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SoxOnTop
10-27-2003, 01:29 PM
So now that Colon has gone money grubbing who is going to fill his hole in the rotation. I would expect KW to use a portion of the money he's saving on Colon for another top end starter. Although I think the Yank's would be crazy to let him go, do you think KW would make a run at Petitte.

Also, it seems to me that Flash is betting on crazy George to blow up the Yankees and offer him that $5 mil he's looking for. Does anyone else sense this? I wouldn't be surprised if several FA's take this approach? It could be that we have to wait and see who the Yankees sign before this all shakes out.

Dadawg_77
10-27-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop

Also, it seems to me that Flash is betting on crazy George to blow up the Yankees and offer him that $5 mil he's looking for. Does anyone else sense this? I wouldn't be surprised if several FA's take this approach? It could be that we have to wait and see who the Yankees sign before this all shakes out.

Exactly, that how this markey will play out. Everyone will be waiting to see what King George and Prince Cashman do. After they make their moves everything else will settle, but not before Yankees spend their money. Any agent would be a fool to tell a player to sign with a team when the Yankees could go after that palyer.

thepaulbowski
10-27-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Also, it seems to me that Flash is betting on crazy George to blow up the Yankees and offer him that $5 mil he's looking for. Does anyone else sense this? I wouldn't be surprised if several FA's take this approach? It could be that we have to wait and see who the Yankees sign before this all shakes out.

Flash, wants to be a closer, and the Yanks already have one of the best if Rivera. I don't see Flash going to the Yanks, because he has stated several times that he only wants to be somplace where he will be the closer.

poorme
10-27-2003, 01:32 PM
My plan B would be to try to put something together for the long haul rather than try to piece something together for one last run.

thepaulbowski
10-27-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Exactly, that how this markey will play out. Everyone will be waiting to see what King George and Prince Cashman do. After they make their moves everything else will settle, but not before Yankees spend their money. Any agent would be a fool to tell a player to sign with a team when the Yankees could go after that palyer.

Remember, Cashman may be casualty of George's rage. He has not said Cashman will be back.

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by poorme
My plan B would be to try to put something together for the long haul rather than try to piece something together for one last run.

How would you go about doing that? I am curious.

Dadawg_77
10-27-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Remember, Cashman may be casualty of George's rage. He has not said Cashman will be back.

True but I don't think George will do that. I think he will keep Torre and Cashman.

poorme
10-27-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How would you go about doing that? I am curious.

I would trade all the guys with one year left on their deals for prospects or very young guys. (Of course I'm assuming JR would never pay to sign our veterans to long term deals.)

I'd trade:
Loaiza
Ordonez
Lee

Give these guys a full year to see if they can play:
Borchard
Harris
Reed
Rowand

and pray I found a couple legit big leaguers among the rubble.

MisterB
10-27-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I would trade all the guys with one year left on their deals for prospects or very young guys. (Of course I'm assuming JR would never pay to sign our veterans to long term deals.)

I'd trade:
Loaiza
Ordonez
Lee

Give these guys a full year to see if they can play:
Borchard
Harris
Reed
Rowand

and pray I found a couple legit big leaguers among the rubble.

I believe that's what's known as rebuilding. Which means the Sox have almost zero chance to make the playoffs for at least 3 more years. Which also means drawing about 10k a game for the forseeable future, and the Cubs continuing to make the Sox ever more irrelavent in the city of Chicago. Wonderful.

soxtalker
10-27-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I would trade all the guys with one year left on their deals for prospects or very young guys. (Of course I'm assuming JR would never pay to sign our veterans to long term deals.)

I'd trade:
Loaiza
Ordonez
Lee

Give these guys a full year to see if they can play:
Borchard
Harris
Reed
Rowand

and pray I found a couple legit big leaguers among the rubble.

That would be similar to my approach also. However, I think that it is unlikely to happen for a number of reasons.

1) The Sox will feel some urgency due to the Cubs success.
2) KW is agressive and wants to win now; he's already stated that he wants to bring back veterans, I believe.
3) Youth and lower costs are the directions that the vast majority of teams will be wanting to go. That's particularly true after the success of the Marlins. However, a number of clubs have been talking about cutting payroll, and Fox says it doesn't intend to pay nearly as much for broadcast rights.

poorme
10-27-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
I believe that's what's known as rebuilding. Which means the Sox have almost zero chance to make the playoffs for at least 3 more years. Which also means drawing about 10k a game for the forseeable future, and the Cubs continuing to make the Sox ever more irrelavent in the city of Chicago. Wonderful.


I'd rather have a chance at the playoffs in 3 years than no chance anywhere on the horizon. That's what will happen if our FA's walk away for nothing (like what happened with Colon).

bc2k
10-27-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I'd rather have a chance at the playoffs in 3 years than no chance anywhere on the horizon. That's what will happen if our FA's walk away for nothing (like what happened with Colon).

And what if Cleveland, who's ahead in the rebuilding process, is reaching their peak at that time?

What if the Central has quality competition in 3 years?

Aggressively go for the World Series every year until you're overwhelmed with outrageous contracts and underachieving players. Then dump and rebuild.

MisterB
10-27-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I'd rather have a chance at the playoffs in 3 years than no chance anywhere on the horizon. That's what will happen if our FA's walk away for nothing (like what happened with Colon).

With that attitude, you should root for the "wait 'til next year!" Cubs. The fact is draft picks haven't been doing us a lot of good over the last decade or so. The only draft pick that's really panned out for the Sox recently is Buehrle (a 38th round draft-and-follow), and he wasn't expected to be that great to begin with. Excuse the rest of us for being sick of endless 'five year plans' that don't pan out.

poorme
10-27-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Aggressively go for the World Series every year until you're overwhelmed with outrageous contracts and underachieving players. Then dump and rebuild.

That seems to me where we are right now. This team wasn't close to a championship caliber team, and without Colon, forget it.

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I'd rather have a chance at the playoffs in 3 years than no chance anywhere on the horizon. That's what will happen if our FA's walk away for nothing (like what happened with Colon).

Why would the Sox get nothing? If they merely offer arbitration, they get draft picks at least.

I hate the idea of trading all of the FA's and potential FA's for prospects that may or may not pan out. In fact if history is a teacher, the odds are that MOST of them won't pan out.

Then the Sox will suck the next few years and fans won't show up so revenues will be down and when all these "prospects" are ready for arbitration, the team MIGHT make the playoffs and then have to pay them all money they don't have from sucking it up so poorly the past few years and we are back to where we are now.

Maggs, Lee, Buehrle, Garland, Crede, Olivo are all entering their prime years as baseball players. That means they have a solid core of prime age ball players to build around. You want to dump a good chunk of them and hope for the best. That makes NO sense to me at all.

What happens in 3 years when Buehrle and Garland both bolt for FA? What are you going to do for a pitching staff, hope the prospects work out?

This is a BAD idea. JR is that you? :D:

poorme
10-27-2003, 02:49 PM
At least I've put forth some kind of logical scenario. Mostly what I hear is:

sign colon
sign pettite
sign matsui
trade konerko for a solid starter
trade koch
hire joe torre
trade crede for nomar

I mean, some people need to get a grip on reality. I'd love for someone to pencil out how we can put together a championship team for $60 million. I've tried and failed, but if someone can actually THINK about it and come up with something REALISTIC, I could easily be convinced.

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by poorme
At least I've put forth some kind of logical scenario. Mostly what I hear is:

sign colon
sign pettite
sign matsui
trade konerko for a solid starter
trade koch
hire joe torre
trade crede for nomar

I mean, some people need to get a grip on reality. I'd love for someone to pencil out how we can put together a championship team for $60 million. I've tried and failed, but if someone can actually THINK about it and come up with something REALISTIC, I could easily be convinced.

Your plan maybe logical, but it ignores the economic impact and presupposes that you can get equal value for the players you trade.

Sure, some people are expecting the world for average or below average players in trade, but that doesn't mean they are correct either.

Sign Colon
Sign another starter
Pick up the option on Loaiza
sign Lee to a 3 year deal
Trade Konerko for whatever you can get (Koch too if you can, otherwise, hope he can be more effective next year)
Sign the two middle infielders to inexpensive 2-3 year deals
Find SOMEONE who can both field the CF position and hit the baseball a little bit
Put Frank back at 1B and find a competent inexpensive DH/1B who can split some time with him

Presto, ALC competitors (at least) for those 3 years you want to blow off...

daveeym
10-27-2003, 03:19 PM
i will be
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: if the sox rebuild

Let's get the sox running like a world class business and not like a government.

poorme
10-27-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Presto, ALC competitors (at least) for those 3 years you want to blow off...

Well, your plan is only about $16 million over budget. Here's a rough budget outline. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.

colon 12
buehrle 1
garland 0.5
wright 0.5
schoenweiss1.5
koch 6.4
"other starter"6
lee 6
CF 2
ordonez 14
crede 0.4
valentine 3
alomar 3
thomas 6
konerko 8
olivo 0.4
graffinino 2
7 "others"3.5
TOTAL 76.2

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Well, your plan is only about $16 million over budget. Here's a rough budget outline. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.

colon 12
buehrle 1
garland 0.5
wright 0.5
schoenweiss1.5
koch 6.4
"other starter"6
lee 6
CF 2
ordonez 14
crede 0.4
valentine 3
alomar 3
thomas 6
konerko 8
olivo 0.4
graffinino 2
7 "others"3.5
TOTAL 76.2

I would switch the numbers for Buehrle and "other starter" in your scenario and Garland will get more than that, IMO.

This is why I suggest trading Paulie and Koch for whatever you can get for them.

poorme
10-27-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

This is why I suggest trading Paulie and Koch for whatever you can get for them.

You can suggest all you want, but it's not going to happen.

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by poorme
You can suggest all you want, but it's not going to happen.

Time will tell. It wouldn't be the first overpaid player to actually get traded. Maybe they can get an "overpaid pitcher" in return and kill two birds with one stone...

joecrede
10-27-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
I believe that's what's known as rebuilding. Which means the Sox have almost zero chance to make the playoffs for at least 3 more years. Which also means drawing about 10k a game for the forseeable future, and the Cubs continuing to make the Sox ever more irrelavent in the city of Chicago. Wonderful.

The Twins? Fact is the Sox can rebuild AND win the division at the same time.

Dub25
10-27-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by poorme
At least I've put forth some kind of logical scenario. Mostly what I hear is:

sign colon
sign pettite
sign matsui
trade konerko for a solid starter
trade koch
hire joe torre
trade crede for nomar

I mean, some people need to get a grip on reality. I'd love for someone to pencil out how we can put together a championship team for $60 million. I've tried and failed, but if someone can actually THINK about it and come up with something REALISTIC, I could easily be convinced.

Last year the Angels were barely over 60 million. The Marlins this year were 48 million. It is possible to win with that kind of payroll. Forget about rebuilding or trading future free agents for prospects. WIN NOW. I'am also tired of 5 year plans that don't work.

poorme
10-27-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
Last year the Angels were barely over 60 million. The Marlins this year were 48 million. It is possible to win with that kind of payroll. Forget about rebuilding or trading future free agents for prospects. WIN NOW. I'am also tired of 5 year plans that don't work.

Ok. Pencil it out. Show me the players and the numbers. We had our chances over the last 3 years and blew them.

MisterB
10-27-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The Twins? Fact is the Sox can rebuild AND win the division at the same time.

Correction: A competent organization with a lot of luck can rebuild and and win the division, and the Sox lose out on both counts. The fact is we don't have much in the way of prospects that can really help us over the next two years. Borchard has the highest ceiling in the organization but has an aversion to making contact, Reed has only a half a season of AA under his belt and who knows if his production will translate to the majors, Rauch seems to have fallen off the map as a prospect, Harris has shown little aptitude for hitting major league pitching, Rowand plays just well enough to keep feeding those who insist he'll get better with more playing time. Right now the Sox organization is pretty barren above 'A' ball. Unless KW can get some absolute steals in dealing Loaiza, Ordonez, etc.

joecrede
10-27-2003, 04:24 PM
Who is going to run away with that division next year?

If Colon and Ordonez go, the very least we get is $50M over three years and two high draft picks next year.

If you get Soriano for Ordonez and use a portion of the money saved to sign Everett for left. I think they'd be in good shape.

GoSox2K3
10-27-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I would trade all the guys with one year left on their deals for prospects or very young guys. (Of course I'm assuming JR would never pay to sign our veterans to long term deals.)

I'd trade:
Loaiza
Ordonez
Lee

Give these guys a full year to see if they can play:
Borchard
Harris
Reed
Rowand

and pray I found a couple legit big leaguers among the rubble.

I think it would be a PR disaster for the Sox to scrap their current team now and start another rebuilding program. The Cubs would bury us even more if they make another run for a pennant next year while the Sox (after finishing only 2 games worse than the Cubs) go back to square one for the umpteenth time.

I think the Sox have no choice but to try to win now. They need to count on a decent run for the playoffs in '04 coupled with some positive glow/fan interest from the stadium renovations to give us a decent boost in attendance to help get us out of the small market box that JR has painted us into.

Sox rebuilding efforts have been failures in recent years. We were supposedly stocking up our farm system by trading players for prospects. Yet, we have nothing to show for it.

:reinsy
Why would I want to increase attendance? That would mean I'd have to pay rent!

LuvSox
10-27-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by poorme
At least I've put forth some kind of logical scenario. Mostly what I hear is:

sign colon
sign pettite
sign matsui
trade konerko for a solid starter
trade koch
hire joe torre
trade crede for nomar

I mean, some people need to get a grip on reality. I'd love for someone to pencil out how we can put together a championship team for $60 million. I've tried and failed, but if someone can actually THINK about it and come up with something REALISTIC, I could easily be convinced.

Take a laxative already. This is like playing fantasy baseball. Nobody knows what is going to happen. Some of these guys on here have very wishful thinking. Relax.

Randar68
10-27-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Your plan maybe logical, but it ignores the economic impact and presupposes that you can get equal value for the players you trade.

Sure, some people are expecting the world for average or below average players in trade, but that doesn't mean they are correct either.

Sign Colon
Sign another starter
Pick up the option on Loaiza
sign Lee to a 3 year deal
Trade Konerko for whatever you can get (Koch too if you can, otherwise, hope he can be more effective next year)
Sign the two middle infielders to inexpensive 2-3 year deals
Find SOMEONE who can both field the CF position and hit the baseball a little bit
Put Frank back at 1B and find a competent inexpensive DH/1B who can split some time with him

Presto, ALC competitors (at least) for those 3 years you want to blow off...


DING DING! Add in re-signing Flash or finding a legit closer somewhere else...

spataro51
10-27-2003, 05:46 PM
I think everyone can forget about all this talk about rebuilding and waiting 3-5 years to compete. Kw is not like that. He wants to win NOW! I have all the faith in the world that kenny will come up with something that will keep us in contention. I still think Colon will be here next year, the problem i see with him rejecting the deal is ...well Would you want most of your 36 mil deffered over so many years? I sure in hell wouldn't I want my money right now, not 15 years down the road. If colon doesn;t sign KW will come up with something, he always has made an effort to keep us there.

soxfan26
10-27-2003, 06:22 PM
To me it seems that the real question we should be worried about is what can we do with the money we will not spend on Colon, Gordon, and Thomas. Assuming they all go, and it would break my heart to see them go.

That leaves us with $21m for next year:

Thomas $8m
Colon $12-13.3
Gordon $3

There is enough talent out there on the FA market to weather the storm.

#1) Stop freaking out
#2) Abandon your Yankee paranoia
#3) Remember it's October

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
DING DING! Add in re-signing Flash or finding a legit closer somewhere else...

I'd like that, but if not, they can let Marte close and find another cheap setup man, IMO. Not sure they can trade Koch and if they can't, they are going to have to cut salary somewhere and rumors are Flash want's $5M. Not gonna' happen.

Personally, I want Flash back. I thought he was light's out after becoming the closer. He also showed signs of being a classic closer who can shut teams down even when he inherits runners.

Hope they can get him back, but I am skeptical...

gosox41
10-27-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
So now that Colon has gone money grubbing who is going to fill his hole in the rotation. I would expect KW to use a portion of the money he's saving on Colon for another top end starter. Although I think the Yank's would be crazy to let him go, do you think KW would make a run at Petitte.

Also, it seems to me that Flash is betting on crazy George to blow up the Yankees and offer him that $5 mil he's looking for. Does anyone else sense this? I wouldn't be surprised if several FA's take this approach? It could be that we have to wait and see who the Yankees sign before this all shakes out.

Did you really think Colon wasn't going to test the FA market? He's earned his big payday, it's time to cash in. He'd be stupid not to listen to offers.

Bob

hold2dibber
10-27-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Your plan maybe logical, but it ignores the economic impact and presupposes that you can get equal value for the players you trade.

Sure, some people are expecting the world for average or below average players in trade, but that doesn't mean they are correct either.

Sign Colon
Sign another starter
Pick up the option on Loaiza
sign Lee to a 3 year deal
Trade Konerko for whatever you can get (Koch too if you can, otherwise, hope he can be more effective next year)
Sign the two middle infielders to inexpensive 2-3 year deals
Find SOMEONE who can both field the CF position and hit the baseball a little bit
Put Frank back at 1B and find a competent inexpensive DH/1B who can split some time with him

Presto, ALC competitors (at least) for those 3 years you want to blow off...

That payroll is well over $70 million. Probably $80 million. Nice to think about, but a pipedream.

MRKARNO
10-27-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
That payroll is well over $70 million. Probably $80 million. Nice to think about, but a pipedream.

Without konerko or koch it's probably only about 60 mil. Within the sox' range