzie works out, but my head is not in-sync with my heart.

soxguy
11-04-2003, 10:18 PM
hooray for KW JR and all CWS fans! Ozzie is an excellent hire for a manager. He will bring the necc. attitude and spark to this listless underachieving ballclub. How can he possibly be any worse than that bag of dung Manuel? This is a refreshing change of scenery for the white sox. Look at the crop of potentials that were out there anyway......Cito,Terry francona,wally bachman, buddy bell, maybe even bobby valentine,not to mention the animated corpse of jim leyland! I was pulling for ozzie all the way and this will be a fun ride. God forbid White Sox fans agree with what JW and KW decide!!!! I know its en vogue to be a complaining, bitter, anti-managemaent white sox fan,.........JEEZ give me a break. Hey guys, if you don't like it there is another team in this town. Don't let the turnstile hit ya in the a**.

Mo308oM
11-04-2003, 10:22 PM
we have to give the man a chance. i mean yea he has some outrageous idea, but ya never know maybe he the new manager that can lead us somewhere.