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valposoxfan
11-03-2003, 02:11 PM
This is Ozzie's infamous line to the press during the '94 strike. Seeing that he is our new manager, how does everyone perceive Ozzie nearly ten years after that comment. Is he forgiven?

batmanZoSo
11-03-2003, 02:13 PM
"...except to give 100% every day."

Puts a little better spin on it I think.

poorme
11-03-2003, 02:13 PM
I'd like to hear what question he was asked and what his complete answer was.

anewman35
11-03-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
This is Ozzie's infamous line to the press during the '94 strike. Seeing that he is our new manager, how does everyone perceive Ozzie nearly ten years after that comment. Is he forgiven?

Personally, I pretty much agree with him. A player should look out for himself first, then worry about the fans. For the most part, the fans won't be there 20 years later, but the money you made will be. That said, there's no good reason for a player to be an *******, but the players really don't owe the fans anything. It's a job, same as any other.

dpbyron
11-03-2003, 02:16 PM
"I'd like to hear what question he was asked and what his complete answer was."

No kidding. The way the media twist words around, I'd like to hear it directly from him.

FanOf14
11-03-2003, 02:18 PM
I, too, would like to hear/read he full question and answer. I have tried looking it up on Google, but haven't been able to find it. Does anyone have a link to the full Q & A?

dickallen15
11-03-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Personally, I pretty much agree with him. A player should look out for himself first, then worry about the fans. For the most part, the fans won't be there 20 years later, but the money you made will be. That said, there's no good reason for a player to be an *******, but the players really don't owe the fans anything. It's a job, same as any other.

The fans are your customers. They ultimately pay your salary. If you play a game where the average salary is $2.5 million a year, I think you owe the fans a heck of a lot. 100% effort which was supposedly the last part of Ozzie's statement , he didn't live by either. In today's paper, he said he usually played hard. Usually is obviously not 100%.

Irishsox1
11-03-2003, 02:23 PM
I always thought that Ozzie's comment was in the middle of a war with the once weak players union going after the big bad owners. The strike of '94 pissed the fans off, but it made players like A-Rod, Jeter, Giambi and many others very, very rich, which is what the players wanted. Ozzie should have said "The stike is between the players and owners, the fans are left out in the cold."

Paulwny
11-03-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
In today's paper, he said he usually played hard. Usually is obviously not 100%.

He's the only player I ever saw get tagged out by the "hidden ball trick", he never kept his head in the game.
I sure hope he's changed.

bestkosher
11-03-2003, 02:27 PM
back during the mid 90's the white sox hosted sweetheart night which involved kissing contests (which i won), and other things such as TONY AND TINAS WEDDING. to which ozzie replied, "people do not need to see that stuff."

34 Inch Stick
11-03-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Personally, I pretty much agree with him. A player should look out for himself first, then worry about the fans. For the most part, the fans won't be there 20 years later, but the money you made will be. That said, there's no good reason for a player to be an *******, but the players really don't owe the fans anything. It's a job, same as any other.

It is ironic that you should say this when, 20 years later, Ozzie's hire is based heavily upon his percieved connection with White Sox fans.

batmanZoSo
11-03-2003, 02:34 PM
Folks, that quote is an abomination to journalism.

It's so typical of this stupid, stupid town to do something like that to a Sox player. Mark Grace could've said the same thing and we'd never f###n know it.

CubKilla
11-03-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
It is ironic that you should say this when, 20 years later, Ozzie's hire is based heavily upon his percieved connection with White Sox fans.

I think only the die-hard Sox fans with chips on their shoulders over '94 (like me) remember this comment from Ozzie.

Bandwagon White Sox fans can't remember the last time the Sox won the Division, let alone one sound-byte from Ozzie Guillen 9 years ago.

idseer
11-03-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
The fans are your customers. They ultimately pay your salary. If you play a game where the average salary is $2.5 million a year, I think you owe the fans a heck of a lot. 100% effort which was supposedly the last part of Ozzie's statement , he didn't live by either. In today's paper, he said he usually played hard. Usually is obviously not 100%.

absolutely ridiculous! tha owners have a product which IS the players and the fans are the owner's customers. the players owe nothing more than playing the game. doesn't even have to be with 100% effort!
do you give 100% effort at your job? anyone who answers they do is a liar.
the players do what they do and the owners pay them an agreed upon amount. period!

and trying to catch ozzie on the use of the word 'usually' is pretty limp.

SoxxoS
11-03-2003, 04:22 PM
The players don't OWE the fans anything...

Let's look at this from an economic standpoint.

Somebody mentioned salaries. "The fans pay the players salaries." True, to a point. If there are fans that don't like what Ozzie said, don't go to the games. If it is an overwelming majority who feel this way, it will show in the players contracts. You pay to see highly talented individuals to play a game. But that is not all you pay for when going to a game. You get the atmosphere of the ballgame, you get the memories of going, the concessions AND the actual product. Not just the game.

It is a tradeoff. Players get paid, and the fans get the 4 things stated above. The players can do what they want. If they want to say things like that, or blatently not give 100% every play, less people will go, which will drive their salaries down, which will give them the incentive to play harder.

cwsox
11-03-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
I think only the die-hard Sox fans with chips on their shoulders over '94 (like me) remember this comment from Ozzie.

Bandwagon White Sox fans can't remember the last time the Sox won the Division, let alone one sound-byte from Ozzie Guillen 9 years ago.


CK, exactly right.

batmanZoSo
11-03-2003, 04:40 PM
The fact is, everybody pays everybody's salary.

Every time I watch a game, go to a game, or buy a sox hat, I'm chipping in to the Frank Thomas fund.

I work part time at the post office, and my checks come directly from the government. But Frank pays taxes (big time I'm sure), so he's chipping to the batmanZoSo fund--which is a joint charity effort headed by Adam West and Jimmy Page. ::rim shot::

Soxxo, I agree with you. I don't care for players that don't care about the fans, but that's their choice. As long as you play well, I don't give a crap. But we get a lot of enjoyment from baseball, and it's worth whatever we pay. It must be because so many millions of people pay outrages prices for beer and tickets and parking and tshirts, and whatever.....

They don't owe us anything. As far as I'm concerned, we're even. Frank and Ozzie don't have to raise my future kids or eat Thanksgiving with me. Just play well and make me happy. And I'll pay.

FanOf14
11-03-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
I think only the die-hard Sox fans with chips on their shoulders over '94 (like me) remember this comment from Ozzie.

Bandwagon White Sox fans can't remember the last time the Sox won the Division, let alone one sound-byte from Ozzie Guillen 9 years ago.

I'm not a bandwagon jumper, but I can't remember this quote because at that time I was getting ready for college and didn't pay much attention to baseball when I was a junior and senior in HS. That's why I wish I could see the Q & A that this quote comes from...

jabrch
11-03-2003, 04:53 PM
"Then there's the unfortunate remark that Guillen made about the fans during the 1994 season, when the World Series was canceled on a called strike. When asked about the negative fan reaction, Guillen snapped, "Who needs the fans?" "

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x28-lad1.htm

Unless there is another one that you know of....

DrCrawdad
11-03-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Folks, that quote is an abomination to journalism.

It's so typical of this stupid, stupid town to do something like that to a Sox player. Mark Grace could've said the same thing and we'd never f###n know it.

That's right!

I've been listening to Mac Jerko and Harry the first callers are moaning about that Ozzie quote. GET OVER IT! LET IT GO!

daveeym
11-03-2003, 06:16 PM
This was in numerous articles at the time this one is from a Mike Royko article dated May 12, 1995.

Ozzie Guillen, who plays baseball for the White Sox, is
unhappy with the fans.

Although the strike has ended, he says fans are being
unusually abusive and he doesn't understand their attitude.

"We're human beings," he has said. "And I don't think people
have the right to act with players the way they've been acting. Right now fans are acting like we owe them something. We don't owe
anybody anything."

That wasn't very tactful of Guillen, with players and owners
trying to win back the hearts and the attention of their customers.

But Guillen isn't entirely wrong. The players owe the fans
nothing except, as he said, "an honest effort."

I suppose I'm a baseball fan, although I could live quite
happily without seeing another game. When the players went on
strike, I didn't share the weepy view that it was a tragic
unraveling of the fabric of American life.

batmanZoSo
11-03-2003, 07:31 PM
What's with the cliffhanger, davey? You can't read half a Royko column.

Speaking of Royko, I read his compilation "One More Time" and there might have been one mention of the Sox in the whole collection. Actually, it might have been a few Palehoser's names popping up in either a Payton or a Jordan retirement column where he talks to that studs guy and lists the great sports heroes we've had. But he wrote about the cubs quite a bit for a general interest guy. I know he was primarily a cub fan, but it just figures that he was. He was read all over the country and everyone got to experience his romanticized cub prose a few times a year. He couldnt' have been a sox fan could he have? NoooOOOooo. Just yet another case of the cubs benefitting from national attention and the Sox getting blanked.

RedPinStripes
11-03-2003, 07:43 PM
LET IT GO!!!!!!!!!!! ****!

Lip Man 1
11-03-2003, 08:51 PM
With respect this is the ENTIRE quote from Dan Helpingstine’s book Through Hope And Despair (page 214)

“In May 1995 Sox shortstop Ozzie Guillen let loose with his famous line ‘we don’t owe the fans anything.’ Guillen was angry over racial slurs thrown at Frank Thomas by fans in Toronto and residual fan resentment about the strike.

Guillen was right that racial taunting is not acceptable under any circumstances and goes double when fans think they can do anything they want just because they paid for a ticket. The trouble is that we live in a sound-bite society. The Sun-Times ran a headline across the top of the front page with a picture of a perturbed looking Guillen right next to it. In big bold letters it read GUILLEN: WE DON’T OWE FANS ANYTHING. In smaller letters underneath, the paper stated, ‘Sox shortstop upset at ballpark backlash.’

On the back page the headline was repeated in the same bold letters accompanied by a picture of an unhappy looking Guillen. It also stated that ‘Sox shortstop says players don’t deserve backlash from the strike.’ On the inside two pages from the back was a short story written by Dan Bickley. Catcher Mike LaValliere was also upset about a fan letter addressing him as ‘scum of the earth’ that also included a burnt Sox schedule.

However how many Sun-Times readers remember what Guillen was actually upset about or the nasty letter that LaValliere received? Did Guillen have a point? Or did fans just remember the quote in the headline that made Guillen look like another one of those spoiled players?”

With appreciation to Dan for allowing this small reprint

Lip

ShoelessFred
11-04-2003, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
"...except to give 100% every day."

Puts a little better spin on it I think.

THIS IS THE REST OF THE QUOTE THAT EVERYONE FORGETS ABOUT.

batmanZoSo
11-04-2003, 12:47 AM
Lip, Yes! I knew I was forgetting something about the incident. Ozzie was justifiably p----d off and he was taken so out of context it's a joke. It makes you wonder how much that one thing hurt the Sox as a franchise with attendance and all. The fans were so alienated and dejected in 94, then they see on the cover of the Sun-Times "We don't owe the fans anything." I guarantee you there are some people out there who still haven't been back to Comiskey just because of those two things combined.

And even though he said "we don't owe...," you know it's just Ozzie not using his best choice of words. Even so, it was irresponsible journalism, if journalism at all.

If they did an expose on Sox hitters' bat preferences, it would read something like....

Konerko hates blacks
The Sox infielder instead prefers natural wood tone bats to the popular painted ones

I read that book by the way and it was pretty good. In fact I read the whole thing without stopping in an hour and a half or so. It's nice to read the TRUTH about Sox matter occasionally, and DH is very good at what he does. It was a great history lesson to read it. Anyone who hasn't read Through Hope and Despair should do so.

gosox41
11-04-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by poorme
I'd like to hear what question he was asked and what his complete answer was.


Do you mean the media might acutally misquote athletes to sell papers?

LuvSox
11-04-2003, 07:59 AM
Let it go already. Whatever the circumstances were, he was a young man when he said it.

Whoever said Ozzie didn't have his head in the game didn't watch him play very often.

dickallen15
11-04-2003, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by idseer
absolutely ridiculous! tha owners have a product which IS the players and the fans are the owner's customers. the players owe nothing more than playing the game. doesn't even have to be with 100% effort!
do you give 100% effort at your job? anyone who answers they do is a liar.
the players do what they do and the owners pay them an agreed upon amount. period!

and trying to catch ozzie on the use of the word 'usually' is pretty limp.

if you are getting paid $2 million a year , the least you can do is bust your ass down the line on a groundball to short. Ozzie didn't do that, most of the current White Sox didn't do that. The players don't owe 100% effort? That's rich. People don't flock to the urinal because of the Tribune company, its because of the players. Its like acting like a jerk to a customer of your company. The customer goes somewhere else. Based on what you said, you didn't owe that customer anything, you didn't owe him any effort or courtesy. That is crap. You should get fired. When you sign your contract you owe your paying customers a lot. There is a conduct code, heck the D-Backs even make their players sign autographs.

anewman35
11-04-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
People don't flock to the urinal because of the Tribune company, its because of the players.

But fans would flock there no matter who the players were. It's the team's responsability to try to get the best players possible, but the players have no other responsability to the fans, only their employers. The teams play the players, not the fans.

Let's put it this way: you work for a company that makes things that Wal-Mart buys (and then sells). You have to do what your boss says, he's paying you. If Wal-Mart called you up and told you to do something, you'd tell them to go to hell, even though they are the ones paying your boss. Why should players be any different?

dickallen15
11-04-2003, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
But fans would flock there no matter who the players were. It's the team's responsability to try to get the best players possible, but the players have no other responsability to the fans, only their employers. The teams play the players, not the fans.

Let's put it this way: you work for a company that makes things that Wal-Mart buys (and then sells). You have to do what your boss says, he's paying you. If Wal-Mart called you up and told you to do something, you'd tell them to go to hell, even though they are the ones paying your boss. Why should players be any different?

Then why do you boo players? Shouldn't that energy be directed at the owner? When Royce Clayton was here hitting under .100, people were criticizing him, according to you, they should criticize the owner. Players have no responsibility to fans? Its a good thing MLB doesn't agree with you, or the league would be folded.

anewman35
11-04-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Then why do you boo players? Shouldn't that energy be directed at the owner? When Royce Clayton was here hitting under .100, people were criticizing him, according to you, they should criticize the owner. Players have no responsibility to fans? Its a good thing MLB doesn't agree with you, or the league would be folded.

It's fun to boo players, that's why. And it's a free country, there's freedom of speech, people can criticize whoever they want (and look at this board - they do!). If a player wants to care about the fans, fine, but the player is under no obligation to do to - the player's contract is with the team to play baseball. Nowhere in there is there a clause saying they have to be nice to fans...

Dan H
11-04-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Lip, Yes! I knew I was forgetting something about the incident. Ozzie was justifiably p----d off and he was taken so out of context it's a joke. It makes you wonder how much that one thing hurt the Sox as a franchise with attendance and all. The fans were so alienated and dejected in 94, then they see on the cover of the Sun-Times "We don't owe the fans anything." I guarantee you there are some people out there who still haven't been back to Comiskey just because of those two things combined.

And even though he said "we don't owe...," you know it's just Ozzie not using his best choice of words. Even so, it was irresponsible journalism, if journalism at all.

If they did an expose on Sox hitters' bat preferences, it would read something like....

Konerko hates blacks
The Sox infielder instead prefers natural wood tone bats to the popular painted ones

I read that book by the way and it was pretty good. In fact I read the whole thing without stopping in an hour and a half or so. It's nice to read the TRUTH about Sox matter occasionally, and DH is very good at what he does. It was a great history lesson to read it. Anyone who hasn't read Through Hope and Despair should do so.

Thanks for the compliment on the book. For the record, when I asked Guillen about that comment, he didn't back down from it one bit. He said Frank Thomas took the racial taunting very hard, and Guillen felt he should say something. Mostly he felt that fans went over the line in that case.

Secondly, Guillen said he still had a great deal of affection for Sox fans, and he had no bitterness regarding his time in Chicago. Anyone can take that or leave it, I guess. All I can say is that I enjoyed my interview with him. He talked about his time with the Sox with a great deal of passion.

I have a feeling we will have a love/hate relationship with Guillen which won't be a bad thing. After decades of drab managers, it will be good to have one with a personality.

34 Inch Stick
11-04-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla

Bandwagon White Sox fans can't remember the last time the Sox won the Division, let alone one sound-byte from Ozzie Guillen 9 years ago. [/B]

Are there any bandwagon White Sox fans?

crector
11-04-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Are there any bandwagon White Sox fans?


When in the post-Reinsdorf era, the Sox go to the World Series for the first time since 1959, there will be bandwagon Sox fans just as there were bandwagon Cubs fans this year.

dickallen15
11-04-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
It's fun to boo players, that's why. And it's a free country, there's freedom of speech, people can criticize whoever they want (and look at this board - they do!). If a player wants to care about the fans, fine, but the player is under no obligation to do to - the player's contract is with the team to play baseball. Nowhere in there is there a clause saying they have to be nice to fans...

Actually, in many there are.

idseer
11-04-2003, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
if you are getting paid $2 million a year , the least you can do is bust your ass down the line on a groundball to short. Ozzie didn't do that, most of the current White Sox didn't do that. The players don't owe 100% effort? That's rich. People don't flock to the urinal because of the Tribune company, its because of the players. Its like acting like a jerk to a customer of your company. The customer goes somewhere else. Based on what you said, you didn't owe that customer anything, you didn't owe him any effort or courtesy. That is crap. You should get fired. When you sign your contract you owe your paying customers a lot. There is a conduct code, heck the D-Backs even make their players sign autographs.

do you know what 100% means? you never answered my question ... do you give 100% at your job ALL THE TIME? until you face this simple truth it's a waste of time talking to you. ozzie gave as much effort as anyone in baseball.

it doesn't matter WHAT a player is paid. he plays the way he plays and if the fans don't like it TOUGH BEANS! like water seeking it's own level, the way a player plays will always determine what he's worth.
your whole argument reeks of nonsense. you hate ozzie for some personal reason ... fine. stop exhibiting your hate to everyone else.

batmanZoSo
11-04-2003, 09:49 AM
Nice to "meet" you. I knew you wrote columns here, but I didn't know you posted. I'm 21, so anything before 1990 was a mystery to me. And it was fun reliving my Sox infancy with the early 90s teams.

Guillen's gonna be judged differently from any other manager we could bring in. We have to really size up the team he's given when this offseason is done, then set our expectations. You're right it's gonna be a love/hate relationship, but really it's like that already. Some of us are thrilled to death over his hiring; some are sure this will be a disaster. The point is the vast majority have strong feelings about him already, so they won't be swayed easily. I said this is gonna be fun regardless of what happens. Of course it won't be if we're 65-97 like some people predict, but we're not gonna be that bad. I never bought the "dismantling" theory. We'll be in the running for first again and Guillen may give the players the emotional boost they didn't have at the beginning of the last three years.

Some people are worried that he has no experience managing a bullpen...well, he might not have a bullpen to work with. I don't see us re-signing Gordon and Sullivan (nor do I want to pay 8 million for the two), so KW's gonna have to be aggressive and maybe, just maybe for once, go after a free agent setup/closer like Hasegawa.

Really, that's the key to our success next year. Who's managing won't make a lick of difference unless we have a dependable stopping crew in the bullpen. Everyone knows that if we hadn't traded Keith Foulke and he had a similar year for us as he did for Oakland, we'd have won the division. So address the bullpen first and foremost, then as always, hope that Garland or any other young starter has his big breakout year finally.

dickallen15
11-04-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by idseer
do you know what 100% means? you never answered my question ... do you give 100% at your job ALL THE TIME? until you face this simple truth it's a waste of time talking to you. ozzie gave as much effort as anyone in baseball.

it doesn't matter WHAT a player is paid. he plays the way he plays and if the fans don't like it TOUGH BEANS! like water seeking it's own level, the way a player plays will always determine what he's worth.
your whole argument reeks of nonsense. you hate ozzie for some personal reason ... fine. stop exhibiting your hate to everyone else.

When I played baseball, I went 100% all the time. Many major league players do. Running out groundballs is something this team has not done for several years. Go down behind homeplate and ask a scout. They can't get good times on White Sox players from home to first because they jake it down there. This makes it a lot easier on opposing infielders. If you have a reputation for going all out, it may cause a fielder to panic and fumble a ball every now and then. Ozzie used to jog down the line all the time. It got so bad Hawk called him out on it. Phil Rogers column today gives a little different slant on Ozzie. Bust your butt in the field, run out grounders, thats not asking a heck of a lot. I don't hate Ozzie, I just know a few things about him. I hope he does well. I just really doubt it.

JKryl
11-04-2003, 10:12 AM
Actually, I think the players owe the fans everything. The fans are the ones who put up with the stupid comments, the lack of hustle, the mid season slumps, and the constant failure to achieve year after year, while still shelling out $100 to $200 per game to watch the Dan Pasquas masquerading as major league players. Or, worst yet, the Terry Bevingtons and Jerry Manuels, and the Ozzie Guillens masquerading as major league managers. Face it, the only reason, and I do mean only reason Reinsdorf hired the ungrateful bastard is because he came cheap. The same reason he hired the last experiment named Jerry, no experience = small paycheck. Reinsdorf figures that he now has a 3 or 4 year grace period, and Kenney figures he now has a scapegoat. As to whether the new "enthusiasm" will help, we'll see, but I don't remember any Mike Ditka types managing either of the teams in this years series. What we need is a manager with savvy, and Ozzie has none.

idseer
11-04-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by JKryl
Actually, I think the players owe the fans everything. The fans are the ones who put up with the stupid comments, the lack of hustle, the mid season slumps, and the constant failure to achieve year after year, while still shelling out $100 to $200 per game to watch the Dan Pasquas masquerading as major league players. Or, worst yet, the Terry Bevingtons and Jerry Manuels, and the Ozzie Guillens masquerading as major league managers. Face it, the only reason, and I do mean only reason Reinsdorf hired the ungrateful bastard is because he came cheap. The same reason he hired the last experiment named Jerry, no experience = small paycheck. Reinsdorf figures that he now has a 3 or 4 year grace period, and Kenney figures he now has a scapegoat. As to whether the new "enthusiasm" will help, we'll see, but I don't remember any Mike Ditka types managing either of the teams in this years series. What we need is a manager with savvy, and Ozzie has none.

the players do what they do. your choice to shell out your money. paying to watch and then expecting them to do what YOU want them to do is cart before the horse. it doesn't work that way. if they don't live up to your standards then stop going. they don't need to do ANY thing special for you!