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THE_HOOTER
10-28-2003, 08:51 PM
On the way home from work, Bruce Levine said the Sox will be picking up his 5 million dollar option for next year.

If we are trying to come up with money for colon, or another possible front-line starter, why in the hell do we give a bad fielding, home run swinging shortstop 5 million?

The only reason I can think of is we are signing Colon no matter what.

I think Williams is going to go for it this year, and bring everyone back except Everitt.

Otherwise, why sign Valentin?

OEO Magglio
10-28-2003, 08:53 PM
O boy I don't like the sound of that, this is throwing 5 mill down the tubes, hopefully this isn't true, or this is a terrible terrible move.

JRIG
10-28-2003, 08:55 PM
I can't come up with any reason why Valentin would be worth $5 million next season, and I'm a Jose Vaentin fan.

gosox41
10-28-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
O boy I don't like the sound of that, this is throwing 5 mill down the tubes, hopefully this isn't true, or this is a terrible terrible move.

Could this be KW's big stupid move of the winter? He's getting it done early this year.

Bob

cornball
10-28-2003, 09:06 PM
For that type of money (probably a little more) I would rather have Kaz. All other Japanese players that have come to the majors have had an impact and he was touted higher than his names sake on the Yankees.

5MM when your watching every penny......stupid!!!! It can't be true.

Daver
10-28-2003, 09:13 PM
I'll beleive when I see it in a press release from the Sox,Bruce Levine has been known to only know half the story.

batmanZoSo
10-28-2003, 09:16 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/2003/10/27/iukGrPt9.jpg

"Jos...what's happening? Listen...ummmm, you know how you said you'd take a pay cut if we re-signed Bartolo? Yeah, well, see the thing is...I don't think he's coming back. Uh huh. I know. Yeah, and I agree. <laughter> She's fine, and you? That's great. Getting back to the reason I called...this is just a hypothetical situation, but say Bartolo doesn't return to this club next year. Umm, where do you...stand...on taking a paycut? Now keep in mind, we have a number of p...hello? Josie, you there?"

Daver
10-28-2003, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Umm, where do you...stand...on taking a paycut? Now keep in mind, we have a number of p...hello? Josie, you there?"


Jose has already taken less pay to stay with the Sox once,I'd be willing to bet he would do it again.

mikef1331
10-28-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by cornball
For that type of money (probably a little more) I would rather have Kaz. All other Japanese players that have come to the majors have had an impact and he was touted higher than his names sake on the Yankees.

5MM when your watching every penny......stupid!!!! It can't be true.

I agree. I'm a Jose fan, but for that kind of money I'd rather see the Sox pick up Kaz Matsui or Miguel Tejada.

duke of dorwood
10-28-2003, 09:59 PM
Because he's an effective LEFT HANDED bat-nuf said

batmanZoSo
10-28-2003, 10:02 PM
mike,

Sure, I'd take Miguel Tejada for 5 million, too if it were possible. And it's not.

But I believe Kaz is in that range and thus could be had if we weren't so passive in the free agent market all the time. It would generate a lot of good publicity. If we seized this opportunity, it would be a great first step in bringing this franchise into greatness and the public's eye. But we won't.

Gee, when have I thought that before with this team?...

joecrede
10-28-2003, 10:06 PM
I don't think $5M for Valentin is out of line at all. He had an .880 OPS v. righties last year. Shortstops who can put up those numbers for 450+ plate appearances don't grow on trees.

mikef1331
10-28-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo

But I believe Kaz is in that range and thus could be had if we weren't so passive in the free agent market all the time. It would generate a lot of good publicity. If we seized this opportunity, it would be a great first step in bringing this franchise into greatness and the public's eye. But we won't.
G

I agree the sox really need to be more agressive in the free agaent market.

cornball
10-28-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Jose has already taken less pay to stay with the Sox once,I'd be willing to bet he would do it again.

If he goes in the open market, he would not command a 5MM payday. So why would we pay him that. If we sign him to a 2 year 10MM contract, everyone will be complaining like they are now for Paul Konerko.

JRIG
10-28-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I don't think $5M for Valentin is out of line at all. He had an .880 OPS v. righties last year. Shortstops who can put up those numbers for 450+ plate appearances don't grow on trees.

Yes, but, he's strictly platoon player because he can't hit lefties at all. Which means you need a pretty capable utility guy to fill in for him whenever a lefty is on the mound. And that's probably an extra million for that player. So now we're talking $6 million.

I love Jose. But even I can't justify that kind of money for him.

Brian26
10-28-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I don't think $5M for Valentin is out of line at all. He had an .880 OPS v. righties last year. Shortstops who can put up those numbers for 450+ plate appearances don't grow on trees.


Ugh. What about shortstops that put up 35 errors a season or can't hit lefthanders pitching beachballs to the plate? It's a give-and-take with Jose. He'll hit 3 dingers in a meaningless blowout game in Kansas City, but he'll have 4 strikeouts in a huge game against the Twins. Jose had a big hit to win that Cubs game last year, but he let us down too many times for $5 mil. He's about as one-dimensional as they come. Unfortunately, the Sox don't have a whole heck of a lot in the minor leagues right now unless Kelly Paris or Tim Hulett are still working the Triple A circuit.

TheRockinMT
10-28-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by mikef1331
I agree. I'm a Jose fan, but for that kind of money I'd rather see the Sox pick up Kaz Matsui or Miguel Tejada.


For the kind of money that Jose V will probably accept from the Sox you won't ever see Kaz or Tejada in a Sox uniform.

JRIG
10-28-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Ugh. What about shortstops that put up 35 errors a season or can't hit lefthanders pitching beachballs to the plate?

I'll half defend Jose here. His range means he gets to a lot more balls than other shortstops. But we've had that debate before.

I'll point out here that when playing a full season, Jose has had more 20 error seasons (3 -- 20, 21, 22) than "35 error seasons" (2 -- 37 and 36). So, from now on, can we refer to him as a 20- error shortstop?

joecrede
10-28-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Yes, but, he's strictly platoon player because he can't hit lefties at all. Which means you need a pretty capable utility guy to fill in for him whenever a lefty is on the mound. And that's probably an extra million for that player. So now we're talking $6 million.

I love Jose. But even I can't justify that kind of money for him.

Valentine/Graffanino is a nice offensive combo at short. Though I do have serious reservations about Graff defensively.

Daver
10-28-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Valentine/Graffanino.

There is no one named Valentine on the White Sox 40 man roster.

Dub25
10-28-2003, 10:34 PM
Just wondering. Is Jose the type of grinder that KW is looking for? I thought he was going to go out of the organization to find some of those? I already have my mid season stomach aches and we just started the off season.

batmanZoSo
10-28-2003, 10:36 PM
JRIG,

I'm in favor of Jose as well. He's just an interesting player, very unique. If you take away the throwing errors, he's a gold glove shortstop in my opinion. Of course, you can't take them away, but nevertheless. And looking at his total numbers, not very good, but as a left hander, he's outstanding, period. .263 25 homers with and obp around .350. It's very simple...get a backup who can hit left handers and hold his own at short. I don't think Graffanino cuts it over there, second yes, third yes, but he doesn't have the range to play short and make the long throws at the same time. As someone noted earlier, we have to get another shortstop to hit lefties which will cost us likely a million....well that's 6 million for a collective great shortstop. That's a good deal if you ask me. And you can't say enough about his leadership.

He doesn't make big errors. They don't make us lose games and most often don't even cost us a run. Didn't he make something like 17 this year? A guy named Jeter has topped that more than once in his career. And I'm pretty sure Jose has a higher RF, correct me if I'm wrong. But I am sure he has a higher one than a lot of shortstops people consider better than he.

MisterB
10-28-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
On the way home from work, Bruce Levine said the Sox will be picking up his 5 million dollar option for next year.

That's interesting considering he's already filed for free agency. Perhaps he meant the Sox have reached a new deal with him, because he couldn't have filed if the option was still in play.

Lip Man 1
10-28-2003, 10:44 PM
Folks:

A few points.

Someone mentioned the Sox still going out and trying to sign Colon. I suggest you go to the Tribune website and read the top story on it. It's from the AP. It quotes Kenny Williams. The Colon dream is over, the Sox are moving on.

As far as Kaz Matsui that everyone seems to think the Sox can get, folks the Mariners paid 12 million just for the right to talk with Ichiro! They they had to pay him more money to sign him.

You can forget about Matsui, under no way shape or form will he even consider the White Sox. This is a pipedream. The Sox claim they simply do not have the money.

Ditto for Tejada, there's nothing else left but Jose for their price range.

You simply can't buy a Cadillac on a Chevy budget.

Lip

joecrede
10-28-2003, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
You simply can't buy a Cadillac on a Chevy budget.

The Marlins did, Lip. :D:

MisterB
10-28-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The Marlins did, Lip. :D:

They didn't buy the Cadillac, they built it from scratch.

joecrede
10-28-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Daver
There is no one named Valentine on the White Sox 40 man roster.

I've decided to add an "e" to Valentin's name because of his poor fielding. :D:

Lip Man 1
10-28-2003, 11:06 PM
Joe Crede:

It's spelled F-L-U-K-E. You remember that word don't you? The Sox used it in 2000.

Lip

Win1ForMe
10-28-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

As far as Kaz Matsui that everyone seems to think the Sox can get, folks the Mariners paid 12 million just for the right to talk with Ichiro! They they had to pay him more money to sign him.
Lip

Not that it matters, but this is a completely different situation. Kaz is a free agent and not under contract like Ichiro was when he came to the Mariners. Big difference.

batmanZoSo
10-28-2003, 11:12 PM
How come our flukes end in the first round, but other teams get to go all the way? Life sucks.

joecrede
10-28-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Joe Crede:

It's spelled F-L-U-K-E. You remember that word don't you? The Sox used it in 2000.

Lip

Okay, let's say the Marlins winning the World Series was a fluke. How did the Yankees lose the World Series with a $150-60M payroll?

bc2k
10-29-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
It's a give-and-take with Jose. He'll hit 3 dingers in a meaningless blowout game in Kansas City, but he'll have 4 strikeouts in a huge game against the Twins. Jose had a big hit to win that Cubs game last year, but he let us down too many times for $5 mil. He's about as one-dimensional as they come.

Let's not forget who was the most clutch man on this team for a couple of years. His batting average with men on base/scoring position was outrageously high.

This move splits me in two. Jose is one of the few who cares more about winning than maximizing his bankroll. OTHO, I don't think he's our best option at SS.

If anyone should be overpaid on this team, I hope it is Valentin since he did turn down money in the past to play for our team. BUT, As much as I respect the way Valentin conducts his business, if he's not platooning I'll be upset.

I also think Jose will be able tap his full talent with Ozzie as his manager. Jose didn't show as much enthusiasm last year, and I think he just got crushed from the lack of desire surrounding him (teammates and manager). Ozzie can revitalize Jose.

Brian26
10-29-2003, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
I've decided to add an "e" to Valentin's name because of his poor fielding. :D:

LOL. Nice save.

Gumshoe
10-29-2003, 01:12 AM
If the Sox could make the big move (fire manuel like Marlins fired and hired McKeon), we might be celebrating a WS championship right now. I don't trust KW, but I do KNOW that Jose Valentin means more to the Chicago White Sox than you stat freaks think. I'd ship Frank and pay $5 MIL to Jose right now --- no questions asked. You'll call me crazy, but I know how much a winner Jose is, and how much he is to the clubhouse.

gumshoe

ps - I think it went unnoticed how good Jose was with the glove last year. He made terrific plays and for a 3 month stretch was absolutely fantastic. No one said anything because he's supposed to do that, but his range and his defense were big time.

mikef1331
10-29-2003, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
For the kind of money that Jose V will probably accept from the Sox you won't ever see Kaz or Tejada in a Sox uniform.

I would never expect Kaz or Tejada to come to the Sox for that kind of money.
But, now that the deal w/ Colon has gone sour the Sox can afford to spend 6+mil on a top SS.

note: I don't think Kaz will ever sign w/ the Sox. He'll probably end up on a west coast team :smile:

crector
10-29-2003, 06:42 AM
Valentin is already a "top SS." He is a proven team player in a sport that all too often has players who only care about themselves. That in itself makes him a desirable member of the 2004 Sox.

What we're seeing here is yet another example of the Self-Hating Sox Fan Syndrome that all too often manifests itself on this forum in which if a player is either a Sox or is being sought by the Sox, then he is automatically no good and/or ought to be traded right away.

If Valentin was the SS for another team, there would be calls on this board for the Sox to go after him. Ditto for Big Frank.

Tejada helped ruin Oakland's chance of beating Boston in the ALDS with his poor base running. Do we really want someone like that here clogging up the Sox payroll when we already have a proven team player in Valentin?

CLR01
10-29-2003, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
And you can't say enough about his leadership.



Three straight years of corpseball. Thats some leadership lets make him the new manager.

dougs78
10-29-2003, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
On the way home from work, Bruce Levine said the Sox will be picking up his 5 million dollar option for next year.

If we are trying to come up with money for colon, or another possible front-line starter, why in the hell do we give a bad fielding, home run swinging shortstop 5 million?

The only reason I can think of is we are signing Colon no matter what.

I think Williams is going to go for it this year, and bring everyone back except Everitt.

Otherwise, why sign Valentin?


I read that sentence 6 times, just trying to see if I was missing the word "NOT" in between the "will" and the "be".

I simply cannot accept the possibility that we will be paying Jose Valentin 5 million dollars a year after considering our total team payroll and the state of the free agent market at this time.

Picking up that option would be mind-boggling.

cornball
10-29-2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
If the Sox could make the big move (fire manuel like Marlins fired and hired McKeon), we might be celebrating a WS championship right now. I don't trust KW, but I do KNOW that Jose Valentin means more to the Chicago White Sox than you stat freaks think. I'd ship Frank and pay $5 MIL to Jose right now --- no questions asked. You'll call me crazy, but I know how much a winner Jose is, and how much he is to the clubhouse.

gumshoe

ps - I think it went unnoticed how good Jose was with the glove last year. He made terrific plays and for a 3 month stretch was absolutely fantastic. No one said anything because he's supposed to do that, but his range and his defense were big time.

What has Valentine ever won? Are you Jose's brother or something?

Hangar18
10-29-2003, 08:38 AM
SIGN JOSIE CHEAP.......I like him and he does still have a place on this team. USE the Dough TO SIGN KAZ MATSUI
PUBLICITY + MARKETING + GoodSpeed + GoodFielding + LeadoffGuy = Good Times for Sox Fans

Lip Man 1
10-29-2003, 01:14 PM
Joe Crede:

The point is those same Yankees with a 180 million dollar payroll get to the series a hell of a lot more then the teams with a 50 million dollar payroll don't they?

By the way Jeff Loria was quoted at the Marlins victory parade as saying he won't break the team up. Of course according to ESPN to keep the Marlins team intact would force Loria to raise the payroll to 90 million dollars.

Odds of that: slim and none.

and here's an interesting quote from Jose today in the Daily Southtown. Joe Cowley ran a story on him saying that he's pissed at the Sox. "And, yes, sometimes he just wants to do what he wants to do. If he comes back, hopefully he'll be ready to do good things. But if he comes back, we need someone the manager to let him know from Day 1 that he is not in charge, let him know that the manager is." Valentin speaking about a possible return of Frank Thomas.

Lip

Hangar18
10-29-2003, 01:19 PM
wow, who would get him to Get on Track? Guillen or Gaston?

MarkEdward
10-29-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Joe Crede:

It's spelled F-L-U-K-E. You remember that word don't you? The Sox used it in 2000.

Lip

I suppose the 2002 Angels were a fluke. I also suppose the Twins have been a fluke since 2001. And the A's have been a fluke for, what, five years now?

Hangar18
10-29-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

As far as Kaz Matsui that everyone seems to think the Sox can get, folks the Mariners paid 12 million just for the right to talk with Ichiro! They they had to pay him more money to sign him.

Ditto for Tejada, there's nothing else left but Jose for their price range.

You simply can't buy a Cadillac on a Chevy budget.

Lip

I beg to differ on this one.....the Mariners used the 12 million
have-the-right-to-talk-now Money towards his Contract.
Someone pointed that out here already I believe .....
Im starting to get to a point in my life where I WANT the finer
things in life, and this CHEVY is getting a little worn for my tastes
:angry:

Brian26
10-29-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
By the way Jeff Loria was quoted at the Marlins victory parade as saying he won't break the team up. Of course according to ESPN to keep the Marlins team intact would force Loria to raise the payroll to 90 million dollars.

Whoa, there's a big difference between what Wayne H. did with the Marlins after the '97 season and what Loria could do this off-season.

Wayne H. traded away a ton of the veterans on the team to get rid of salary....salary which was taken on just a year prior when he went out and signed all of those free agents. Some of the guys he let go weren't filing for free agency that year, he just simply traded them away for prospects and to cut payroll.

Loria is faced with a situation of everyone coming back, except a couple of guys who are now free agents (ie Castillo). Letting those guys walk for bigger dollars isn't quite the same thing as "breaking up the team". It sounds like he's willing to negotiate contracts instead of dealing with arbitration with the other players.

Just wanted to make that quick point. Letting Castillo or Pierre go as free agents isnt quite the same as trading half the team away in a fire sale.

Hangar18
10-29-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
How come our flukes end in the first round, but other teams get to go all the way? Life sucks.

Excellent response Bruce Wayne Page. I dont think the 2000 Sox were a Fluke at all. 4 of our 5 Starting Pitchers went down with injuries by seasons End, and 3 of them, were the Reason We Got to the PostSeason.

2001 Season was just a Wasted Year, because the SOX FOOLISHLY decided to Roll The Dice and Replace the "Big 3" with 4 Unproven Pitchers (one of whom did end up panning out, a guy named Buehrle).

batmanZoSo
10-29-2003, 02:09 PM
I don't consider 2000 a fluke, but definitely one of those magical years, so I just threw it in there. It's not that they played over their heads like a classic fluke team, but we had some career years and a lot of young players come into their own at the same time.

We should've beaten the Mariners anyway. We got good pitching all series, including a masterpiece by Baldwin and a very solid first playoff appearance for Parque, both of whom were administered those cortizone injections if I'm not mistaken. So you can't blame it on injuries. Valentin and Perry were both banged up, but as I recall they were the only two guys who hit ANYTHING! We lost because we didn't hit, not because of injuries. And partly because of Manuel. If he put in someone other than Bradford and he got the job done, we would've won the game and the whole series probably would've been different. We might have been the ones to sweep. But you can't hang it all on one managerial move that only tied the game. You gotta overcome that stuff as playes.

Magglio could've won game 1 with a single in the bottom of the ninth, but he didn't. Then Foulke came on.

We should've smoked Paul Abbott, but we didn't. Durham led off with a double and Valentin knocked him in, then the heart of the order came up and it all stopped.

Game 3, they were just finished and they knew it. No one did a d#mn thing...again...except for Harold.



The only pitcher that didn't return was Sirotka and he was replaced by a better pitcher in Wells. Siro hasn't thrown a pitch since game 2. So we went in with a better front three than the year before. All things considered, if Wells had at least nearly repeated his 2000 year, we still would've won the division.

AsInWreck
10-29-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


As far as Kaz Matsui that everyone seems to think the Sox can get, folks the Mariners paid 12 million just for the right to talk with Ichiro! They they had to pay him more money to sign him.

Lip

That's because Ichiro was not a FA, the clubs had to make a bid to Ichiro's team for the right to sign him..And then he was signed at 7/mil a year. If I'm not mistaken, Ichiro was the biggest star in Japan, so it would be hard to imagine Matsui going for much more than that. And since he is FA there would be no need to make a bid to his team for the right to sign him

mikef1331
10-29-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by crector

What we're seeing here is yet another example of the Self-Hating Sox Fan Syndrome that all too often manifests itself on this forum in which if a player is either a Sox or is being sought by the Sox, then he is automatically no good and/or ought to be traded right away.

That statement is a load of BS! In fact I like Jose, but now that the Colon deal has gone bad the Sox have a great opprotunity to acquire an allstar/mvp caliber player at SS. Has Jose even been the league MVP, or will he ever be ... I don't think so. He also won't draw an increase in fans that will help pay for his own salary, which Kaz would.

joecrede
10-29-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Joe Crede:

The point is those same Yankees with a 180 million dollar payroll get to the series a hell of a lot more then the teams with a 50 million dollar payroll don't they?

Lip, I'll concede that you might need a $180M payroll to win the American League East, but you do not need that type of payroll to win the American League Central, advance in the playoffs or win the World Series.

RichH55
10-29-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Lip, I'll concede that you might need a $180M payroll to win the American League East, but you do not need that type of payroll to win the American League Central, advance in the playoffs or win the World Series.


Lip won't be happy until the payroll is 180 million...and it has to be spent on the right players too....Even if you sign a guy to big money, you get no points---it will be like it never happened

JRIG
10-30-2003, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Excellent response Bruce Wayne Page. I dont think the 2000 Sox were a Fluke at all. 4 of our 5 Starting Pitchers went down with injuries by seasons End, and 3 of them, were the Reason We Got to the PostSeason.

2001 Season was just a Wasted Year, because the SOX FOOLISHLY decided to Roll The Dice and Replace the "Big 3" with 4 Unproven Pitchers (one of whom did end up panning out, a guy named Buehrle).

And foolishly decided to add "proven veterans" who didn't contribute one iota to the team -- Royce Clayton and Sandy Alomar.

Brian26
10-30-2003, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
And foolishly decided to add "proven veterans" who didn't contribute one iota to the team -- Royce Clayton and Sandy Alomar.

And don't forget the Julio Ramirez debacle. That didn't upset team chemistry at all. Let's see...We'll put Clayton at short, Ramirez in center, bench the Milkman and Singleton, and move Jose over to thirdbase.

:angry:

JRIG
10-30-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
And don't forget the Julio Ramirez debacle. That didn't upset team chemistry at all. Let's see...We'll put Clayton at short, Ramirez in center, bench the Milkman and Singleton, and move Jose over to thirdbase.

:angry:

I will never forget the brief, but entirely unproductive Juilo Ramirez era. It was a sick, sick joke on the fans, the organization, and the other players.

Gumshoe
10-30-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
And don't forget the Julio Ramirez debacle. That didn't upset team chemistry at all. Let's see...We'll put Clayton at short, Ramirez in center, bench the Milkman and Singleton, and move Jose over to thirdbase.

:angry:

Brian, GREAT point. Now do you see why we don't trust ANYTHING KW does?

Gumshoe

crector
10-30-2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by mikef1331
In fact I like Jose.... Has Jose even been the league MVP, or will he ever be ... I don't think so.


So, in other words, you only want to keep Sox players if they're MVP's or are likely to become one....a classic case of Self-Hating Sox Fan Syndrome.

Valentin's a good defensive shortstop with a good arm and a positive attitude who plays the game with gusto.
Dumping him in the hope of getting some big-name player who might go bust in the tradition of David Wells.

Valentin's a proven player. Let's stick with him.

mikef1331
10-30-2003, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by crector
So, in other words, you only want to keep Sox players if they're MVP's or are likely to become one....a classic case of Self-Hating Sox Fan Syndrome.


You are so wrong.... I mention 1 postion that I think the Sox have an opprotunity to improve on and you automatically imply that I want every player on the sox to be an AL MVP. If that was true I'd be calling for 80% of this team to be fired or traded. Where do you come up this stuff?

idseer
10-30-2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by crector

Valentin's a good defensive shortstop with a good arm and a positive attitude who plays the game with gusto.
Dumping him in the hope of getting some big-name player who might go bust in the tradition of David Wells.

Valentin's a proven player. Let's stick with him.

amazing how people get an idea in their heads and stick with it no matter what the reality is.

you are exactly wrong. jose is one of the worst fielding ss's with a strong but very inaccurate arm who can't hit lefthanders and has proven nothing in his career other than making some sox fans smile because of his sosa impersonation a few years ago. he's an aging (35 next season) lifetime under .250 hitter with a little pop, who is making noises about frank now that everyone vilified konerko for last year. just how has valentin helped this team, and what makes you think he's so unreplaceable?

steff
10-30-2003, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I'll beleive when I see it in a press release from the Sox,Bruce Levine has been known to only know half the story.


Agree. From what I've heard they are paying him, but he's taking a pay cut. He mentioned this earlier in the season as well.

TraderTim
10-30-2003, 02:01 PM
Jose...bleah!

Two things I really hated about the 2003 Sox:

Jose batting right-handed...

Several slow guys [and Maggs] grounding into double plays, over and over and over.

Please make it go away!

dickallen15
10-30-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by steff
Agree. From what I've heard they are paying him, but he's taking a pay cut. He mentioned this earlier in the season as well.

If he wants to play baseball next season, be it for the White Sox or anyone else, he's going to have to take a pay cut. A big pay cut.

pudge
10-30-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Lip, I'll concede that you might need a $180M payroll to win the American League East, but you do not need that type of payroll to win the American League Central, advance in the playoffs or win the World Series.

Very true, but then it all depends on how you build your team... we build it with power guys, a team like the Marlins or Angels build it with good pitching and scrappy hitters.

Deadguy
10-30-2003, 02:28 PM
Do the Sox have some kind of deadline on when they have to decide whether or not they want to pick up Jose's option?

If the Sox let Jose go, and have no luck with any of the big name free agent SS's, what is our back up plan?

I'd like to see what interest the Sox get from other free agents before letting Jose go. At $5 million, he's not a terrible option. He has terrific range, is a leader, and has always been clutch.

I just hope he cuts his strike outs down, and quits swinging for the fences. We don't need that from him.

Iwritecode
10-30-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
If you take away the throwing errors, he's a gold glove shortstop in my opinion.

I haven't looked for a little while but the last time I did, his errors while with the Sox have been split almost exactly down the middle between throwing and fielding. So taking away his throwing errors would give him an average of about about 10-15 errors per year. (I think)

MiamiSpartan1
10-30-2003, 02:50 PM
As much as I'd hate to lose him for the Marlins, I'd rather see the Sox go after Gonzalez, who is at least a top defensive SS with some pop in his bat...I'm sure he can be had, because the Fish have a SS prospect in AAA, who they would like to bring up...

batmanZoSo
10-30-2003, 02:53 PM
Iwritecode,

You could be right, but practically every shortstop makes 10-15 errors. They win gold gloves with that many. You get a lot of chances over there...it's the busiest position on the field if I'm not mistaken. But the most important thing about Valentin is that he makes the plays he needs to make in crunch time. He makes his errors in the 3rd inning. If the bases are loaded with one out and a one run lead... if they hit a grounder to him, he's gonna turn it.

He only made 20 errors at pretty much a full season at shortstop (143). 96 double plays despite playing mostly with Jimenez who might have less range than I do. Factor in that Jose doesn't make big errors, and you have a pretty solid shortstop. His bigger problem is hitting right handed. We can't let him do that anymore. Hopefully there's an answer out there and we find it. I'm not big on Graffanino. He should only fill in for Alomar and Crede...and hopefully Crede becomes the guy we expected him to be and never needs a day off.

Other than Matsui who is most likely a pipe dream, there is no better option out there. Not for 5 million...and he said himself he'd be content to take less than that.

washington
10-30-2003, 03:02 PM
I'd like Valentin a lot more if he would keep his mouth shut more. Ditto Konerko.

SoxxoS
10-30-2003, 03:26 PM
I would like Jose a lot more if he would just hit left handed.

Look at the bright side. If we sign Jose and Alomar, and put Borchard in center...we have the three worst switch hitters in baseball!!!

Iwritecode
10-30-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Iwritecode,

You could be right, but practically every shortstop makes 10-15 errors. They win gold gloves with that many. You get a lot of chances over there...it's the busiest position on the field if I'm not mistaken.

I wasn't really arguing the point either way. Just stating a fact.

Originally posted by batmanZoSo
But the most important thing about Valentin is that he makes the plays he needs to make in crunch time. He makes his errors in the 3rd inning. If the bases are loaded with one out and a one run lead... if they hit a grounder to him, he's gonna turn it.

Yea, I figured that out a couple of years ago.

2000 errors (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/Columnists/Iwritecode/ValentinErrors.htm)

2001 errors (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=137)

I never bothered with 2002 or 2003 but I'm sure his trend probably continued. I don't remember him making any errors that led to an 8-run inning or anything like that...

*coughgongalez8thinninggame6oftheNLCSchough*

Sorry, I started to choke there for a second... :D:

maurice
10-30-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
But the most important thing about Valentin is that he makes the plays he needs to make in crunch time. He makes his errors in the 3rd inning.

An error in the 3rd inning IS a big error, just like a HR in the 3rd inning is a big HR. It might not be memorable, but it occurred when the game was still in doubt.

Originally posted by batmanZoSo
He only made 20 errors at pretty much a full season at shortstop (143).

Only three MLB SSs made more errors than Valentin in what was one of his best defensive years. Every SS with more errors played significantly more games than Valentin.

SIGN KAZ MATSUI!