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batmanZoSo
10-29-2003, 07:53 PM
I don't pay much attention to off-the-field stuff, especially salaries, arbitration, negotiation, sanitation (okay, I just threw that last one in there). But after weighing the evidence, I would have to say the contract/salary part of this team has been managed quite poorly. It seems like everyone's due for a multi-million dollar raise next year. Actually, it doesn't seem, it is. Our payroll was 56MM(?). Yet in order to return the same squad (which has many holes and didn't win sh##), we'd have to jump the payroll to over 80 million dollars. To really compete and go for something, it would have to be closer to 90.

I understand CE and RA weren't really on our 2003 payroll and naturally, retaining them would automatically add a good 11 million, but still. We never trade for a player that's locked up for more than a year and we lose him the following year. Well, except Koch--the one time where we desperately wish a guy we traded for WASN'T locked up. I say we trade him for a carton of Kools and sign Foulkie again. We still have Cotts, so that trade could still sway heavily to our side in the long haul.

Konerko was given a fat contract, guaranteeing him 8 million dollars a year two years from that point. Here you go, we think you'll improve that much in a few years, take it. Well, he didn't. He got much, much worse. Personally, I never foresaw him being a player WORTH 8 million ever. And now we're stuck with him. They think those contracts give them some flexibility, but for one, they've overpaid in the first place, but also, they didn't account for this pickle we're in now with so many players due for raises, along with the fact the player with the big escalating salary might stink and thus be untradeable, leaving you to pick up the tab with little or no return.

This team hasn't been managed well financially (or in many other ways which we won't get into) at all. They tried to piiiiinch every penny the last two years, knowing that the contracts would rise significantly forcing us to cut payroll. If you just spend a tad more each year, you won't be stuck with 15 million dollar men like Maggs who's great, but simply not worth that much...and guys like Konerko who statistically are worth under a million, yet you pay them 8.

From now on, if you give a player 30 million dollars, just divide that by the number of years given.

I don't know...::sigh::

Daver
10-29-2003, 08:09 PM
The answer is non-guaranteed contracts,similar to what the NFL has.Try getting that past the MLBPA.

Baseball contracts are always a crapshoot,it's a gamble that you are spending on the right guy,it is this way for every team.Do you really think the Yankees are happy with the investment of millions in J.D. Drew,compared to his production so far?

No GM is perfect,none.Billy Beane gambled and lost when he traded for Keith Foulke,sure Foulke produced for him,but he has nothing left in his system to show for that trade,Mark Johnson was released,and Valantine got traded,and will be a minor league FA this year,and Keith Foulke filed for FA.

Baseball business is a game with strange rules,and even stranger consequences.


But then again what the hell do I know? ©

batmanZoSo
10-29-2003, 08:25 PM
We still shouldn't be in this mess.

And you mean Drew Henson. Or you might mean J.D. Drew and meant to write Cardinals. At any rate, both are applicable and acceptable.

I understand all what you said, but this team is always allocating money--big money--in the wrong places. Why are we paying for a 7 million dollar left fielder who hits right handed when those guys are a dime a dozen and we have plenty of right handed power? Why do we have a crippled, eight million dollar first baseman who was never going to put up eight million dollar numbers in the first place? I never got the move of locking him up. You lock up your Buehrle's and Ordonezezezs. Every team has problems like this, but we seem to have a lot more than most. I hope to god the "fans" respond to this upper deck thing.

Daver
10-29-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
We still shouldn't be in this mess.

And you mean Drew Henson. Or you might mean J.D. Drew and meant to write Cardinals. At any rate, both are applicable and acceptable.

I understand all what you said, but this team is always allocating money--big money--in the wrong places. Why are we paying for a 7 million dollar left fielder who hits right handed when those guys are a dime a dozen and we have plenty of right handed power? Why do we have a crippled, eight million dollar first baseman who was never going to put up eight million dollar numbers in the first place? I never got the move of locking him up. You lock up your Buehrle's and Ordonezezezs. Every team has problems like this, but we seem to have a lot more than most. I hope to god the "fans" respond to this upper deck thing.

Yes it was Henson,I'm having a bad day.

Why are the Yankees paying Jeff Weaver millions to sit in the bullpen for a month at a time to appear for one inning?

Why did the Orioles pay Albert Belle millions for two years after he retired from the game?

Why did Tom Hicks get in a bidding war with himself to make Alex Rodriguez the poster boy for payroll restraint?

Why did the Phillies pay Jim Thome 14 mil to come close to leading the league in K's?

Why did the Red Sox give Manny Ramirez a multi year deal only to have him play when he wants to play,and pay him 15 mil to do so?

This is not limited to the Sox,every team makes gambles that don't pay off.

LauraJ14
10-29-2003, 09:44 PM
You forget that Konerko would have been eligible for arbitration after 2002. Maybe the Sox thought that he would get more money based on his 2002 numbers and so tried to anticipate and sign him to a contract that they thought was more favorable.
Thats why Buehrle didn't sign his contract offer because he was gambling that arbitration would get him more money.

JoseCanseco6969
10-29-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The answer is non-guaranteed contracts,similar to what the NFL has.Try getting that past the MLBPA.

Baseball contracts are always a crapshoot,it's a gamble that you are spending on the right guy,it is this way for every team.Do you really think the Yankees are happy with the investment of millions in J.D. Drew,compared to his production so far?

No GM is perfect,none.Billy Beane gambled and lost when he traded for Keith Foulke,sure Foulke produced for him,but he has nothing left in his system to show for that trade,Mark Johnson was released,and Valantine got traded,and will be a minor league FA this year,and Keith Foulke filed for FA.

Baseball business is a game with strange rules,and even stranger consequences.


But then again what the hell do I know? ©


Well i dont know about you but I'd rather nothing now like the A's instead of Koch and his huge salary. I dont think Beane lost in that trade, he had a huge year out of foulke and now has extra money to spend on another reliever/closer. We lost in that deal by far. MJ and valantine arent a huge loss.

duke of dorwood
10-29-2003, 09:53 PM
The players are paid well, too well. The examples from a prior post would make me , if I were an owner, pay market value to players I already have, as opposed to the unknown. Thats how Konerko cashed in. With most players and agents , the grass i$ alway$ greener, for sometimes just a few bucks more they pay in taxes anyway.

voodoochile
10-29-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by JoseCanseco6969
Well i dont know about you but I'd rather nothing now like the A's instead of Koch and his huge salary. I dont think Beane lost in that trade, he had a huge year out of foulke and now has extra money to spend on another reliever/closer. We lost in that deal by far. MJ and valantine arent a huge loss.

The trade didn't bring Koch's salary, the Sox gave that to him. That was a seperate issue.

The Sox gave up Folke, Johnson and Valentine for Cotts and Koch. The Sox have two players to show for it (though one of them is overpaid) and the A's have a draft pick if they offer Foulke arbitration.

Brian26
10-29-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I don't pay much attention to off-the-field stuff, especially salaries, arbitration, negotiation, sanitation (okay, I just threw that last one in there). But after weighing the evidence, I would have to say the contract/salary part of this team has been managed quite poorly. It seems like everyone's due for a multi-million dollar raise next year. Actually, it doesn't seem, it is. Our payroll was 56MM(?). Yet in order to return the same squad (which has many holes and didn't win sh##), we'd have to jump the payroll to over 80 million dollars. To really compete and go for something, it would have to be closer to 90.

I understand CE and RA weren't really on our 2003 payroll and naturally, retaining them would automatically add a good 11 million, but still. We never trade for a player that's locked up for more than a year and we lose him the following year. Well, except Koch--the one time where we desperately wish a guy we traded for WASN'T locked up. I say we trade him for a carton of Kools and sign Foulkie again. We still have Cotts, so that trade could still sway heavily to our side in the long haul.

Konerko was given a fat contract, guaranteeing him 8 million dollars a year two years from that point. Here you go, we think you'll improve that much in a few years, take it. Well, he didn't. He got much, much worse. Personally, I never foresaw him being a player WORTH 8 million ever. And now we're stuck with him. They think those contracts give them some flexibility, but for one, they've overpaid in the first place, but also, they didn't account for this pickle we're in now with so many players due for raises, along with the fact the player with the big escalating salary might stink and thus be untradeable, leaving you to pick up the tab with little or no return.

This team hasn't been managed well financially (or in many other ways which we won't get into) at all. They tried to piiiiinch every penny the last two years, knowing that the contracts would rise significantly forcing us to cut payroll. If you just spend a tad more each year, you won't be stuck with 15 million dollar men like Maggs who's great, but simply not worth that much...and guys like Konerko who statistically are worth under a million, yet you pay them 8.

From now on, if you give a player 30 million dollars, just divide that by the number of years given.

I don't know...::sigh::

Ugh.

Dude, no offense, but you're annoying this **** out of me.

This post was such a prototypical Score caller's rant.

For as much great discussion that happens on this message board, posts like this really bring the intelligence level down. I enjoy thinking about Kenny coming to this board and checking out our posts sometimes as a lurker. But when I see a ridiculous post like yours, I just cringe and hope KW never sees it...because if he does, he's going to roll his eyes and probably never come back and visit this place.

Think before you post. Rick Hahn and KW stay up until the wee hours of the morning working on this contract situation. Nothing was mishandled, and don't post a thesis on topics you don't fully understand yourself. As Daver so elloquently mentioned, these problems are paramount to baseball and to no particular team. The Yankees and Marlins have the same problems the Sox do this offseason. Let Hahn and KW worry about that stuff...they'll get it done.

MisterB
10-30-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Why did the Phillies pay Jim Thome 14 mil to come close to leading the league in K's?

Wait...that's a bad thing? Hmmm.....

Originally posted by Daver (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16277)
Striking out a lot hasn't hurt Jim Thome,every team in the AL Central is happy as hell he went to the Phillies. :redneck

So the tiger can change it's stripes. :D:

soxtalker
10-30-2003, 06:47 AM
Aren't the overall economics in the game changing? And these were probably strongly impacted by changes in the overall economy. Many teams are finding their salary structures capped out -- not through a rule set in place by MLB and the players' union, but through normal economics. They are at or have exceeded the limits they see as prudent. Now Fox says it won't bid anything close to the same dollar amount for the next broadcast contract.

gosox41
10-30-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The trade didn't bring Koch's salary, the Sox gave that to him. That was a seperate issue.

The Sox gave up Folke, Johnson and Valentine for Cotts and Koch. The Sox have two players to show for it (though one of them is overpaid) and the A's have a draft pick if they offer Foulke arbitration.

And a playoff appearnce. Though it is likely the A's would have made the playoffs anyway in 2003, how effective do you think they would have been if they had committed all that money to Koch to see him pitch 37 innings instead of the 80 Foulke pitched. The fact taht those 37 innings itself cost the Sox some games and the fact that Koch's being hurt meant more innings had to be eaten by other releivers leads to more then a few losses.

Bob

hold2dibber
10-30-2003, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
Ugh.

Dude, no offense, but you're annoying this **** out of me.

This post was such a prototypical Score caller's rant.

For as much great discussion that happens on this message board, posts like this really bring the intelligence level down. I enjoy thinking about Kenny coming to this board and checking out our posts sometimes as a lurker. But when I see a ridiculous post like yours, I just cringe and hope KW never sees it...because if he does, he's going to roll his eyes and probably never come back and visit this place.

Think before you post. Rick Hahn and KW stay up until the wee hours of the morning working on this contract situation. Nothing was mishandled, and don't post a thesis on topics you don't fully understand yourself. As Daver so elloquently mentioned, these problems are paramount to baseball and to no particular team. The Yankees and Marlins have the same problems the Sox do this offseason. Let Hahn and KW worry about that stuff...they'll get it done.

Don't you think you're being a little hard on the Beaver, Ward?

Seriously - I understand what you're getting at, but the fact remains that managing payroll is a big part of the GM's job. While it is true that no GM gets it right every time, the fact remains that there is reason to be critical of KW's handling of the payroll.

Brian26
10-30-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Don't you think you're being a little hard on the Beaver, Ward?

Seriously - I understand what you're getting at, but the fact remains that managing payroll is a big part of the GM's job. While it is true that no GM gets it right every time, the fact remains that there is reason to be critical of KW's handling of the payroll.

KW is doing a fine job. IF KW DOESN'T sign anybody, Lip is all over this board talking about how the chairman doesn't want to spend money. If KW DOES sign guys to big money contracts, people are bitching that we can't afford them (whether it be Magglio's huge impending raise, Konerko's fat contract, Koch's, Colon not being worth over $12 mil/yr). What I'm saying is: KW can't win when dealing with the "typical Score caller" who thinks he knows sports economics better than the guys in charge. Rick Hahn and KW are doing their best. Sometimes the roll of the dice doesn't work (Koch), other times it does. We offered Buehrle a contract, which everyone wanted him take. He declined, and he had a up-and-down year. Does KW look better or worse now? It's not an easy question, but none of us are in any position to try to tear KW down on this particular topic...no way. The first post by Batman just blew me away. I could just hear him talking to JHood on the Score rambling about how misguided KW has been and how he doesn't know how to handle contract negotiations, etc. Blah. He's doing just as good as anyone else in this crazy sports-economics climate.

Iwritecode
10-30-2003, 09:39 AM
It's true that KW is doing the best that he can and that every GM has to gamble sometimes but I think the real problem is the fact that when KW gambles and loses, it is much more magnified that when someone like Cashman does the same thing.

I gurantee that Maggs and Konerko are taking up a much larger percentage of the total Sox payroll than Weaver and Henson are from the Yankees total payroll...

voodoochile
10-30-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
It's true that KW is doing the best that he can and that every GM has to gamble sometimes but I think the real problem is the fact that when KW gambles and loses, it is much more magnified that when someone like Cashman does the same thing.

I gurantee that Maggs and Konerko are taking up a much larger percentage of the total Sox payroll than Weaver and Henson are from the Yankees total payroll...

That is a huge factor. The Sox have no room for error, or less room anyway because of their self imposed salary restraints.

Also, until KW pulls off a trade for a big name player who BOTH succeeds AND sticks around, there are going to be naysayers.