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Wanne
10-29-2003, 10:13 AM
I know that Williams traded away some of the young arms...but why haven't we seen anybody come up and contribute the past few years. Where's Rauch...where's Malone? If you're gonna let Colon walk...you better be prepared to replace him. I know his record wasn't stellar....but if Laoiza ends up a one-year wonder....Buerhle bolts to the Cards....where does that leave this staff in a few years?

voodoochile
10-29-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Wanne
I know that Williams traded away some of the young arms...but why haven't we seen anybody come up and contribute the past few years. Where's Rauch...where's Malone? If you're gonna let Colon walk...you better be prepared to replace him. I know his record wasn't stellar....but if Laoiza ends up a one-year wonder....Buerhle bolts to the Cards....where does that leave this staff in a few years?

Well, Buehrle can't leave until 3 more years have passed, which will give them plenty of time to develop and find other pitchers via FA/trading.

The more exciting pitching names seem to be in the low to middle minors, so hopefully they will be ready then, but who knows. Prior, Wood and Buehrle all blew threw the minors to reach the majors, and have been effective, so no reason to think that cannot happen again...

GoSox2K3
10-29-2003, 10:37 AM
That's a good question. A few years ago, I kept hearing that the Sox were really stockpilling good arms in their farm system, they were loaded w/ pitching talent, they had the best farm system in baseball, blah,blah,blah.

What happened? Were our prospects overrated or does the Sox minor league system mismanage the talent? I'd like to hear what people think about this.

Hangar18
10-29-2003, 10:49 AM
What happened to our Vaunted minor league system ??
Same thing that happened to the Cubs hehheh. (for goodness sakes, The Messiah Prior DOESNT count as a cubbie minor leaguer. He was a Twins player/draft pick that was thrown away, and the Cubs happened to be in the Alley sifting thru the dumpster) the Cubs SHOULD NOT get credit for "drafting" him
anymore than the Garbageman shouldnt get "Credit" for Finding
a Briefcase with $100,000 in it

Things just didnt work out with the UpperClassmen in our minors.
There is another "wave" of underclassmen that have very bright
Futures ahead of them, Kris Honel being one of them. Weve seen Jeremy Reed Bust on the scene out of nowhere and hes in this group also. We'll just have to hope eventually, some
of these guys are gonna Pan out.

Huisj
10-29-2003, 11:08 AM
for starters, one pitcher who was supposed to be the future ace posted a 3.28 ERA and a .233 opponents batting average this year. not for the sox though.

:kipper
"I've been potty trained finally. No more poop in the pants for me"

Hangar18
10-29-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Huisj
for starters, one pitcher who was supposed to be the future ace posted a 3.28 ERA and a .233 opponents batting average this year. not for the sox though.

:kipper
"I've been potty trained finally. No more poop in the pants for me"

Yeah, but everyone Forgets we Ripped the Pirates off and
got Todd Ritchie away from them for.....wait a second. That
wasnt a good trade after all was it?

Irishlawyer
10-29-2003, 11:19 AM
I keep hearing that Shoenweiss is IN the rotation for next year. Ugggh...

As for the kids, I think back to Schuler's admonition that "we are ahead of schedule" in the "kids can play" year as to the reason he didn't want to make a trade to bring in veteran arms and why he would never deal away our young arms.

The new batch of underclassmen are "ahead of schedule" too. At a certain point, you have to start believing that our minor league system is alot like the Dodger system of the late 80s early 90s where it was filled with "the next big thing" and produced nothing much more than HYPE.

chosk8
10-29-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Wanne
I know that Williams traded away some of the young arms...but why haven't we seen anybody come up and contribute the past few years. Where's Rauch...where's Malone? If you're gonna let Colon walk...you better be prepared to replace him. I know his record wasn't stellar....but if Laoiza ends up a one-year wonder....Buerhle bolts to the Cards....where does that leave this staff in a few years?

Actually, I used to ask myself that same question. That 2000-2001 crop of pitchers did actually produce a number of major league pitchers. The problem is that some of them are no longer here. Rocky Biddle, Kip Wells, Josh Fogg are the 3 most notables. Granted, these three aren't exactly Mulder Hudson and Zito, but they are contributing on major league staffs. Add those to Buehrle, Garland, Wright and even Ginter, and there's another four who have contributed at the major league level. Buehrle is the only one of those that emerged as a legitamite 1 or 2, so I think the problem was not so much why didn't they pan out, as opposed to the way they were hyped. I bought into all the hype myself. When publications like Baseball America are touting your teams minor league system as among the best in baseball for several years, it's hard to overlook it. Seven pitchers who are contributing in the majors and several others that are coming down the pike such as Rauch, Malone and Stewart is nothing to sneeze at from the 2000-01 crop. We'll see what happens with these guys like Rauch and Malone who are coming off injuries. Aaron Myette, who was traded away in the Royce Clayton deal and Matt Guerrier, who was traded for Damaso Marte haven't done much. The second 'wave' of pitchers includes Honel, Stumm, and Munoz along with Pacheco, Diaz and Cotts, who we acquired from other teams via trades. Brian West, another highly touted pitcher, left the team this past summer after an elbow injury and faced Tommy John surgery and 2 years of rehab, to become a linebacker at Louisiana State. The way these guys were touted, I think people expected a few Prior's, Beckett's and Zito's, but instead we came away with several back-of-the-rotation guys.

Sorry for the length.

washington
10-29-2003, 11:53 AM
The Sox really overhyped their minor league pitching; so far only Buehrle and Kip Wells have come through, and Buehrle was kind of a surprise. Many hyped pitching prospects haven't panned out yet: Myette, Malone, Rausch, Ginter, Ulacia, Stumm, West, Barcelo...

Lip Man 1
10-29-2003, 12:00 PM
Don't blame me...I never said the Sox minor league pitching prospects were great. I was in favor of trading all of them for guys who proved themselves as major league pitchers regardless of whether they won two games or fifteen games in a season.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Lip

GoSox2K3
10-29-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
for starters, one pitcher who was supposed to be the future ace posted a 3.28 ERA and a .233 opponents batting average this year. not for the sox though.

:kipper
"I've been potty trained finally. No more poop in the pants for me"

Hmmm, let's see.... we give away good players to the Pirates and the Pirates give away good players to the Cubs. What's wrong with this picture?

Actually, the whole Kip Wells situation seems to indicate to me that the Sox mishandled him. The fact that he finally got his crap together as soon as he left the Sox makes me think our coaching staff is to blame for our lack of pitching talent.

It makes me wonder if Garland would suddenly "click" as a major league starter and live up to his potential if he were on another team.

soxtalker
10-29-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
[

Actually, the whole Kip Wells situation seems to indicate to me that the Sox mishandled him. The fact that he finally got his (VC edit: Crap works just as well without the language filter problems) together as soon as he left the Sox makes me think our coaching staff is to blame for our lack of pitching talent.

It makes me wonder if Garland would suddenly "click" as a major league starter and live up to his potential if he were on another team.

Reminds me of the discussion of Chad Bradford in Moneyball. Yes, we did get a deperately-needed catcher for him, and the book is, of course, written in a manner that makes Billy Beane look good. However, the point is still valid that the Sox had a very good pitcher in their system, and they completely mismanaged him.

Huisj
10-29-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
Hmmm, let's see.... we give away good players to the Pirates and the Pirates give away good players to the Cubs. What's wrong with this picture?

Actually, the whole Kip Wells situation seems to indicate to me that the Sox mishandled him. The fact that he finally got his (VC edit: Crap works just as well without the language filter problems) together as soon as he left the Sox makes me think our coaching staff is to blame for our lack of pitching talent.

It makes me wonder if Garland would suddenly "click" as a major league starter and live up to his potential if he were on another team.

I've thought the same thing about Kip. When you watch the way he's pitched since he went to the Pirates, he looks totally different from when he was in Chicago. He rears back and fires the ball pretty hard and actually throws hard fastballs for strikes and inside. In Chicago, he always looked like he was trying to aim the ball instead of just throwing it. He had been hyped as a hard thrower (low-mid 90s) with a great curve, but when he was with the sox it never seemed like he was much over 90 at all, and it also didn't look like he was even trying to throw harder than 90. He looked stiff out there. Now he looks real loose, and he can bring some good heat consistently. His fastball looks like it has life on it that I never saw on it much except for maybe in those first two or three starts he made at the end of '99 and maybe a few starts in june in '01 when he was locked in right around the all star break.

Come to think of it, Garland and Wright often look the same way. They look stiff and unnatural out there like they're afraid to just let it go and throw the ball.

anewman35
10-29-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Don't blame me...I never said the Sox minor league pitching prospects were great. I was in favor of trading all of them for guys who proved themselves as major league pitchers regardless of whether they won two games or fifteen games in a season.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Lip

What was your opinion of the Ritchie trade, then? Were you in favor of it?

doublem23
10-29-2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Don't blame me...I never said the Sox minor league pitching prospects were great. I was in favor of trading all of them for guys who proved themselves as major league pitchers regardless of whether they won two games or fifteen games in a season.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Lip

Good thing you patted yourself on the back for that, man... I know no one else was giving you the props.

washington
10-29-2003, 03:22 PM
I can't think of any minor league pitchers who developed well under Manuel. Buehrle came in as a good pitcher, fortunately the Manuel brain trust didn't ruin him. Manuel took credit for making Foulke into a good pitcher, which is a joke. Foulke was good from the time he got here under Bevington

Lip Man 1
10-29-2003, 10:13 PM
As a matter of fact I was in favor of the Richie deal.

It didn't work out. Tough. Trade a few more minor league maybe's for someone else who's succeeded in the bigs and try again and if that doesn't work trade a few more kids from the next draft class.

Baseball America had a story that said only one out of every ten minor league players ever spend one day in the pro's. What's the gamble?

and folks let's get real here. Some of you talk like Wells and Fogg are the reincarnation of Schilling and Johnson (both of whom Arizona acquired by the way... either in trade of FA). The reality is they are both mediocre at best, they'll never win twenty games, never make the All Star Team...they are another set like Garland, Wright.

Enough talent to make you think maybe, but never any real results.

Lip

Huisj
10-29-2003, 10:22 PM
Ok, I never said anything about Fogg being superman. I never even mentioned him. I agree, he's not that good, his ERA was well over 5 this year and his K's were way down.

But wells just had back to back years with ERAs well under 3. He's got great stuff, he's obviously doing something right. He's a dang good pitcher. He's a pitcher who could not to difficultly turn into a 20 game winner (although that may be hard with pittsburg sucking the way they do).

RichH55
10-29-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As a matter of fact I was in favor of the Richie deal.

It didn't work out. Tough. Trade a few more minor league maybe's for someone else who's succeeded in the bigs and try again and if that doesn't work trade a few more kids from the next draft class.

Baseball America had a story that said only one out of every ten minor league players ever spend one day in the pro's. What's the gamble?

and folks let's get real here. Some of you talk like Wells and Fogg are the reincarnation of Schilling and Johnson (both of whom Arizona acquired by the way... either in trade of FA). The reality is they are both mediocre at best, they'll never win twenty games, never make the All Star Team...they are another set like Garland, Wright.

Enough talent to make you think maybe, but never any real results.

Lip

Fogg isnt any great shakes....But Wells is pretty good...I would not be surprised to see him make the All-Star team next year


And I'm still waiting for C.Lee for Rick Helling to go through

JRIG
10-29-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Fogg isnt any great shakes....But Wells is pretty good...I would not be surprised to see him make the All-Star team next year


And I'm still waiting for C.Lee for Rick Helling to go through

I saw Rick Helling warm up in some game for the Marlins in the World Series. I had no idea he was even on their roster.

minastirith67
10-30-2003, 12:33 AM
Whatever happened to Kris Honel, the young fella from the latest draft? How well did he do in the minors this year? Isn't he a knuckleballer?

soxtalker
10-30-2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
...
Baseball America had a story that said only one out of every ten minor league players ever spend one day in the pro's. What's the gamble?

and folks let's get real here. Some of you talk like Wells and Fogg are the reincarnation of Schilling and Johnson (both of whom Arizona acquired by the way... either in trade of FA). The reality is they are both mediocre at best, they'll never win twenty games, never make the All Star Team...they are another set like Garland, Wright.
...
Lip

You have quoted this BA statistic a few times. This is not a terribly good argument. The point on that statistic is that it applies across the board to minor league prospects. I'm going to guess that you have a normal distribution (bell-shaped curve) of pitchers in the minors. Of course only the top 10% make it; that's governed just as much by the number of available spaces in the majors compared to the number of slots in the minors. If you look at your top minor league prospects, the percentage should be much higher. If you've drafted well and have a system that develops talent well -- both of which I question for the Sox -- you should do even better.

While Wells and Fogg may not have been Schilling and Johnson, they were two of the better prospects in our system. And they haven't done badly for their new employer.

gosox41
10-30-2003, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As a matter of fact I was in favor of the Richie deal.

It didn't work out. Tough. Trade a few more minor league maybe's for someone else who's succeeded in the bigs and try again and if that doesn't work trade a few more kids from the next draft class.

Baseball America had a story that said only one out of every ten minor league players ever spend one day in the pro's. What's the gamble?

and folks let's get real here. Some of you talk like Wells and Fogg are the reincarnation of Schilling and Johnson (both of whom Arizona acquired by the way... either in trade of FA). The reality is they are both mediocre at best, they'll never win twenty games, never make the All Star Team...they are another set like Garland, Wright.

Enough talent to make you think maybe, but never any real results.

Lip

Wells, Fogg, and Garland are much better SP's then Wright is right now. Having Fogg as the Sox 5th starter last season would not have been a bad thing. All season long you were complaining about how many wins our #5 guys had. Didn't both Wells and Fogg have more? Didn't they both have less run support to? And sticking the other one (probably Fogg) in the bullpen last season would have made the bp that much stronger.

They're not stars, but they are valuable role players who are cheap and don't eat a lot of salary.

Don't get me started on why the Ritchie trade was such a bad trade to begin with.

Bob

GoSox2K3
10-30-2003, 08:48 AM
The Sox finished only 4 games out of 1st this year. I would have loved to still have even one of those "mediocre" pitchers we gave away to Pittsburgh. They may have been enough to put us over the top.

Regarding the fact that 1 in 10 minor leaguers make to the big leagues - that stat is sort of misleading for the issue here. The problem is that the Sox seem to be getting close to that level of success from their top prospects - not from their general pool of minor leaguers.

Hangar18
10-30-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
The Sox finished only 4 games out of 1st this year. I would have loved to still have even one of those "mediocre" pitchers we gave away to Pittsburgh. They may have been enough to put us over the top.


That is the FACT that I always forget, and Hurts to this day, we were THISCLOSE. I can count 4 games easily we shouldve won, and didnt. If we made the Playoffs, We easily couldve gone very very far. :angry:

dooda
10-30-2003, 10:20 AM
I think one overriding cause for the lack of development of pitchers in every ML team's farm system is the lack of time to develop pitchers. I'm a lot older than most of you all are, and I can remember Gary Peters being 26,27 years old when he got his chance. He had spent 6 or 7 years in the minors honing his craft. When he came up he was ready to win. With the free agency rules today, teams don't have the luxury of allowing these kids the time to develop. That is why it makes good sense to "buy" established pitchers. The downside is the cost. You either give up young unproven arms or tons of cash to a free agent.

I also think White Sox talent managers/evaluators could do better. Why did Neal Cotts, who is wilder than a marsh hare, get a start in a pivotal series when his track record shows he's going to walk a ton of guys. If we had to start an untested farm hand why not one who's K:BB ratio is a positive number.

Why is Dan Wright continuing to get innings at the ML level when he can't throw strikes? Pitchers with good stuff who can't throw strikes are a dime a dozen and they are less than .500 pitchers.

While I'm on this rant, I hope the Sox will shore up the defense up the middle. Defense can improve pitching immensely. Resigning Roberto Alomar is a good investment just for his defense. We need a center fielder who can run and has at least an average arm. SS is another position that we would do well to upgrade from a defensive stand point.

MarkEdward
10-30-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by minastirith67
Whatever happened to Kris Honel, the young fella from the latest draft? How well did he do in the minors this year? Isn't he a knuckleballer?

Here's Honel's stat line for 2003:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/cgi-bin/statsfindplayer.pl?player=Honel%2C+Kris

Although Cotts got a lot of press this year, I'd still say Honel's our best pitching prospect.

He's not a knuckleballer, but he does throw a knuckle curve.

Twin Killing
10-30-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As a matter of fact I was in favor of the Richie deal.

It didn't work out. Tough. Trade a few more minor league maybe's for someone else who's succeeded in the bigs and try again and if that doesn't work trade a few more kids from the next draft class.
......

and folks let's get real here. Some of you talk like Wells and Fogg are the reincarnation of Schilling and Johnson (both of whom Arizona acquired by the way... either in trade of FA). The reality is they are both mediocre at best, they'll never win twenty games, never make the All Star Team...they are another set like Garland, Wright.

Enough talent to make you think maybe, but never any real results.

Lip

Since when did Richie "succeed" in the majors. Ok, he had 15 wins in '99 with a 3.49. Big deal. You're saying Wells/Fogg don't have the potential to do that? Translate his ERA numbers in Pittsburgh to the AL and you've got garbage. Also, while it is possible that neither will ever win 20 or make the All Star team, you can't say that will NEVER happen. These guys are young. Richie was your typical "tough luck - has good stuff needs a change of venue" pitcher. You don't give up much for those types or you ask for trouble.

In addition, with the additional depth at pitching if the trade was not made, who knows what other deals could have been made with the combo of Wells/Fogg/Garland/Wright, etc that could have actually helped the team.

I'm all for moving prospects for proven major leaguers, but continuing to do deals like this and if they don't work just move on to the next is a recipe for disaster.

Dadawg_77
10-30-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by dooda
I think one overriding cause for the lack of development of pitchers in every ML team's farm system is the lack of time to develop pitchers. I'm a lot older than most of you all are, and I can remember Gary Peters being 26,27 years old when he got his chance. He had spent 6 or 7 years in the minors honing his craft. When he came up he was ready to win. With the free agency rules today, teams don't have the luxury of allowing these kids the time to develop. That is why it makes good sense to "buy" established pitchers. The downside is the cost. You either give up young unproven arms or tons of cash to a free agent.

I also think White Sox talent managers/evaluators could do better. Why did Neal Cotts, who is wilder than a marsh hare, get a start in a pivotal series when his track record shows he's going to walk a ton of guys. If we had to start an untested farm hand why not one who's K:BB ratio is a positive number.

Why is Dan Wright continuing to get innings at the ML level when he can't throw strikes? Pitchers with good stuff who can't throw strikes are a dime a dozen and they are less than .500 pitchers.



Actually I think you are wrong on what is causing younger and younger pitchers to have a major league roster spot. A player can be kept in the minors for 6(maybe 5) years before they become a minor league FA. After three years(not sure on this) you need to have the player on your 40 man or they will be subject to a rule five draft.

What is causing young pitchers to fill out pitching staffs, is they usually have a higher potential and are cheaper then major league retreads. If you have a budget of 60 million, then paying 10 player under 500,000 helps your team keep under budget.

jeremyb1
10-30-2003, 01:08 PM
Everyone else has laid it out pretty well. We traded Myette, Ring, Wells, Guerrier, Biddle, and Fogg. Malone, Rauch, West, and Stumm have had injuries. Ginter, Ulacia, and Wright haven't quite lived up to expectations yet. Buehrle is one of the better young starters in baseball, Garland is an above average major league starter at just 23, and guys like Rauch and Honel and relievers like Munoz, Ginter, Sanders, and Majewski still have a chance to make solid contributions at the major league level.