PDA

View Full Version : Ordonez & Konerko for Soriano & Johnson?


thezeker
11-01-2003, 05:48 PM
Just thought I would try this possibility and see how everyone would react.

Would you trade Maggs & Konerko to the Yankees for Soriano & Nick Johnson?

If KW could pull this one off I would nominate him for Executive of this Century so far!!!!

Just in the terms of the money that would be saved this would be awesome. I would think at least 15 million. Hopefully a good starter and shortstop could be had.

I expect that many would hate to see Maggs go but I am not one of them. Besides the double plays the thing that bothers me about Maggs is he's so streaky. He hits .800 for about 2 weeks and then hits .200 the next 5 weeks. During those 5 weeks he is not much help to the team. He puts up nice numbers but he is not a clutch hitter who can carry the team. If we can dump the 14 million and pick up someone who can help us now let's do it!

Johnson and Thomas at first base sounds good to me with Thomas or Johnson DH when the other is playing. What strikes me is that the Yankees might actually find this appealing. Maggs would solidify their outfield and PK at first base would work to alternate with Giambi over there.

What do you think????

MRKARNO
11-01-2003, 05:58 PM
I would do it in a heartbeat, but would the yanks? Probably not

Dadawg_77
11-01-2003, 05:58 PM
More and more I believe Mags is gone after this year. The system will force him leave not to his fault or the Sox fault. But the Sox getting two players they can hang on to for three+ years for a guy they will lose in one is a good deal.

Joel Perez
11-01-2003, 05:59 PM
Hmmm...

Ordonez who had a good year...
Konerko who had a lousy year....

for

Soriano...started fast but faded very quickly, as well as a dismal WS...
Johnson...good 1B, underrated LH.

I stated before...you never mess with chemistry...see the 83 Sox and Jerry Koosman for that fact.

The only way this would work is:

1) For the Yankees, if Giambi is totally healthy...
2) For the Sox, if they had a backup plan for Ordonez.

I don't like it, although you could re-sign Carl Everett to plug him in at RF for a two year contract, if he were to buy into that, or someone else of that caliber.

You also face the fact that Joe Borchard may not be ready to surplant Ordonez in RF. Jeremy Reed may or may not be ready either; he may benefit for one more year in the minors--experience helps.

Soriano...boy I don't know. He looked so promising, but now he's a wild card. He could be the next Sammy Sosa with speed, or the next Ty Griffin.

Pass. Don't mess with chemistry...sign Mags to a 3-year extension.

batmanZoSo
11-01-2003, 06:48 PM
The yankees simply wouldn't do that. It would be a miracle if we got Soriano for Maggs, let alone they take Konerko off our hands and give us Johnson.

I'm for trading Maggs if we can get Soriano or a comparable talent for him. If we give him an extension, that's even better because then Lee's gone.

chisoxt
11-01-2003, 06:50 PM
How about Konerko for Weaver????

Daver
11-01-2003, 07:05 PM
Where are you intending to play Soriano?

He can't play second,he lacks the arm for CF,let alone right,and they already have a LFer.

SouthSideHitman
11-01-2003, 07:23 PM
Man, I love Maggs, but this move would almost certainly be better for the Sox as a whole both in terms of talent and salary. That being said, I doubt that they yankees would do a deal like this with the Sox without at least a coupla prospects from us and us taking Weaver off their hands. But I believe that if this is doable, then Kenny will get it done. He's persistent and generally gets about what he's looking for. Remember, he got Colon, Alomar and Everett for Biddle, Leifer, Osuna, Ring and a song. I think that given the Sox' financial restraints this offeseason, KW will pull of some sort of major deal like this and surprise us (except me).

SoxxoS
11-01-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Where are you intending to play Soriano?

He can't play second,he lacks the arm for CF,let alone right,and they already have a LFer.

Am I missing why he can't play second? We haven't signed anyone to play there yet...

Daver
11-01-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Am I missing why he can't play second? We haven't signed anyone to play there yet...

Defenseively he is much worse than D'Angelo Jiminez.

wassagstdu
11-01-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
It would be a miracle if we got Soriano for Maggs ...
I'm for trading Maggs if we can get Soriano or a comparable talent for him.
You people are totally nuts.
Sorry, that's a little too general. What I mean to say is that Maggs is the only good player the Sox have and Soriano is a mediocre second baseman who would hardly be noticed except that he has a little pop for a second baseman .

thezeker
11-01-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by wassagstdu
You people are totally nuts.
Sorry, that's a little too general. What I mean to say is that Maggs is the only good player the Sox have and Soriano is a mediocre second baseman who would hardly be noticed except that he has a little pop for a second baseman .

1. 39 homeruns is more than a little pop and I think he also has very good speed!

2. Reality- With our budget Maggs is not woth 14 million. He will hurt this team if he stays.

3.Maggs will be gone after this year regardless and we will get nothing. Now is the time to move him!!

Nuts. If you call someone who looks at a situation realistically and tries to come to a conclusion that actually could happen rather than a pipedream I guess we are all nuts!!!

JDP
11-01-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by Daver
..he lacks the arm for CF

First off, your CF is your OF w/ the 'weakest' arm.

Secondly, unless Soriano throws underhanded, there is no way "he lacks the arm for CF." I'm willing to bet that with his raw talent alone, he would have a better arm than 25-50% of all CF's on MLB rosters. (see: Johnny Damon).

Lastly, this trade would be excellent for the Sox talent-wise, defensively and financially. You'd be trading away $20,000,000 from the 2004 roster and only picking up, with Soriano/Johnson combined, still only around $1,000,000 -- not to mention the fact that neither are arbitration-eligible for 3+ years. More production, cheaper cost, $20 mil to throw at SP/SS or whatever -- it's a no-brainer.

Daver
11-01-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by JDP
First off, your CF is your OF w/ the 'weakest' arm.



No that would be your LFer.

He doesn't have the range to play second base,and you want him roaming around in CF?

Have you ever heard of being defensively strong up trhe middle?

Don't give me dollar amounts,because that has nothing to do with the point.

batmanZoSo
11-01-2003, 09:19 PM
I would put Soriano in left. Anyone can play out there.

StepsInSC
11-01-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
I stated before...you never mess with chemistry...see the 83 Sox and Jerry Koosman for that fact.

Pass. Don't mess with chemistry...sign Mags to a 3-year extension.

What chemistry? Its only opinions but I think most would agree that chemistry and this team have been as separate as good-smelling-fragrances and monkey's butts.

RKMeibalane
11-01-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I would put Soriano in left. Anyone can play out there.

If that's the case, the Sox can stick Konerko out there next season, so Frank can move back to first, and Lee can DH.

Brian26
11-02-2003, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I would put Soriano in left. Anyone can play out there.

:pudge

Your WHAT hurts?

crector
11-02-2003, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by Joel Perez


I stated before...you never mess with chemistry...see the 83 Sox and Jerry Koosman for that fact.


Pass. Don't mess with chemistry...sign Mags to a 3-year extension.


Chemistry is grossly overrated. Teams where the players mainly hated each other have often done better than teams where they mostly like each other. As for the '83 Sox, they were a fluke.

longshot7
11-02-2003, 04:57 AM
I've said it before, I'll say it again - anyone that wants to trade Maggs is an idiot. He's the best player on our team.

RichH55
11-02-2003, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by longshot7
I've said it before, I'll say it again - anyone that wants to trade Maggs is an idiot. He's the best player on our team.

Which is great in a vacuum.....

Business, Economics, and future still plays into things though


It's not a question of wanting him dealt, its a question of whether it makes sense

14 million on a 60-70 million payroll is alot.

The legitimate chance to lose him for nothing after the season looms as well

Still qualify me as an idiot, especially if we could get good return(which is all an assumption mind you, but you get the point)

Gumshoe
11-02-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by longshot7
I've said it before, I'll say it again - anyone that wants to trade Maggs is an idiot. He's the best player on our team.

I wish the other people could realize this. Longshot, I wouldn't trade Ordonez for BOTH of those guys! You don't trade a guy who is GUARANTEED to go .300-30-100, who is 29, who is arguably the best RF in the game . This board and others like it are insane. Let's get a winning atmosphere --- that definitely means NOT trading our best player, or trading a guy who is a solid guy in the clubhouse that is at his all time low in value, but can put up .300-30-100 numbers too. Stop this nonsense about getting rid of Ordonez, and stop it NOW, people.

Gumshoe

OEO Magglio
11-02-2003, 10:40 AM
Gumshoe, I love maggs as much as anyone, but the fact is he's going to make 14 million dollars, with the sox budget he almost needs to be traded unless somebody like the mets will take koch off our hands, and some team will take PK, Maggs is the best hitter on this team, but the sox would be able to fill more holes, with 14 million.

jabrch
11-02-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Where are you intending to play Soriano?

He can't play second,he lacks the arm for CF,let alone right,and they already have a LFer.

He's a better option than we have right now at 2B (assuming Robby is gone?). And he wouldn't have the worst arm ever of a CF. Certainly better than Lofton who we had. Can't play the position worse than Rowand/Harris/Miles, and might outhit all 3 combined.

I find a place for him - certainly if it enable me to get rid of GIDPK.

Think about it this way - that frees up 19mm of salary. That's enough to sign a top tier FA or even two. That could get us Milwood and Castillo or Pettitte and Stewart or even Vlad and Ponson...

Where do I sign?

ssang
11-02-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I wish the other people could realize this. Longshot, I wouldn't trade Ordonez for BOTH of those guys! You don't trade a guy who is GUARANTEED to go .300-30-100, who is 29, who is arguably the best RF in the game . This board and others like it are insane. Let's get a winning atmosphere --- that definitely means NOT trading our best player, or trading a guy who is a solid guy in the clubhouse that is at his all time low in value, but can put up .300-30-100 numbers too. Stop this nonsense about getting rid of Ordonez, and stop it NOW, people.

Gumshoe


You wouldn't take both of them for Maggs!?!? With the money Maggs is making this deal would be a blessing for us. We'd be lucky to pull this one off. Now I like Maggs....he's great. But if we can get a LH solid hitter (Johnosn) and an additional superstar (YES Soriano is a superstar and he's young as hell, and he has speed!!!) for Maggs or Maggs and Konerko....I would do this trade in less than a heartbeat. In fact, I would probably die on the spot from being too overjoyed.

Now in reality, the Yankees would never do this. 1) Because this deal would be heavily in our favor. 2) The Yankees are not complete morons, in fact, they're pretty damn smart.

I can't see how you woluldn't like this deal. C'mon.

Paulwny
11-02-2003, 01:20 PM
Out of the 3, Matsui, Williams and Soriano, Soriano has the most speed and the strongest arm, although it's erratic. he also appears to be a slow learner, Randolph constantly works with him yet, he often makes the same mistakes. These are the reasons they're thinking of moving him to cf or rf. With the retirement of Clemens and the uncertanty of Pettite and Wells, Soriano will only be traded for a teams #1 or #2 starter.

Why would the yanks want Maggs? He'll be a free agent at the end of the year. The'd be better off signing Vlad or Sheffield for ~$14 mil with a 2-3 yr contract and not lose Soriano.

Why would the yanks want Konerko over Weaver. They'd also like to see if they can get him out of his pitching funk rather then trade him for a player they have no place to play since they have Giambi and Johnson.

JDP
11-02-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I wish the other people could realize this. Longshot, I wouldn't trade Ordonez for BOTH of those guys! You don't trade a guy who is GUARANTEED to go .300-30-100, who is 29, who is arguably the best RF in the game

Not to nit-pick, but you did use the word "guaranteed": 29 HRs, 99 RBIs in '03.

Magglio will be 30 in January, costs the Sox $14.0 large in '04, will be a FA after '04 and has the highest trade value of any of the Sox players. "Insane" is hanging onto players because you love them and you don't look at the economics and structure of the game and of the team that you follow. I'll stand on record as saying that, if the Sox could get something great and cheap in return, I'm on the trade-Magglio side of the fence.

Just looking at the numbers, you wouldn't trade 30 HRs, 100 RBIs, .300AVG costing you $14.0 million and not guarenteed to be here after 2004 for 50 HRs, 160 RBIs and a .280 AVG, costing you under $2.0 million and guaranteed to be here for 3+ years?

BTW, w/o question, the best RF in the game: Guerrero.

The best point in being this: noone on this board is the Sox GM or more importantly, should be the Sox GM. We by definition of being here are White Sox fans -- you don't want a fan running the show and hanging onto someone because they love the guy or are a huge fan of the guy. So, don't get your feathers in a ruffle because fans are throwing around ideas and opinions of how they think that their team could do better. Pro-trading Magglio people have their opinions and reasons as do Anti-trading Magglio people. Remember: both sides are Sox fans and want the Sox do be optimized -- there is just a degree of difference in regards to keeping/trading Magglio. Agree to disagree, but don't call people insane.

Deadguy
11-02-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I wish the other people could realize this. Longshot, I wouldn't trade Ordonez for BOTH of those guys! You don't trade a guy who is GUARANTEED to go .300-30-100, who is 29, who is arguably the best RF in the game . This board and others like it are insane. Let's get a winning atmosphere --- that definitely means NOT trading our best player, or trading a guy who is a solid guy in the clubhouse that is at his all time low in value, but can put up .300-30-100 numbers too. Stop this nonsense about getting rid of Ordonez, and stop it NOW, people.

Gumshoe

He is the best player on the team, but the problem is, he may leave us after 2004.

I don't want to see him traded for prospects, since I want to see the Sox be competitive in 2004, and subtracting Mags and getting nothing but prospects will end up as a downgrade for an already borderline capable playoff team.

Subtract Magglio, and get impact players (such as Soriano), who make much less, then it becomes a good move.

If we can't move Magglio for an impact player, keep him for 2004 and risk losing him for nothing, since I believe his production for one year is worth more than prospects at this point.

batmanZoSo
11-02-2003, 03:42 PM
You can't say anything around here without someone nitpicking at it. Of course KONERKO can't play left field. Nor a catcher who was 7 or 8 years removed from major knee surgery. Soriano's got speed and you don't need an arm out there (see Shannon Stewart). I don't see how Soriano couldn't become adequate in left with a little dedicaton. My god, Lee is almost adequate...some would say he is .

jabrch
11-02-2003, 04:27 PM
I love Mags.

Next year, he is a FA. He likely leaves (since we may not be able to pay him 10+mm per). Why not get 1 young all-star 2B and an above average 1B + unload one or two poor contracts?

Past the emotion of it, why is this not a good baseball move? Doesn't Soriano produce similarly to Mags in terms of quality?

Chisoxfn
11-02-2003, 05:47 PM
I would do this deal in a heartbeat. This is such a no-brainer in my mind. People can say economics doesn't matter, but it doesn't make sense paying Maggs over 20% of the total payroll. No team can be productive in those type of situations.

Mix that with the fact that I personally believe SOriano is an upgrade over Maggs and that I happen to like Nick Johnson a whole lot...its a most definate move.

Sox can then really do somethings with the rotation, bullpen and shortstop and you bring in Everett at a one year deal worth about 5 mill...giving Reed some time in AAA and then he can come up.

Soriano is a great athlete and would have enough range in CF. I actually think he could become a pretty decent CF.

The Yanks don't do that deal, sweeten the pot with Joe Borchard and I think you get them listening. Borchard could develop into a good CF, which is what they are looking for and the Sox have a future outfield of Lee/Soriano/Reed ready.

gosox41
11-02-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
More and more I believe Mags is gone after this year. The system will force him leave not to his fault or the Sox fault. But the Sox getting two players they can hang on to for three+ years for a guy they will lose in one is a good deal.

I for one think if Magglio survices this year with the Sox, he'll sign another extension. The reason is baseball economics aren't what they used to be. It's possible if Magglio has a similar 2004 season as he did in 2003 no one will pay him anywhere near $14 mill per, let alone give him a long term deal.

The economics of baseball suck right now for the players. Some are expecting Vlad to get $10-12 mill. per year. No way does Ordonez get more then that and likely less.



As for the trade talk, no way does it happen. Why would the Yankees make that trade?

Bob

SoxxoS
11-03-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
As for the trade talk, no way does it happen. Why would the Yankees make that trade?

A)They are running out of patience with Soriano
B)Giambi can play first base, and they can sign a Fullmer-type to DH
C)They need a RF, b/c Karim Garcia isn't cutting it...

Dadawg_77
11-03-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I for one think if Magglio survices this year with the Sox, he'll sign another extension. The reason is baseball economics aren't what they used to be. It's possible if Magglio has a similar 2004 season as he did in 2003 no one will pay him anywhere near $14 mill per, let alone give him a long term deal.

The economics of baseball suck right now for the players. Some are expecting Vlad to get $10-12 mill. per year. No way does Ordonez get more then that and likely less.



As for the trade talk, no way does it happen. Why would the Yankees make that trade?

Bob

That is exactly why I see Mags leaving. I don't think the Sox can or will offer Mags extension worth 14 million per. Thus why would he take a pay cut to sign an extension? For the Sox to get MAgs to agree to an extension they will have to over pay for a player who is probably past his prime.

Paulwny
11-03-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
A)They are running out of patience with Soriano
B)Giambi can play first base, and they can sign a Fullmer-type to DH
C)They need a RF, b/c Karim Garcia isn't cutting it...


A) They are only impatient about his play at 2nd base, they could go after Castillo
B) Johnson has a very good glove, Giambi will do more dhing
C) Soriano moves to rf or cf