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MarkV
11-01-2003, 12:33 PM
I'm probably gonna get torched for this, but I have to make my point. This is more of a response to the Thomas Myths thread. Ask anyone in the Sox front office, any of the Sox beat writers, or anyone else in the know about the White Sox and they'll tell you that Frank staying is the last thing that the Sox wanted. I'm not really gonna get into the statistics as much, but more so the business side of it. The Sox will not spend more than $60 mil, so Frank's $6 mil contract will take up 10% of the payroll. With all the money guaranteed to other guys (guys that you can't move because they had bad years and no one will wanna pay them that much), you can forget about the Sox going after the winningest pitcher in baseball since 1996 (Andy Pettitte) or Kevin Millwood or a top second baseman like Vina or Castillo. A lot of you started to remind me of Shammie fans when you started talking about all the HR's Frank has hit. Along with strikeouts, HR's are the most overrated stats in baseball. Where do HR's get you? They get you 2nd place in the second worst division in baseball. The reason our hitting was so awful this year was because guys kept trying to hit HR's instead of hitting line drives, getting base hits, and moving runners along like they did in 2000. That's why we led the world in popups and double plays. Frank was one of the biggest culprits. Around Aug. 5th or so, Frank made a comment that he was only gonna try to hit HR's and that base hits weren't important and that he could help the team more if he only hit HR's. What happened after that? Frank tanked in the last month and a half. The problem with Frank is that he's too stubborn to change his ways and try to do the little things to win. That rubs off on everyone else. That's why guys like Magglio and Paulie and other guys went away from doing the little things. HR's are nice and all, but they don't win you championships. The Angels, Marlins, and most of the champions throughout history have proven that. I'm not saying that it's all Frank's fault (it was mostly Jerry Manuel's), but at this point in his career, it'd be better for the Sox if he wasn't here. We could use that money to fill holes and upgrade at certain positions. Prepare yourself for the loss of good players and for the Sox to go after mediocre Sidney Ponson. With Jerry Manuel II (Cito) coming and with the state the organization is in, prepare for a miserable 2004 and beyond.

MRKARNO
11-01-2003, 12:35 PM
So if HRs are an overrated stat, does that make OBP, SLG% and OPS underrated stats? Because if it does, Frank seems to be near the top in all of these stats on a yearly basis.

Lip Man 1
11-01-2003, 12:40 PM
FWIW:

Ken Rosenthal of The Sporting News told me a few days ago that the worst case for the Sox would be Colon leaving and Frank staying. He didn't go into details why he felt that way.

Lip

MarkV
11-01-2003, 12:44 PM
Here are your most important stats if you want to have a winning team:

Pos. Players
OBP
AVG w/RISP
RBI
RC/27

SP
ERA
QS
BB/9
IP

RP
ERA
IS
K/BB
Opp. OBP

RKMeibalane
11-01-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by MarkV

I don't have a problem with anything you said. I think you made some good points, and your argument is certainly a valid one. Given that the Sox don't appear to be interested in increasing payroll for next season, it does make sense that they would have wanted to see Frank go elsewhere so that they could save money.

Having said that, if management didn't want him back, then they have only themselves to blame for his being able to stay. They were the ones who included the mutual option years in his contract. Ken Williams implied earlier this week that he would have liked to have seen Frank leave, but when you think about, there wasn't much he could have done about it because of the structure of Thomas' contract.

I think there is something that everyone here can agree on: the Chicago White Sox are extremely short-sighted when it comes to structuring contracts and making deals with players.

Even though Frank struggled in 2002, managment should have realized that he was primed for a much better season in '03, and so, they should not have painted themselves into a corner by giving him the choice of whether he wanted to stay or not.

The same can be said regarding the Konerko disaster. Even though Paulie had a big season in 2002, much of his production came during a five week stretch in June and July. The rest of his numbers were slightly above average. Again, management should have known better than to offer him eight million dollars a year.

Many things need to change if the Sox are to become competitive year in and year out. Chief amongst these things is the fact that the Sox must make better business decisions. They cannot give huge contracts to average players, and they cannot commit to a player like Frank, only to complain when he decides to stick around.

In closing, I would like to offer this point: a number of people have been ripping Frank for staying, calling him selfish, greedy, etc.

To the people in question: it's not Frank you should be upset with. Management is to blame for what happened. Frank was simply abiding by the terms of his contract, which Jerry Reinsdorf offered him.

RKMeibalane
11-01-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
FWIW:

Ken Rosenthal of The Sporting News told me a few days ago that the worst case for the Sox would be Colon leaving and Frank staying. He didn't go into details why he felt that way.

Lip

If that's how they feel, they should not have included the option years in his contract. The Sox did this to themselves. Frank is not to blame for what happened. Period.

MarkV
11-01-2003, 12:54 PM
RK, I agree with both of your posts. If the Sox want to win, they have to follow the models set by the Angels and Marlins. You don't need a huge payroll to win, but you need to be smart with how and where you spend your money, who you keep, and who you get rid of. RE:Keith Foulke for Billy Koch, Kip Wells to Pittsburgh, etc.

MRKARNO
11-01-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
Here are your most important stats if you want to have a winning team:

Pos. Players
OBP
AVG w/RISP
RBI
RC/27


Frank:
OBP: .390 26th MLB 12th AL
AVG w/ RISP: .280 (13 pts higher than reg. avg).
RBI: 105 22nd MLB 12th AL
RC/27: 7.76 15th MLB 7th in AL

And I'll just throw another stat right at ya:

Frank's average with runners on base: .326

And somehow Frank's average with a runner at first was .377

MarkV
11-01-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Frank:
OBP: .390 26th MLB 12th AL
AVG w/ RISP: .280 (13 pts higher than reg. avg).
RBI: 105 22nd MLB 12th AL
RC/27: 7.76 15th MLB 7th in AL

And I'll just throw another stat right at ya:

Frank's average with runners on base: .326

And somehow Frank's average with a runner at first was .377

.280 w/RISP is not good for a #3 hitter who can't advance more bases that the guy who gets the hit behind him. The new manager needs to bat him 6th. Of course, we don't know who we'll have. If we basically have the same guys, he has to be the #6 guy in the order.

TaylorStSox
11-01-2003, 01:38 PM
Frank may be slow, but we have worse baserunners. He was in the top 3 in the AL in OBP for most of the year. The value of a guy that gets on base is immeasurable even if he is slow. Most pitchers, especially young pitchers, will still be concerned.

MRKARNO
11-01-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
.280 w/RISP is not good for a #3 hitter who can't advance more bases that the guy who gets the hit behind him. The new manager needs to bat him 6th. Of course, we don't know who we'll have. If we basically have the same guys, he has to be the #6 guy in the order.

But what about the .326 average with runners on base? If he didnt score in these situations it's because the people behind him didnt get it done. And after him came the DP combo of MAggs and PK for a lot of the year

PaleHoseGeorge
11-01-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
But what about the .326 average with runners on base? If he didnt score in these situations it's because the people behind him didnt get it done. And after him came the DP combo of MAggs and PK for a lot of the year

Word up! The opposing managers were setting up the double-plays by WALKING Frank to get to Maggs and GIDPaul. And yet they still wonder why Frank didn't have a higher average? He got nothing to hit--and took his walks like any good hitter would!

My God, we might as well be talking to the walls around here.

:cityslickers
"Will you shutup! It's been two hours now! He doesn't get it and he'll never get it! Even the cows can program their VCR's!

:)

ssang
11-01-2003, 03:46 PM
Frank Thomas coming back to the White Sox is NOT a good thing for the team. I wish he and his "I'm only going for HR's" ass would have gone elsewhere. My Frank Thomas 2004 prediction..... .244 avg, 33 hr, 85 RBI, and 1,000,000 pop-outs and fly outs!! We really could've used this 6 mil on someone else. This sucks!

MisterB
11-01-2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
The reason our hitting was so awful this year was because guys kept trying to hit HR's instead of hitting line drives, getting base hits, and moving runners along like they did in 2000. That's why we led the world in popups and double plays. Frank was one of the biggest culprits. Around Aug. 5th or so, Frank made a comment that he was only gonna try to hit HR's and that base hits weren't important and that he could help the team more if he only hit HR's.

Here is Thomas' quote:

"I'm at a different point in my career as a hitter," Thomas said Monday. "I'm not going to be a free swinger, but I'm going to let it go a lot more. Quit worrying about the average and be a damaging hitter. When you get hot, max it out and quit trying to do things you did when you were younger.

"If I can get a ball close enough to me, I'm going to pull it. That's just the way it is. I don't care to go to right field anymore. From center to left is where I'm putting the ball right now."

Where in that quote does he say 'I'm only going to try to hit homeuns'. He said he wasn't going to worry about his average as much and try to be a more 'damaging hitter'. Ever since Thomas got to the majors people have complained about him taking 'too many walks' and not driving the ball enough. Considering the double play tendencies of Ordonez and Konerko, and the lack of speed on the team, Frank hitting singles to right isn't as helpful as him trying to drive the ball for extra base hits. If he got a single, we had no one in front of him capable of taking 2 bases on it (when we had people on base, which is another problem) and he just set up a DP for the next 2 guys.

jabrch
11-01-2003, 03:56 PM
I am still torn about Frank staying. On one hand, I have respect for the best hitter in the 90s who I loved watching play. I have respect for a guy who is still a top flight hitter. My problem is not with Frank. My problem is with the situation that we are now in. We are now in a position where the only way we can compete is to trade someone who I like watching more (TODAY) than I do Frank - Mags - or someone who is young and developing into a very good hitter (Lee).

someone tell me what the REALISTIC best case scenario for our roster is... (not being able to trade GIDPK or Koch, not getting anyone to sign remarkably under market value, etc.)

batmanZoSo
11-01-2003, 04:02 PM
I think it's a pretty easy decision.

Who do you get rid of, Maggs or Thomas?

Well, Thomas is a better hitter. Always has been.

Thomas is a lot more affordable.

Maggs can get us a ton in a trade and we will not and probably should not sign him for more than 14 million after 2004.

Thomas stays.

RKMeibalane
11-01-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by ssang
Frank Thomas coming back to the White Sox is NOT a good thing for the team. I wish he and his "I'm only going for HR's" ass would have gone elsewhere. My Frank Thomas 2004 prediction..... .244 avg, 33 hr, 85 RBI, and 1,000,000 pop-outs and fly outs!! We really could've used this 6 mil on someone else. This sucks!

I'm going to say it again. If there is any blame to be had for the mess the Sox are currently in, then the blame must lie with management. Frank Thomas is not at fault here, no matter what the 'haters would like for people to believe.

Management offered Frank a contract that included several mutual option years. How is Frank wrong for simply abiding by the terms of his contract? How? I have yet to hear any of the 'haters come up with a valid reason. And, for the record, saying he "whines too much" is not a valid reason.

Frank Thomas is still an amazing hitter. He would be an asset to any ballclub in Major League Baseball, based on his bat alone. The Sox, and their fans, should consider themselves lucky to have him. I certainly do. I'm beginning to think that some people on this board don't pay much attention to Sox games. From what I saw this past season, Frank did much more to help the team win than several others players- many of whom were making MORE than he was. So tell me, how exactly is Frank hurting the club more than those players?

Here is a more animated version of the question:

How is :hurt more of a drain on the ballclub than :walnuts?

I'm waiting for your answer.

MarkV
11-01-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Here is Thomas' quote:



Where in that quote does he say 'I'm only going to try to hit homeuns'. He said he wasn't going to worry about his average as much and try to be a more 'damaging hitter'. Ever since Thomas got to the majors people have complained about him taking 'too many walks' and not driving the ball enough. Considering the double play tendencies of Ordonez and Konerko, and the lack of speed on the team, Frank hitting singles to right isn't as helpful as him trying to drive the ball for extra base hits. If he got a single, we had no one in front of him capable of taking 2 bases on it (when we had people on base, which is another problem) and he just set up a DP for the next 2 guys.

You don't have the whole quote. I don't remember what the exact quote was, but he did say something to the effect that hits weren't as important as HR's. The whole point is, that instead of trying to drive the ball and get hits, he was focused on trying to hit HR's. When you try to hit HR's, you strike out a lot more, hit into more double plays, and you hit a lot more popups and lazy fly balls. As for Ordonez and Konerko and everyone else on the team, they were all trying to hit HR's as well. I'm not just blaming Frank. As far as Frank hitting singles, how many times did we waste scoring opportunities when he was up with guys on second and third and he popped out? Then Maggs or whoever hit a long fly ball that could've been a SF, but was instead the last out of the inning? Plus, how many more RBI could Maggs or whoever have had when they hit doubles and Frank only made it to third, when 98% of baseball would have easily scored? The point is that more often then not, his going for HR's blew a lot of scoring opportunities. Frank should have batted sixth in the lineup, but unfortunately, Jerry Manuel was too stupid to realize that.

MarkV
11-01-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I think it's a pretty easy decision.

Who do you get rid of, Maggs or Thomas?

Well, Thomas is a better hitter. Always has been.

Thomas is a lot more affordable.

Maggs can get us a ton in a trade and we will not and probably should not sign him for more than 14 million after 2004.

Thomas stays.

You forget that despite his bad year, Maggs is six years younger, the closest to a five-tool player we have, and is one of the top players in baseball. If he goes back to playing the way he did prior to 2003, what will all you Maggs naysayers (I don't know if that's spelled right, but I don't feel like using spellcheck) be saying then?

I respect every good thing Thomas has done for this organization, but you can't hang on to the past. His best days are behind him. Besides, how many championships did Frank help bring to the South Side?

TornLabrum
11-01-2003, 05:09 PM
One point that was made early on in the thread hasn't been addressed at all, and I think it is the key one. The Sox have two 1B/DH types, Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko. Frank is taking his option at $6 million for 2004 while Konerko is slated to get the same amount. Frank's production in 2003 was a whole lot better than Konerko's (.915 OPS for Frank vs. .704 for Konerko). Looking ahead to 2005, Thomas's option is $8 million while Konerko is scheduled to make $8.75 million.

Yet the Sox are not happy that Thomas elected to stay because he's the drain on their salary structure? The last I saw $16.75 million is more than $14 million, and they've gotten a helluva lot more production out of that $14-million player.

batmanZoSo
11-01-2003, 05:35 PM
I still hold my points above yours. It's about what's best for the team and salary plays a huge part in it. Thomas is cheap and locked up...Magglio's expensive and on his way out after next year. We have to trade him. We're certain to get a young star for him in a trade, so you don't have to worry about youth.

MRKARNO
11-01-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I still hold my points above yours. It's about what's best for the team and salary plays a huge part in it. Thomas is cheap and locked up...Magglio's expensive and on his way out after next year. We have to trade him. We're certain to get a young star for him in a trade, so you don't have to worry about youth.

Well if we could sign Maggs to a five year extension at 10 mil per I would say that we need to do that. If vlad doesnt make more than 12, I dont see Maggs getting more than 10

StepsInSC
11-01-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane

How is :hurt more of a drain on the ballclub than :walnuts?

I'm waiting for your answer.

Simple really! :walnuts is a team player! Yea he hit into a lot of DPs, but he was thinking only about the team. :hurt just wanted those HRs for himself, he knows they do no good for the team, and yet he continues to hit them! Selfish!

voodoochile
11-01-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
One point that was made early on in the thread hasn't been addressed at all, and I think it is the key one. The Sox have two 1B/DH types, Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko. Frank is taking his option at $6 million for 2004 while Konerko is slated to get the same amount. Frank's production in 2003 was a whole lot better than Konerko's (.915 OPS for Frank vs. .704 for Konerko). Looking ahead to 2005, Thomas's option is $8 million while Konerko is scheduled to make $8.75 million.

Yet the Sox are not happy that Thomas elected to stay because he's the drain on their salary structure? The last I saw $16.75 million is more than $14 million, and they've gotten a helluva lot more production out of that $14-million player.

Should we as fans be more alarmed by the fact that KW wasn't happy that Frank returned? That means he was planning on using PK at 1B/DH next year. Which means he is probably STILL counting on PK being at one of those slots next year.

Now maybe PK gets hotter than heck and comes closer to justifying his salary than he did last year, but on the other hand, maybe he repeats 2003 and the Sox not only waste his spot in the lineup all year, but are forced to eat his salary in 2005 too because if PK tanks it again in 2004, no way will they even get that bag of used baseballs for him. Not even a small bag of used baseballs...

RKMeibalane
11-01-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Not even a small bag of used baseballs...

I don't know, voodoo. If I were a GM, I might consider a trade that netted me tennis balls in return. Or maybe hockey pucks.

Seriously, though, I agree with everything you said. If Williams was hoping that Frank would leave, it means that he was already making plans for life without him. I honestly don't see how KW thinks that Konerko can give the Sox anywhere near the production that Frank has given them. Nobody has come up with a way to replace the Big Hurt's production in the event that he ends up playing elsewhere in the future. Frank's worst year was, in many respects, similar to Konerko's best. That fact alone should alert Williams that Konerko is the one who needs to go, not Frank.

voodoochile
11-01-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I don't know, voodoo. If I were a GM, I might consider a trade that netted me tennis balls in return. Or maybe hockey pucks.

Seriously, though, I agree with everything you said. If Williams was hoping that Frank would leave, it means that he was already making plans for life without him. I honestly don't see how KW thinks that Konerko can give the Sox anywhere near the production that Frank has given them. Nobody has come up with a way to replace the Big Hurt's production in the event that he ends up playing elsewhere in the future. Frank's worst year was, in many respects, similar to Konerko's best. That fact alone should alert Williams that Konerko is the one who needs to go, not Frank.

For me is isn't about Konerko giving us Frank type numbers. I am not sure he can put up adequate numbers at all. I didn't expect them to replace Frank's numbers for $6M anyway, so that was never an issue.

MRKARNO
11-01-2003, 11:38 PM
Well I dont know how everyone else felt, but when I heard that the white sox werent planning on picking up Frank's option for the first time, I didnt want to believe it because I can't imagine a White Sox team without Frank Thomas.

TornLabrum
11-02-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Simple really! :walnuts is a team player! Yea he hit into a lot of DPs, but he was thinking only about the team. :hurt just wanted those HRs for himself, he knows they do no good for the team, and yet he continues to hit them! Selfish!

You forgot about ripping Thomas in front of the media. Now there's a real team guy!

crector
11-02-2003, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by ssang
My Frank Thomas 2004 prediction..... .244 avg, 33 hr, 85 RBI, and 1,000,000 pop-outs and fly outs!!


I'll take it. Its almost certainly better than what your beloved Konerko will do.

RichH55
11-02-2003, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by crector
I'll take it. Its almost certainly better than what your beloved Konerko will do.

Just think though...if he hits .244 and gets 1,000,000 pop outs....He should easy pass the 3,000 hit mark this year.....probably get past 10,000 too...that should cement his HOF qualifications:)

RichH55
11-02-2003, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by crector
I'll take it. Its almost certainly better than what your beloved Konerko will do.


Higher total: Frank's HR or PK's GIDP?

HaroldFan
11-02-2003, 10:09 AM
As far as Frank hitting singles, how many times did we waste scoring opportunities when he was up with guys on second and third and he popped out?

Frank's numbers with a runner on third and less than two out:

AB H 2B HR RBI BB HBP SF AVE OBP SLG

16 5 1 3 15 6 1 4 .313 .444 .938

Anybody have a problem with those numbers? 16 out of 27 times he either got on base or hit a sac fly. The real problem with the Sox offense that these numbers point out is that in 662 plate appearances Frank batted with a runner on third and less than two outs only 27 times. Now that is a problem that needs to be addressed.

ssang
11-02-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by crector
I'll take it. Its almost certainly better than what your beloved Konerko will do.

When the hell did I ever say I liked Konerko?? Because I haven't said and I certainly don't like Konerko. Although I am not a huge Thomas supporter, I will say that he's 100 times better than Konerko. IMO Paulie is one of the worst players on baseball to have on your team at this price. I mean millions of dollas are being wasted on a guy who sucks in the field, hits less homers than we need him to, hits into DP like they're going out of style, pops up almost as much as he Grounds into DP's, and he is slower than Ron Santo with no legs.

Thomas isn't the best thing for us but Konerko is absolutley killing our team on the field and in the payroll! I say if we can trade Konerko and Maggs for Soriano and Johnson.....HELL YES!

Paulwny
11-02-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Should we as fans be more alarmed by the fact that KW wasn't happy that Frank returned?



I think this proves that the payroll will be low. KW knows Konerko is untradeable and he's stuck with his salary. So, he's hoping to reduce payroll any way he can.
JR has put KW between the rock and the hard place, he has to field a competative team with a low payroll.

RKMeibalane
11-02-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I think this proves that the payroll will be low. KW knows Konerko is untradeable and he's stuck with his salary. So, he's hoping to reduce payroll any way he can.
JR has put KW between the rock and the hard place, he has to field a competative team with a low payroll.

It's amazing how it always comes down to money with this team. After twenty three years of mediocre baseball, one would think Reinsdorf would have realized the error of his ways by now.

:reinsy

"I won't admit I'm wrong until you come to the park. So there!"