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View Full Version : Sell me on Cito Gaston


Jjav829
10-27-2003, 05:46 PM
Ok, so who wants to play a game? The game is called "Sell me on Cito Gaston". Anyone can play. Hell, it's not just me but probably quite a few others that you are selling on the idea of Cito Gaston as White Sox manager.

I don't like Gaston. I don't want him as White Sox manager. However, it's seemingly becoming more likely that he will be the Sox next manager. I want to like him and I want to be excited about Gaston, but I just can't. So I am turning to my fellow WSI posters here to try and convince me that Cito Gaston is the right man.

Here is what I see and the reason why I don't want him. I don't think he is that different than Jerry Manuel. You want emotion? You're not getting it in Gaston. Anyone who has ever complained about Manuel being asleep, well Gaston is just as bad, possibly worse. They used to joke about waking him up in Toronto. We are talking about a guy with a .518 winning percentage in his career. In comparison, Jerry Manuel has a career .512 winning percentage. Yes, Gaston has won two World Series with some good teams. Thats the only difference I see. Hes still a guy who is going to allow himself to become KW's bitch and while I'm more of a KW supporter than I used to be, I still want him out of the clubhouse. Gaston isn't going to be the guy to do that. So, why fire Manuel and hire a guy who is basically the same guy in Gaston? Someone please convince me that this is the right move. Please!

This isn't an endorsement of any other options because frankly, none of them impress me. I want more than "He's better than the other options". I'm open to all arguments. So, can someone please sell me on why I should be excited about Cito Gaston as manager?

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 05:52 PM
Gaston is more in control of the Clubhouse than Jerry was and goes with a set lineup early in the season.

He has won two World Series rings - back2back and regardless of what people say, that takes skill.

He wants to manage an experienced playoff capable roster, so if the Sox sign him, it is strong evidence that they will be attempting to reload and upgrade instead of dumping and going for with youngsters.

JRIG
10-27-2003, 05:57 PM
Cito Gaston is not Jerry Manuel.

Hey, it can't hurt.

nasox
10-27-2003, 11:44 PM
u want me to sell cito to you? itll cost u, 20 bucks. :D:

AsInWreck
10-28-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Ok, so who wants to play a game? The game is called "Sell me on Cito Gaston". Anyone can play.


I'll give ya half off of this here turd I just squeezed out, ok 80% off. Ok you can have it.

lowesox
10-28-2003, 12:54 AM
Cito is like Manuel, but with less class and more arrogance. Cito was notorious in Toronto during the World Series years for not managing - so as far as I'm concerned his rings mean far less. The players seemed to like him, but the media does not. He is like a much worse version of Manuel - and I wanted Manuel to be fired.

Incidentally, I'm not just spouting off here. I lived in Toronto for the Gaston era - he truly is awful. Everybody here wanted him fired. And I mean more than people wanted rid of Manuel.

I'm worried - it looks like we might lose Colon and Gordon and maybe Thomas and now we're going to have this moron as a manager. This is about a grim a future I can think of for the sox.

WhiteSox = Life
10-28-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Cito is like Manuel, but with less class and more arrogance. Cito was notorious in Toronto during the World Series years for not managing - so as far as I'm concerned his rings mean far less. The players seemed to like him, but the media does not. He is like a much worse version of Manuel - and I wanted Manuel to be fired.

Incidentally, I'm not just spouting off here. I lived in Toronto for the Gaston era - he truly is awful. Everybody here wanted him fired. And I mean more than people wanted rid of Manuel.

I'm worried - it looks like we might lose Colon and Gordon and maybe Thomas and now we're going to have this moron as a manager. This is about a grim a future I can think of for the sox.

:reinsy
"That's odd, because the word 'grim' has never been associated with this organization or me before."

Jjav829
10-28-2003, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Gaston is more in control of the Clubhouse than Jerry was and goes with a set lineup early in the season.

He has won two World Series rings - back2back and regardless of what people say, that takes skill.

He wants to manage an experienced playoff capable roster, so if the Sox sign him, it is strong evidence that they will be attempting to reload and upgrade instead of dumping and going for with youngsters.

Ehh sorry voodoo, thanks for trying, but I'm still not buying. I do like the fact that he wouldn't tinker with the lineup. But I think thats more because he doesn't like to do much of anything. Hes not the type of manager who likes to force action which wouldn't fit well with the grinders that KW is supposedly going to get. He doesn't like to steal, hit and run, or basically employ any strategy in the games.

The World Series rings are nice, but he did do it with some good teams. Which is why he wants an experienced team. He doesn't want to have to do much other than make out the lineup card. I don't like that. I think that leaves us with a similar dead clubhouse like we had before. I think there are some guys in the clubhouse who need a kick in the ass and Everett pretty much said that. Gaston isn't going to be the guy to do that.

I'll predict this right now. If Gaston is hired, the site will be loaded with Fire Cito Gaston comments and people wondering why he was hired to replace a similar manager in Manuel.

bestkosher
10-28-2003, 08:42 AM
does anyone remeber those heart breaking playoff appearnce loses to the Blue Jays. Who was the manager then? HMMMMMMMMMMMmm.. They seemed playoff ready. Against a pretty good white sox team. I still have the papaer sitting in my drawer somewhere. If Cito could beat us with his style why the heck not embrace it.

hold2dibber
10-28-2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Ehh sorry voodoo, thanks for trying, but I'm still not buying. I do like the fact that he wouldn't tinker with the lineup. But I think thats more because he doesn't like to do much of anything. Hes not the type of manager who likes to force action which wouldn't fit well with the grinders that KW is supposedly going to get. He doesn't like to steal, hit and run, or basically employ any strategy in the games.

The World Series rings are nice, but he did do it with some good teams. Which is why he wants an experienced team. He doesn't want to have to do much other than make out the lineup card. I don't like that. I think that leaves us with a similar dead clubhouse like we had before. I think there are some guys in the clubhouse who need a kick in the ass and Everett pretty much said that. Gaston isn't going to be the guy to do that.

I'll predict this right now. If Gaston is hired, the site will be loaded with Fire Cito Gaston comments and people wondering why he was hired to replace a similar manager in Manuel.

(1) Gaston won 2 world series rings with a good team. Manuel won 1 division title with a good team. The fact is, when Gaston was the Blue Jays manager, his team played hard and with focus. We don't know what goes on behind the clubhouse door, but the fact remains, Gaston got his teams to play up to their talent level. Saying "he won with good teams" is b.s. and an unfair criticism. It doesn't necessarily take a kick in the ass to make guys play hard and focus. Torre doesn't kick ass. Instead, he creates a clubhouse atmosphere of accountability and professionalism. That's what the Sox need and what Gaston had in Toronto.

(2) No matter who the Sox manager is, there are going to be fans calling for his head after the first 2 game losing streak. That's the nature of the beast. I can't think of a single White Sox manager in my lifetime that didn't have some segment of Sox fans up in arms and calling for his head.

moochpuppy
10-28-2003, 10:03 AM
My only question about Cito Gaston is where the Hell has he been since leaving the Blue Jays? Why has no one else tried to bring him back as a manager? :?:

Iwritecode
10-28-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
My only question about Cito Gaston is where the Hell has he been since leaving the Blue Jays? Why has no one else tried to bring him back as a manager? :?:


According to the Cubune: (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-031026soxmanagerialsearchgaston,1,2395262.story?co ll=cs-whitesox-promo)

"Since leaving the Blue Jays late in the 1997 season, Gaston was considered for managerial vacancies in Cleveland and Milwaukee. Anaheim reportedly wanted to hire him after the 2000 season, but Gaston turned down the team's interview request, citing family concerns.

Gaston also turned down subsequent chances to become Boston's hitting coach and Montreal's bench coach."

Foulke You
10-28-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by bestkosher
does anyone remeber those heart breaking playoff appearnce loses to the Blue Jays. Who was the manager then? HMMMMMMMMMMMmm.. They seemed playoff ready. Against a pretty good white sox team. I still have the papaer sitting in my drawer somewhere. If Cito could beat us with his style why the heck not embrace it.

I was thinking the same thing. Whenever I start to get concerned about Cito Gaston, I remember my first hand account of watching his '93 Blue Jays end another White Sox chance at a World Series on their way to their second title. You can't dispute that his Blue Jays were ready to play and he made champions out of them regardless of how much talent was on the team.

Cito has a lot of what I want in a Sox manager, a guy who comes in with a history of winning on his resume and commands instant respect in the clubhouse. Cito doesn't strike me as a "take the players out for ice cream" type of manger that Manuel was. He may be low key like JM but I don't expect him to put up with lazy play on the field. The fact that Cito doesn't tinker and will play the first half of the season as if it counts will do wonders for the '04 Sox.

moochpuppy
10-28-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
According to the Cubune: (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-031026soxmanagerialsearchgaston,1,2395262.story?co ll=cs-whitesox-promo)

"Since leaving the Blue Jays late in the 1997 season, Gaston was considered for managerial vacancies in Cleveland and Milwaukee. Anaheim reportedly wanted to hire him after the 2000 season, but Gaston turned down the team's interview request, citing family concerns.

Gaston also turned down subsequent chances to become Boston's hitting coach and Montreal's bench coach."

Sounds like to me he no longer wants to coach and if he has changed his tune do we really want a manager that has been out of the game for the past 6 years?

SoxOnTop
10-28-2003, 01:05 PM
Whether he's a shouter or low key, the only things I really care about are:

1. Does he hold his players accountable for their actions/decisions on the field.


2. Does he do what he says he's going to do?


3. Does he make solid in game decisions?


IMO, these were Manual's most glaring holes and as long as the new manager can do these things he will be major improvement. From what I hear about Cito, he fits these 3 criteria.

I agree with Dibber. You don't see Torre shouting and getting in his players faces and he does an outstanding job.

lowesox
10-28-2003, 02:45 PM
Isn't the fact that Cito and Manuel are so comparable enough to turn everybody off. I mean Manuel was so wrong for this team - we need somebody who is the complete opposite.

I don't care if its Ozzie - just please not Cito.

vegyrex
10-28-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Isn't the fact that Cito and Manuel are so comparable enough to turn everybody off.


Comparable?

Cito - 4 division title, 2 WS rings.

Manuel - 1 division title, zero WS rings

I don't see how they are alike.

Unregistered
10-29-2003, 12:00 AM
Why do I get the feeling that the "Ozzie as Manager" era will end in an abrupt midseason firing and a press conference from KW apologizing for Ozzie's behavior? :o:

bc2k
10-29-2003, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
Sounds like to me he no longer wants to coach and if he has changed his tune do we really want a manager that has been out of the game for the past 6 years?

I don't know if he has suddenly changed his tune and now desires to manage, unless we're talking about the Barbados Bombers.

I'm getting a very, 'take it or leave it' attitude from Cito. Cito's not in the same city, country, or continent as the team that's interviewing him.

jeremyb1
10-29-2003, 12:42 AM
The only argument in favor of Gaston is that he won 2 world series rings. How that alone is enough to make him a good manager, I can't understand. Are you guys arguing that under no circumstances could a team win the series without an excellent manager? Isn't it possible that a team could be incredibly talented and win in spite of its manager? Also, isn't it possible that Gaston is a good manager but a poor fit for this particular ball club?

lowesox
10-29-2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Also, isn't it possible that Gaston is a good manager but a poor fit for this particular ball club?

Actually no, that's impossible. I've spent a lot of time watching him and he is an awful manager. Although one good thing about Gaston as our managers would be all of the creative "Fire Cito" graphics coming out of WSI.

voodoochile
10-29-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
The only argument in favor of Gaston is that he won 2 world series rings. How that alone is enough to make him a good manager, I can't understand. Are you guys arguing that under no circumstances could a team win the series without an excellent manager? Isn't it possible that a team could be incredibly talented and win in spite of its manager? Also, isn't it possible that Gaston is a good manager but a poor fit for this particular ball club?

I don't know if he "fits the Sox", but I would find it hard to believe that a team could win back2back championships in ANY professional sport without a very solid manager at the helm.

It takes focus to do that and clearly Cito kept the Jays focused. Focus was one of the main problems under JM. Everyone did their own thing and the lineups and bullpens were a mess. Cito will help solve those problems...

SoxxoS
10-29-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
The only argument in favor of Gaston is that he won 2 world series rings. How that alone is enough to make him a good manager, I can't understand. Are you guys arguing that under no circumstances could a team win the series without an excellent manager? Isn't it possible that a team could be incredibly talented and win in spite of its manager? Also, isn't it possible that Gaston is a good manager but a poor fit for this particular ball club?

Because there is one one world champion in all of baseball. Ask Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, Dusty Baker and Felipe Alou how hard it is to win a championship.

The current Yankees (the past 3 years) and the Braves for the past about 10 years have all been HIGHLY talented, how many rings do they have between them?

vegyrex
10-29-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Are you guys arguing that under no circumstances could a team win the series without an excellent manager? Isn't it possible that a team could be incredibly talented and win in spite of its manager?

Are you suggesting Terry Bevington could have managed the '92, '93 Blue Jays to WS titles?

I hope not.

The_Floridian
10-29-2003, 12:27 PM
Gaston is the best choice. I'm glad some of the players like Ozzie. That's terrific. But look at Cito's record his first four years as skipper of the Blue Jays. 1st in the division, 2nd in the division, then two WS rings. That was with a squad of vets. When his team was thinned down intoa crop of rookies in 94, he started to falter.

So that means Gaston knows how to manage a veteran club and keep everyone in line and focused. Gaston inherited a talented ballclub in Toronto that had a lack of focus and turned them into champions. Doesn't that sound a little like our current Sox club?

I understand that everyone feels they need a guy like Ozzie to come in and rattle some cages. But Cito couldn't have turned that Blue Jays squad around without some kind of a powerful presence in the dugout.

Ozzie is a firebrand, but chewing out veterans who lack focus doesn't necessarily give them focus.

Cito has the perfect track record for the team that we currently have. If we had a team of rookies, I'd say Ozzie. But we don't. Picking the right manager also means picking the right guy for where you are at the moment.

At the moment, that man is Cito Gaston, not Ozzie Guillen.

Irishsox1
10-29-2003, 05:42 PM
I think Cito would be a great choice. Under Jerry Manual the Sox would get super hot then super cold and usually the cold lasted longer. They also would tense up in key series and tended to be poor at baseball fundimentals like bunting or baserunning. As for the tinkering, a lot of people on this website have a problem with it, but I believe that in 162 games it helps to get the bench involved. It always seems in the playoffs that some dude off the bench comes in and gets a key hit, great catch or perfect throw. I believe that Cito could take the Sox, get there confidence up, get the fundimentals straighted out and make a nice playoff run. As for Ozzie, I'm not taking him serious at this point in time and if he really wants to manage the White Sox in the future he should manage in the minor leagues. Being an assisstant coach/cheerleader is a lot different than being the head man.

steff
10-30-2003, 07:23 AM
I just don't see how it's beneficial to have a manager who's never managed before.. :?:


I know Ozzie is a nice guy.. but he hasn't even been an assistant to a manager. A 3rd base coach, in my mind, doesn't count.

I just don't have a good feeling about him managing anyone..

jeremyb1
10-31-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I don't know if he "fits the Sox", but I would find it hard to believe that a team could win back2back championships in ANY professional sport without a very solid manager at the helm.

It takes focus to do that and clearly Cito kept the Jays focused. Focus was one of the main problems under JM. Everyone did their own thing and the lineups and bullpens were a mess. Cito will help solve those problems...

I don't know, Manuel won 95 games in '00 and according to 90 percent of the posters here, he was a terrible manager. Even if you want to argue he was a better manager in '00, you have to at least allow for the possibility that manager's skills can deteriorate then since no one is claiming he was a good manager last season, just three seasons removed from 95 wins.

Also, I don't see why its impossible for a good team to win with a bad manager. Say a terrible manager causes a team to win 8 fewer games that it otherwise would, if a team good enough to win 108 games can exist, that theoretical team could win 100 games with a poor manager and play well in the playoffs, no?

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I don't know, Manuel won 95 games in '00 and according to 90 percent of the posters here, he was a terrible manager. Even if you want to argue he was a better manager in '00, you have to at least allow for the possibility that manager's skills can deteriorate then since no one is claiming he was a good manager last season, just three seasons removed from 95 wins.

Also, I don't see why its impossible for a good team to win with a bad manager. Say a terrible manager causes a team to win 8 fewer games that it otherwise would, if a team good enough to win 108 games can exist, that theoretical team could win 100 games with a poor manager and play well in the playoffs, no?

You presuppose that the only problem is in game management. JM clearly lost the team these past few seasons, IMO. That is a whole different matter.

It isn't all about in game management, it is about whether the team will follow you through the brick wall that is the season and then crash through the next 3 brick walls to win the championship. Gaston has proven he can accomplish that. JM never has...

jeremyb1
10-31-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You presuppose that the only problem is in game management. JM clearly lost the team these past few seasons, IMO. That is a whole different matter.

It isn't all about in game management, it is about whether the team will follow you through the brick wall that is the season and then crash through the next 3 brick walls to win the championship. Gaston has proven he can accomplish that. JM never has...

Not true, I was accounting for poor motivational skills. I still don't think a poorly managed, poorly motivated team with tremendous skill will lose a lot more than 8 games due to their manager. I know a lot of people like the believe the game is 95 percent mental and a 100 win club can become a 100 loss team without the proper approach but I think that's really extreme.

voodoochile
10-31-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Not true, I was accounting for poor motivational skills. I still don't think a poorly managed, poorly motivated team with tremendous skill will lose a lot more than 8 games due to their manager. I know a lot of people like the believe the game is 95 percent mental and a 100 win club can become a 100 loss team without the proper approach but I think that's really extreme.

I agree, that to some extent, you are correct. I don't think the swing is as extreme as your example, but, I think the swing can be larger than 8 games and just to be clear, 8 game swing puts the Sox in the playoffs this year...

john2499
10-31-2003, 03:02 PM
[i]
The World Series rings are nice, but he did do it with some good teams. Which is why he wants an experienced team. [/B]

Tell me of a Mgr. who won with a bad team.

jeremyb1
11-02-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I agree, that to some extent, you are correct. I don't think the swing is as extreme as your example, but, I think the swing can be larger than 8 games and just to be clear, 8 game swing puts the Sox in the playoffs this year...

I agree. My point was that an 8 game swing might not have kept the Jays from winning two series with the talent they had those seasons and that Cito could come here and cost us 8 games and the playoffs this upcomming season.