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bc2k
10-30-2003, 06:26 PM
I'd like to expose some of the Thomas talk as myth. I've decided to post this here and not in Frank's return thread, out of respect for FOBH.

People are posting that Frank wants to play for the Sox. No, he doesn't. Frank returned because he knew his current contract gives him more money than he would have gotten on the FA market.

Why has groupthink settled in when referring to Thomas playing First Base? What evidence is there that Frank can play even league average defensively? The reason posters say they want Thomas at First is to shift blame for his hitting performance on the road. The thinking is, 'it's not Thomas's fault he's not hitting. It's Manuel's fault for not letting him play first where he's prove to hit better.' Have you taken into consideration that Thomas has been in the DH role for 6 years? He should be expected to succeed equally in wherever he plays.

I've also had to read that Thomas's numbers cannot be replaced for $6 million dollars (Thomas's 2004 salary). Replacing Thomas's numbers is not necessary to win the World Series. The Sox had their highest output of home runs in 2003 EVER in team history. Where did it get them? Second place in the worst division in the AL.

Since most feel that the Sox have too many station-to-station power hitters, and Konerko and his contract cannot be moved, why has there not been discussion about moving the irreplaceable Frank Thomas in order to afford a true lead-off hitting second baseman like Castillo? I'll answer that question for you: because you value individual goals like 500 home runs and a boner fantasy of only seeing Thomas in Sox pinstripes over a more successful White Sox team.

I don't see how anyone can say a true leadoff hitter who plays solid defense at an up-the-middle position is less valuable than Thomas, considering the current makeup of this Sox team. Thomas’s cost when compared to numbers in his “position” is usually an asset, but not on this team. The Sox value a table setting spark plug more than they need another 33-43 home runs in 2004. First inning solo home runs will not win us the division; Castillo could.

Daver
10-30-2003, 06:30 PM
:whoflungpoo

PaleHoseGeorge
10-30-2003, 06:35 PM
Sad. Very sad.

MRKARNO
10-30-2003, 06:39 PM
:threadsucks

poorme
10-30-2003, 07:04 PM
Thomas is a steal for 6 mil. That's chump change. I'd love to get Castillo also. I don't see what one has to do with another.

Bobby Thigpen
10-30-2003, 07:04 PM
bc2K, I'm with you brother. The LAST thing the Sox needed was Frank back. All we have to hear about is how the Sox need less 1b/DH types, but no one ever wants to get rid of the whiniest, oldest one of the bunch. I don't care how much you want to bitch about PK, the bottom line is like him or not, the Sox are stuck with him. And why anyone wants to get rid of Carlos is beyond me. They could have at least gotten rid of Frank and got ANYONE with speed. The Sox don't need him back. In fact they need to get rid of him to do anything I think.

You're going to take a lot of heat with this, but you're not alone in failing to see the "savior" side of Frank.

FarWestChicago
10-30-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally trolled by bc2k
:troll

RKMeibalane
10-30-2003, 07:22 PM
Shut. The. Hell. Up.

soxtalker
10-30-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
... And why anyone wants to get rid of Carlos is beyond me. ...

Most of the postings suggesting that we trade Carlos simply point out that he is one of the most marketable. He is perceived by the other GM's to have great value without costing a huge salary. Thus, we should be able to get a lot in return. Maybe we can fill some more glaring holes.

pudge
10-30-2003, 07:29 PM
Does bc2k have a history that I don't know about? People seem extra harsh on him. I just don't think his points are all bad, but my response would be that there should be no reason why we can't have Frank AND Castillo... the problem is our self-imposed salary cap. So since our organization refuses to spend some decent cash anyway, why not have Frank hit his 500th in a Sox uni and finish his career off on the southside? The bottom line is, Frank is worth $6 mil. But we need to spend a lot more than that to be a championship team anyway.

bc2k
10-30-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Thomas is a steal for 6 mil. That's chump change. I'd love to get Castillo also. I don't see what one has to do with another.

Originally posted by bc2k
Since most feel that the Sox have too many station-to-station power hitters, and Konerko and his contract cannot be moved...

I don't see how anyone can say a true leadoff hitter who plays solid defense at an up-the-middle position is less valuable than Thomas, considering the current makeup of this Sox team. Thomas’s cost when compared to numbers in his “position” is usually an asset, but not on this team. The Sox value a table setting spark plug more than they need another 33-43 home runs in 2004. First inning solo home runs will not win us the division; Castillo could.

Daver
10-30-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Does bc2k have a history that I don't know about?

See post number seven in this thread.


:bandance:

Clembasbal
10-30-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by bc2k

People are posting that Frank wants to play for the Sox. No, he doesn't. Frank returned because he knew his current contract gives him more money than he would have gotten on the FA market.


So you know Frank on a personal level? How are his kids?

crector
10-30-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Does bc2k have a history that I don't know about?


It is suspected that bc2k is really Jay Mariotti in disguise. They are equally poor writers and thinkers whose output makes little or no sense.

poorme
10-30-2003, 07:45 PM
I'm one of those people that would like to see more speed and defense on the Sox.

I'm not going to bother and try to explain why getting someone who hits 40 homers and a .400 OBP is a steal for $6 mil.

Thomas doesn't play second base, so there would be no problem getting Castillo as well.

bc2k
10-30-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Does bc2k have a history that I don't know about? People seem extra harsh on him. I just don't think his points are all bad, but my response would be that there should be no reason why we can't have Frank AND Castillo... the problem is our self-imposed salary cap. So since our organization refuses to spend some decent cash anyway, why not have Frank hit his 500th in a Sox uni and finish his career off on the southside? The bottom line is, Frank is worth $6 mil. But we need to spend a lot more than that to be a championship team anyway.

That was mighty nice of you to say. Thank you.

You see no reason why the Sox should not have both Thomas and Castillo on the team since they are both productive players. I counter that with this: I want Castillo because he adds parts to the Sox's game that we currently don't have. Also, I feel that too many one-dimensional power hitters is negative to the team and its success. It is only because of the Sox's current makeup that I would like to see Thomas leave. If we had a team like the Florida Marlins or LA Dodgers who are in need of a token power hitter, then Thomas would a good fit and I would lobby for him to stay.

Thus, while Frank's numbers are not too far from silver slugger worthiness, they are not necessary for this team because of his and other Sox hitters' deficiency in baserunning and situational hitting. Of all the power hitting poor baserunners on the Sox, I feel for many reasons that Thomas is the most and easiest expendable of the group. Basically, I want Castillo not just because he adds parts of the game the current Sox team doesn't have, BUT ALSO because the number of similar power hitters we currently have is a detriment to winning.

voodoochile
10-30-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
That was mighty nice of you to say. Thank you.

You see no reason why the Sox should not have both Thomas and Castillo on the team since they are both productive players. I counter that with this: I want Castillo because he adds parts to the Sox's game that we currently don't have. Also, I feel that too many one-dimensional power hitters is negative to the team and its success. It is only because of the Sox's current makeup that I would like to see Thomas leave. If we had a team like the Florida Marlins or LA Dodgers who are in need of a token power hitter, then Thomas would a good fit and I would lobby for him to stay.

Thus, while Frank's numbers are not too far from silver slugger worthiness, they are not necessary for this team because of his and other Sox hitters' deficiency in baserunning and situational hitting. Of all the power hitting poor baserunners on the Sox, I feel for many reasons that Thomas is the most and easiest expendable of the group. Basically, I want Castillo not just because he adds parts of the game the current Sox team doesn't have, BUT ALSO because the number of similar power hitters we currently have is a detriment to winning.

Not necessary = unnecessary?

So, because the Sox cannot unload PK (because of his high contract), they should dump Frank (not that they had a choice in the matter) and suffer through PK's season which will probably be about half as productive as Frank and cost more money? I mean they have him on the team, so they should play him, right?

I agree with the other posters. Why does one thing preclude the other? Why do you as a Sox fan want to dump a guy who was in your own words "Silver Slugger worthy" (or not too far from it, because you just won't admit that Frank actually could still be a productive player)? Actually, Frank got robbed in that vote. His numbers were better than Martinez any day of the week.

You keep saying Frank is one dimensional as a hitter, but he both hits for power and reaches base better than anyone else on the team.

You want Castillo, I want Castillo, but I want Frank too.

I have no idea how anyone can say the Sox will be a better team by dumping their first or second best hitter who is a steal at $6M next year. Because he might not be a league average 1B defensively? pfffft... get a clue...

:whoflungpoo

:threadsucks

:troll

ThisThreadSucks
10-30-2003, 08:16 PM
You'll find me in almost all of bc2k's threads!

TornLabrum
10-30-2003, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by ThisThreadSucks
You'll find me in almost all of bc2k's threads!

And with good reason.

Here is a suggestion for bc2k: Whenever there is a thread involving Frank Thomas, save yourself the energy of your interminably long posts and just type, "What I've said in the past 7,256,327 Frank Thomas threads."

Dub25
10-30-2003, 09:15 PM
The Soxogram reads something about way to go Frank thanks for sticking with us. Give me a break. Just like bc whatever said he's here because he knew he couldn't get more money anywhere else. It wasn't the Sox choice to keep him or not but if I were given the choice I would've dumped his whiney, mopey butt and used the money on Castillo who plays great D and is a pain to get out. Also, he has a world series ring. Frank will now be going into his 14th year and all of his homeruns have added up to ZERO titles. Since he will be with us for another year JR could still open up the purse and get Castillo and Petitte or Millwood or Ponson and Vina or Todd Walker.

DSpivack
10-30-2003, 09:15 PM
We all want Frank,
We all want Castillo,
but it's a good thing
nobody wants
Frank Castillo!

Jjav829
10-30-2003, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by DSpivack
We all want Frank,
We all want Castillo,
but it's a good thing
nobody wants
Frank Castillo!

LMAO!! I like it! :D:

voodoochile
10-30-2003, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
The Soxogram reads something about way to go Frank thanks for sticking with us. Give me a break. Just like bc whatever said he's here because he knew he couldn't get more money anywhere else. It wasn't the Sox choice to keep him or not but if I were given the choice I would've dumped his whiney, mopey butt and used the money on Castillo who plays great D and is a pain to get out. Also, he has a world series ring. Frank will now be going into his 14th year and all of his homeruns have added up to ZERO titles. Since he will be with us for another year JR could still open up the purse and get Castillo and Petitte or Millwood or Ponson and Vina or Todd Walker.

I put that up there and you can spin it anyway you want. Frank had a chance to try and force the Sox to pay him more money or walk away. He didn't. It must really suck to hate a guy that much and watch him continue to stick with your team.

Don't you just love how the haters always have some other reason that they want to dump Frank for? He can't run. He doesn't have any rings. He's not as good as he was in 1994. His 2001 season sucked. He's whiney, mopey, dopey, doc and sneezy. He's old. His brother's dog's sister's cousin's owner's doctor's niece once broke up with me. He doesn't win MVP's/Silver Sluggers/Heisman Trophys. And of course my favorite...

He cannot throw as well as Paul Konerko...

I agree with one point the haters have made in this thread: The Sox have too many 1B/DH types and need to get rid of some of them. Can we at least agree to dump the higher paid less productive ones?

:walnuts
"Why are you looking at me?"

gosox41
10-30-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
The Soxogram reads something about way to go Frank thanks for sticking with us. Give me a break. Just like bc whatever said he's here because he knew he couldn't get more money anywhere else. It wasn't the Sox choice to keep him or not but if I were given the choice I would've dumped his whiney, mopey butt and used the money on Castillo who plays great D and is a pain to get out. Also, he has a world series ring. Frank will now be going into his 14th year and all of his homeruns have added up to ZERO titles. Since he will be with us for another year JR could still open up the purse and get Castillo and Petitte or Millwood or Ponson and Vina or Todd Walker.

I always thought I was negative about the Sox but this is getting ridiculous. Frank Thomas is the best hitter in White Sox history. He is one of the best hitters to come along in the last30 years (I for one think he's the best.)

He was the most productive hitter on the team last season, even better then Magglio. He maintained a near .400 OBP and still hit 42 HR's and people are complaining. Where's all this whining for Jose and his selfish act of continuing to hit as a rightie? Only Sox fans would want to get rid of the best hitter in a generation who is still productive. PK's best year equals Frank's worst (not including 2001 when Frank only played 27 games.)

It's also ridiculous to talk of having Castillo over Frank. First, because Frank is better. Second, because odds are Alomar is going to resign. If you want to debate who is better between Castillo and Roberto Alomar, I'm all for it. I'd even go with Castillo.

But this ripping on Frank is ridiculous. So he says stupid things to the media, how many other athletes run their mouths? Do you really think Frank is the first selfish professional athlete?

Appreciate Frank while he's here. Because he does so much more for the team then just put up great numbers. He is in the top 3 in the league in pitches faced per at bat. That's important because: 1. it helps wear down a pitcher, and 2 . it gives the other players who bother paying attention to observe what's working/ not working for the pitcher.

I'm just sick of all the Frank bashing. There's been a lot worse moves made by this team then having Frank Thomas around. And anyone who just wants to lose him for nothing is falling in the KW category of idiocy.

Bob

RKMeibalane
10-30-2003, 09:45 PM
:jerry

"I can't imagine any situation short of an emergency for playing Frank at first base. When trying to win a championship, it is much more important for a team to have its best defensive players on the field for each game. It is also crucial that these men are able to throw the ball.

"That is why I have selected Paul Konerko as the starting first baseman. He makes that throw to second better than anyone I've ever seen. I could spend hours watching highlights of his outstanding defensive play. It's just mind-boggling how great he is out there. Paul's in a class by himself."

:ohno

"How did this man manage to stick around for six years?"

:walnuts

"Better yet, how did I manage to stay in the lineup when I sucked so bad?"

bc2k
10-30-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

:walnuts
"Why are you looking at me?"

In every Frank bashing thread, anti-Konerko sentiment always creeps up in defense of Frank. Usually it's an instant reflex, but today lasted all the way to post 23.

Since Thomas's talent can't stand on its own, FOBH point to an inferior player to show how good Thomas really is in comparision to bad players. Nevermind that the inferior player had nothing to do with the thread, when Thomas's ability is questioned, FOBH do whatever necessary.

I have to agree that Thomas is a great player. Just look at Tony Graffanino's career stats in comparison. I think the MVPs end the debate Graffanino fans.

MRKARNO
10-30-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
He is one of the best hitters to come along in the last30 years (I for one think he's the best.)


:barrybonds

"I think you're forgetting Barry"

JRIG
10-30-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by bc2k

Since Thomas's talent can't stand on its own,

This may be the single funniest statement I've ever read on these boards.

voodoochile
10-30-2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
In every Frank bashing thread, anti-Konerko sentiment always creeps up in defense of Frank. Usually it's an instant reflex, but today lasted all the way to post 23.

Since Thomas's talent can't stand on its own, FOBH point to an inferior player to show how good Thomas really is in comparision to bad players. Nevermind that the inferior player had nothing to do with the thread, when Thomas's ability is questioned, FOBH do whatever necessary.

I have to agree that Thomas is a great player. Just look at Tony Graffanino's career stats in comparison. I think the MVPs end the debate Graffanino fans.

Frank's talent can't stand on it's own, *****!

I mention Konerko because he is the one who is going to take over Frank's spot as starting 1B/DH. In comparison to Paulie, it is a no brainer. At least my comparison has a valid reason...

voodoochile
10-30-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
This may be the single funniest statement I've ever read on these boards.

You and me have been jinxing back and forth in these Frank threads all day...

Great minds and all that... :D:

crector
10-30-2003, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Since Thomas's talent can't stand on its own, FOBH point to an inferior player to show how good Thomas really is in comparision to bad players. Nevermind that the inferior player had nothing to do with the thread, when Thomas's ability is questioned, FOBH do whatever necessary.

What's a FOBH?

Daver
10-30-2003, 10:26 PM
Frank Thomas has put up numbers that compare to the best hitter that has ever played the game,paying him six mil a year is a no brainer.

voodoochile
10-30-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by crector
What's a FOBH?

Friend Of Big Hurt

The FO always stands for "Friend Of" (insert player initial/nickname here)

voodoochile
10-30-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Frank Thomas has put up numbers that compare to the best hitter that has ever played the game,paying him six mil a year is a no brainer.

What about 2001?

FarWestChicago
10-30-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Friend Of Big Hurt

The FO always stands for "Friend Of" (insert player initial/nickname here) The original being FOB, Friend of Buddy Lee.

:buddylee

I will catch any ball hit right at me!!

TornLabrum
10-30-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Since Thomas's talent can't stand on its own...

Stop it! You're killing me!

I haven't laughed so hard since I was a sophomore in high school and heard the singing telegram joke for the first time!

TornLabrum
10-30-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Frank Thomas has put up numbers that compare to the best hitter that has ever played the game,paying him six mil a year is a no brainer.

But Daver, those number don't stand up on their own!

My sides are aching and I can't stop laughing!

bc2k
10-30-2003, 10:53 PM
JRIG, voodoo, TornLabrum, why then, the constant comparisons to inferior Konerko?

Deadguy
10-30-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
The Soxogram reads something about way to go Frank thanks for sticking with us. Give me a break. Just like bc whatever said he's here because he knew he couldn't get more money anywhere else. It wasn't the Sox choice to keep him or not but if I were given the choice I would've dumped his whiney, mopey butt and used the money on Castillo who plays great D and is a pain to get out. Also, he has a world series ring. Frank will now be going into his 14th year and all of his homeruns have added up to ZERO titles. Since he will be with us for another year JR could still open up the purse and get Castillo and Petitte or Millwood or Ponson and Vina or Todd Walker.


It wouldn't be hard to find a contract guaranteed at 17.5 million +, especially when you consider the fact that multiple players make more than that in a single season. The cynic in you just doesn't want to believe that Frank is loyal to this franchise, which has been proven many times before.

Frank will now be going into his 14th year and all of his homeruns have added up to ZERO titles.


Yes, and this is all his fault

Seriously, how many years with him have we missed the playoffs when we had more talent than the teams that beat us out?

1990 - Thomas comes up in the heat of a pennant race, hits .330, we finish 9 games behind Oakland. Frank obviously destroyed team chemistry, and cost us the pennant

1991 - Thomas leads the league in OPS and finishes third in the MVP voting. We finish 8 games behind the eventual World Champs. If Frank wasn't such a cancer, we would have won the World Series

1992. Thomas leads the league in OPS yet again, yet the Sox finish 3rd, 10 games back. Come on Frank, can't you be the best hitter in the league by a wider margin?

1993 - Thomas wins MVP, Sox win division title.

1994 - Thomas wins MVP, Sox win division title.

1995 - Sox are dismantled, with players like Burks and Franco replaced by lesser players. White Sox finish 32 games behind the up start Indians. Screw you Frank.

1996 - In June, the Sox had the best record in baseball. Thomas gets injured around the All-Star break, and the Sox dip behind the O's in the Wild Card race. Thomas plays pretty well in September, hitting 11 homers and winning player of the month award, but the Sox still come up a couple games short.

1997 - White Flag trade completely dismantles the Sox playoff chances. Belle is a disappointment, but Thomas wins a batting title, and leads the league in OPS. If only Frank had heart and leadership

1998 - The Sox were just a terrible team. Before you single out Thomas for this year, just remember, the Sox allowed 931 runs that season. The Sox pretty much had to overachieve just to reach 80 wins.

1999 - Team is dismantled. Frank is injured. He is the only one left to blame for the team's struggles. Did this team really have the talent to beat out Boston for the Wild Card or contend with Cleveland? I think not.

2000 - Frank comes back strong, finishes 2nd in the MVP race, Sox win Division Title.

2001 - Frank is injured in early May. Isn't much of a factor on the season overall.

2002 - Probably the year where Frank deserves most of the criticism for not performing to a better level, but he came off a career threatening injury. However, we still finished 13.5 games out of first, and aren't even close to Anaheim for the Wild Card. Singling him out is ridiculous.

2003 - Probably the only year we had more talent than the team who won the division. Thomas comes through many times in the clutch, and players like Koch and Konerko who fell flat on their faces are much more to blame.


So when you look at his career objectiviely, this past year and his performance in the 2000 playoffs are the only things where you can legitimately criticize Frank for not doing more to help us win a title.

JRIG
10-30-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You and me have been jinxing back and forth in these Frank threads all day...

Great minds and all that... :D:

I've noticed that as well. It's an easy cause to get behind.

JRIG
10-30-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
JRIG, voodoo, TornLabrum, why then, the constant comparisons to inferior Konerko?

I, for one, have never compared them for one simple reason: there's no comparison. Since Paul's best year is equal to Frank's worst, there isn't much to talk about. I mean except Paul's incredible throwing arm.

Seriously though, the comparisions I've seen have been mostly involving numbers while playing 1B.

MRKARNO
10-31-2003, 12:01 AM
Honestly, the biggest myth regarding Frank is that he isnt one of the best hitters in baseball

CubKilla
10-31-2003, 12:08 AM
I see there is still no shortage of Frank Kool-Aid here at WSI.

While I will not short-change anything Frank did for the White Sox early on in his career, it is evident that Frank Thomas is on the downslide of his career. At the very least, Frank should do himself and the team a favor and allow himself to be moved down in the batting order where I think he'll do more good while in the twilight of his career.

And I will think of all of you here when Frank pops-up to SS in a situational hitting spot while swinging for the fences in '04 and when no discernable increase in his offensive numbers is occurring if Frank is fortunate enough to be able to play 1B again.

batmanZoSo
10-31-2003, 12:20 AM
With Gaston around, I don't see that kind of engimatic stuff happening. Not only with Frank, but the entire team, provided we're not completely broken up. So he should have some support around him and there's no reason to believe he can't top last year. I think we'll all find out how important a managerial change was to this team. Manuel was an underachievement nexus in the universe.

Rocky Soprano
10-31-2003, 08:24 AM
I cant believe that a Sox fan would write so much crap. Im thinking he is a really a Flub fan!

fquaye149
10-31-2003, 09:29 AM
ok before we jump all over bc2k...

and let me establish the fact that having been born in 1983 ...frank is one of the main reasons why i like the sox as much as i do...

despite putting up 43 bombs last year and 105 ribbies...frank still kind of sputtered on offense.

his production was good, but i would pose the question: how valuable are walks when the man walking is Frank - a man who cannot advance on the basepaths well?

he hit only .267 which means when he wasn't walking(not a great contribution to the supposed goal of a team of grinders when the "walker" in question can't steal bases or advance on sac bunts or sac flies) he was getting out 73% of the time, not getting hits, which on a team of "grinders" would advance the runners - KEY. Also he struck out 105 times, which though far from sosa like numbers is not a happy accomplishment.


look...frank is a great player and i'm ecstatic that he's returning to the south side where he belongs. However it is foolish not to face the facts that he may not be the best use of 6 million dollars in a cramped budget when we are trying to emulate hard nosed, fundamental, teams like the (shudder) twins, or mariners...etc.


to say nothing of his defense(or absolute lack thereof)

crector
10-31-2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
ok before we jump all over bc2k...

and let me establish the fact that having been born in 1983 ...frank is one of the main reasons why i like the sox as much as i do...

despite putting up 43 bombs last year and 105 ribbies...frank still kind of sputtered on offense.

his production was good, but i would pose the question: how valuable are walks when the man walking is Frank - a man who cannot advance on the basepaths well?

he hit only .267 which means when he wasn't walking(not a great contribution to the supposed goal of a team of grinders when the "walker" in question can't steal bases or advance on sac bunts or sac flies) he was getting out 73% of the time, not getting hits, which on a team of "grinders" would advance the runners - KEY. Also he struck out 105 times, which though far from sosa like numbers is not a happy accomplishment.


look...frank is a great player and i'm ecstatic that he's returning to the south side where he belongs. However it is foolish not to face the facts that he may not be the best use of 6 million dollars in a cramped budget when we are trying to emulate hard nosed, fundamental, teams like the (shudder) twins, or mariners...etc.


to say nothing of his defense(or absolute lack thereof)

A few things:

1: As DH, Frank can't engage in "defense."

2: Saying that if you hit .267, you get out 73% and as such you are a detriment to the team is ridiculous. If Frank hit .400 in a season, would you chastise him for getting out 60%?

3: As for walks, in order to score you must first get on base. With each and every walk, you go to 1st base. If a teammate subsequently makes a hit, you have a chance to advance towards home plate and perhaps even score. What would you prefer Frank to do? Swing wildly at every pitch that's out of the strike zone?

4: Please name 1 (ONE!) FA this year who routinely puts up Frank's kind of numbers who would cost the Sox less than $6 Mil. a year. I'm sure that KW would like to find out.

5: Are you sure that you're really a Sox fan?

StepsInSC
10-31-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
to say nothing of his defense(or absolute lack thereof)

Jeez. He plays first base, a position notorious for being the home of heavy hitting, weak fielding guys. Its not centerfield we're talking about. The position is perfect for guys like him.

Kilroy
10-31-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
his production was good, but i would pose the question: how valuable are walks when the man walking is Frank - a man who cannot advance on the basepaths well?

I have never, in all the years of coming to this site, read anything more idiotic that was baseball related.

WALK = BASEHIT.

Would you have made the same dumb-ass statement if each and every one of Thomas' walks was a single instead?

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
JRIG, voodoo, TornLabrum, why then, the constant comparisons to inferior Konerko?

Because he is the obvious replacement for Frank. Are you expecting them to trade Frank and then go find someone else to play 1B/DH? If so, doesn't that defeat the purpose of dumping Frank in the first place?

PaleHoseGeorge
10-31-2003, 10:26 AM
LOL! It's a bad day to be bashing a $6 million Frank Thomas, and yet the Frank haters just can't help themselves.

:bandance:

JRIG
10-31-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149

his production was good, but i would pose the question: how valuable are walks when the man walking is Frank - a man who cannot advance on the basepaths well?



Well, when Frank has hitters behind him who actually produce, it's extremely valuable. As I've pointed out previously, Frank has scored over 100 runs NINE times in his career. That's three more times than speedy Kenny Lofton, three more times than speedy Roberto Alomar, three more times than speedy Craig Biggio...basically more than any active player not named Bonds or Henderson.

So exactly how has Frank scored all these runs when he "can't advance on the basepaths well"?

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Well, when Frank has hitters behind him who actually produce, it's extremely valuable. As I've pointed out previously, Frank has scored over 100 runs NINE times in his career. That's three more times than speedy Kenny Lofton, three more times than speedy Roberto Alomar, three more times than speedy Craig Biggio...basically more than any active player not named Bonds or Henderson.

So exactly how has Frank scored all these runs when he "can't advance on the basepaths well"?

Have you forgotten? When Frank was younger he rountinely stole 50+ bases a season and always scored from first on singles...

bc2k
10-31-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
ok before we jump all over bc2k...

how valuable are walks when the man walking is Frank - a man who cannot advance on the basepaths well?

I had a thread on this about a month ago proving the same point about Frank. I'm glad I'm not the only Sox fan that doesn't have blinders on...

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I had a thread on this about a month ago proving the same point about Frank. I'm glad I'm not the only Sox fan that doesn't have blinders on...

No, just tunnel vision...

JRIG
10-31-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I had a thread on this about a month ago proving the same point about Frank. I'm glad I'm not the only Sox fan that doesn't have blinders on...

And I made the same point a month ago in that thread. Thomas is 12th on the active list in runs scored. He had a string of eight consecutive 100-run season. He set a career-high in runs scored in 2000 with 115. Getting on base=scoring runs. Kenny Lofton has had fewer 100 run seasons than Frank Thomas. Lofton is a leadoff hitter, a very fast runner, and HIS JOB IS TO GET ON BASE AND SCORE RUNS. Yet Frank still does this better than Kenny Lofton over his career.

Unlike Paul Konerko who has never scored 100 runs in a season. (Sorry, couldn't resist the Koneko comparison. After all, Frank is only good when compared to an inferior player like Konerko .)

faneidde
10-31-2003, 12:21 PM
For two months last year teams were pitching around Frank to get to Mags, but somehow he isn't worth 6 mil per year. That is insane.

bc2k
10-31-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by crector
4: Please name 1 (ONE!) FA this year who routinely puts up Frank's kind of numbers who would cost the Sox less than $6 Mil. a year. I'm sure that KW would like to find out.

Thanks for mentioning this crector. This is the thread to talk of Frank myths, and you've brought one up that I overlooked.

This myth insists that Frank is the best option at $6 million because no other FA can put up equal numbers at an equal price. Well, we don't need to limit ourselves to FA's at $6 million! Carl Everett is much more of an asset to the White Sox, and every other team, than Frank Thomas. He may command $2 million more than Frank, but he is at least a $2 million more productive asset than Thomas. Plus Everett’s value is higher when his left handed power bat is factored. The Sox have more of a need for Everett and his baserunning skills, than another right handed token numbers guy. Everett owns Thomas (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/stats/cws_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section1=1&section2=1&section3=1&statSet1=1&statSet2=null&statSet3=null&statType=1&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2003&baseballScope=null&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true&subScope=teamCode&teamPosCode=cha&box3=XXXX123245chaD&box5=XXXX113946chaO&compare.x=34&compare.y=4). Despite Frank's infinitely valuable walks, the name of game is scoring, and Thomas scores less runs than a man who can run the bases, Carl Everett. Carl even has more hits than Thomas, 31 less strikeouts than Frankbeef, obviously more stolen bases, and a higher batting average than the hitter solely employed to hit! A stat that WSI has fallen in love with – the GIDP – has Thomas leading of Everett, 11-7. Perhaps Maggs and Paulie wouldn't have as many GIDPs if Manuel could have run and hit with Thomas. You can't put Thomas in motion, but you can with Everett.

Look at the graph from the link above. With Carl we won't have to deal with the inconsistencies of Thomas's slumps. Thomas always seems to end up with respectable numbers which is very deceiving to his season long performance. What’s most unfortunate is that many Sox fans don’t realize all the intangibles that make Carl a great player – intangibles Thomas doesn’t possess. Please tell me that you’ve seen Carl adjust his stance with 2 strikes. Carl avoids the strikeout, especially with men in on base, unlike Thomas whose approach is for the left field foul pole in every situation. Carl is a breath of fresh air. Remember who was the only hitter that showed up for the biggest series of the year at Minnesota? Carl Everett. We know we can depend on him in the playoffs and World Series. He’s got that Jeff Conine blood we saw in the Series. GAMER.

So IMO, Thomas's production CAN be replaced by Everett at a cost that is relatively cheaper when factors outside of homers is considered. Carl is younger and can play multiple positions unlike Thomas who can't even play a decent 1B anymore. Obviously when looking at salary, we can't just look at 2004 figures. Thomas's price increases every year, and I bet if Carl was offered a three year contract by the Sox with the same figures as Thomas's contract, he would have resigned with us. So yes, crector, Thomas production can not only be replaced, but surpassed at the same salary as Thomas.

bc2k
10-31-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
And I made the same point a month ago in that thread. Thomas is 12th on the active list in runs scored. He had a string of eight consecutive 100-run season. He set a career-high in runs scored in 2000 with 115. Getting on base=scoring runs. Kenny Lofton has had fewer 100 run seasons than Frank Thomas. Lofton is a leadoff hitter, a very fast runner, and HIS JOB IS TO GET ON BASE AND SCORE RUNS. Yet Frank still does this better than Kenny Lofton over his career.

Unlike Paul Konerko who has never scored 100 runs in a season. (Sorry, couldn't resist the Koneko comparison. After all, Frank is only good when compared to an inferior player like Konerko .)

MYTH #128,233,968 on Thomas: using career numbers to argue that he's guaranteed to hit career average in every year of his career.

lol on the Konerko line.

bc2k
10-31-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Because he is the obvious replacement for Frank. Are you expecting them to trade Frank and then go find someone else to play 1B/DH? If so, doesn't that defeat the purpose of dumping Frank in the first place?

You’re not differentiating between 1B and DH positions. In fantasy land Thomas is your 1B, but in reality, he’s a DH. Konerko plays 1B. Thomas is a DH.


Originally posted by voodoochile


Have you forgotten? When Frank was younger he rountinely stole 50+ bases a season and always scored from first on singles...

Using sarcasm writing in a radical manner trying to disprove Frank’s horrible baserunning b/c looking unobjectively, you know that most players – even power hitters that don’t steal 50+ bases – can advance the basepaths at a rate better than station-to-station, unlike Thomas.

AsInWreck
10-31-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy



1998 - The Sox were just a terrible team. Before you single out Thomas for this year, just remember, the Sox allowed 931 runs that season. The Sox pretty much had to overachieve just to reach 80 wins.

1999 - Team is dismantled. Frank is injured. He is the only one left to blame for the team's struggles. Did this team really have the talent to beat out Boston for the Wild Card or contend with Cleveland? I think not.

So when you look at his career objectiviely, this past year and his performance in the 2000 playoffs are the only things where you can legitimately criticize Frank for not doing more to help us win a title.

Exactly.
'98 - Frank's 1st "bad" year -109 runs scored, 109 rbi,
'99 - Frank's 2nd "bad" year - still batted .305 w/ .414 obp
I'd like to have a couple bad years like those.

I have to disagree w/ Belle being a dissappointment, though - he only hit .328 w/ 48 2b , 49 hr and 152 rbi in '98- sure, the season was a disappointment, but I don't know what more you could expect from Belle.

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
You’re not differentiating between 1B and DH positions. In fantasy land Thomas is your 1B, but in reality, he’s a DH. Konerko plays 1B. Thomas is a DH.

Well, I guess time will tell whether Frank will be a 1B/DH or strictly a DH. It won't matter what you or I think, merely what the new manager thinks.

Your comparison of Thomas and Everett is worthless, IMO. Everett scored most of his runs when batting second for the BoSox. Not unlike Lee who batted in front of Frank and Maggs.

Franks OPS is 80 points higher than Everetts and he scored 6 whopping less runs than the speed demon Everett, and by your own admission, Everett will cost $2M MORE than Frank this year thus making the replacement at cost argument a moot point. Frank finished 13th in the majors in OPS last year. The list of players above him reads like a who's who of baseball and exactly three players make less than $6M on that list (Nixon, Ortiz and Pujols). Pujols is 23 so he is a moot point. I have no idea what the other two will be paid this season, but both are entering their 8th year in the majors which puts them at the beginning of their potential UFA careers.

You aren't proving your point here, merely proving your hatred.

batmanZoSo
10-31-2003, 01:21 PM
voodoo,

I'm pretty sure Everett made 9.15 million last year, so by next season, he should be making 4 million more than Thomas.

AsInWreck
10-31-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I.

WALK = BASEHIT.

Would you have made the same dumb-ass statement if each and every one of Thomas' walks was a single instead?

Though I don't disagree w/ your defense of Frank, I have to object to the myth that a walk is as good as a hit. In some situations, perhaps, but you can't advance a runner from 1st to 3rd on a walk, or score a runner from scoring position, unless of course the bases are loaded. Walks are definitely better than an out, but not quite as good as a hit.

Actually, in some scenerios, a walk may not even be as good as an out, for example, w/ runner on 3rd, 1 out and tie game in bottom of ninth. I'll take a deep fly ball out over a walk there. But that's a relatively rare instance.

poorme
10-31-2003, 01:25 PM
On the other hand, there are outs made on hits....runners (including the batter) trying to advance.

RKMeibalane
10-31-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Though I don't disagree w/ your defense of Frank, I have to object to the myth that a walk is as good as a hit. In some situations, perhaps, but you can't advance a runner from 1st to 3rd on a walk, or score a runner from scoring position, unless of course the bases are loaded. Walks are definitely better than an out, but not quite as good as a hit.

Actually, in some scenerios, a walk may not even be as good as an out, for example, w/ runner on 3rd, 1 out and tie game in bottom of ninth. I'll take a deep fly ball out over a walk there. But that's a relatively rare instance.

You raise some good points. I also would much rather see a flyball with a man on third and less than two outs. Sometimes the situation dictates that a different course of action would be better for the team. Having said that, I don't think anyone can dispute the value of having a player who gets on base roughly forty percent of the time. I'm sure most managers would love to have someone like Frank around for just that reason.

batmanZoSo
10-31-2003, 01:33 PM
RK,

With a runner on third and 1 out, I prefer the Lee/Konerko hard hit ground ball to the third baseman, so he can look the runner back real nice, and the next guy can just strike out.

RKMeibalane
10-31-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
RK,

With a runner on third and 1 out, I prefer the Lee/Konerko hard hit ground ball to the third baseman, so he can look the runner back real nice, and the next guy can just strike out.

Was this supposed to be in teal?

pudge
10-31-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Everett owns Thomas (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/stats/cws_sortable_player_stats.jsp?section1=1&section2=1&section3=1&statSet1=1&statSet2=null&statSet3=null&statType=1&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2003&baseballScope=null&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true&subScope=teamCode&teamPosCode=cha&box3=XXXX123245chaD&box5=XXXX113946chaO&compare.x=34&compare.y=4).

Dude, okay, I think you have some okay points, but this one is a total joke and loses you huge creditibility... Frank rules Everett in OBP and SLG, which have been proven to lead to runs (I hope you've read Moneyball)... you may not see the result in RBIs or Runs scored... let's say Thomas walks, then someone forces him out at 2b, but there's still a runner on first, thanks to Frank... now that runner scores, he gets credited with a run, someone else gets credited with an RBI, but Thomas is the guy who got on base in the first place.

Everett might be close to Thomas, but Everett does not "own" Thomas. If anything, it's the other way around. You are way off base on your whole analysis.

john2499
10-31-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I'm one of those people that would like to see more speed and defense on the Sox.

I'm not going to bother and try to explain why getting someone who hits 40 homers and a .400 OBP is a steal for $6 mil.

Thomas doesn't play second base, so there would be no problem getting Castillo as well.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

bc2k
10-31-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Dude, okay, I think you have some okay points, but this one is a total joke and losses you huge creditibility... Frank rules Everett in OBP and SLG, which have been proven to lead to runs (I hope you've read Moneyball)... you may not see the result in RBIs or Runs scored... let's say Thomas walks, then someone forces him out at 2b, but there's still a runner on first, thanks to Frank... now that runner scores, he gets credited with a run, someone else gets credited with an RBI, but Thomas is the guy who got on base in the first place.

Everett might be close to Thomas, but Everett does not "own" Thomas. If anything, it's the other way around. You are way off base on your whole analysis.

Fair enough, maybe "owns" was too strong of a word, but I still think Everett is a superior baseball player and asset to the White Sox than Thomas.

And I did pick up Moneyball, I just can't get past the first round, or chapter.

maurice
10-31-2003, 02:25 PM
1. How strange that the person comparing Thomas to Castillo objects to others comparing Thomas to Konerko -- two players on the same team who play the same position.

2. Not sure why so many people fail to appreciate the value of a walk. In addition to what already has been posted, a player who walks does not make an out and keeps the inning alive for additional scoring opportunities. He also does not make two outs (GiDP) or hit into a fielder's choice. Finally, he forces the pitcher to throw at least four pitches. In this age of shallow bullpens, starters with bad control, and strict 100 pitch counts, this is a very good thing.

RKMeibalane
10-31-2003, 02:39 PM
It's amazing how certain people believe that a future HOF'er, who is still productive, is inferior to a player who isn't even the best player at his position.

There is absolutely no way that Carl Everett is a better baseball player than Frank Thomas. None whatsoever.

Everett has the edge on Frank in batting average. Frank has advantage over Everett in home runs, runs batted in, slugging percentage, on-base percentage, OPS, etc.

Also... Thomas will be around next season. Everett won't. Therefore, as far as the 2004 White Sox are concerned, this debate has no real validity to it.

JRIG
10-31-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
MYTH #128,233,968 on Thomas: using career numbers to argue that he's guaranteed to hit career average in every year of his career.

lol on the Konerko line.

My point was more that Frank's alleged lack of speed or lack of ability on the basepaths hasn't hurt him previously in his career from scoring runs. Unless you believe that he's lost a bunch of quickness in the past two years (I don't, obviously) I'm not sure how you can argue that Frank will never (or almost never) score from first base and that walks are overvalued. Those walks DID turn into runs in previous years. There's no reason to think thayt won't continue, unless, as I said, you think Frank has fallen off the face of the earth in terms of baserunning ability.

longshot7
10-31-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
I have to disagree w/ Belle being a dissappointment, though - he only hit .328 w/ 48 2b , 49 hr and 152 rbi in '98- sure, the season was a disappointment, but I don't know what more you could expect from Belle.

Not to stray off-topic, but most of Albert's numbers that year came in the 2nd half, after the sox were way out of it.

btw - I'm glad Frank is coming back.

MRKARNO
10-31-2003, 03:00 PM
Because the point obviously didnt get across the first time

:threadsucks

Besides bc2k there are like only 1 or 2 anti-Thomas people here and all of their arguements are flawed including bc2k. This conversation is stupid. Frank is signed for next year and he ain't going anywhere unless he wants to for 2 more years

RKMeibalane
10-31-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Because the point obviously didnt get across the first time

:threadsucks

Besides bc2k there are like only 1 or 2 anti-Thomas people here and all of their arguements are flawed including bc2k. This conversation is stupid. Frank is signed for next year and he ain't going anywhere unless he wants to for 2 more years

Thank you. As PHG often points out, I have yet to see any of the Frank-haters make a logical, well-thought-out argument that contains valid reasons why Frank's presence is detrimental to the team. Most of their statments contain little factual information.

FarWestChicago
10-31-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Dude, okay, I think you have some okay points, but this one is a total joke and losses you huge creditibility... OMG!!! I'm dying here. What credibility? There is only one debate about bc2k. Which should be his avatar?

:whoflungpoo

or

:troll

It's always been that way and obviously always will be...

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 04:28 PM
I understand your point as well. I like what Frank has done in the past but looking forward do we really need him? I don't think so. In a way he is our Manny Ramirez. Manny's contract is to Boston as Frank's is to us. We can never unload him. Is he worth 6 million? If you take his numbers and just look at them then you may have a case for him. As a person, a leader, and a teammate I really dont think he is worth 6 million. Why do you think we can't trade him? Why do you think no one else wants him? He is not worth the 6 million. That is the only reason. I would much rather have J.T. Snow at first base and Konerko as our DH. Then we could sign Castillo. Right side of our defensive infield would be awesome and we would have a couple of good hitters and more speed. I would really love to hear how anyone thinks Frank is worth 6 million other than you people want to see him finish his career here. 42 homers? phht! I don't give a ****!

JRIG
10-31-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
I understand your point as well. I like what Frank has done in the past but looking forward do we really need him? I don't think so. In a way he is our Manny Ramirez. Manny's contract is to Boston as Frank's is to us. We can never unload him. Is he worth 6 million? If you take his numbers and just look at them then you may have a case for him. As a person, a leader, and a teammate I really dont think he is worth 6 million. Why do you think we can't trade him? Why do you think no one else wants him? He is not worth the 6 million. That is the only reason. I would much rather have J.T. Snow at first base and Konerko as our DH. Then we could sign Castillo. Right side of our defensive infield would be awesome and we would have a couple of good hitters and more speed. I would really love to hear how anyone thinks Frank is worth 6 million other than you people want to see him finish his career here. 42 homers? phht! I don't give a ****!


Just to clarify; at a position where defense means about as much as chewed up gum, you want this guy:

G AB R H 2B HR RBI BB K AVG OBP SLG OPS
2001 101 285 43 70 12 8 34 55 81 .246 .371 .379 .750
2002 143 422 47 104 26 6 53 59 90 .246 .344 .360 .704
2003 103 330 48 90 18 8 51 55 55 .273 .387 .418 .806

And not one of the best hitters of all time who still almost had a .400 OBP last year and still slugged about .550. Oh, and you want to pair him with this guy,

:walnuts

who will never justify his $8 million salary.

But then again, 42 homer, phht! I mean, Konerko's done that, right? Oh, well Mags has done that, right? Oh, well Lee must have done that at some point, right? Oh, well for sure J.T. Snow has done it, right?

Bobby Thigpen
10-31-2003, 04:56 PM
My point IS and always has been that you cannot have Frank on your team and expect to win anything. The man is simply not a team player, and you can not win anything without team players. Ask George and the Yankees right now how much those all stars mean to them now. Frank cannot function on a daily basis with other people because in the Frank universe there is no other people. To argue against this is arguing against years and years of selfish comments made both by him and others about him.

I can't argue that PK is overpaid and Frank is underrpaid, because based on last year's numbers and their career numbers it would be assinine to do so. I just argue that there is more to the Frank problem than numbers. Sure we could argue all day long about his slugging, OBP, OPS, whatever the hell you want, and you'll probably win. I just don't think keeping Frank will do a damn thing for this team other than rob it of salary that could be used for pitching, or a good centerfielder. I would be interested in Frank's numbers in pressure situations. I don't think they're that good. But then again I'm probably wrong.

Another thing, I don't "hate" Frank. I just think that he needs to move on if the Sox ever expect to do something big. Great, he's going to finish his career on the south side. I can gurantee you it will be without a ring. The man just can't be a part of a team. It's all about Frank and that's the only way it will ever be. That is why he should be gone

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
I understand your point as well. I like what Frank has done in the past but looking forward do we really need him?

Um, yeah. I never thought it was a bad thing when the best hitter on the team returns. If he's such a liability, why didn't anyone on our roster have a higher OPS or have more runs created than Frank?


I don't think so. In a way he is our Manny Ramirez. Manny's contract is to Boston as Frank's is to us.

That has to be one of the dumbest analogies I have ever read. Thomas is guaranteed 17.5 million on the remainder of his contract (the same as GIDPaul, and less than what multiple players like Mo Vaughn make in a single year), while Manny is guaranteed 100 million over the remainder of his contract. Do you not understand the difference between 82.5 million dollars?

We can never unload him.

I would hope they didn't want to unload the best hitter on the team this past season. Getting rid of your best hitter and replacing him with someone of lesser value is a good plan if you're looking to regress as an offense, which was already only 7th in the league in runs scored.


Is he worth 6 million?

Why do you think we can't trade him?

A little something known as the 10 and 5 rule. He can veto any trade because he is a 10 year veteran and been on the team for over 5 years.


Why do you think no one else wants him?

Umm, you're basing this on what? He didn't even have a chance to test the free agent market this season. That's why the Sox included that Frank would only have a 5 day window after the World Series to decide whether or not he will accept the option. He and his agent never got a full grasp on the interest he would receive from other teams.

He is not worth the 6 million.

I agree. He is worth more.

I would much rather have J.T. Snow at first base and Konerko as our DH.

I'd like to see you make a case for GIDPaul being worth 8 million as a DH, if Thomas isn't worth 6 million.

And J.T. Snow? Wasn't he outplayed by a 42 year old this season? Baseball is half runs scored and half runs allowed. Considering pitching makes up a large portion of runs allowed, and there are 7 other defensive postions more important than 1st base, I honestly don't give a damn how good our 1st basemen is defensively.

Then we could sign Castillo. Right side of our defensive infield would be awesome

I'd like to see how many runs this laughable offense would score in 2004.

and we would have a couple of good hitters and more speed.

Yeah, in a dream world, every player we covet would come play for us, and for much less than market value.

I would really love to hear how anyone thinks Frank is worth 6 million other than you people want to see him finish his career here. 42 homers? phht! I don't give a ****! [/B]

How many non BC2K posts in this thread have you read? Lots of people made great arguments as to why Thomas is an asset to this team, and their arguments had far fewer holes in them than your poorly constructed rhetoric.

JRIG
10-31-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
My point IS and always has been that you cannot have Frank on your team and expect to win anything. The man is simply not a team player, and you can not win anything without team players. Ask George and the Yankees right now how much those all stars mean to them now. Frank cannot function on a daily basis with other people because in the Frank universe there is no other people. To argue against this is arguing against years and years of selfish comments made both by him and others about him.


George and the Yankees won 4 World Series with those All-Star players. Incredibly enough, having players who are judged to be some of the best in baseball does help win championships occasionally.

Bobby Thigpen
10-31-2003, 05:06 PM
George and the Yankees won 4 World Series with those All-Star players. Incredibly enough, having players who are judged to be some of the best in baseball does help win championships occasionally.

You can also win quite a few with a TEAM, something Frank can't comprehend. Ask the Marlins and the Angels how that idea worked for them.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
My point IS and always has been that you cannot have Frank on your team and expect to win anything. The man is simply not a team player, and you can not win anything without team players. Ask George and the Yankees right now how much those all stars mean to them now. Frank cannot function on a daily basis with other people because in the Frank universe there is no other people. To argue against this is arguing against years and years of selfish comments made both by him and others about him.

Don't Rickey Henderson and Jose Canseco both have World Series rings?

Jose Conseco is a guy who got caught stealing 8 consecutive times to end the 1998 season (He finished with 29 SBs), because he wanted another 30/30 season.

And as far as Rickey goes, what else can you say about a guy who constantly refers to himself in the third person?

AsInWreck
10-31-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
George and the Yankees won 4 World Series with those All-Star players. Incredibly enough, having players who are judged to be some of the best in baseball does help win championships occasionally.

Most of those players for the yankees champion teams had a couple of things in common, too. Fundamentals, a strong arm, and good defense. That's the difference between a great player and a great hitter.

Bobby Thigpen
10-31-2003, 05:25 PM
I will agree that both of those players are extremely selfish, much like Frank. I will argue this however, did either of them ever say that they were going to start swinging for the fences in a pennant race because they wanted to "set the tone"? Did either of them ever admit openly that they no longer cared about moving runners over, but that they were at the point of their careers that they shouldn't worry about things like that and that it was time for them to worry about themselves like Frank did last summer? NO.

Another thing, both of those guys were in the middle of their prime. Something Frank is obviously on the other side of.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
[B]I will agree that both of those players are extremely selfish, much like Frank. I will argue this however, did either of them ever say that they were going to start swinging for the fences in a pennant race because they wanted to "set the tone"?

Who cares if they did or didn't? Thomas finished second in the league in homeruns, so I'd say he was pretty successful at what he was trying to do.

Did either of them ever admit openly that they no longer cared about moving runners over, but that they were at the point of their careers that they shouldn't worry about things like that and that it was time for them to worry about themselves like Frank did last summer? NO.

Probably not, but I don't remember Frank saying that either. Please link an article with that quote.

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I will agree that both of those players are extremely selfish, much like Frank. I will argue this however, did either of them ever say that they were going to start swinging for the fences in a pennant race because they wanted to "set the tone"? Did either of them ever admit openly that they no longer cared about moving runners over, but that they were at the point of their careers that they shouldn't worry about things like that and that it was time for them to worry about themselves like Frank did last summer? NO.

Another thing, both of those guys were in the middle of their prime. Something Frank is obviously on the other side of.

Frank never said that. You are misquoting him to suit your needs. Frank said he would try to do damage when he got pitches to hit because it seemed to be good for the team (he was right - as soon as he changed his philosophy, the Sox got hot). In addition, he did go up the middle several times late in the season to drive in runners from second or third.

I am trying to stay out of this because I really have little else that to say that I haven't already said, but when someone is going to make stuff up just to try and prove a bad point to begin with, it needs to be addressed.

Find a link to those quotes if you can... I am damned sure they don't exist...

Bobby Thigpen
10-31-2003, 05:36 PM
I don't have a link because I did not read them, I heard him say them on the radio before a game in the middle of the year. I suppose that means they didn't happen?

CubKilla
10-31-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I don't have a link because I did not read them, I heard him say them on the radio before a game in the middle of the year. I suppose that means they didn't happen?

I guess no one here remembers Hawk and DJ discussing Frank's new "approach" at the plate during the second half of 2003? If you don't, Thiggy had the gist of it.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I don't have a link because I did not read them, I heard him say them on the radio before a game in the middle of the year

ROFL



Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I suppose that means they didn't happen?

Yep.

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I don't have a link because I did not read them, I heard him say them on the radio before a game in the middle of the year. I suppose that means they didn't happen?

I remember the quotes in the paper. I just think your memory is influenced by your belief that Frank is bad for the team.

Memory is always subjective. I don't think you are intentionally misrepresenting what you heard, but I doubt that is what was actually said.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen

Another thing, both of those guys were in the middle of their prime. Something Frank is obviously on the other side of.

Row, row, row, your boat......

You are back peddling now. So now it's ok to be "extremely selfish", only if you are in your prime?

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
I guess no one here remembers Hawk and DJ discussing Frank's new "approach" at the plate during the second half of 2003? If you don't, Thiggy had the gist of it.

Aside from the "no longer cared about moving runners over, but that they were at the point of their careers that they shouldn't worry about things like that and that it was time for them to worry about themselves", I remember the quotes too.

Frank said he wanted to hit homeruns when he got pitches to hit because it worked out better for the team. He was 100% right.

CubKilla
10-31-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Frank said he wanted to hit homeruns when he got pitches to hit because it worked out better for the team. He was 100% right.

The problem quickly became Frank swinging for a HR on every pitch..... not just the ones he could hit. I happen to think Frank is more of an asset to this team when he is spraying the ball to all fields like he did in his prime. Swinging for a HR every AB is selfish and, ultimately, detrimental to the team.

I will point out though that Thomas was far from the only White Sox player with this philosophy.

Dub25
10-31-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Thank you. As PHG often points out, I have yet to see any of the Frank-haters make a logical, well-thought-out argument that contains valid reasons why Frank's presence is detrimental to the team. Most of their statments contain little factual information.


And the only arguments coming from the pro-Frank camp is all the wonderful things he did in the past. The past. I'am looking towards the future and the 6 million certainly could have helped the team in other areas. A defense up the middle would be nice especially since all of the Frank lovers probably hate the idea of Rowand in center. A lot of posts seem to be against Valentin at short in which I agree with and Alomar coming back is not a garuntee. And just because Frank hit 42 homers doesn't mean he was the best hitter last year. I think Carlos and Mags are better all around hitters. I'am not going to go dig the exact stats but Mags was somewhere around 50 points higher than Frank. I know it may not sound like it but I love Frank and I appriciate everything he has done in Sox uniform but as a recent post pointed out it is time for him to move on and he would have done the team a favor.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
And the only arguments coming from the pro-Frank camp is all the wonderful things he did in the past.

Um, yeah. Are we supposed to back up arguments using stats from the future? I don't see too many pro-Thomas people backing him up using anything but 2003 numbers, and I don't consider that to be the distant past.

. And just because Frank hit 42 homers doesn't mean he was the best hitter last year. I think Carlos and Mags are better all around hitters.

Huh? Where did anyone say he was the best hitter on the team because he had the most homeruns?

How about OPS? How about Runs Created? Here's some unbiased, objective sources that back up that Frank was the best hitter on the team in 2003:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/alb03.htm
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/eqa.html#tmsort
http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinteam.html#cws

I'am not going to go dig the exact stats but Mags was somewhere around 50 points higher than Frank. I know it may not sound like it but I love Frank and I appriciate everything he has done in Sox uniform but as a recent post pointed out it is time for him to move on and he would have done the team a favor.

Find a guy for less than 6 million who is as good as a hitter as Frank was in 2003.

Bobby Thigpen
10-31-2003, 06:09 PM
You are back peddling now. So now it's ok to be "extremely selfish", only if you are in your prime?

No, it's never alright to be extremely selfish. I was just trying to point out that the team was successful because those two players, who were and are as selfish as Frank is were in the prime of their careers.

Bobby Thigpen
10-31-2003, 06:12 PM
Aside from the "no longer cared about moving runners over, but that they were at the point of their careers that they shouldn't worry about things like that and that it was time for them to worry about themselves", I remember the quotes too.

I'm sorry, but I distinctly remember Frank saying something along the lines of that it was his contract year and that it was time for him to quit worry about taking walks and hitting to right field to move runners over and that it was time to "air it out". I know that is pretty much word for word. Believe me, the moment I heard them I commited them to memory because they say everything about Frank that I need to know.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I'm sorry, but I distinctly remember Frank saying something along the lines of that it was his contract year and that it was time for him to quit worry about taking walks and hitting to right field to move runners over and that it was time to "air it out". I know that is pretty much word for word. Believe me, the moment I heard them I commited them to memory because they say everything about Frank that I need to know.

At least you can't be accused of getting off-topic, since what you've written up there has a very high correlation with the subject title of this thread. :gulp:

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Um, yeah. I never thought it was a bad thing when the best hitter on the team returns. If he's such a liability, why didn't anyone on our roster have a higher OPS or have more runs created than Frank?




That has to be one of the dumbest analogies I have ever read. Thomas is guaranteed 17.5 million on the remainder of his contract (the same as GIDPaul, and less than what multiple players like Mo Vaughn make in a single year), while Manny is guaranteed 100 million over the remainder of his contract. Do you not understand the difference between 82.5 million dollars?



I would hope they didn't want to unload the best hitter on the team this past season. Getting rid of your best hitter and replacing him with someone of lesser value is a good plan if you're looking to regress as an offense, which was already only 7th in the league in runs scored.






A little something known as the 10 and 5 rule. He can veto any trade because he is a 10 year veteran and been on the team for over 5 years.




Umm, you're basing this on what? He didn't even have a chance to test the free agent market this season. That's why the Sox included that Frank would only have a 5 day window after the World Series to decide whether or not he will accept the option. He and his agent never got a full grasp on the interest he would receive from other teams.



I agree. He is worth more.



I'd like to see you make a case for GIDPaul being worth 8 million as a DH, if Thomas isn't worth 6 million.

And J.T. Snow? Wasn't he outplayed by a 42 year old this season? Baseball is half runs scored and half runs allowed. Considering pitching makes up a large portion of runs allowed, and there are 7 other defensive postions more important than 1st base, I honestly don't give a damn how good our 1st basemen is defensively.



I'd like to see how many runs this laughable offense would score in 2004.



Yeah, in a dream world, every player we covet would come play for us, and for much less than market value.



How many non BC2K posts in this thread have you read? Lots of people made great arguments as to why Thomas is an asset to this team, and their arguments had far fewer holes in them than your poorly constructed rhetoric.

Wow you have little to do with you time.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Wow you have little to do with you time.

What a great argument. I applaud you.

It may have taken you a while to digest my post (probably 30 minutes), but it didn't take that long to type up.

Odd that you couldn't dispute anything I wrote.

poorme
10-31-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I'm sorry, but I distinctly remember Frank saying something along the lines of that it was his contract year and that it was time for him to quit worry about taking walks and hitting to right field to move runners over and that it was time to "air it out".

HOF hitters don't give up AB's to move runners up.

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
What a great argument. I applaud you.

It may have taken you a while to digest my post (probably 30 minutes), but it didn't take that long to type up.

Odd that you couldn't dispute anything I wrote.

And the hostility

PaleHoseGeorge
10-31-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
And the hostility

I'm suddenly reminded of that classic bit from Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the completely dismembered knight screams, "Come back here and I'll bite your ankle!"

:smile:

Daver
10-31-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
And the hostility

You make a crack about someone having nothing better to do with their time and then cop an attitude when they answer back in kind?

That is usually the sign of someone that can't debate the topic,so it is time to shift tactics.

AsInWreck
10-31-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Who cares if they did or didn't? Thomas finished second in the league in homeruns, so I'd say he was pretty successful at what he was trying to do.



Player HR Runs Produced
Thomas 43 150
S. Stewart 13 150
S. Green 19 150
J. Encarnacion 19 155
O. Cabrera 17 158
I. Rodriguez 16 159
J. Conine 20 163
Matsui 16 172
R. Wynn 11 167
R. Ibanez 18 167
B. Abreu 20 180

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Um, yeah. I never thought it was a bad thing when the best hitter on the team returns. If he's such a liability, why didn't anyone on our roster have a higher OPS or have more runs created than Frank?

Your such a stat head. Unfortunately the game is played on the field and not in a computer generated game. This real life game is based on pitching, defense, base running and timely hitting. Hmm, all of which Frank has none of the above.




Originally posted by Deadguy
That has to be one of the dumbest analogies I have ever read. Thomas is guaranteed 17.5 million on the remainder of his contract (the same as GIDPaul, and less than what multiple players like Mo Vaughn make in a single year), while Manny is guaranteed 100 million over the remainder of his contract. Do you not understand the difference between 82.5 million dollars?

Lets see the White Sox payroll is going to be what? 60 mil? and Frank is 6mil? The Red Sox payroll will be what? 110? Manny is 17 mil? pretty comparitive if you look at it that way, dont you think?


Originally posted by Deadguy
I would hope they didn't want to unload the best hitter on the team this past season. Getting rid of your best hitter and replacing him with someone of lesser value is a good plan if you're looking to regress as an offense, which was already only 7th in the league in runs scored.

I didnt think our offense was all that great because of Thomas. It started clicking once Robbie and Everett came aboard. Before that Lee was carrying this team offensively. Bring out all the numbers you want, Lee is the better player.




Originally posted by Deadguy
A little something known as the 10 and 5 rule. He can veto any trade because he is a 10 year veteran and been on the team for over 5 years.

Oh, umm, I would like to test that one out. If he is going to a winning team I bet he takes it. I question Frank's loyalty as well as his overall character.


Originally posted by Deadguy
Umm, you're basing this on what? He didn't even have a chance to test the free agent market this season. That's why the Sox included that Frank would only have a 5 day window after the World Series to decide whether or not he will accept the option. He and his agent never got a full grasp on the interest he would receive from other teams.

Trust me if he was still a big time player 2 days is more than enough to see what kind of intrest you are getting. You think if he was our best player there wouldnt be a team lookingfor him.


Originally posted by Deadguy
I agree. He is worth more.

Rob Nyer was recently on the morning ESPN show and said he isnt worth it. He pointed out players like David Ortiz and Kevin Millar that we could have had for a mil. Perfectly fine DHs. He is overpaid for his position and what he does. He is one dimensional. OVERPAID!


Originally posted by Deadguy
I'd like to see you make a case for GIDPaul being worth 8 million as a DH, if Thomas isn't worth 6 million.

I don't even want Konerko, but we can't get rid of him. He will mst likely have a better year than last year, but there is no way he will ever be worth 8 mil. I don't think I ever said he was. However, no one will even touch Konerko at the moment and, as others have pointed out, it would be stupid to trade someone on a low. You sell high and buy low. You wouldnt be doing that in this case.

Originally posted by Deadguy
And J.T. Snow? Wasn't he outplayed by a 42 year old this season? Baseball is half runs scored and half runs allowed. Considering pitching makes up a large portion of runs allowed, and there are 7 other defensive postions more important than 1st base, I honestly don't give a damn how good our 1st basemen is defensively.

OK fine, then trade for Nick Johnson. Do what you have to do. I was just throwing a name out there that would be better on defense, give us a good bat and decent speed. It didnt have to be JT Snow. Even though his team made the playoffs and ours didnt.


Originally posted by Deadguy
I'd like to see how many runs this laughable offense would score in 2004.

Hmm, if you have speed... Castillo, Reed... at the top of your order then the runs will come. I don't need 42 home runs in order to score runs. Ask the Marlins how they did it. Even when Lowell was hurt they seemed to put enough runs on the board to win.

Originally posted by Deadguy
Yeah, in a dream world, every player we covet would come play for us, and for much less than market value.

Who would that be? What the hell are you talking about?

Originally posted by Deadguy
How many non BC2K posts in this thread have you read? Lots of people made great arguments as to why Thomas is an asset to this team, and their arguments had far fewer holes in them than your poorly constructed rhetoric.


I havent seen any other than ones that want him to finish his career here, which I couldnt care less about. Wow this post is long as hell!

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Daver
You make a crack about someone having nothing better to do with their time and then cop an attitude when they answer back in kind?

That is usually the sign of someone that can't debate the topic,so it is time to shift tactics.

Wow, excuse me sir.

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Player HR Runs Produced
Thomas 43 150
S. Stewart 13 150
S. Green 19 150
J. Encarnacion 19 155
O. Cabrera 17 158
I. Rodriguez 16 159
J. Conine 20 163
Matsui 16 172
R. Wynn 11 167
R. Ibanez 18 167
B. Abreu 20 180


I guess that shows how sad our team really was. Thomas lead our team in Runs Produced? Green had a horrible year and was tied with him. Wynn? Stewart? That is a worthless stat.

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm suddenly reminded of that classic bit from Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the completely dismembered knight screams, "Come back here and I'll bite your ankle!"

:smile:


THATS AWESOME!!!!

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Just to clarify; at a position where defense means about as much as chewed up gum, you want this guy:

G AB R H 2B HR RBI BB K AVG OBP SLG OPS
2001 101 285 43 70 12 8 34 55 81 .246 .371 .379 .750
2002 143 422 47 104 26 6 53 59 90 .246 .344 .360 .704
2003 103 330 48 90 18 8 51 55 55 .273 .387 .418 .806

And not one of the best hitters of all time who still almost had a .400 OBP last year and still slugged about .550. Oh, and you want to pair him with this guy,

:walnuts

who will never justify his $8 million salary.

But then again, 42 homer, phht! I mean, Konerko's done that, right? Oh, well Mags has done that, right? Oh, well Lee must have done that at some point, right? Oh, well for sure J.T. Snow has done it, right?

I dont actually need or want JT Snow, I was just throwing a player out there that we can have for relatively nothing. But do what you can with that. Go get Nick Johnson or whomever you like. Konerko is on this team like it or not. We are not getting rid of him. His value is way too low. So do I want to pair anyone up with him? NO! Do I have a choice? NO! So we live with that. Why are you so concerned about who hits the most homers? I could care less! Homers mean nothing to me. It is just a stat. RBIS and RUNS I like. HRs,phht, I dont give a ****! It means nothing.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
[B]Your such a stat head. Unfortunately the game is played on the field and not in a computer generated game. This real life game is based on pitching, defense, base running and timely hitting. Hmm, all of which Frank has none of the above.

The game is played on the field. Your calculator just tells you what you saw.




Lets see the White Sox payroll is going to be what? 60 mil? and Frank is 6mil? The Red Sox payroll will be what? 110? Manny is 17 mil? pretty comparitive if you look at it that way, dont you think?

No, I don't think. Boston has a multi-year, 100 million dollar commitment to Manny. The Sox have a 17.5 million dollar commitment to Frank over 2 years, worst case scenario. There is not nearly as much of a risk with Frank's contract as there is with Manny's



Trust me if he was still a big time player 2 days is more than enough to see what kind of intrest you are getting. You think if he was our best player there wouldnt be a team lookingfor him.

Buy a freaking clue. Teams aren't even allowed to talk to players or agents at this point. That is known as tampering, and is illegal. There is no way for Thomas or his agent to have a full grasp on what kind of interest he would receive on the open market. And where did I say Thomas was our best player?




Rob Nyer was recently on the morning ESPN show and said he isnt worth it. He pointed out players like David Ortiz and Kevin Millar that we could have had for a mil. Perfectly fine DHs. He is overpaid for his position and what he does. He is one dimensional. OVERPAID!

And you know these players want to play on the southside for around 1 million? These players had years like they had never had before, and their salaries will rise.

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy

And you know these players want to play on the southside for around 1 million? These players had years like they had never had before, and their salaries will rise.

Look at the big brain on Brett!! Alright brainiac, time for you to buy a freaking clue. Where did I say they would be signing that this year? These are 2 players that were signed for a mil or less LAST YEAR just to DH. There are players like that every damn year. It is our job to find them. Frank is highly overpaid AT HIS POSITION! He is a one dimensional player. FOR CHRIST'S SAKE MAN HE IS A DAMN DH!!!! NAME ANOTHER DH THAT IS GETTING PAID 6 MIL OR MORE? Well maybe Giambi next year, but that is not for sure yet. That is all I have to say. Hasta Luego!

AsInWreck
10-31-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
I guess that shows how sad our team really was. Thomas lead our team in Runs Produced? Green had a horrible year and was tied with him. Wynn? Stewart? That is a worthless stat.

Actually, Lee had 182 to lead the team, 165 for maggs and 157 for Everett.

Even Rowand, produced more runs per 100 PA than Thomas, at 24.4 per 100 for Rowand compared to 23.2 per 100 for Thomas.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Look at the big brain on Brett!! Alright brainiac, time for you to buy a freaking clue.

Um, ok.....


It is our job to find them.

For some reason, I pictured your job more closely associated with janitorial services at the local 7-11.

Frank is highly overpaid AT HIS POSITION! [/B]

Not really, since he's the best at his position.

He is a one dimensional player. FOR CHRIST'S SAKE MAN HE IS A DAMN DH!!!! NAME ANOTHER DH THAT IS GETTING PAID 6 MIL OR MORE? Well maybe Giambi next year, but that is not for sure yet. That is all I have to say. Hasta Luego! [/B]

Well, there was Giambi, who made 11.5 million in 2003.
Dmitri Young - 6.75 million in 2003
Rafael Palmeiro - 9 million in 2003
Mike Sweeney - 11 million in 2003
David Segui - 6.7 million in 2003
Ellis Burks - 7.1 million in 2003
Ben Grieve - 5.5 million in 2003
Dean Palmer - 8 million in 2003

Check....mate. :)

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Um, ok.....




For some reason, I pictured your job more closely associated with janitorial services at the local 7-11.



Not really, since he's the best at his position.



Well, there was Giambi, who made 11.5 million in 2003.
Dmitri Young - 6.75 million in 2003
Rafael Palmeiro - 9 million in 2003
Mike Sweeney - 11 million in 2003
David Segui - 6.7 million in 2003
Ellis Burks - 7.1 million in 2003
Ben Grieve - 5.5 million in 2003
Dean Palmer - 8 million in 2003

Check....mate. :)

First of all what the hell is the janitorial job reference supposed to mean? That is just odd. Daver, is this something that is ok with you? I remember you saying something about personal attacks. Is this not one?

Anyways, I would take Sweeney, Giambi, and Palmiero out of this equation automatically jst because they are primarily 1Bs. Franks is a DH and that is all. That leaves us with Young, Segui, Burks, Grieve, and Palmer. I would say every single one of them is overpaid. Where did you get that list anyway? Did you go to ESPN and look up DHs then look up everyone that was paid at or around Frank's salary? Good job, but you are way off here. My point is this. For what Frank does and for his position, you can get about equivilant for a lot less. I think for a team that consistently cries poor it would be ideal to do that. You people are still not taking into account his personality. He is not the greatest teammate, clubhouse guy, or leader. From what I have seen of hiim in his 14 years with us is a selfish guy. He is motivated by individual stats. Remember this past year when he said he is just going to hit for power. Get his HRs. Well I am glad you want a player like that.

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Actually, Lee had 182 to lead the team, 165 for maggs and 157 for Everett.

Even Rowand, produced more runs per 100 PA than Thomas, at 24.4 per 100 for Rowand compared to 23.2 per 100 for Thomas.

Cool, thanks AsInWreck. Even more of a reason not to need Frank on this team.

JRIG
10-31-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
I dont actually need or want JT Snow, I was just throwing a player out there that we can have for relatively nothing. But do what you can with that. Go get Nick Johnson or whomever you like. Konerko is on this team like it or not. We are not getting rid of him. His value is way too low. So do I want to pair anyone up with him? NO! Do I have a choice? NO! So we live with that. Why are you so concerned about who hits the most homers? I could care less! Homers mean nothing to me. It is just a stat. RBIS and RUNS I like. HRs,phht, I dont give a ****! It means nothing.

RBIs and Runs are stats based completely on what your teammates do. Frank can't get an RBI if no one is one base (unless he hits a HR) and he can't score a run if nobody is hitting behind him.

RBIs go up when guys get on base ahead of you. Having Alomar lead off and Lee in the 2 hole is not a good way to do that. Runs (as a personal stat) go up when guys hit well behind you. Having Mags and GIDPaul hit into 40-odd double plays is not condusive to increasing run totals.

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
RBIs and Runs are stats based completely on what your teammates do. Frank can't get an RBI if no one is one base (unless he hits a HR) and he can't score a run if nobody is hitting behind him.

RBIs go up when guys get on base ahead of you. Having Alomar lead off and Lee in the 2 hole is not a good way to do that. Runs (as a personal stat) go up when guys hit well behind you. Having Mags and GIDPaul hit into 40-odd double plays is not condusive to increasing run totals.


You make a good point, however, they can also prove that you are a timely hitter and that you can run the bases well.

JRIG
10-31-2003, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
You make a good point, however, they can also prove that you are a timely hitter and that you can run the bases well.

Frank had "only" 105 RBIs last year. Does that mean he wasn't a "timely" hitter? Well...

Runners on: .326/.464/.657
RISP: .280/.440/.544
RISP, 2 out: .305/.423/525
Close and late: .303/.415/.645

It appears that Frank hit a lot better in "timely" situations. If guys actually got on base ahead of him, he would have had a lot more RBIs.

batmanZoSo
10-31-2003, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Frank said he wanted to hit homeruns when he got pitches to hit because it worked out better for the team. He was 100% right.

Correct. Frank always settled for a base hit or a gapper, but with his new approach, I think we're gonna see a 50 homer season out of him. He knows he can't hit .330 anymore, so why try? He can sure still hit the long ball, so I say go for it. Guys who worry about their batting average are the most selfish.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
First of all what the hell is the janitorial job reference supposed to mean? That is just odd. Daver, is this something that is ok with you? I remember you saying something about personal attacks. Is this not one?

Oh boo hoo. So I like to overstate the obvious. Sue me. You're no saint, with your childish cap locked rant in the post I was responding to.

Anyways, I would take Sweeney, Giambi, and Palmiero out of this equation automatically jst because they are primarily 1Bs.

Um, not in 2003. Sweeney and Palmeiro played a majority of their games at DH, and Giambi played just less than half.

Where did you get that list anyway? Did you go to ESPN and look up DHs then look up everyone that was paid at or around Frank's salary? Good job,

A compliment from you means a lot

You asked me to name just one DH who made more than 6 million. I named several, proving my point that Frank is a bargain.

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Frank had "only" 105 RBIs last year. Does that mean he wasn't a "timely" hitter? Well...

Runners on: .326/.464/.657
RISP: .280/.440/.544
RISP, 2 out: .305/.423/525
Close and late: .303/.415/.645

It appears that Frank hit a lot better in "timely" situations. If guys actually got on base ahead of him, he would have had a lot more RBIs.

OK RIG. You are making me change my mind here. If we keep Frank, then what do we do with Konerko? I mean we can't have these guys just cloggin up the bases. Even Mags is not a great baserunner. What can we do about that? We don't just need speed, but we need good baserunners. Would you sign Cameron for a year or 2 to play CF until we developed someone? Maybe sign Castillo. Trade Mags and let Reed play RF? That would get a lot of speed here.

Our order would then be:

2B Catillo
RF Reed
DH Thomas
LF Lee
SS Valentin/Kaz Matsui?(YAY!)
1B Konerko
CF Cameron
3B Crede
C Olivo

Relatively cheap team. A lot of potential with pretty good defense and speed. Now, I think we may need a lefty to break it up in there, but who?

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Correct. Frank always settled for a base hit or a gapper, but with his new approach, I think we're gonna see a 50 homer season out of him. He knows he can't hit .330 anymore, so why try? He can sure still hit the long ball, so I say go for it. Guys who worry about their batting average are the most selfish.

You just know that these exact same people were screaming that Frank needs to stop being such a selective hitter and start jacking the ball out of the park a few years ago.

Frank will never be good enough for them. They have made up their minds.

I simply loved the argument that Nothing can be done with Konerko, we are stuck with him - hence we might as well accept it, move on and get over it...

Uh Frank bashers... do I really need to type this next line?

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Oh boo hoo. So I like to overstate the obvious. Sue me. You're no saint, with your childish cap locked rant in the post I was responding to.


You asked me to name just one DH who made more than 6 million. I named several, proving my point that Frank is a bargain.


Um, no, I didn't once personally attack you.

First of all you are way off on my profession, I am a network administrator for a bank in downtown Chicago. However, I don't take kindly to your remarks. I don't like personal attacks like that and I believe something should be done about that.

2nd, you never really proved your point very well. With all the stats you spewed out, nothing really impressed me or would even make me think twice about it. However, JRIG did present some impressive information and did make me change my mind about Frank.

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You just know that these exact same people were screaming that Frank needs to stop being such a selective hitter and start jacking the ball out of the park a few years ago.

Frank will never be good enough for them. They have made up their minds.

I simply loved the argument that Nothing can be done with Konerko, we are stuck with him - hence we might as well accept it, move on and get over it...

Uh Frank bashers... do I really need to type this next line?

You are right Voodooo, I remember when people said that. "He is a huge guy and he only hits 35 homers a year?" Actually I like that guy. I liked the old Frank. He had a mean streak. He had a different look in his eye. I don't know, but I like a player that can hit .330 with 35 homers. That's just me.

JRIG
10-31-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
OK RIG. You are making me change my mind here. If we keep Frank, then what do we do with Konerko? I mean we can't have these guys just cloggin up the bases. Even Mags is not a great baserunner. What can we do about that? We don't just need speed, but we need good baserunners. Would you sign Cameron for a year or 2 to play CF until we developed someone? Maybe sign Castillo. Trade Mags and let Reed play RF? That would get a lot of speed here.

Our order would then be:

2B Catillo
RF Reed
DH Thomas
LF Lee
SS Valentin/Kaz Matsui?(YAY!)
1B Konerko
CF Cameron
3B Crede
C Olivo

Relatively cheap team. A lot of potential with pretty good defense and speed. Now, I think we may need a lefty to break it up in there, but who?

I've gone on the record saying the Sox #1 priority should be to sign Luis Castillo. Frankly, I think that takes care of a lot of our problems. I would hand Reed the starting CF job. I think Valentin will come back for a reasonable price. He's not perfect, but he'll do.

2B Castillo
CF Reed
1B Thomas
RF Ordonez
LF Lee
DH Konerko
SS Valentin
3B Crede
C Olivo

Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland, Rauch, and Pedro Astacio -- (probably around $2 million coming off an injury, no?)

Marte, Ginter, Wunsch, Koch, Steve Reed (800k-ish?), and one more bullpen arm (Al Levine should come pretty cheap).

With bench guys thrown in, that's about $70 million, according to my calculations. Yes, I know Astacio is a risk. But, when working with salary restraints, you've got to do that sometimes.

Daver
10-31-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I would hand Reed the starting CF job.

You want to give the CF position to Reed based on twenty games played at that position in AA?

Reed can hit minor league pitching,but be realistic,he has never faced major league pitching,and is a converted infielder playing in the outfield,and you want to make him the opening day CFer?

I would give a long hard look at Borchard,who has the range and the arm to play the position,in ST before Reed.Borchard should be healed from his tendonitis problems from resting all winter long.

JRIG
10-31-2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Daver
You want to give the CF position to Reed based on twenty games played at that position in AA?

Reed can hit minor league pitching,but be realistic,he has never faced major league pitching,and is a converted infielder playing in the outfield,and you want to make him the opening day CFer?

I would give a long hard look at Borchard,who has the range and the arm to play the position,in ST before Reed.Borchard should be healed from his tendonitis problems from resting all winter long.

I still like Borchard a lot and I expect him to be competing for the job next year too. That said I think Reed will outplay him. Reed is the perfect #2 hitter and hit like a maniac all season long.

I'd be perfectly happy if Borchard beat out Reed in ST. I'm just not sure it will happen.

I'll say this: if Reed or Borchard isn't starting in CF on Opening Day 2004, I will be incredibly disappointed. By that I mean, of course, no Harris or Rowand.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Um, no, I didn't once personally attack you.

First of all you are way off on my profession, I am a network administrator for a bank in downtown Chicago. However, I don't take kindly to your remarks. I don't like personal attacks like that and I believe something should be done about that.

I certainly don't apologize, and I'm glad you were hurt by it :D:

2nd, you never really proved your point very well. With all the stats you spewed out, nothing really impressed me or would even make me think twice about it. However, JRIG did present some impressive information and did make me change my mind about Frank. [/B]

Hate to break it to you, but I just scrolled back through this thread, and I never once "spewed" out any stats at you. Show me where I did, outside of listing salaries of other DHs. Not surprising that you were mistaken, since that has already occurred many times in this thread. No wonder you weren't impressed, not that that would mean much to me.

Daver
10-31-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I still like Borchard a lot and I expect him to be competing for the job next year too. That said I think Reed will outplay him. Reed is the perfect #2 hitter and hit like a maniac all season long.

I'd be perfectly happy if Borchard beat out Reed in ST. I'm just not sure it will happen.

I'll say this: if Reed or Borchard isn't starting in CF on Opening Day 2004, I will be incredibly disappointed. By that I mean, of course, no Harris or Rowand.

Reed has never faced major league pitching.

Borchard hit .312 in his short stint with the Sox last season.

JRIG
10-31-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Reed has never faced major league pitching.

Borchard hit .312 in his short stint with the Sox last season.

I'm not sure where your stats are from, but Borchard hit .184 (9-49) with the Sox last year. In 2002 he hit .222 (8-36). Extremely small sample sizes both seasons. I think he'll still be a very good player. But he hasn't set the world on fire in his short stints either.

Daver
10-31-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'm not sure where your stats are from, but Borchard hit .184 (9-49) with the Sox last year. In 2002 he hit .222 (8-36). Extremely small sample sizes both seasons. I think he'll still be a very good player. But he hasn't set the world on fire in his short stints either.

My bad,I was looking at average batting lefty,not overall.

1951Campbell
10-31-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149

despite putting up 43 bombs last year and 105 ribbies...frank still kind of sputtered on offense.


That sentence actually being typed is further proof we've been spoiled the last 14 years.

I'm just sayin' is all.

baseballboy
10-31-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I certainly don't apologize, and I'm glad you were hurt by it :D:



I was never hurt by your comments. Where did I ever say that? I don't even know you to be hurt by you. I do not take kindly to those words however. I also never asked for an apology, but I do think some sort of suspension is in order. Hopefully Daver and Voodoo take this into consideration.

Stats you spewed:

Originally posted by Deadguy
I would hope they didn't want to unload the best hitter on the team this past season. Getting rid of your best hitter and replacing him with someone of lesser value is a good plan if you're looking to regress as an offense, which was already only 7th in the league in runs scored.

Originally posted by Deadguy
IWho cares if they did or didn't? Thomas finished second in the league in homeruns, so I'd say he was pretty successful at what he was trying to do.

Originally posted by Deadguy
Huh? Where did anyone say he was the best hitter on the team because he had the most homeruns?

How about OPS? How about Runs Created? Here's some unbiased, objective sources that back up that Frank was the best hitter on the team in 2003:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/alb03.htm
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/c...eqa.html#tmsort
http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winsh...inteam.html#cws


Originally posted by Deadguy
Um, yeah. I never thought it was a bad thing when the best hitter on the team returns. If he's such a liability, why didn't anyone on our roster have a higher OPS or have more runs created than Frank?

Originally posted by Deadguy
That has to be one of the dumbest analogies I have ever read. Thomas is guaranteed 17.5 million on the remainder of his contract (the same as GIDPaul, and less than what multiple players like Mo Vaughn make in a single year), while Manny is guaranteed 100 million over the remainder of his contract. Do you not understand the difference between 82.5 million dollars?

Iwritecode
10-31-2003, 11:37 PM
I can't believe I read the whole thing...

(wasn't that a commercial at one time? Except it was "ate" instead of "read"???)

Anyway, I am a member of the FOBH and agree with pretty much everything the others have already said, so I won't repeat it here.

My comment has to do with the poll on this thread. The answer is obvious...

Thomas will help this team much more than Castillo will. He's the only one of the two actually ON THE TEAM!!!

Besides, if Castillo was on this team, who would you rather have hitting behind him? FT or GIDPaul??? Considering which player gets on base more and is less likely to GIDP, I know what my choice would be...

Daver
10-31-2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
I also never asked for an apology, but I do think some sort of suspension is in order. Hopefully Daver and Voodoo take this into consideration.



We don't do suspensions here,you work things out between yourselves,this ain't kindergarten.Asking me or Voodoo to step into your battle means you are losing the fight,plain and simple.

Voodoo and I are here to quell pitched battles,not to help you in a personal pissing contest.

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Daver
We don't do suspensions here,you work things out between yourselves,this ain't kindergarten.Asking me or Voodoo to step into your battle means you are losing the fight,plain and simple.

Voodoo and I are here to quell pitched battles,not to help you in a personal pissing contest.

What he said...

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
I I also never asked for an apology, but I do think some sort of suspension is in order. Hopefully Daver and Voodoo take this into consideration.



Umm, yeah, good luck with that, *snicker*.


Originally posted by Deadguy
I would hope they didn't want to unload the best hitter on the team this past season. Getting rid of your best hitter and replacing him with someone of lesser value is a good plan if you're looking to regress as an offense, which was already only 7th in the league in runs scored.


Ummm, yeah, those were some complex stats I "spewed"


Quote:
Originally posted by Deadguy
IWho cares if they did or didn't? Thomas finished second in the league in homeruns, so I'd say he was pretty successful at what he was trying to do.

You were whining about stats that I "spewed" towards you. This post was directed at another poster, mentioning his position on the homerun leaderboard.


Quote:
Originally posted by Deadguy
Huh? Where did anyone say he was the best hitter on the team because he had the most homeruns?

How about OPS? How about Runs Created? Here's some unbiased, objective sources that back up that Frank was the best hitter on the team in 2003:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/alb03.htm
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/c...eqa.html#tmsort
http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winsh...inteam.html#cws

Again, this post was directed at another poster, not you. All it really involved was posting links to sites that are objective and obviously have no bias towards or against Frank, and backed up my statement that he was the best hitter in the team in 2003.




Quote:
Originally posted by Deadguy
Um, yeah. I never thought it was a bad thing when the best hitter on the team returns. If he's such a liability, why didn't anyone on our roster have a higher OPS or have more runs created than Frank?

So why can't you answer this question? That's not "spewing" stats, just stating facts.



Quote:
Originally posted by Deadguy
That has to be one of the dumbest analogies I have ever read. Thomas is guaranteed 17.5 million on the remainder of his contract (the same as GIDPaul, and less than what multiple players like Mo Vaughn make in a single year), while Manny is guaranteed 100 million over the remainder of his contract. Do you not understand the difference between 82.5 million dollars?

I know your job probably doesn't require much in terms of math skills, (probably reading skills, proper hygeine, and mental stability as well), but that is just basic addition and subtraction. Sorry if that's too complicated and doesn't support my claim that the Red Sox have a much greater commitment to Manny in owing him 100+ million over multiple years vs. the Sox only required to pay Thomas 17.5 million over 2 years.

Deadguy
10-31-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Daver
We don't do suspensions here,you work things out between yourselves,this ain't kindergarten.Asking me or Voodoo to step into your battle means you are losing the fight,plain and simple.

Voodoo and I are here to quell pitched battles,not to help you in a personal pissing contest.

Thank you Daver. If I get out of line, just let me know, and I will knock it off.

fquaye149
11-01-2003, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by crector


A few things:

1: As DH, Frank can't engage in "defense."

2: Saying that if you hit .267, you get out 73% and as such you are a detriment to the team is ridiculous. If Frank hit .400 in a season, would you chastise him for getting out 60%?

3: As for walks, in order to score you must first get on base. With each and every walk, you go to 1st base. If a teammate subsequently makes a hit, you have a chance to advance towards home plate and perhaps even score. What would you prefer Frank to do? Swing wildly at every pitch that's out of the strike zone?

4: Please name 1 (ONE!) FA this year who routinely puts up Frank's kind of numbers who would cost the Sox less than $6 Mil. a year. I'm sure that KW would like to find out.

5: Are you sure that you're really a Sox fan?

1. There is a reason why he is a DH....realistically he is one of the worst fielding position players in baseball...2002 cubs/sox series?

2. I could say that...but it would be a 13% improvement!....I could also say he only gets a hit around 25% he's up. No matter how I say it, a .267 batting average is not very good.

3. I understand the concept of the walk. I only dispute the fact that walks are that effective in Frank's case. Certainly they are more effective than a walk. However, as I've mentioned, if we're not playing the home run game, which all signs have pointed to, a runner on first is not that useful. Sure it's a lot more useful than no runners on(although Frank's feet make it a more likely double play than if another runner was on)...but if we're playing small ball advancing Frank to scoring position and scoring him from it is no small task. As was mentioned earlier if Frank comes up with runners on third, first and third, second, or second and third, a walk does not significantly help a small ball team who is not counting on a home run to clear the bases. In fact it just puts a lead-footed runner into a force out position.

4. I can't name many. However, I couldn't name many players on the 2002 or 2003 Minnesota Twins who put up his numbers. I couldn't name many players on the 2003 Marlins who put up his type of number. Nor on the 2002 2003 Oakland Athletics or the 2002 Anaheim Angels. Notice we are allegedly changing the Sox to a small ball team. If we could get Sammy Sosa for 6 million, would you want him? (Although I would take Frank over Sosa in a heartbeat even if he cost 8 times as much as Sosa)

5. I am absolutely positive I am a White Sox fan. I am also a Frank Thomas fan. In fact that's precisely why I would find it tragic to have both the White Sox and Frank suffer the indignity of having a once great player sputter out, and if the last 2 years are an indication Frank is by no stretch of the imagination the player he once was. I hope to God I'm wrong, and that we see the old Frank who hit in the .300's and was a beast, a contributor and wore a hat that said DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE. I have my fingers crossed.

Originally posted by StepsInSC


Jeez. He plays first base, a position notorious for being the home of heavy hitting, weak fielding guys. Its not centerfield we're talking about. The position is perfect for guys like him.

It is, but he can't play it at a level that warrants being placed in the starting lineup at it. That makes him a rather one dimensional player. That was my only point. You're paying decent money for a player who can only fill a lineup spot that is not hard at all to fill

Originally posted by Kilroy


I have never, in all the years of coming to this site, read anything more idiotic that was baseball related.

WALK = BASEHIT.

Would you have made the same dumb-ass statement if each and every one of Thomas' walks was a single instead?

As much as you decry my point as idiotic, there is no sabrmetrician(if that's a word) who would agree with you that walk=base hit. That idea itself is foolish, preposterous, etc. Even the most aloof of baseball fans can plainly see that walks and basehits are not equitable. So to answer your pointed question:

no i would not have made the same "dumb-ass statement" if each and every one of Thomas' walks was(sic) a single instead.


Originally posted by JRIG


Well, when Frank has hitters behind him who actually produce, it's extremely valuable. As I've pointed out previously, Frank has scored over 100 runs NINE times in his career. That's three more times than speedy Kenny Lofton, three more times than speedy Roberto Alomar, three more times than speedy Craig Biggio...basically more than any active player not named Bonds or Henderson.

So exactly how has Frank scored all these runs when he "can't advance on the basepaths well"?


You raise a very good point. However, my point is not that Frank's a bad player, or that OBP is worthless or that we should have gotten rid of Frank a long time ago. My only point is if we hope to attempt to play small ball like KW indicated, perhaps spending six million$ on a low BA, non-bunting slugger is not the perfect answer, especially when money is tight and we could really use some good pitchers( did I hear someone say Scott Schoenweis, your Chicago White Sox number four starter....and how many people dread the day they hear - "now closing for the Sox....Billy "Goat" Koch)...



Now look, I love Frank and I don't even necessarily agree with bc2k's points in this thread (and I am not very familiar with his other threads so please don't take this as an endorsement of them), it's just that being partisanly pro-Frank or anti-Frank tends to obscure the facts. Perhaps it's better to couch your enthusiasm and admit that there are strengths and weaknesses to the situation.


realistically, if we're trying to play small ball you could make a decent case that spending 6 mill on castillo might be just as good for the team as paying frank

MRKARNO
11-01-2003, 01:24 AM
This has to be the worst thread ever.

Frank is here to stay and he can stay up to 3 years (barring the sox buying his contract out in the third year at 3.5 mil, which wont happen) if he so damn well pleases. The White sox have no say in the matter. Frank can't be traded unless he wants to. And Frank has earned all of these rights for playing for the same team for 13 years and putting up some of the slugging numbers of all time.

I don't see what the argument is about. Frank isn't going anywhere soon especially with up to 14 mil guarenteed and an addition 10 almost guarenteed if he wants it.

He's here to stay. This thread is a joke and it should be closed or retired. I would do the thread sucks picture, but it obviously didnt do anything, but this thread REALLY sucks.

fquaye149
11-01-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by 1951Campbell
That sentence actually being typed is further proof we've been spoiled the last 14 years.

I'm just sayin' is all.


very true...although 43 bombs to produce 105 rbis in and of itself tells you frank was none too good at situational hitting...basically it spells a LOT of solo shots

TaylorStSox
11-01-2003, 01:45 AM
105 runs driven in is still 105 runs driven in. I saw an interesting stat recently. Thomas was second in the league (if I remember correctly) in homeruns hit while his team was tied or losing by less than 2 runs. That's timely hitting IMO. At that salary he's by far the best bargain in the league, especially with what he means to this organization.

Let's just all thank god that we didn't sign this guy long term. Worst contract in all of sports? (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5321)


BTW, this is my first post on this board. Welcome me. :D:

baseballboy
11-01-2003, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by Daver
We don't do suspensions here,you work things out between yourselves,this ain't kindergarten.Asking me or Voodoo to step into your battle means you are losing the fight,plain and simple.

Voodoo and I are here to quell pitched battles,not to help you in a personal pissing contest.


I know this is a lie. I know for a fact people have been banned others from this site from personally attacking another person. If you want names I will give them to you as well. This has nothing to do about you stepping in to fight a battle for me. However, I am not here to be berated by another individual. There was no personal pissing contest here. As you told the other individuals that I know you banned, this is not the White Sox Forum. If this is how certain individuals want to act, then they can find a place there. If you want my respect Daver and Voodoo, then I believe you should show the same respect to me. Thank you.

baseballboy
11-01-2003, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Umm, yeah, good luck with that, *snicker*.





Ummm, yeah, those were some complex stats I "spewed"




You were whining about stats that I "spewed" towards you. This post was directed at another poster, mentioning his position on the homerun leaderboard.








So why can't you answer this question? That's not "spewing" stats, just stating facts.





I know your job probably doesn't require much in terms of math skills, (probably reading skills, proper hygeine, and mental stability as well), but that is just basic addition and subtraction. Sorry if that's too complicated and doesn't support my claim that the Red Sox have a much greater commitment to Manny in owing him 100+ million over multiple years vs. the Sox only required to pay Thomas 17.5 million over 2 years.

Please, what the hell are you talking about? I never said I couldnt answer your damn questions. Can you not remember what you said? You are one dumbassmuther****er. You said you were not spewing out stats. I pointed out that you were. You piece of**** redneck. I know there isnt much to do in Peoria on a Friday night but damn. Your****in 23 years old and have nothing else better to do that sit at home and argue with me about****, get a life!!!

RichH55
11-01-2003, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149


realistically, if we're trying to play small ball you could make a decent case that spending 6 mill on castillo might be just as good for the team as paying frank [/B]

Since when is getting on base (say by a walk)...not part and parcel to small ball?


And since we are doing small ball...why don't you check out Castillo's SB to CS

Simply terrible Being Successful at a roughly 50% clip costs you alot, even more some in the AL


I'm always shocked when people (not necessarily this poster, but things I have seen over time) want to build a team based around speed, Left Field and 1B defense, and making things happen

crector
11-01-2003, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
This has to be the worst thread ever.



I don't see what the argument is about.

This thread is a joke and it should be closed or retired. I would do the thread sucks picture, but it obviously didnt do anything, but this thread REALLY sucks.


2 things:

1: Actually, from the standpoint of Unintentional Humor, this thread is in the same league of Plan 9 From Outer Space. Its priceless.

2: The argument is about Cubs fans who hate Frank because he's light years in advance of Strikeout Sammy So-So, pretending to be Sox fans who really care about the best interests of the team. That's where the humorous attempts at logic come from.

TornLabrum
11-01-2003, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
JRIG, voodoo, TornLabrum, why then, the constant comparisons to inferior Konerko?

Because they play the same position on defense?

fquaye149
11-01-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Since when is getting on base (say by a walk)...not part and parcel to small ball?


And since we are doing small ball...why don't you check out Castillo's SB to CS

Simply terrible Being Successful at a roughly 50% clip costs you alot, even more some in the AL


I'm always shocked when people (not necessarily this poster, but things I have seen over time) want to build a team based around speed, Left Field and 1B defense, and making things happen


getting on base (via a walk) is certainly part and parcel to small ball...but so is moving a runner up

i am going to use a situational example, which hurts the validity of my argument but i feel i need to do.


if we are down by 1 run in the bottom of the ninth and Frank gets a leadoff walk what can we do?

if it wasn't frank we might sac bunt(which we could still in theory do) however with frank on first it had better be the best sac bunt the hitter can manage to get frank to second. Once on second, the hit that scores him better be a double. We can't really hit and run or all that.

Now this is stupid anyway since in this situation for frank to single, his walk would be the same anyway but think of

down by 2, runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. frank walks, loading the bases. Walk as good as a hit? What's a small ball team going to do with Frank on 1st and the bases jacked? cross their fingers and hope for a hit is what they're going to do. They can't squeeze or anything execution wise cuz they run the risk of Frank getting doubled up



these are poor examples...i'm just exhibiting why merely getting frank on the bases is not necessarily that helpful to a small ball team....

TornLabrum
11-01-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I had a thread on this about a month ago proving the same point about Frank. I'm glad I'm not the only Sox fan that doesn't have blinders on...

One doesn't need blinders when one is already blind.

TornLabrum
11-01-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Most of those players for the yankees champion teams had a couple of things in common, too. Fundamentals, a strong arm, and good defense. That's the difference between a great player and a great hitter.

As I recall, the Pirantes won a World Championship with Dick "Dr. Strangeglove" Stuart at 1B (.983 FA at 1B) in 1960. You don't need Mark Grace at 1B to win the World Series. Just ask the Cubs.

TornLabrum
11-01-2003, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by Dub25
And the only arguments coming from the pro-Frank camp is all the wonderful things he did in the past. The past.

Yes, and many of those discussed the extreme distant past, as far back as 2003!

TornLabrum
11-01-2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I'm sorry, but I distinctly remember Frank saying something along the lines of that it was his contract year and that it was time for him to quit worry about taking walks and hitting to right field to move runners over and that it was time to "air it out". I know that is pretty much word for word. Believe me, the moment I heard them I commited them to memory because they say everything about Frank that I need to know.

Under the contract that he signed before 2003, every year is his contract year because he and the club both have an option every year.

Realist
11-01-2003, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
getting on base (via a walk) is certainly part and parcel to small ball...but so is moving a runner up

i am going to use a situational example, which hurts the validity of my argument but i feel i need to do.


if we are down by 1 run in the bottom of the ninth and Frank gets a leadoff walk what can we do?

if it wasn't frank we might sac bunt(which we could still in theory do) however with frank on first it had better be the best sac bunt the hitter can manage to get frank to second. Once on second, the hit that scores him better be a double. We can't really hit and run or all that.

Now this is stupid anyway since in this situation for frank to single, his walk would be the same anyway but think of

down by 2, runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. frank walks, loading the bases. Walk as good as a hit? What's a small ball team going to do with Frank on 1st and the bases jacked? cross their fingers and hope for a hit is what they're going to do. They can't squeeze or anything execution wise cuz they run the risk of Frank getting doubled up



these are poor examples...i'm just exhibiting why merely getting frank on the bases is not necessarily that helpful to a small ball team....

Like you, I love Frank too (although some days more than others) and I'm happy he's coming back.

I think this is a great thread because both sides of the issue are actually making very valid points about Frank's impact on the Sox success and failure - both the wonderous contributions and his unfortunate shortcomings. Ahhh... such is the nature of a member of the family.

I've finally decided to embrace Frank Thomas as the family member he's proven himself to be. At times I love him more than air and at other times I wish a safe would fall on him. Now that's family. Ventura and Soderholm will be warmly regarded as White Sox family 25 years from now. Does anybody actually believe that Frank won't be?

What it all boils down to is - as long as his OPS remains very respectable he should be invited to our Labor Day parties and with a little luck, one day he'll end up crashing on our couch all the way through most of October.

Once his OPS tanks, he can play for the Flubs for a year as a novelty, but forever be a White Sox player.

In the mean time I agree with you - please don't bunt if Frank's on first. Let Mags hit into his patented double play. :smile:

TornLabrum
11-01-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
This has to be the worst thread ever.

I don't know about the worst. It is certainly the stupidest.

TornLabrum
11-01-2003, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Please, what the hell are you talking about? I never said I couldnt answer your damn questions. Can you not remember what you said? You are one dumbassmuther****er. You said you were not spewing out stats. I pointed out that you were. You piece of**** redneck. I know there isnt much to do in Peoria on a Friday night but damn. Your****in 23 years old and have nothing else better to do that sit at home and argue with me about****, get a life!!!

Now there's a personal attack!

PaleHoseGeorge
11-01-2003, 07:56 AM
A firstbasemen (or DH) who puts up numbers like Frank Thomas in 2003 (and practically every other year of his career, too) is an absolute steal for the price of $6 million the Sox will pay.

Nobody has to compare him to any of the other firstbasemen in the league unless somebody foolishly disagrees with the statement above. Nobody has to compare him to Paul Konerko unless they are simply trying to point out the utter stupidity of someone disagreeing with the statement above.

The fact he is a 10/5 man and utterly untradeable is irrelevant because of the statement above. The fact he is the best hitter in franchise history is simply a bonus now that he chooses to stay with the team, too.

The Frank haters just can't let the statement above stand uncontested. That's why we're having this debate. That's why they are whining, too. They're getting their heads handed to them because they keep leaning into the punches that anyone who knows what a bargain Frank Thomas truly is would be judicious enough to avoid.

I pity the Frank haters today, because they haven't got a rhetorical leg to stand on now that Frank chose to come back at $6 million.

It's like the lions and the Christians.

:bandance:

gosox41
11-01-2003, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
JRIG, voodoo, TornLabrum, why then, the constant comparisons to inferior Konerko?

Let's see:

1. They're on the same team.
2. They both play the same position.
3. PK is making $8 mill. a year and in hsi best year still can't match Frank's worst.
4. PK had the gall to air out lockerroom issues in 2002 calling Frank out.

I think that's part of it.

Bob

voodoochile
11-01-2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
105 runs driven in is still 105 runs driven in. I saw an interesting stat recently. Thomas was second in the league (if I remember correctly) in homeruns hit while his team was tied or losing by less than 2 runs. That's timely hitting IMO. At that salary he's by far the best bargain in the league, especially with what he means to this organization.

Let's just all thank god that we didn't sign this guy long term. Worst contract in all of sports? (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5321)


BTW, this is my first post on this board. Welcome me. :D:

Okay, Welcome Aboard! :D:

voodoochile
11-01-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
very true...although 43 bombs to produce 105 rbis in and of itself tells you frank was none too good at situational hitting...basically it spells a LOT of solo shots

Now it's Frank's fault that no one is on base when he hits his home runs...

You guys are starting to really reach here...

voodoochile
11-01-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Please, what the hell are you talking about? I never said I couldnt answer your damn questions. Can you not remember what you said? You are one dumbassmuther****er. You said you were not spewing out stats. I pointed out that you were. You piece of**** redneck. I know there isnt much to do in Peoria on a Friday night but damn. Your****in 23 years old and have nothing else better to do that sit at home and argue with me about****, get a life!!!

Okay, that crosses the line. Have a good time at the other boards you mention...

Deadguy
11-01-2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Please, what the hell are you talking about?

I know your comprehension skills are limited, and I do sympathize, but I can't make anything that I've stated any clearer.


I never said I couldnt answer your damn questions.

No, you just proved it with your poorly constructed rhetoric and shoddy attempts to direct the arguments into areas that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, when you knew you couldn't debate anything I wrote.

Can you not remember what you said?

What difference would it make if I could or couldn't? All I have to do is scroll back through the thread, and take a look at accounts of what has been written.

You are one dumbassmuther****er.

Not really. But a response like that indicates that a few jabs by me were enough to knock you straight down to the canvas, and that does provide me with a certain amount of perverse pleasure. :smile:

A small character flaw on my part, but it's good to know that it was that easy to get under your skin.

You piece of**** redneck. I know there isnt much to do in Peoria on a Friday night but damn. Your****in 23 years old and have nothing else better to do that sit at home and argue with me about****, get a life!!! [/B]

Nice job looking at my profile, but the fact that the information in it is a bit outdated, makes you once again, wrong. No big surprise, considering your track record in this thread.

I don't know how much there was to do in Peoria on Friday night, but I don't even live there anymore. I'm a graduate student at ISU, and more importantly, a CPA candidate. With the CPA exam approaching in November, I have to get in as much studying as possible. So as much as I'd like to head out to different parties, and down shots of jaeger with my buddies, while wearing a Ronald Reagan mask, I have to study. I have to worry about my future, since I really don't want to end up 40, and working as an assistant manager at Barnes and Noble, like you.

And sure, I do enjoy taking a few breaks in between studying, to argue about my favorite player, especially when the arguments presented against him are so easy to shoot down. So I do thank you for that.

Not that I really have to justify my presence here, since I could ask you why you chose to sit in front of your computer last night, and take a beating from Frank Thomas supporters, but I'm glad you did. :)

daveeym
11-01-2003, 09:38 AM
I got your back dawg. Frank Thomas is a cancer on this team. Best hitter in sox hitter, sure. Get the sox to a world series, no way. He's a whiny 280 lb selfish self centered spoiled little brat. Oh yeah and one dimensional in his swan song years. the sox have four guys that give the sox what frank gives them. He doesn't bring leadership, he doesn't bring fire, he doesn't lead by example, he doesn't bring squat. For every home run or rbi he gets his shatty attitude and me first mentality takes one away from the struggling rookie the overpaid 3rd string firstbaseman, and the quiet reserved star in right. All the statiticians can gripe all they want but so much more than the best numbers goes into making the best team. There's a reason why statiticians suck - they're no fun at a party and they tell you what you already know from experience and just observing the damn game. Thomas for his career, great hitter, thomas has never sniffed the world series though. And for all our bitching about white flags, strikes, self imposed salary caps etc. if you really think about it from 1990 to the present they're has been an amazing amount of talent to come through the southside with NADA to show for it.

daveeym
11-01-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
105 runs driven in is still 105 runs driven in. I saw an interesting stat recently. Thomas was second in the league (if I remember correctly) in homeruns hit while his team was tied or losing by less than 2 runs. That's timely hitting IMO. At that salary he's by far the best bargain in the league, especially with what he means to this organization.

Let's just all thank god that we didn't sign this guy long term. Worst contract in all of sports? (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5321)


BTW, this is my first post on this board. Welcome me. :D:

not too interesting of a stat in my opinion. 0-0 means tied. For all you statiticians out there here's a project i'd gather if you looked at every thomas at bat 60-80% of his at bats were with the game tied or his team trailing by 2 runs or less. so great 20 homeruns in 300 at bats in this situation. Real timely.

JRIG
11-01-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
very true...although 43 bombs to produce 105 rbis in and of itself tells you frank was none too good at situational hitting...basically it spells a LOT of solo shots

Please see post #122 in this thread.

fquaye149
11-01-2003, 11:46 AM
except that:

didn't carlos have a career year?


didnt' robbie get on base at a better than below average clip?


if i'm mistaken here...let me know


the thing is...i don't remember who said it, but great rbi men find ways to get runs driven in. not to say frank isn't a great rbi man over his career....but come on

how did carlos put up more rbis than frank if the problem is runners in front not getting on base?

RKMeibalane
11-01-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
except that:

didn't carlos have a career year?


didnt' robbie get on base at a better than below average clip?


if i'm mistaken here...let me know


the thing is...i don't remember who said it, but great rbi men find ways to get runs driven in. not to say frank isn't a great rbi man over his career....but come on

how did carlos put up more rbis than frank if the problem is runners in front not getting on base?

Let's not forget that Carlos spent the majority of the first half hitting behind Frank in the order. Frank walked more frequently during the first half, and was on base many times when Carlos came up to bat.

Here are the RBI splits for Lee and Thomas in 2003:

First half:

Lee 54
Thomas 48

Second half:

Lee 59
Thomas 57

As you can see, their RBI numbers are more similar in the second half, when Carlos was hitting in front of Frank, along with Roberto Alomar. During the first half, the Sox offense was a disaster. The lack of scoring opportunities was the one of the main reasons for this.

Also, I cannot help but wonder what Frank's numbers would look like if he had played for manager who had a brain.

:jerry

"I can't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Frank at first base."

PaleHoseGeorge
11-01-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
except that:

didn't carlos have a career year?

didnt' robbie get on base at a better than below average clip?

if i'm mistaken here...let me know

the thing is...i don't remember who said it, but great rbi men find ways to get runs driven in. not to say frank isn't a great rbi man over his career....but come on

how did carlos put up more rbis than frank if the problem is runners in front not getting on base?

This is the best summation I've read yet for why trading Carlos Lee *now* for something of great value ought to be pursued by the Sox. Any person who takes the time to breakdown Lee's numbers knows too well he was a completely different hitter in games he got to hit #2 in front of Frank Thomas. His career year numbers are illusory the same way Mike Caruso's .306 BA was illusory when he got the same spot in the Sox order ahead of Frank in '98.

Lee will never be more valuable than he is right now. If KW can get a good offer in trade, he ought to pull the trigger on the deal.

It's easy to find ballplayers who hit well batting #2 for the Sox. Just ask Mike Caruso.

JRIG
11-01-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
except that:

didn't carlos have a career year?


didnt' robbie get on base at a better than below average clip?


if i'm mistaken here...let me know


the thing is...i don't remember who said it, but great rbi men find ways to get runs driven in. not to say frank isn't a great rbi man over his career....but come on

how did carlos put up more rbis than frank if the problem is runners in front not getting on base?

Carlos did not have a career year in terms of getting on base. In fact, his OBP last year was 3 points below his career average (.331 to .334).

Alomar had his lowest OBP since his rookie season, 1988. At .330, he was even worse at getting on base than D'Angelo Jimenez, aka the worst player to ever wear a Sox uniform . (Note: this comment is not meant to spark another Jimenez debate)

As RK pointed out, Carlos had a lot of RBIs hitting behind Frank in the order early in the season.

I find it hard to believe Frank didn't know how "to find a way to get runs driven in". In every scenario in which runners were on base or in scoring position, Frank hit better than his season stats. I don't know a better way to get runners home than to a) get on base or b) slug the crap out of the ball. Frank did both last year in scoring situations.

RichH55
11-01-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
getting on base (via a walk) is certainly part and parcel to small ball...but so is moving a runner up

i am going to use a situational example, which hurts the validity of my argument but i feel i need to do.


if we are down by 1 run in the bottom of the ninth and Frank gets a leadoff walk what can we do?

if it wasn't frank we might sac bunt(which we could still in theory do) however with frank on first it had better be the best sac bunt the hitter can manage to get frank to second. Once on second, the hit that scores him better be a double. We can't really hit and run or all that.

Now this is stupid anyway since in this situation for frank to single, his walk would be the same anyway but think of

down by 2, runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. frank walks, loading the bases. Walk as good as a hit? What's a small ball team going to do with Frank on 1st and the bases jacked? cross their fingers and hope for a hit is what they're going to do. They can't squeeze or anything execution wise cuz they run the risk of Frank getting doubled up



these are poor examples...i'm just exhibiting why merely getting frank on the bases is not necessarily that helpful to a small ball team....


If its solely small ball then get a pinch runner, whats the issue?

Willie Harris is fast, he can't steal 1B though

You simply can not score a run, small ball-big ball, little league ball if you do not safely get to 1B at some point

Frank Thomas is one of the best at the game at getting to 1B .



As far as other arguments go...I'm not the biggest proponent of small ball anyway....but in the one situation you proposed runners on, down by two....Frank led the team and was a league leader in HR...that would score them:)

I was never the one who said a walk is as good as a hit....but then again...a walk is CERTAINLY better than an out or a GIDP.....thats what OBP will show you...the higher it is, the less outs they make


By the way....How many # 3/4 hitters do you sac bunt or squeeze with? Is it a high number and I'm just defending Frank for no reason or are we missing the big picture here in that Frank helps the ballclub in many many ways(many ways to say it to: numerous, myriad, etc) and hurts us in ways that pale in comparison....and does this at a good price....what's the problem?

soxguy
11-01-2003, 08:11 PM
I like C. Lee much as the next fan, I even see a him getting better but...... If there is any blockbuster from a gm who is set on getting c.lee than so be it TRADE HIM(that also applies to magglio or anyone else. We need to build around our pitching staff. We have an above average nucleus of starters(too bad about colon tho), and descent middle relief. Add another , solid starter and another closer or bullpen arm thats CONSISTENT and we are set. We don't need all of the big bats in our lineup, most times last year it looked as if they were a 16'' softball team, thats not baseball my friends. And as for frank thomas re-signing, its completely obvious that he would NEVER get that kind of cash anywhere else right now. I hope the moving banner on top of this webpage, about frank staying with us ,is tongue in cheek because he should be thanking us(cws fans) for actually giving a crap about him, cause no-one else in MLB does.

StepsInSC
11-01-2003, 09:15 PM
Wow this thread just goes from suck, to suckier, to the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.

I remember at the beginning of the season in the Frank Thomas Fan Club thread everyone was holding hands in fields of amber waves of grain singing hymns of praise and support together for Frank Thomas (okay...maybe not literally), but I miss that.

Everyone is so fast to point out its a TEAM game but its the same way with losing, Thomas was one of the bright spots on a team of individuals.

batmanZoSo
11-01-2003, 09:26 PM
soxguy,

We shouldn't be too picky about what kind of team we want. With all the ? marks, right now I'm just hoping we're good enough to win the division and who cares how far they go. Just get in at least, try to win of course, but build from there.

RKMeibalane
11-01-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Wow this thread just goes from suck, to suckier, to the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.

I remember at the beginning of the season in the Frank Thomas Fan Club thread everyone was holding hands in fields of amber waves of grain singing hymns of praise and support together for Frank Thomas (okay...maybe not literally), but I miss that.

Everyone is so fast to point out its a TEAM game but its the same way with losing, Thomas was one of the bright spots on a team of individuals.

I couldn't agree more. However, the Frank-haters want to have it both ways. When the Sox win, they want to give credit to the entire team. When the Sox lose, they happily dump all of the blame on Frank. It's really annoying.

Furthermore, what I find most amusing about their recent complanits is this: they aren't happy that Frank is staying because they think his salary is drain on the payroll, but I can't help getting the feeling that they would have called Frank a traitor if he had left. The 'haters are unhappy no matter what Thomas does.

As batmanZoSo pointed out, we should not be picky about the team we have. A number of people are upset that Colon is more or less gone, but they don't realize is that things could be worse. As it stands right now, the Sox will have several of their key players back for next season, but there are still several question marks. As fans, we need to count our blessings and be thankful for the fact that Thomas and Loaiza have decided to stick around. Their choice to remain with the Sox deserves our appereciation, not our scorn.

FarWestChicago
11-02-2003, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Wow this thread just goes from suck, to suckier, to the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.Very well said. This may be the worst thread in the history of WSI. :(:


Originally posted by RKMeibalane


I couldn't agree more. However, the Frank-haters want to have it both ways. When the Sox win, they want to give credit to the entire team. When the Sox lose, they happily dump all of the blame on Frank. It's really annoying.It was "almost" amusing when it was just bc2k with his irrational hatred of Frank. The fact there are DOB's (Disciples of bc2k) is truly disturbing. :o:

doublem23
11-02-2003, 03:46 AM
There's no point to arguing with them... The Sox could win the World Series and they'd get on Frank for uncorking the champagne the wrong way...

"See, if he was younger and more productive, he'd have gotten that bottle open in 3.7 seconds with a velocity of 42.826392 MPH, but the old fat ass took a whopping 3.82 seconds and didn't even break 41 and a half! Trade him!"

FarWestChicago
11-02-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
"See, if he was younger and more productive, he'd have gotten that bottle open in 3.7 seconds with a velocity of 42.826392 MPH, but the old fat ass took a whopping 3.82 seconds and didn't even break 41 and a half! Trade him!" Dub, you do a frighteningly good DOB. :cool:

bc2k
11-02-2003, 07:01 PM
I think people have gotten the wrong impression. I only started this thread to play devil's advocate, Frank Thomas is actually one of my favorite players.

StepsInSC
11-02-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I think people have gotten the wrong impression. I only started this thread to play devil's advocate, Frank Thomas is actually one of my favorite players.

:whoflungpoo