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View Full Version : Thomas to exercise option


Jjav829
10-28-2003, 08:43 AM
according to Joe Cowley today.

Thomas was discouraged by the state of the free-agent market last offseason, and he doesn't want to go through a similar situation. The bottom line is he doesn't think he can get better than the $6 million he will receive from the Sox.

"Chicago is where he wants to be," one Sox player said Monday. "Unless something changes in the next few days ... he's telling us that he'll be back."


This is interesting:

A year later, Williams has been hoping Thomas would decline his option so that the Sox could free up some salary in order to make more moves. One insider said Williams had targeted Yankees left-handed hitter Nick Johnson to fill the DH role and split time at first base with Paul Konerko.

Full story (A year later, Williams has been hoping Thomas would decline his option so that the Sox could free up some salary in order to make more moves. One insider said Williams had targeted Yankees left-handed hitter Nick Johnson to fill the DH role and split time at first base with Paul Konerko.)

Hangar18
10-28-2003, 09:12 AM
IM glad THOMAS IS BACK. I want him to play 1B Exclusively also

Deadguy
10-28-2003, 09:17 AM
Unlike Fatolo, I guess Frank really is happy in Chicago.

He better get to play 140+ games at 1st Base as well, and let GIDPaul handle the DH duties.

RKMeibalane
10-28-2003, 09:19 AM
Good... good... (evil laugh).

StepsInSC
10-28-2003, 09:19 AM
In your face bc2k!


Hehe j/k, woohoo for Frank!

anewman35
10-28-2003, 09:41 AM
Does Frank picking up the option mean he's stuck with us now for the length of the contract, or is it a yearly decision? In other words, do we go through this again next year?

hold2dibber
10-28-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Does Frank picking up the option mean he's stuck with us now for the length of the contract, or is it a yearly decision? In other words, do we go through this again next year?

It is an annual decision. Same thing each year (although the $ involved increases each year).

Chisox_cali
10-28-2003, 10:06 AM
If it's the "Screw You, I'm swinging for the Fences" Thomas than I don't want him back. But if he shoots the ball to all fields, and doesn't go for homers only, than I'll take him back. I don't want this .250-.260 all or nothing pop-up machine of the last 2 years

anewman35
10-28-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
It is an annual decision. Same thing each year (although the $ involved increases each year).

So unless Frank has a MVP season, he decides he really hates the team, or the free agent market goes insane again, there's not a whole lot of chance he's going anywhere for a while, I think. Which I like, it'll be nice to have a homegrown 500 home run hitter (he needs 82 more, so it could be as soon as the end of 2005, but probably 2006.)

Brian26
10-28-2003, 10:22 AM
I shot a call into Frank last week on his cell just to reassure him that everything is cool for him in Chicago.

Rocky Soprano
10-28-2003, 10:54 AM
I really hope Frank does come back!

minastirith67
10-28-2003, 11:33 AM
I like the idea of Big Frank and Nick Johnson, get rid of PK, his value has depreciated significantly.

voodoochile
10-28-2003, 11:53 AM
Thanks, Frank! :D:

TDog
10-28-2003, 12:18 PM
In other words, he doesn't want to call management's bluff.

I love Frank, but he signed a stupid contract.

anewman35
10-28-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by TDog
In other words, he doesn't want to call management's bluff.

I love Frank, but he signed a stupid contract.

How is setting yourself up to get millions of dollars, and yet still having the option to leave if you think you can get more, stupid?

Now, if you want to talk stupid, diminished skills, now that was stupid.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-28-2003, 12:23 PM
At $6 million per year, Frank Thomas will be an absolute steal for the Sox, especially compared to other firstbasemen. This assumes the new manager has more sense than the old one did to use him where he hits the best.

I really don't care what Frank "says" about his philosophy at the plate. Whether he is taking pitches or swinging for dingers, the only thing that matters is his OBP and slugging numbers. Only an idiot like Jerry Manuel could find somethng not to like about what Frank Thomas *alone* can give the Sox offense.

These guys can't hack it ----------->:caballo :maggs :walnuts

The double-play trio.

TDog
10-28-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
How is setting yourself up to get millions of dollars, and yet still having the option to leave if you think you can get more, stupid?

Now, if you want to talk stupid, diminished skills, now that was stupid.

You're right. He has a less stupid contract than he had previously. Maybe he's getting smarter.

But while the contract guarantees him millions, he doesn't have the character to take full advantage of it, which is a good thing for Frank Thomas fans.

anewman35
10-28-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by TDog
You're right. He has a less stupid contract than he had previously. Maybe he's getting smarter.

But while the contract guarantees him millions, he doesn't have the character to take full advantage of it, which is a good thing for Frank Thomas fans.

And I think he'll somehow find a way to scrape by on the millions and millions he's already getting. The way I figure it, once you have $50 million or so, what's another couple million here or there?

Foulke You
10-28-2003, 12:54 PM
Finally, some good news for the Sox. Frank Thomas, the greatest hitter in Sox history replaced by....Nick Johnson?!! C'mon KW, was that your plan B for losing Frank? (Shudders)

Thank God Frank is coming back. He makes the Sox offense go. Now, sign a replacement starter for Bartolo and get me Latroy Hawkins in the bullpen and I'll be a happy guy. :D:

Nick@Nite
10-28-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
IM glad THOMAS IS BACK. I want him to play 1B Exclusively also

Yep!

Originally posted by Deadguy
Unlike Fatolo, I guess Frank really is happy in Chicago.

He better get to play 140+ games at 1st Base as well, and let GIDPaul handle the DH duties.

Yep, Yep!

Dadawg_77
10-28-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Finally, some good news for the Sox. Frank Thomas, the greatest hitter in Sox history replaced by....Nick Johnson?!! C'mon KW, was that your plan B for losing Frank? (Shudders)

Thank God Frank is coming back. He makes the Sox offense go. Now, sign a replacement starter for Bartolo and get me Latroy Hawkins in the bullpen and I'll be a happy guy. :D:

Hey maybe the Sox still can get Johnson to replace PaulGIDP

Foulke You
10-28-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Hey maybe the Sox still can get Johnson to replace PaulGIDP

If it is 2003 version of Konerko he is replacing, yes that would be nice especially if King George takes on that huge contract. I keep hoping for 2002 Konerko to come back next year because I think we are stuck with Paulie for better or worse. Hopefully it is better!

Dadawg_77
10-28-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
If it is 2003 version of Konerko he is replacing, yes that would be nice especially if King George takes on that huge contract. I keep hoping for 2002 Konerko to come back next year because I think we are stuck with Paulie for better or worse. Hopefully it is better!

2002 Konerko was smoke and mirrors. While I don't think Paul is as bad as his 2003 was, he is an average player. He isn't great, on a MLB level, player nor will he ever be that. What the Sox can do is use him in the best possible way. He can be a very good platoon partner as he can smoke lefties but struggles vs righties. Find a cheap guy who can't hit lefties and pair them together.

harwar
10-28-2003, 02:25 PM
This is the first good news that i've heard in some time.
I may be a sentimental old fool but i have always felt that any post-season appearance would be empty with the Big Hurt.
Now we just have to go out and win it all.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-28-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
2002 Konerko was smoke and mirrors. While I don't think Paul is as bad as his 2003 was, he is an average player. He isn't great, on a MLB level, player nor will he ever be that. What the Sox can do is use him in the best possible way. He can be a very good platoon partner as he can smoke lefties but struggles vs righties. Find a cheap guy who can't hit lefties and pair them together.

Hey dawg, I'm curious about the point you made regarding Konerko's hitting ability. If the new manager were to set up a straight platoon (Konerko facing lefties, and a cheap addition facing righties), how many at-bats could Paul Konerko expect to get next season?

I'm bracing for the bad news.

:(:

Dadawg_77
10-28-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Hey dawg, I'm curious about the point you made regarding Konerko's hitting ability. If the new manager were to set up a straight platoon (Konerko facing lefties, and a cheap addition facing righties), how many at-bats could Paul Konerko expect to get next season?

I'm bracing for the bad news.

:(:

A couple hundred, it depends on who the Sox face and if you put Paul in late games as a PH.

But in past three years, 01-03, Paul has had 1213 AB vs Righties and has a .268 avg, .337 OBP, .458 slg. While in 383 ABs facing a lefty Paul has .303 avg, .350 OBP, and a .522 slg. He is something a little bit more telling, 177 K vs right handers, one per ever 6.85 abs, and 34 K vs a lefty or once every 11.2 at bats.

In 2002 he hit Righties considerably better then lefties(almost the reverse of 2003), but since it doesn't vibe with the rest of career, I say it was a fluke.

There are other issues to consider, but I can't find that data but the Sox should have it. Paul seems to hit finesse (Moyer) pitchers better then power pitchers, so maybe Paul can hit right handed finesse pitcher good but doesn't stand a chance vs right handed power guys? Or maybe Paul is better picking up a certain pitch like a sinker, so if a sinkerballer is pitching Paul should play. There is a lot more to consider when creating a platoon other then righty lefty, but it cost money to get those stats so I don't have them.

thepaulbowski
10-28-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Paul seems to hit finesse (Moyer) pitchers better then power pitchers, so maybe Paul can hit right handed finesse pitcher good but doesn't stand a chance vs right handed power guys? Or maybe Paul is better picking up a certain pitch like a sinker, so if a sinkerballer is pitching Paul should play. There is a lot more to consider when creating a platoon other then righty lefty, but it cost money to get those stats so I don't have them.

I thought the Paulie was pretty much dead red hitter, it seemed like he wasn't able to hit the breaking pitches. I don't have stats to back this up, but it just has seemed that way to me. Maybe pitchers started to figure this out?

Dadawg_77
10-28-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
I thought the Paulie was pretty much dead red hitter, it seemed like he wasn't able to hit the breaking pitches. I don't have stats to back this up, but it just has seemed that way to me. Maybe pitchers started to figure this out?

This is just a WAG, but Konero could go there looking fastball and cheating so he can turn on it. But a good pitcher instead of serving a fastball gives a hard slider or a split. Where as junk baller, doesn't have the blazing speed so Konerko doesn't have to cheat to turn on it. Like I said, if I had some money to spend, I could go and get pitch by pitch stats, and break down which pitches and speeds Konerko can handle, but I don't.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-28-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
A couple hundred, it depends on who the Sox face and if you put Paul in late games as a PH.....

Thanks for the estimate. I figured it would 200-300 AB's, depending on whether the manager employed a real platoon or the nonsensical type (anybody's guess who bats vs. who) Jerry Manuel seemed to prefer.

One other benefit of giving Konerko platoon duty: his numbers would begin to look pretty good. Then KW would only need to find one sucker to take Konehead off our hands. The Sox get to pocket the payroll savings or use it someplace that does us some good. Ah, dreams...

john2499
10-28-2003, 03:30 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Foulke You
[B]Finally, some good news for the Sox. Frank Thomas, the greatest hitter in Sox history

Sorry, Joe Jackson was a better hitter. Though Frank is second best.

StepsInSC
10-28-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by john2499
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Foulke You
[B]Finally, some good news for the Sox. Frank Thomas, the greatest hitter in Sox history

Sorry, Joe Jackson was a better hitter. Though Frank is second best.

No.

bc2k
10-28-2003, 03:42 PM
Which, unsurprisingly, is the only exercise Frank has had all offseason.

MarkEdward
10-28-2003, 03:42 PM
Good. Happy to see Thomas back.

Now, if we can somehow get Nick Johnson to patrol first base... wow.

john2499
10-28-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
No.

So the 3rd highest Avg., amongst every man who has played MLB is not as good as Frank ? Interesting.

anewman35
10-28-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by john2499
So the 3rd highest Avg., amongst every man who has played MLB is not as good as Frank ? Interesting.

Joe Jackson didn't exactly have a typical career, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare his career numbers to somebody who has...

MarkEdward
10-28-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Joe Jackson didn't exactly have a typical career, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare his career numbers to somebody who has...

I'd agree with this. Jackson never had a decline phase because he left baseball so early. Therefore, all of his rate stats are going to look "pumped up."

Deadguy
10-28-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by john2499
So the 3rd highest Avg., amongst every man who has played MLB is not as good as Frank ? Interesting.

Joe had his best seasons with another franchise, and if you look at it from a sabermetric standpoint, Frank comes out better:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/jacksjo01.shtml

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/thomafr04.shtml

Joe Jackson had an EQA of .334 for his career, while Frank has an EQA of .345 for his career. Since Joe stopped playing at 30, he also never had to suffer the innevitable decline in average based stats that most players in their 30s face, which is why Joe's PRO+ of 170 is higher than Thomas' PRO+ of 163.

Plus, Frank's Batting Runs above replacement player were consistently higher than Joe Jackson's throughout his career.

Also, in comparing their values as a player, Thomas' Wins above Replacement Player totals are consistently higher. Eddie Collins might be a better argument in the "Greatest Player in White Sox History" argument, but that's another topic.

Deadguy
10-28-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
2002 Konerko was smoke and mirrors.

Actually, when you look at Konerko's splits for 2002, it really shows that he made the All Star team based on what he did in June of that year, when he hit 12 homeruns. He had a decent April, hitting .371, but with a sub .1000 OPS, and then an ok May. Considering the fact that he has only hit twice as many homeruns in the nine playing months since the 12 he hit in June of 2002, more than likely that month was a fluke.

It seems kind of odd that Konkero started to tank as soon as he received a fat contract primarilly based on what he did in June of 2002.

He better get his act together, and perform better in 2004, but I'm praying that he won't even be on the roster next year, and becomes someone elses problem.

batmanZoSo
10-28-2003, 04:19 PM
Statistically, Thomas is one of the top 20 hitters who ever lived. That article posted here recently was really cool. Jackson only appeared in one category if I remember. Maybe if he played now, he'd hit 30 homers a year, but he also wouldn't have a .356 average. Despite that there were less teams then, the league was probably just as watered down as it is today if not more for a few reasons... A lot of his at bats (same with Cobb and co.) were against unbelievably overworked pitchers who consequently had zero stuff working for them probably half the time. They pretty much didn't use bullpens back then and they didn't have closers. There were no Jeff Nelson's around to devastate right handers. And of course there was a ton of pitching talent in the negro leagues being unused, same with the Carribean. That's why some of those early 1900s guys were able to hit .400 so often. Personally, I don't think it will happen again

But batting average is overrated anyway. Thomas would still hit .330 if he hit more bloop singles like he used to. Big deal. It's all about slugging and on-base, and Thomas beats him in both categories, not to mention rbi production (we won't even count home runs because of the era difference).

john2499
10-28-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Joe had his best seasons with another franchise, and if you look at it from a sabermetric standpoint, Frank comes out better:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/jacksjo01.shtml

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/thomafr04.shtml

Joe Jackson had an EQA of .334 for his career, while Frank has an EQA of .345 for his career. Since Joe stopped playing at 30, he also never had to suffer the innevitable decline in average based stats that most players in their 30s face, which is why Joe's PRO+ of 170 is higher than Thomas' PRO+ of 163.

Plus, Frank's Batting Runs above replacement player were consistently higher than Joe Jackson's throughout his career.

Also, in comparing their values as a player, Thomas' Wins above Replacement Player totals are consistently higher. Eddie Collins might be a better argument in the "Greatest Player in White Sox History" argument, but that's another topic.

Good argument. But I do believe Jackson played in the "dead ball" era.
Though my argument seems to be losing momentum. I still would say Jackson was a better hitter.

StepsInSC
10-28-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by john2499
So the 3rd highest Avg., amongst every man who has played MLB is not as good as Frank ? Interesting.

Sure, in the world where Average is the only criteria used for determining good hitters.

However this isn't that world.

john2499
10-28-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Sure, in the world where Average is the only criteria used for determining good hitters.

However this isn't that world.

What about....
Triples
Doubles
Stolen bases

How about a .345 WS Avg. And he supposedly threw one. Frank's lofty playoff Avg. is .231, and an 0 for Seattle, with 8 pop-ups.

But Frank probably would have still hit 37 HRs per year with that "mush" ball, right ?

Don't forget those "tiny" ballparks Jackson hit in either.

jortafan
10-28-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Joe Jackson didn't exactly have a typical career, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare his career numbers to somebody who has...

Also, Jackson's career was split with Cleveland and the Sox, with him actually playing slightly more games with the Indians. They would have just as much a claim to him on an all-time team as we would.

By comparison, Big Frank is all ours (for the time being).

john2499
10-28-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by jortafan
Also, Jackson's career was split with Cleveland and the Sox, with him actually playing slightly more games with the Indians. They would have just as much a claim to him on an all-time team as we would.

By comparison, Big Frank is all ours (for the time being).

Good point. I wish that was the same with Fisk. It seems like he played with Boston longer.

ohalloran
10-28-2003, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by john2499
Good point. I wish that was the same with Fisk. It seems like he played with Boston longer.

Actually, I think Pudge played more games for the White Sox.

john2499
10-28-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by ohalloran
Actually, I think Pudge played more games for the White Sox.

He did. But the perception is, he didn't. After all, he does wear a Boston cap in the HOF.

RKMeibalane
10-28-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by john2499
He did. But the perception is, he didn't. After all, he does wear a Boston cap in the HOF.

MLB tries to screw the Sox over anyway they can. The only way to change that is to win consistently.

Daver
10-28-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
MLB tries to screw the Sox over anyway they can. The only way to change that is to win consistently.

Fisk was allowed to choose the cap on his plaque in the HOF.

MLB has no control over the Baseball HOF.

batmanZoSo
10-28-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
MLB tries to screw the Sox over anyway they can. The only way to change that is to win consistently.

D'oh!

JRIG
10-28-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Fisk was allowed to choose the cap on his plaque in the HOF.

MLB has no control over the Baseball HOF.

That's actually not true anymore, Daver. MLB does decide what cap the player wears. If I recall correctly, Gary Carter desperately wanted to go in as a Met, but MLB decided he's an Expo.

flo-B-flo
10-28-2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by john2499
He did. But the perception is, he didn't. After all, he does wear a Boston cap in the HOF. Fisk's homer in the WS will always tip it to Boston. The American league scrubs win again.

Daver
10-28-2003, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
That's actually not true anymore, Daver. MLB does decide what cap the player wears. If I recall correctly, Gary Carter desperately wanted to go in as a Met, but MLB decided he's an Expo.

MLB has no say,the HOF has it's own officers,and all decisions are made by them.Fisk was the last player that was allowed to choose which cap he wore.

The MLB offices have absolutely no control over anything regarding the HOF.

JRIG
10-28-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Daver
MLB has no say,the HOF has it's own officers,and all decisions are made by them.Fisk was the last player that was allowed to choose which cap he wore.

The MLB offices have absolutely no control over anything regarding the HOF.

You are correct. I merely meant the players no longer have any say on what hat they wear into the Hall.

Brian26
10-28-2003, 10:16 PM
Which hopefully will prevent ridiculous crap like Wade Boggs going in with the Devil Rays cap, if he ever goes.

Frankfan4life
10-28-2003, 11:08 PM
Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank!

Frankly speaking, I'm so happy you're staying!

:hurt Let me be Frank!

BeerHandle
10-29-2003, 12:05 AM
I'm glad Frank will be back, but I don't want Nick Johnson. Thomas at first everyday (weel at least 130 games) and PK at DH

bc2k
10-29-2003, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Unlike Fatolo, I guess Frank really is happy in Chicago.

Baloney; Frank and Bartolo both followed the money.

Maybe I misunderstood your post: Does Fatolo refer to Frank or Bart?

crector
10-29-2003, 07:44 AM
Maybe I misunderstood your post: Does Fatolo refer to Frank or Bart?

Whatever, troll.

maurice
10-29-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The MLB offices have absolutely no control over anything regarding the HOF.

This is true, except to the extent that HOF rules allow MLB to make certain candidates (e.g., Pete Rose) ineligible for the HOF by banning them from MLB. OTOH, the HOF is free to change its rules and admit banned players without the permission of MLB.

RKMeibalane
10-29-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Baloney; Frank and Bartolo both followed the money.

Maybe I misunderstood your post: Does Fatolo refer to Frank or Bart?

Whatever credibility you gained by supporting Frank during the season has now been lost because your recent trolling. Not liking Frank is one thing. Inventing ways to make fun of him and trash his reputation is something else entirely. If I were you, I would stop doing it.