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Clarkdog
10-27-2003, 11:01 AM
Heard this on air this morning. It is being discussed on the Sox MLB message board right now.

One of the posters completed the deal as Soriano and pitching prospect to Sox for Ordonez.

Plan B, anyone?

FarmerAndy
10-27-2003, 11:10 AM
Just what we need! A leadoff guy who swings for the fences, not to mention the fact that he's an absolute butcher at 2B.

Brian26
10-27-2003, 11:11 AM
I'm starting to get a sick feeling in my stomach right now.

I would love to see Soriano in Sox pinstripes, but not at the expense of Ordonez. I understand you have to trade something to get something, but I don't think the deal is fair.

CHISOXFAN13
10-27-2003, 11:22 AM
If this deal happens, I don't think Soriano plays second anyway. He'd go back to shirtstop where he belongs.

Does anyone know his contract status and salary???

A.T. Money
10-27-2003, 11:26 AM
Who here honestly thinks the Yankees would send us a pitching prospect AND Soriano for Maggs?

FarmerAndy
10-27-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
If this deal happens, I don't think Soriano plays second anyway. He'd go back to shirtstop where he belongs.



That's nuts. You're gonna move a guy who can't even handle 2B to an even more important defensive position?

Paulwny
10-27-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
Who here honestly thinks the Yankees would send us a pitching prospect AND Soriano for Maggs?

I very seriously doubt any teams are discussing trades at this time.

The only reason this trade could come about later is because Torre is a big Maggs fan. NY is very thin in pitching prospects.

CHISOXFAN13
10-27-2003, 11:32 AM
How is it nuts? He's not a second baseman.

You act like the guy who's been patrolling the shortstop position for us for 3 of the last 5 years is a Gold Glove winner.

I don't think he's a good infielder, all I said was he probably wouldn't play second. Hell, centerfield may be a better option for him.

And AT is right. This rumor is a joke anyway. It makes absolutely no sense.

Lip Man 1
10-27-2003, 11:34 AM
The deal makes some sense. Soriano is cheap, the Sox unload a big contract and can use that money to reinvest in pitching (as Williams said in the press conference) since Bartolo is now bye-bye. The Yanks solve their right field "black hole" and get another incredibly talented player. (Remember my post about the fact that you're now dealing with an embarassed, humiliated George Steinbrenner?)

Unless of course Uncle Jerry takes the saved money and sticks in right in his big fat wallet. (which is always a possibility isn't it kids?)

Lip

Hangar18
10-27-2003, 11:36 AM
That trade better not happen. I want a BoatLoad of
Prospects and Players for Maggs .............Magglio should
end his Career here

poorme
10-27-2003, 11:38 AM
I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. Soriano would be with us for another 3 years and he's save us some serious $$.

Hangar18
10-27-2003, 11:40 AM
If this trade, as silly as it sounds does go down ..............
WHY is it that Every Time the SOX make a "deal" with the Yankees, its us Giving away a Star Player and getting pretty much nothing in return? Its like the Yankees regard the SOX as their Farm Team whenever they need good players to stock their team with ...........

inta
10-27-2003, 11:41 AM
jesus christ. do the yankees have ANY prospects?
maggs is the guts of our offense. soriano could easily have a bad 2004 and leave another bad taste in our mouth while maggs becomes a media sensation in NY.

soxtalker
10-27-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
If this trade, as silly as it sounds does go down ..............
WHY is it that Every Time the SOX make a "deal" with the Yankees, its us Giving away a Star Player and getting pretty much nothing in return? Its like the Yankees regard the SOX as their Farm Team whenever they need good players to stock their team with ...........

How about a few examples ....

Hangar18
10-27-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by poorme
I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. Soriano would be with us for another 3 years and he's save us some serious $$.


One problem with this. Soriano Sucks. I dont know what happened to the guy, but hes no good. Methinks the guy is a Headcase, and is immensely talented, but DUMB as a box of rocks. Those kinds of Players are NOT what you build your team around. WE just got rid of a guy like that.....Does
DAngelo Jimenez ring a bell? And Ironic that he was once a YANKEE castoff too isnt it? Heres the Rule OF Thumb. If the Yankees are Getting Rid of the Guy, You Shouldnt Pursue him.

A.T. Money
10-27-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
One problem with this. Soriano Sucks. I dont know what happened to the guy, but hes no good. Methinks the guy is a Headcase, and is immensely talented, but DUMB as a box of rocks. Those kinds of Players are NOT what you build your team around. WE just got rid of a guy like that.....Does
DAngelo Jimenez ring a bell? And Ironic that he was once a YANKEE castoff too isnt it? Heres the Rule OF Thumb. If the Yankees are Getting Rid of the Guy, You Shouldnt Pursue him.

Did Duh'Angelo hit nearly 80 homers in 2 years? Methinks not.

It's kinda hard to not like an All-Star like Soriano.

Hangar18
10-27-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
How about a few examples ....

Wasnt Bucky Dent for Oscar "flash in the pan" Gamble
an example of this?
Or Jack McDowell for Lyle Mouton? Sure, Mouton was ok for a couple years, but he was Out as fast as Chia-Pets

poorme
10-27-2003, 11:48 AM
Win Shares:

Soriano 27
Ordonez 23

Hangar18
10-27-2003, 11:48 AM
I guess what Im Really Getting at here, is that every White Sox/Yankees "Trade" has Salary Ramifications as the motive
behind it, and the SOX are always the ones with the Hat
in their Hands (Mariotti will use this one in the future)

AsInWreck
10-27-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Wasnt Bucky Dent for Oscar "flash in the pan" Gamble
an example of this?
Or

Not the great Bucky Dent! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Huisj
10-27-2003, 11:54 AM
Soriano has awful plate discipline. When he had his incredible monster year two years ago, the stat people like rob neyer researched it a bunch and said that it had basically never happened before that someone had kept up that sort of level of production over a reasonable amount of time while having the awful plate discipline that soriano has. and gee, look what happened, he tanked in the second half this year. people who swing at everything all the time aren't gonna last long like that. did he even have a hit in the playoffs?

Nick@Nite
10-27-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
Heard this on air this morning. It is being discussed on the Sox MLB message board right now.

One of the posters completed the deal as Soriano and pitching prospect to Sox for Ordonez.

If this trade happens, I'll bite my nose.

bc2k
10-27-2003, 11:58 AM
This trade sounds completely fictional. It fits teams too perfectly like some boner fan thought it up and claimed it as fact. If true, I would definately like it depending on us getting the All-Star Soriano, not 2003 playoff Soriano.

Paulwny
10-27-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
Did Duh'Angelo hit nearly 80 homers in 2 years? Methinks not.

It's kinda hard to not like an All-Star like Soriano.

I'm sure many AL pitchers have seen Soriano become a sucker for the outside fastball and breaking pitch over the last few weeks. He'll have to adjust, no guarantees on his future numbers.

poorme
10-27-2003, 12:03 PM
It would be nice if people checked out the facts before spouting off inaccuracies. Soriano's OPS actually increased in the second half of the year.

People have been waiting for 3 years for soriano to fall apart. He had a horrible world series, but I'm sure he'll have 35-40 homers and stolen bases again next year.

SoxOnTop
10-27-2003, 12:04 PM
Why would we trade a guarenteed .300 30 120 man for a 2nd year 2nd baseman who tanked in the second half of his second year. And what prospects could the Yankees possibly have that would make up this great divide?

Whoever made up this rumor is a moron. On the otherhand, if it is true and KW pulls the trigger, then he is a moron.

MarkEdward
10-27-2003, 12:07 PM
Soriano is an interesting player. Right now, he looks like a young Sammy Sosa. The younger Sosa and today's Soriano both had very good power with little plate discipline. Sosa developed discipline and is a near lock to make the Hall of Fame. If Soriano can't develop discipline, then he could have a very short career.

Nevertheless, I doubt the Yankees will be giving up on Soriano so quickly.

SoxxoS
10-27-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Why would we trade a guarenteed .300 30 120 man for a 2nd year 2nd baseman who tanked in the second half of his second year


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

For what its worth, Soriano is one of the few people (only) that can be a 40-40 man.

xil357
10-27-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Nevertheless, I doubt the Yankees will be giving up on Soriano so quickly.

Unless they plan to make a run at Kaz Matsui and want to move Jeter to 2B?

MisterB
10-27-2003, 12:10 PM
Cool! Now all we have to do is sign Jose Hernandez and call up Borchard and we can lead the league in strikeouts for years to come!

That deal doesn't excite me. Soriano is an upscale version of Jose Valentin: strikes out a lot, doesn't walk, can hit homers and steal bases and is a poor defender. He really hasn't progressed in his 3 years in the majors and has shown no interest in changing his game or improving it. And considering we have no replacement for Ordonez (Borchard I suppose, but even discounting his injuries this season I don't think he'd make an immediate impact at the major league level) we'd have to pray that KW can seriously fill the the Sox' many holes with the cash we save.

Dadawg_77
10-27-2003, 12:10 PM
Could the Sox get Soriano, put him in RF or CF and bat him second or seventh and resign Robby to play 2B and bat leadoff?

SoxxoS
10-27-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
And considering we have no replacement for Ordonez (Borchard I suppose, but even discounting his injuries this season I don't think he'd make an immediate impact at the major league level) we'd have to pray that KW can seriously fill the the Sox' many holes with the cash we save.

Jeremy Reed is a more probable replacement for Maggs than Borchard. Both will probably get an even shot in spring training, but going by this year, you got to like Reed's chances. I hope I am wrong, though.

Mammoo
10-27-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I very seriously doubt any teams are discussing trades at this time.

I could not agree more...what a ridiculous rumor :?:

thepaulbowski
10-27-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
If this trade, as silly as it sounds does go down ..............
WHY is it that Every Time the SOX make a "deal" with the Yankees, its us Giving away a Star Player and getting pretty much nothing in return? Its like the Yankees regard the SOX as their Farm Team whenever they need good players to stock their team with ...........


Yeah, The Yankees didn't help us get Bartolo.

MarkEdward
10-27-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by xil357
Unless they plan to make a run at Kaz Matsui and want to move Jeter to 2B?

If Jeter is going to move anywhere, I'd assume it would be center field.

hold2dibber
10-27-2003, 12:37 PM
Although I doubt this rumor because of its timing, I do think it would make some sense. The Sox absolutely, positively will have to move some salary this off season - be it Lee, Maggs, Frank, and/or Loaiza, at least a few will have to go if the Sox keep true to their promise of holding payroll under $60 million. And Maggs is (by far) the biggest salary on the team. I would hate to see him go. But if they trade him, they could do a hell of a lot worse than Soriano. If it means that the Sox can keep Lee and sign a quality starter, it's a no brainer. Put it this way, which would you rather have:

Ordonez

OR

Lee
Soriano
Quality Starter

That's what it may come down to. Soriano made $800,000 this year. He is not yet arbitration eligible. So even if the Sox were to pay him $1 mm in '04, they'd be saving $13 million over what is due to Maggs. That $13 million would be plenty to pay Lee and a good starting pitcher.

And though Soriano is not perfect, he's averaged 39 HRs, 95 RBIs, 44 2Bs and 35 SBs over the past two years. He's only 25 years old. .879 and .863 OPS the last 2 years. And please stop saying he sucked in the 2nd half of '03. His OPS was .871 post All Star break and .856 pre-All Star break. His OPS was over 1.000 in September.

dickallen15
10-27-2003, 12:44 PM
You could expect his power numbers to rise if he played half his games at US Cellular Field, as opposed to the graveyard for right handed power hitters, Yankee Stadium. If you have to move Magglio, getting Soriano for him isn't a bad thing.

moochpuppy
10-27-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
Just what we need! A leadoff guy who swings for the fences, not to mention the fact that he's an absolute butcher at 2B.

We got Ray Durham back?!?

Rocky Soprano
10-27-2003, 01:15 PM
Soriano is a good player but I dont want him if its going to cost us Maggs.

Please dont let this be true!

MisterB
10-27-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
We got Ray Durham back?!?

Funny, but Giants fans seem quite happy with Durham. Then again Sox fans are the living proof of the saying "Familiarity breeds contempt".

RKMeibalane
10-27-2003, 01:50 PM
Is there any way the Sox can convince New York to take Konerko instead?

jortafan
10-27-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Is there any way the Sox can convince New York to take Konerko instead?

Sure. If the Sox are willing to accept Jeff Weaver instead.

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by jortafan
Sure. If the Sox are willing to accept Jeff Weaver instead.


I'd do that and take a flyer on Weaver. Stick him in the 5th slot and see how he does.

maurice
10-27-2003, 03:28 PM
Soriano is not a perfect player by any stretch, but I'd do this trade in a minute.

Soriano is 25 years old and made under $1 mil this year. He's good for a .290 AVE, and around 40 HR and 40 SBs. His 2003 performance was consistent with his 2002 performance, so he's not likely to fall off the map, but rather likely to improve. On the downside, he rarely walks, strikes out a ton, and is a bad defensive 2B.

Ordonez is 29 years old and makes $14 mil next year, his walk year. He's good for a .310 AVE, and around 30 HR and 10 SBs. He's been pretty consistent the last four years, but it looks like 2002 may have been his career year. He walks more and strikes out less than Soriano, but isn't a 100+ BB guy. He's an adequate defensive corner OF, which is damning him with faint praise.

Maggs has been somewhat more productive than Soriano, but Soriano is four years younger, exponentially cheaper, and has more upside, particularly is he becomes a defensively adequate 2B.

As for Weaver, IIRC, he has a ridiculous contract with many years left on it.

Unregistered
10-27-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I'd do that and take a flyer on Weaver. Stick him in the 5th slot and see how he does. I wouldn't worry about that. Lucky for us, the Sox want Scott Schoenweis to be our 5th starter. :(:

Foulke You
10-27-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
I wouldn't worry about that. Lucky for us, the Sox want Scott Schoenweis to be our 5th starter. :(:

I think Scott Schoenweis will be a breath of fresh air in the #5 spot. I think we can get at least 10 wins out of him next year which is way more than we would get out of the AAA quintet of Wright/Porzio/Cotts/Rauch/Stewart. I'll take my chances with the lefty Schoenweis over Weaver or the AAA Charlotte misfits any day.

Champs2004
10-27-2003, 05:40 PM
I wouldn't trade Maggs for ANY reason unless it was for Vladimir Guerrero. that's about it. Soriano is a liability plain and simple. for Reinsdorf, he needs to stop thinking that he doesn't need that much money to be successful to win a world series. He needs to figure it out that the '02 Angels and this year's Marlins are exceptions. He has the money needed to resign the players but i do have a good idea to help out Uncle Jerry.

1. Sign Bartolo, the Alomars and Carl Everett
2. Trade Everett and Konerko to the Yankees for Hideki Matsui and Nick Johnson
3. Sign Kazuo Matsui
4. Trade Jose Valentin to the Marlins for A.J. Burnett

My Projected Lineup
1. 2B Roberto Alomar
2. LF Carlos Lee
3. DH Frank Thomas
4. RF Magglio Ordonez
5. CF Hideki Matsui
6. SS Kazuo Matsui
7. 1B Nick Johnson
8. 3B Joe Crede
9. C Miguel Olivo

Rotation
Bartolo Colon
Mark Buehrle
Esteban Loaiza
Jon Garland
A.J. Burnett

gosox41
10-27-2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
Just what we need! A leadoff guy who swings for the fences, not to mention the fact that he's an absolute butcher at 2B.

Can Soriano play CF? Also, any word on the pitching prospect?

Assuming the Sox can use Mags money to get a # 1 starter, it isn't that bad of a deal in the scheme of things. It's not great. And doing the trade the way it is without allocating the money elsewhere is just plain stupid.

Bob

gosox41
10-27-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Funny, but Giants fans seem quite happy with Durham. Then again Sox fans are the living proof of the saying "Familiarity breeds contempt".

I loved Ray when he was here. So he wasn't great going to his right, big deal. He was the second most prtoductive offensive 2B in the AL and better then any lead off hitter the Sox have right now.

Need I mention the Sox could have resigned Durham for $2 mill. per year less then Konerko and come out way ahead.

Oh yeah, I forgot PK has leadership ability Looks great nest to his .230 avg and 29 GIDP's.

Bob

MRKARNO
10-27-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Champs2004
I wouldn't trade Maggs for ANY reason unless it was for Vladimir Guerrero. that's about it. Soriano is a liability plain and simple. for Reinsdorf, he needs to stop thinking that he doesn't need that much money to be successful to win a world series. He needs to figure it out that the '02 Angels and this year's Marlins are exceptions. He has the money needed to resign the players but i do have a good idea to help out Uncle Jerry.

1. Sign Bartolo, the Alomars and Carl Everett
2. Trade Everett and Konerko to the Yankees for Hideki Matsui and Nick Johnson
3. Sign Kazuo Matsui
4. Trade Jose Valentin to the Marlins for A.J. Burnett


1. A total of 25 million per year
2. They'd never do that
3. After signing colon, alomar and taking on matsui's contract?
4. Why would the marlins give up their no. 2 guy for a washed up SS?

gosox41
10-27-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I think Scott Schoenweis will be a breath of fresh air in the #5 spot. I think we can get at least 10 wins out of him next year which is way more than we would get out of the AAA quintet of Wright/Porzio/Cotts/Rauch/Stewart. I'll take my chances with the lefty Schoenweis over Weaver or the AAA Charlotte misfits any day.

If the Sox average 7 runs a game for Schoenweis he may get 10 wins. Righties hit .325 off him last season. Enough said.

Bob

JRIG
10-27-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I think Scott Schoenweis will be a breath of fresh air in the #5 spot. I think we can get at least 10 wins out of him next year which is way more than we would get out of the AAA quintet of Wright/Porzio/Cotts/Rauch/Stewart. I'll take my chances with the lefty Schoenweis over Weaver or the AAA Charlotte misfits any day.

I really can't understand anyone being excited about Schoenweis in the rotation next year. In his years as a starter he has posted ERAs of 5.45, 5.08 and 5.34 before he was removed from the rotation midway through the 2002 season. In those same years he has WHIPs of 1.49, 1.42, and 1.53.

Anything inspiring there? Of course not. The ONLY place he's had any kind of success is out of the pen. If Schoenweis is one of our top 5 guys, we're in trouble.

MRKARNO
10-27-2003, 06:55 PM
Just think about it:

Soriano and 12 mil for signing other players or maggs in a walk year?

guillen4life13
10-27-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Champs2004
5. CF Hideki Matsui

Nope.

RichH55
10-27-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I think Scott Schoenweis will be a breath of fresh air in the #5 spot. I think we can get at least 10 wins out of him next year which is way more than we would get out of the AAA quintet of Wright/Porzio/Cotts/Rauch/Stewart. I'll take my chances with the lefty Schoenweis over Weaver or the AAA Charlotte misfits any day.


I want to live by you Pollyanna....Schoenweiss has never been good as a SP....well perhaps in Little League, but even that is a hunch

batmanZoSo
10-27-2003, 07:59 PM
champs2004,

This isn't a video game where you can turn off the "CPU Reject Trades" option.

That's the most preposterous thing I've ever seen. Konerko is terrible and a mega millionaire, almost untradable as is, let alone in this deal. Everett is good but is worth neither of Johnson or Matsui straight up.

The Marlins need Jose Valentin why? Because they're just in the mood for giving up future superstar pitchers? Or is it because they already have a young shortstop with unlimited potential?

Kaz Matsui is way out of our price range and I doubt he would play in the midwest anyway. He'll be a Dodger soon most likely.

Nick Johnson is not that good at all and frankly I'm sick of hearing about him. He is not coming here. Ever.

guillen4life13
10-27-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Nick Johnson is not that good at all and frankly I'm sick of hearing about him. He is not coming here. Ever.

Until he's old and washed up. :D:

JRIG
10-27-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo

Nick Johnson is not that good at all and frankly I'm sick of hearing about him. He is not coming here. Ever.

Nick Johnson put up a higher OPS this year than Paul Konerko ever has. His OBP was .422.

But you're right. He's no Aaron Rowand.

Thunderstruck30
10-27-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by gosox41


Can Soriano play CF?



Ive heard that Sorianos main position is centerfield.

duke of dorwood
10-27-2003, 08:35 PM
WE dont need ANOTHER right handed hitter

crector
10-27-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Soriano is an interesting player. Right now, he looks like a young Sammy Sosa. The younger Sosa and today's Soriano both had very good power with little plate discipline. Sosa developed discipline and is a near lock to make the Hall of Fame. If Soriano can't develop discipline, then he could have a very short career.

Nevertheless, I doubt the Yankees will be giving up on Soriano so quickly.


Since when has Sammy the Cork ever "developed discipline"? He's still the king of strikeouts. Soriano's a lot better than Sammy SoSo was at this point in their respective careers.

MarkEdward
10-27-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by crector
Since when has Sammy the Cork ever "developed discipline"? He's still the king of strikeouts. Soriano's a lot better than Sammy SoSo was at this point in their respective careers.

Sosa has definitely developed discipline throughout his career. In 1997, Sosa had 694 plate appearances. He walked only 45 times. In 2001, he had 711 plate appearances. He walked 116 times. Although he dropped to 63 BBs this years, I would still call that a significant development in discipline. Aside from this, his number of pitches seen per plate appearance has also been steadily increasing since his earlier years.

I don't really mind if a player strikes out a lot. I'd take a player who walks 150 times and strikes out 150 times over a player who walks 10 times and strikes out 10 times.

xil357
10-27-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Put it this way, which would you rather have:

Ordonez OR

Lee
Soriano
Quality Starter


Much as I love Maggs, his production can be replaced, he plays a corner OF position and he makes too much cash for this team to be successful given their self-imposed payroll constraints.

I do this deal in a heartbeat. In addition to giving the Sox the ability to sign a replacement for Colon, it opens up right field for Reed and/or Borchard.

Now I am as much a fan or re-loading over re-building as anyone else here. But part of re-loading is also promoting players from within to fill holes. If an organization cannot develop talent from within, they end up on a cycle of signing more and more expensive free agents. They need to find out if Reed and/or Borchard can deliver as promised. If both of them fail miserably but the Sox remain within 5 games of the division lead at the All Star Break, they can make another move for a bat to play RF.

Adding Soriano almost replaces the offense lost by the departure of Maggs. Given his speed, Soriano can hit at the top of the order as well.

Meanwhile, if such a trade as proposed allows the Sox to keep Thomas, they can try to deal Konerko for Weaver, as has been suggested, in trading bad contract for bad contract (I doubt the Yanks would do that, though), or try to pawn PK off elsewhere.

The money saved by not paying Maggs also might allow the Sox to pick up a Raul Ibanez or Mike Cameron to play CF. Alternatively or in addition, they could sign Robin Ventura to DH and spell Frank at 1B, and tutor Crede.

While a Maggs-Soriano trade is probably not going to happen, it could be a good move for the Sox given their self-imposed payroll restrictions.

JDP
10-27-2003, 10:49 PM
Forego the "SP prospect", which, by Yankee farm definition, really doesn't exist. I'll stick to my original prospect package from the Yankees along w/ Soriano:

Sox get:
Soriano
Navarro (catching prospect, AA-level)
Arias (MIF prospect, A-level)

Yankees get:
Maggs

Soriano will be had cheaply for 2-3 years and then he'll still have a year of RFA. Maggs has still not gotten to Soriano's power numbers, much less stolen base totals. If you can overlook the fact that Soriano will strike out 150+, it's not that bad a deal --just don't have Soriano lead off -- put him in one of the 3-4-5 holes.

Get something for Maggs while it's possible -- and use that $14 on solid SP.

Go BC Yankees!

MRKARNO
10-27-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by JDP
Forego the "SP prospect", which, by Yankee farm definition, really doesn't exist. I'll stick to my original prospect package from the Yankees along w/ Soriano:

Sox get:
Soriano
Navarro (catching prospect, AA-level)
Arias (MIF prospect, A-level)

Yankees get:
Maggs

Soriano will be had cheaply for 2-3 years and then he'll still have a year of RFA. Maggs has still not gotten to Soriano's power numbers, much less stolen base totals. If you can overlook the fact that Soriano will strike out 150+, it's not that bad a deal --just don't have Soriano lead off -- put him in one of the 3-4-5 holes.

Get something for Maggs while it's possible -- and use that $14 on solid SP.

Go BC Yankees!

I REALLY like this trade. Soriano has proven that he is already one of the better hitters in baseball. We'd have soriano for a number of years. Maggs, we'd have only one more year at 14 mil and maybe we'd lose him anyways.

Will soriano K? Yes. But with the extra 12 million, KW could work wonders.
Is soraino's production equal to maggs'? No, but it can be replaced with a more balanced lineup. We could stick soriano at CF, and get Castillo at second instead of alomar. Aurelia at short and have either Reed or a 2-4 million RF (and with the market being low as it is, you could get a quality RF for cheap, maybe Jose Guillen after the bad 2nd half with the A's). After that awful world series, Castillo's value has gone done a lot. The yanks and Boston are reportedly not as interested as they were before and the bosox in actuality dont have as much money this year.

Castillo
Soriano
Thomas
Lee
Konerko
Guillen
Crede
Aurelia
Alomar/Olivo

Not too shabby IMHO

batmanZoSo
10-27-2003, 11:19 PM
JRIG,

Yeah, Mr. 14 homers and 47 rbis is worth one of the best right handed hitters in the American League. He's like Frank Thomas...when he's hampered by a serious injury.

MisterB
10-28-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Sosa has definitely developed discipline throughout his career. In 1997, Sosa had 694 plate appearances. He walked only 45 times. In 2001, he had 711 plate appearances. He walked 116 times. Although he dropped to 63 BBs this years, I would still call that a significant development in discipline. Aside from this, his number of pitches seen per plate appearance has also been steadily increasing since his earlier years.

I don't really mind if a player strikes out a lot. I'd take a player who walks 150 times and strikes out 150 times over a player who walks 10 times and strikes out 10 times.

If you look at Sosa's numbers, his walk rate didn't escalate until his 66 HR year. This is no coincidence. Pitchers don't want to get near the big HR guys anymore. I checked the top 10 lists for walks in each league since 2000, and the players on those lists averaged better than 30 home runs. Only 7 out of the 82 (thanks to ties) had less than 20 homers. About half of those players were also in the top 10 for HR's the same season.

Plate discipline is a lot easier when no one wants to throw you strikes.

(This is also why the prototypical high-OBP, speedy leadoff guys are practically nonexistant. If you can't crush the ball, pitchers will gladly groove fastballs to you because there's less harm done.)

Ventura23Fan
10-28-2003, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Why would we trade a guarenteed .300 30 120 man for a 2nd year 2nd baseman who tanked in the second half of his second year. And what prospects could the Yankees possibly have that would make up this great divide?

Will the Sox be getting a refund on that guarantee for 2003? Maggs is my favorite current Sox player, but I think he has become too expensive for their payroll. As far as Yankee prospects, I wouldn't mind getting the kid who had a no hitter into the eighth vs. Baltimore in September, I believe his name is Jorge DePaula.

Foulke You
10-28-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I want to live by you Pollyanna....Schoenweiss has never been good as a SP....well perhaps in Little League, but even that is a hunch

Look guys, I'm not saying that Scott Schoeneweis is the messiah of the Sox pitching staff. All I'm saying is that when the 2 win (that's right folks, 2 stinkin' wins!) 4 headed monster of Wright/Cotts/Stewart/Porzio are your options, then Scott Schoeneweis looks much more attractive to me in that role.

In 2000 Schoeneweis was 7W-10L, 2001 he was 10W-11L, and in 2002 he was 9W-8L. In today's game, a record like that and an E.R.A. between 4.50 and 5.25 are the norm for a #5 type guy. If the White Sox had a #5 starter at the beginning of 2003 and he posted a measly 6 to 8 wins, we win the AL Central. Plain and simple.

Remember, this is the #5 spot, you don't need Cy Young himself there. We just need some solid outings from that spot in the rotation. Look at who some of the other playoff teams had in their #5 spots- NYY-Weaver, CHC- Estes, FLA- Pavano, ATL- Jaret Wright, etc. If you look up those guys numbers you will see that they are comparable to Schoeneweis. We don't need an automatic loss every time it is the #5 starter's turn like we had with Wright and company.

Now, I will admit that if we don't find a good replacement for Bartolo then there is going to be more pressure on the #5 spot and the rest of the rotation but assuming we get a decent pitcher to replace him, I'm not losing sleep over Scott Schoeneweis as the #5 starter.

MarkEdward
10-28-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
If you look at Sosa's numbers, his walk rate didn't escalate until his 66 HR year. This is no coincidence. Pitchers don't want to get near the big HR guys anymore. I checked the top 10 lists for walks in each league since 2000, and the players on those lists averaged better than 30 home runs. Only 7 out of the 82 (thanks to ties) had less than 20 homers. About half of those players were also in the top 10 for HR's the same season.

Plate discipline is a lot easier when no one wants to throw you strikes.


That's one theory. Here's another: Sosa hit more homers because of his better plate discipline. He was no longer swinging at those bat pitches, therefore getting more favorable counts and getting better pitches to hit.

Dadawg_77
10-28-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Ventura23Fan
Will the Sox be getting a refund on that guarantee for 2003? Maggs is my favorite current Sox player, but I think he has become too expensive for their payroll. As far as Yankee prospects, I wouldn't mind getting the kid who had a no hitter into the eighth vs. Baltimore in September, I believe his name is Jorge DePaula.

The deal thrown out there while payroll question is factor into this debate, the fact remains this should help the Sox on the matter of baseball talent.

MisterB
10-28-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
That's one theory. Here's another: Sosa hit more homers because of his better plate discipline. He was no longer swinging at those bat pitches, therefore getting more favorable counts and getting better pitches to hit.

It's possible. His batting average did jump that year as well. But his strikeout numbers didn't budge, so he was still swinging at pitches he couldn't hit or taking pitches he should have been swinging at.

StepsInSC
10-28-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
Soriano has awful plate discipline. When he had his incredible monster year two years ago, the stat people like rob neyer researched it a bunch and said that it had basically never happened before that someone had kept up that sort of level of production over a reasonable amount of time while having the awful plate discipline that soriano has. and gee, look what happened, he tanked in the second half this year. people who swing at everything all the time aren't gonna last long like that. did he even have a hit in the playoffs?

He hit .289 with 16HRs and 29 RBIS in the second half (less than that, post all-star). Plus 10 SBs, HOW THE HELL IS THAT CONSIDERED TANKING?!?

MRKARNO
10-28-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
He hit .289 with 16HRs and 29 RBIS in the second half (less than that, post all-star). Plus 10 SBs, HOW THE HELL IS THAT CONSIDERED TANKING?!?

Well i guess we now have another group HOAS ((Haters of Alfonso Soriano).

And if it werent for Mariano Rivera tanking, Soriano would be known as the guy who hit the eventual game winning homer in the 2001 world series. But we all know what happened in that fateful bottom of the 9th in which a former cub both started (Grace) and ended (Gonzalez) the inning

jabrch
10-28-2003, 05:59 PM
OK, Maggs makes 14mm next year and is a FA after the season. Soriano makes 800,000 and I think can't be a FA for 3 more years.

Raise your hand if you want Maggs or Soriano and Matsui/Tejada (12mm) and Castillo (5mm).

Raise your hand if you want Maggs or Soriano and Sheffield.

Raise your hand if you want Maggs or Soriano and Pettite.

Raise your hand if you want Maggs or Soriano, Robbie Alomar, and Millwood.

The Yankees aren't gonna give away a 40/40/.290 under contract for a while for a 30/20/.300 guy who is a FA in one year. Why would they do that? If they want, they can have Vlad/Sheff as FAs without giving up Soriano. This isn't D'angelo Jimenez we are talking about. Has anyone seen his numbers? Move him to CF or play him at 2B, I don't care...but this guy is a stud - as is Maggs. Only he is younger and cheaper. We could do a whole lot with 13mm extra payroll

SoxxoS
10-28-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
OK, Maggs makes 14mm next year and is a FA after the season. Soriano makes 800,000 and I think can't be a FA for 3 more years.

Raise your hand if you want Maggs or Soriano and Matsui/Tejada (12mm) and Castillo (5mm).

Raise your hand if you want Maggs or Soriano and Sheffield.

Raise your hand if you want Maggs or Soriano and Pettite.

Raise your hand if you want Maggs or Soriano, Robbie Alomar, and Millwood.

The Yankees aren't gonna give away a 40/40/.290 under contract for a while for a 30/20/.300 guy who is a FA in one year. Why would they do that? If they want, they can have Vlad/Sheff as FAs without giving up Soriano. This isn't D'angelo Jimenez we are talking about. Has anyone seen his numbers? Move him to CF or play him at 2B, I don't care...but this guy is a stud - as is Maggs. Only he is younger and cheaper. We could do a whole lot with 13mm extra payroll

Can't really argue with that...

BackInBlack
10-28-2003, 06:33 PM
That's a sweet sig, SoxxoS. Where'd you find the image?

Konerkoholic
10-28-2003, 06:51 PM
I love Magglio Ordonez. I want him to play 15 years here, hit 450 homers, have a lifetime average of .310 and win a World Series. Being 17, I haven't seen any great Sox players like Fox and Baines or even the great Frank Thomas. Maggs could be that player I tell my grandkids about in 50 years.
However, jabrch and MRKARNO make a great case to do the deal. The choice of having either Maggs or Soriano and a big time FA (maybe Guererro?) is pretty clear. If the trade doesn't go down, I will be glad because Maggs is a privelege to watch. But if it does happen, I can understand the reasons and the team could very well be better.

Daver
10-28-2003, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by BackInBlack
That's a sweet sig, SoxxoS. Where'd you find the image?

It's a good bet he found it here. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?action=getsmilies&s=)

SoxxoS
10-28-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Daver
It's a good bet he found it here. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?action=getsmilies&s=)

Daver, you are so smart!

BackInBlack
10-28-2003, 07:38 PM
It's a good bet he found it here.

Daver, I'm afraid that's a risk I'm not willing to take.

Okay, yeah yeah, and now's the time where I commend WSI for doing a fantabulous job on the grahpyx, the content, everything awesome about WSI. But I wouldn't say this place was money if it wasn't true. And this place is bank. *two thumbs up*

BTW, I was asking WSI's opinion of Jim Duquette earlier because I know White Sox Nation is probably the most knowledgable fan base in all of baseball, and with me living here in NY, I kinda wanted to catch up on the Chicago flavor of it all.

Joel Perez
10-29-2003, 12:04 AM
Rule #1--NEVER MESS WITH CHEMISTRY.
For example = 1983 White Sox and Jerry Koosman.

Rule #2--Unless a grander opportunity comes around, NEVER TRADE YOUR FRANCHISE PLAYER FOR A HOPEFUL.


Unless Ordonez is being traded for someone like Lance Berkman or Vladimir Guerrero, no way in hell should he ever be mentioned in any trades, regardless of FA year or not. SIGN THE GUY. He hasn't hit 30, should have 4-5 more productive years left at the level he is currently at now, he seems to be well liked by his peers, management and fans.

Why are we even discussing a New York rumor anyway?

Unregistered
10-29-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Rule #2--Unless a grander opportunity comes around, NEVER TRADE YOUR FRANCHISE PLAYER FOR A HOPEFUL. I think Alfonso Soriano, a 25 year old who for the last 2 years averaged .300, with 200 hits and almost 40 home runs has upgraded his "hopeful" status by now(unless you mean that the Yankees are "hopeful" that he keeps hitting like this). That being said, no way is this trade happening.

ondafarm
11-03-2003, 09:41 AM
Ordonez is a franchise player. Never trade your franchise. He is in his prime and worth every penny he is paid. Soriano is a perfect example of a player who has value to the Yankees but none to anyone else. In a Yankee uniform, no umpire would dare call him out on strikes. Take him out of it and his Ks (already high) would skyrocket. His homeruns and stolen bases simply can't make up for such a low OBP. I saw Soriano out of a Yankee uniform in AAA ball. His speed was great, his eye is lousy. His defense was barely adequate. Look at his Questec vs non-Questec numbers. In Questec parks, where there's an extra eye looking over the umpire's shoulder Soriano was a lousy hitter. In short, forget acquiring him. Not worth it. Expect his numbers to fall this coming season when every park has Questec.

hold2dibber
11-03-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Why are we even discussing a New York rumor anyway?

Because Ordonez is owed $14 million next season, which would be at least 1/4 of the entire payroll. The Sox are not in a position where they could field a contender with 1/4 of the payroll going to Maggs. Something has to give - either via trade or getting Maggs to defer some of his '04 money. There's no if, ands or buts about it.

CorkNKerrys
11-03-2003, 05:12 PM
Here's what the Sox should consider: Ditch Sandy Alomar Jr and trade Jose Valentin and Neal Cotts for Soriano. Valentin is too expensive for his frequent errors. Retain Roberto Alomar at 2nd base, have Soriano play 3rd, and now sign Ivan Rodriguez to play catcher.

Ordonez is everything the White Sox want to keep. He's consistant, he's got a great glove, he's the only player to even approach .300 batting, and he's a huge fan favorite. Trading Ordonez only to make salary room to keep the whining DH is ridiculous. Frank Thomas is a great player, and it's preferable to have him, but not at the expense of the real players in the dugout.

voodoochile
11-03-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by CorkNKerrys
Here's what the Sox should consider: Ditch Sandy Alomar Jr and trade Jose Valentin and Neal Cotts for Soriano. Valentin is too expensive for his frequent errors. Retain Roberto Alomar at 2nd base, have Soriano play 3rd, and now sign Ivan Rodriguez to play catcher.

Ordonez is everything the White Sox want to keep. He's consistant, he's got a great glove, he's the only player to even approach .300 batting, and he's a huge fan favorite. Trading Ordonez only to make salary room to keep the whining DH is ridiculous. Frank Thomas is a great player, and it's preferable to have him, but not at the expense of the real players in the dugout.

I don't think that is going to work. I doubt the Yankees would make that trade and why would the Sox dump Crede after a very solid rookie year for a guy who can barely play 2B and has a week arm?

But Welcome Aboard anyway... :D:

hold2dibber
11-03-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by CorkNKerrys
Here's what the Sox should consider: Ditch Sandy Alomar Jr and trade Jose Valentin and Neal Cotts for Soriano. Valentin is too expensive for his frequent errors. Retain Roberto Alomar at 2nd base, have Soriano play 3rd, and now sign Ivan Rodriguez to play catcher.

I can't tell if this is meant to be sarcastic. First, Valentin is a free agent, so the only way the Sox could trade him would be if they sign him first. And in light of the fact that he is a free agent, the Yankees could simply sign him if they wanted him instead of trading away a 25 year old 2B who hits 40 home runs and steal 40 bases each year. But then again, why would they even want Valentin in the first place - they already have Jeter at SS and Valentin hasn't ever shown the ability to play any other position on a regular basis. But even if Valentin was on the Sox roster and even if the Yankees thought he'd make a great 3B, there's no way they'd trade Valentin and Cotts for Soriano - that trade is so lopsided that Cashman would hang up on Williams just for suggesting it. If the Sox covet Soriano, they'd have to give up Lee or Ordonez, and quite possibly more than that, since those two guys are both going into their contract year. Soriano, for all his flaws, is already a very good player, and he has the potential to become a truly great player. You don't trade a guy like that for an average SS and a flawed pitching prospect.

lowesox
11-03-2003, 07:18 PM
Sorry, I'm a little late to post here, but I like this trade. Soriano could come in make a big splash and make very little. Ordonez is great, but on his way out anyways. Besides, we've never won with Ordonez - or any of these players for that matter - so a major deck shuffling is just fine with me.

Tragg
11-03-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
Heard this on air this morning. It is being discussed on the Sox MLB message board right now.

One of the posters completed the deal as Soriano and pitching prospect to Sox for Ordonez.

Plan B, anyone?

This must be a joke

LASOXFAN
11-08-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
One problem with this. Soriano Sucks. I dont know what happened to the guy, but hes no good. Methinks the guy is a Headcase, and is immensely talented, but DUMB as a box of rocks. Those kinds of Players are NOT what you build your team around. WE just got rid of a guy like that.....Does
DAngelo Jimenez ring a bell? And Ironic that he was once a YANKEE castoff too isnt it? Heres the Rule OF Thumb. If the Yankees are Getting Rid of the Guy, You Shouldnt Pursue him.

Eeeeeassssy boy, easy. Soriano DOES NOT suck. Say what you want, but repeat after me, "Soriano does NOT suck."

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, keep in mind what a powerful leadoff hitter he is and then think about how young he is and then remember how many double plays mags grounded into last year.

Deep breaths everyone...

It's much easier to find RF's than it is 2B's.

This would be a great deal. Hate to see Mags go, love the guy, but this would be a steal.

Brian26
11-08-2003, 10:20 PM
It's crazy to compare Soriano to Jiminez. The numbers Soriano put up in 2k2 really were phenomenal. You can't write the guy off as a headcase just yet. I'd hate to see Mags go, though. Tough call.