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Lip Man 1
10-30-2003, 11:27 PM
Teddy Greenstein on the Tribune web site just has come out with a detailed story looking at the Sox salary squeeze. He has this paragraph:

"With about $49 million in salary committed to seven players—Magglio Ordonez, Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee, Frank Thomas, Billy Koch, Esteban Loaiza, Mark Buehrle—and a projected payroll of $55 million-to-$60 million, Williams almost certainly will have to trade at least one of his highest-salaried employees.

He then goes into a detailed player by player breakdown of the highest salaried guys and looks at the chances of them being traded. He then looks at the Sox free agent picture and quotes Kenny Williams in the piece.

I recommend it. (Of course this "problem" is something Jerry Reinsdorf could cure in an instant if he wanted to...you know like upgrade the Sox payroll to the MLB average of 70 million dollars.)

Lip

Brian26
10-30-2003, 11:54 PM
7 players...

6 of which have hips that are fully functional.

6 of which have arms that haven't fallen off yet.

Is Gord Ash still a GM anywhere right now?

MRKARNO
10-31-2003, 12:00 AM
Well then how the hell can they offer 12 mil a year to Colon? Unless a majority of that money was defered?

Maybe that's why he didnt accept

:bcolon

"My cheezborgor budget is running low"

CubKilla
10-31-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well then how the hell can they offer 12 mil a year to Colon? Unless a majority of that money was defered?

Maybe that's why he didnt accept

Wouldn't surprise me. They did it to a 19-game winner last season with a contract heavy on deferment and incentives. Why wouldn't they try the same garbage with Colon after the mediocre '03 he had?

TraderTim
10-31-2003, 08:51 AM
As I posted elsewhere, to those of you that don't know how to do the math or don't know how the world of finance works...

Deferred portions of contracts are really as good as cash these days to the players. You can take a guaranteed contract to a bank and turn it into cash flow. With interest rates this low, it would cost less than $30K per mill on a three year contract to make the conversion from deferred to cash for a player. That's barely a week of burgers for Bart...And that assumes the club isn't paying him any interest on the deferred amount.

When you're getting paid $12 mill per year, $3 or $4 mill deferred isn't a big deal at all, if you want to stay with the club.

It does help the club tremendously, because their corporate structure operates on actual cash flow...Allowing them to defer the salary allows them to use that portion of the cash flow to get other players.

If he wanted to stay, this was a fair offer. Deferred guaranteed contracts are pretty much equal to cash these days.

TT

jabrch
10-31-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by TraderTim
As I posted elsewhere, to those of you that don't know how to do the math or don't know how the world of finance works...

Deferred portions of contracts are really as good as cash these days to the players. You can take a guaranteed contract to a bank and turn it into cash flow. With interest rates this low, it would cost less than $30K per mill on a three year contract to make the conversion from deferred to cash for a player. That's barely a week of burgers for Bart...And that assumes the club isn't paying him any interest on the deferred amount.

When you're getting paid $12 mill per year, $3 or $4 mill deferred isn't a big deal at all, if you want to stay with the club.

It does help the club tremendously, because their corporate structure operates on actual cash flow...Allowing them to defer the salary allows them to use that portion of the cash flow to get other players.

If he wanted to stay, this was a fair offer. Deferred guaranteed contracts are pretty much equal to cash these days.

TT

The player can take the deferred portion of his money to any bank/investement house and "sell" it for cash now - at a rate of approximately 30K per MM. So if Colon was offered 4mm deferred, he could sell that (assuming the White Sox credit rating is acceptable) to someone for about 3.88mm in todays cash. Like you said, when you make 13mm per year, $120,000 doesn't mean a whole lot if it makes you happy to be somewhere.

Bartolo probably wants to be a winner and thinks that the Sox, given the salary situations we have discussed here, do not have as good of a chance of winning a World Series as do NYY, Boston or other options.

Irishsox1
10-31-2003, 09:46 AM
That article by Greenstein was a total Tribune hatchet job. I find it laughable that since Frank came back that the Sox will have to get rid of Lee, Ordonez or Koch. The Tribune is the biggest piece of garbage corporation since Enron. I understand that the White Sox don't have Yankee payroll money, but the thought of dumping Lee or Ordonez at this point in time is Bartman like thinking.

Lip Man 1
10-31-2003, 11:58 AM
For the discussion Williams is also quoted in another story today in the Sun Times where he makes an interesting comment: ""As I said, I anticipate this being a long offseason in terms of it being late for signings.

I think what this means is that Williams is hoping the glut of free agents and the tight market will force players to bring down their salary demands to the point where the Sox can compete (they being a "small market" team you know!) for them.

The risk to this is that by the time the players start dropping their demands (say in mid January) the best players could be gone and all that's left for the Sox to bid on is mediocrity or players that don't fill their actual needs...C, SS, CF, SP and possibly the bullpen)

It's a risk but I guess when ownership refuses to allow an average sized payroll that's all you can do (besides trades of course which is where I think Williams is going to make his moves)

Lip

MarqSox
10-31-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
That article by Greenstein was a total Tribune hatchet job. I find it laughable that since Frank came back that the Sox will have to get rid of Lee, Ordonez or Koch. The Tribune is the biggest piece of garbage corporation since Enron. I understand that the White Sox don't have Yankee payroll money, but the thought of dumping Lee or Ordonez at this point in time is Bartman like thinking.
I disagree ... the Sox' stated budget is $60 million. Seven players use up $49 million, leaving 18 players to divy up $11 million. The Alomar brothers alone will get at least $5 million of that. Plus, Schoeneweis will get $2 million through arbitration. So, make it 15 players for $4 million ... not hard to see that something's gotta give.

Dadawg_77
10-31-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I disagree ... the Sox' stated budget is $60 million. Seven players use up $49 million, leaving 18 players to divy up $11 million. The Alomar brothers alone will get at least $5 million of that. Plus, Schoeneweis will get $2 million through arbitration. So, make it 15 players for $4 million ... not hard to see that something's gotta give.

Say those 15 players avg 500K each that would cost you 7.5 million, 300K avg MLB min is 4.5 million.

cornball
10-31-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
For the discussion Williams is also quoted in another story today in the Sun Times where he makes an interesting comment: ""As I said, I anticipate this being a long offseason in terms of it being late for signings.

I think what this means is that Williams is hoping the glut of free agents and the tight market will force players to bring down their salary demands to the point where the Sox can compete (they being a "small market" team you know!) for them.

The risk to this is that by the time the players start dropping their demands (say in mid January) the best players could be gone and all that's left for the Sox to bid on is mediocrity or players that don't fill their actual needs...C, SS, CF, SP and possibly the bullpen)

It's a risk but I guess when ownership refuses to allow an average sized payroll that's all you can do (besides trades of course which is where I think Williams is going to make his moves)

Lip


Kenny I anticipate slow season tix sales too until you convince us your serious.

Irishsox1
10-31-2003, 01:06 PM
My feelings is the Sox payroll is not capped at $60 million. As much as the Sox say it is, as long as they were offering Colon that much money, they are willing to go above $60 million. I wouldn't be surprised is the Sox payroll ends up near $70 to $75 million.

Brian26
10-31-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Kenny I anticipate slow season tix sales too until you convince us your serious.

I hate to sound like such a KW apologist, but the guy's made more gutsy moves over the past 3 years than Schu made over a decade. He doesn't need to convince me of anything. He wants to win. Anyone who goes after David Wells and Bartolo Colon like he did deserves a little bit more credit than that.

john2499
10-31-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
My feelings is the Sox payroll is not capped at $60 million. As much as the Sox say it is, as long as they were offering Colon that much money, they are willing to go above $60 million. I wouldn't be surprised is the Sox payroll ends up near $70 to $75 million.

I was thinking the same way. I am hoping this is the case.

hold2dibber
10-31-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I disagree ... the Sox' stated budget is $60 million. Seven players use up $49 million, leaving 18 players to divy up $11 million. The Alomar brothers alone will get at least $5 million of that. Plus, Schoeneweis will get $2 million through arbitration. So, make it 15 players for $4 million ... not hard to see that something's gotta give.

Garland, I believe is arbitration eligible, and will likely make at least $1.5 mm this year. So make it 14 players for $2.5 million.

SoxRulecubsdrool
10-31-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I hate to sound like such a KW apologist, but the guy's made more gutsy moves over the past 3 years than Schu made over a decade. He doesn't need to convince me of anything. He wants to win. Anyone who goes after David Wells and Bartolo Colon like he did deserves a little bit more credit than that.

Couldn't have said it better myself. We need to take a deep breath and see what happens.

spataro51
10-31-2003, 05:08 PM
I like kenny and i know he will give us a competitive team next year. Look at last year, everyone was mad because we didn;t do anything except the koch trade in the offseason until we traded for bartolo and that didn't come until the mid of january. Once we got him then we signed flash. If you see this offseason will probably be the same, I see a mid level trade happening then a slow period to let the prices on players die down and I see a big trade like the bartolo trade comming after the winter meetings. Lee, Maggs, Buerhle, valentin, both alomars, thomas, crede, will all be here for next year. I don;t see maggs or lee being traded, kw has said that he is a big fan of magglio and his 14 mil salary, and also trading lee might give us some prospects in return but as far as clearing up payroll well he will probably only get 5 or 6 mil in arbitration. Maybe konerko will be traded if they can get a taker for him but probably salary for salary exchange. KW will figure something out. I see the payroll going up to about maybe 65-68 mil next year. There will be some surprises. KW will give us a winner next year, especially if cito is the manager, because i am hearing that he will only manage if the core is still here and that we are competitive.