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MRKARNO
10-27-2003, 12:41 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-031026rogers,1,6591739.column?coll=cs-home-headlines

Tribune regitration required

Thomas is looking at earning only $6 million if he returns to the Sox in 2004 because the club almost certainly will cut him free if he doesn't exercise his end of their complicated contract .

Does Rogers really think that

A. The Sox would be STUPID enough to let Thomas go

and

B. The Yankees are pursuing Thomas?

What has gotten into Rogers lately?

JRIG
10-27-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-031026rogers,1,6591739.column?coll=cs-home-headlines

Tribune regitration required



Does Rogers really think that

A. The Sox would be STUPID enough to let Thomas go

and

B. The Yankees are pursuing Thomas?

What has gotten into Rogers lately?

I'm just surprised today's column wasn't another one ripping McKeon for starting Beckett on three days rest.

And I'm still waiting for him to explain how anything McKeon is doing is worse than what Baker did to Prior and Wood this year. Prior had 11 games of over 120 pitches including 4 over 130 and Wood had 14 over 120 and one of 141.

jabrch
10-27-2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Does Rogers really think that


B. The Yankees are pursuing Thomas?



That's nuts. The Yanks are looking to trade Nick Johnson because they know they have to move Giambi back to 1B so that they can move Bernie to DH. The speculation is that Soriano goes to CF, Boone to 2B and that they aggressively pursue Mike Lowell after 2004 (as if they need one more all-star). Thomas would have no place with the Yanks - NONE.

Lip Man 1
10-27-2003, 02:52 AM
Folks:

With respect you're missing the point here.

You're dealing with George Steinbrenner. A George Steinbrenner who's pissed, embarassed and humiliated.

A George Steinbrenner who has unlimited resouces to do anything he wants.

Remember this is the guy who after the Dodgers eliminated the Yanks in the World Series of 1981 at Yankee Stadium made a public apology to the city of New York.

ANYTHING is possible including going after Thomas. Do you honestly think he gives a damn if the Yanks have three 1st base / DH types on the roster? This is a guy who had eight legit starting pitchers in spring training!

The other point is the Sox payroll or self imposed salary cap. As Rogers has been pointing out for the past two years, as long as the Sox insist on maintaining a small market mentality in a major market they are not able to carry Thomas, Konerko, Lee and Ordonez on the roster. That's the economic situation.

They can't (or probably can't) unload Konerko, so who do they dump? Do you want them to can Ordonez?

I think this is a very realistic possibility unless Thomas pulls a Jose Valentin and takes less money (his 6 million dollar option) to stay put. With Frank's ego who knows if that's going to happen.

Phil is just pointing out a realistic scenario caused directly by Uncle Jerry's refusal to face reality.

Lip

jeremyb1
10-27-2003, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

With respect you're missing the point here.

You're dealing with George Steinbrenner. A George Steinbrenner who's pissed, embarassed and humiliated.

A George Steinbrenner who has unlimited resouces to do anything he wants.

As I mentioned in the other thread Lip, no team has unlimited resources. Also, if you think the Yankees organization would blink at losing millions of dollars, you're crazy. No business looks to operate by losing millions of dollars. The Yankees had a 180 million dollar payroll this season and still no doubt turned in a sizeable profit so it hasn't been an issue and perhaps never will be but they won't willingly lose massive amounts of money.

jeremyb1
10-27-2003, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO

Does Rogers really think that

A. The Sox would be STUPID enough to let Thomas go

and

B. The Yankees are pursuing Thomas?

What has gotten into Rogers lately?

Its been reported by Nightengale in Sports Weekly as well that we won't pick up our option on Frank if he declines his $6 million dollar option. Personally, it sounds incredibly likely to me. I really think Frank is gone if he declines his option but at the same time I don't think that a 35 year old DH is going to fetch a whole lot more than what Frank will average over the remander of the deal if he continues to pick up his options.

chisoxt
10-27-2003, 05:33 AM
Hands down, Phil Rogers is the best baseball writer in the city. I think that it is entirely conceivable that the Yanks could go after Thomas, And what he wrote about Becket was true - the odds are stacked against anybody pitching on three days rest - Beckett just beat the odds.

cornball
10-27-2003, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

With respect you're missing the point here.

You're dealing with George Steinbrenner. A George Steinbrenner who's pissed, embarassed and humiliated.

A George Steinbrenner who has unlimited resouces to do anything he wants.

Remember this is the guy who after the Dodgers eliminated the Yanks in the World Series of 1981 at Yankee Stadium made a public apology to the city of New York.

ANYTHING is possible including going after Thomas. Do you honestly think he gives a damn if the Yanks have three 1st base / DH types on the roster? This is a guy who had eight legit starting pitchers in spring training!

The other point is the Sox payroll or self imposed salary cap. As Rogers has been pointing out for the past two years, as long as the Sox insist on maintaining a small market mentality in a major market they are not able to carry Thomas, Konerko, Lee and Ordonez on the roster. That's the economic situation.

They can't (or probably can't) unload Konerko, so who do they dump? Do you want them to can Ordonez?

I think this is a very realistic possibility unless Thomas pulls a Jose Valentin and takes less money (his 6 million dollar option) to stay put. With Frank's ego who knows if that's going to happen.

Phil is just pointing out a realistic scenario caused directly by Uncle Jerry's refusal to face reality.

Lip


Exactly, emphasis on JR not accepting reality.

gosox41
10-27-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'm just surprised today's column wasn't another one ripping McKeon for starting Beckett on three days rest.

And I'm still waiting for him to explain how anything McKeon is doing is worse than what Baker did to Prior and Wood this year. Prior had 11 games of over 120 pitches including 4 over 130 and Wood had 14 over 120 and one of 141.

Phil mentioned the overuse of Wood and Prior when the Cubs were eliminated. He's been consistent in that area.

Bob

Gumshoe
10-27-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by chisoxt
Hands down, Phil Rogers is the best baseball writer in the city. I think that it is entirely conceivable that the Yanks could go after Thomas, And what he wrote about Becket was true - the odds are stacked against anybody pitching on three days rest - Beckett just beat the odds.

thank you chisoxt, you are telling how it is. HE IS the best writer in the city. He knows more about stuff than anyone else, and he proposes legit reasons why things happened and why they might happen. Granted, he's not always right, but no one is. His explanations are money.

Jeremy, I like your posts, but I think you are off when you say the Yanks even care about millions. They've shown many times that what it takes to win will not be stymied by a few million here or there. That said, I won't shed a tear if Thomas goes. You guys don't agree, but he IS one of the largest reasons why we haven't won in a few years.

... Probably the 3rd biggest. JR and KW Chaos are the other two

Gumshoe

TDog
10-27-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Its been reported by Nightengale in Sports Weekly as well that we won't pick up our option on Frank if he declines his $6 million dollar option. Personally, it sounds incredibly likely to me. I really think Frank is gone if he declines his option but at the same time I don't think that a 35 year old DH is going to fetch a whole lot more than what Frank will average over the remander of the deal if he continues to pick up his options.

White Sox management has a vested interest in wanting Thomas to believe they won't pick up his option. His poker-style contract terms require him to choose to sign at a lower figure or try to find a better situation, which he couldn't do last year. He had a better home-run season, but his average isn't what it used to be, and he is a year older. He might have better luck this year, but he remains a 35-year-old DH. He knows that, and he knows the Sox know that.

The Sox haven't committed to turning down his option. The team has leaked that they probably won't pick up his option. Leaking that they would pick up his option, on the other hand, would be bad business.

34 Inch Stick
10-27-2003, 02:35 PM
That is exactly what I was thinking T Dog. Frank is one of the most risk averse people I have seen. The more he believes the Sox will not pick up the option the more likely he is to use his option.

Deadguy
10-27-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by TDog
White Sox management has a vested interest in wanting Thomas to believe they won't pick up his option. His poker-style contract terms require him to choose to sign at a lower figure or try to find a better situation, which he couldn't do last year. He had a better home-run season, but his average isn't what it used to be, and he is a year older. He might have better luck this year, but he remains a 35-year-old DH. He knows that, and he knows the Sox know that.

The Sox haven't committed to turning down his option. The team has leaked that they probably won't pick up his option. Leaking that they would pick up his option, on the other hand, would be bad business.

That could be very true. They could have leaked this type of propaganda in order to persuade Thomas to pick up his option at $6 million dollars.

In the context of the entire team payroll, 2 million isn't a whole lot of money, but it is still a lot of money, from both Frank's viewpoint and the White Sox viewpoint. From Frank's viewpoint, it is especially a lot of money, since from an individual viewpoint, that's more than someone like me will earn in an entire lifetime. So obviously, he wants to get the most he can possibly get. That's not being selfish, just trying to get the most you can in the context of baseball's current economic environment.

I don't think Frank is being entirely too egotistical in thinking that he could get more than $6 million dollars on the open market. Just look around the league and look at the salaries of a lot of players who are of lesser value than Frank, who are making more.

What Frank will have a problem getting is a longterm deal that would equal the one that is currently on the table, mainly because of his age.

Barry Bonds had one of the greatest seasons ever in 2001, yet received nearly 0 interest from other teams on the open market because of his age and his desire for a longterm contract, so the Giants finally had to just offer him arbitration, before settling on a deal.

With the options available in the current deal, Frank could still be making 10+ million in 2006 and 2007, when he'll be 38 and 39 years old. It will be nearly impossible to get a deal on the open market that could net him that much cash that far down the line.

MRKARNO
10-27-2003, 06:28 PM
If thomas decides to stay now, he can guarentee himself more money when he's older and likely less productive.

AsInWreck
10-27-2003, 06:38 PM
Why would reinsdorf "cut Thomas free", i.e., not take the club option, just because Steinbrenner wants him? If anything, that would give Reinsdorf more reason to take the option, so he could be traded to the Yankees, instead of losing him to FA.

jabrch
10-27-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Why would reinsdorf "cut Thomas free", i.e., not take the club option, just because Steinbrenner wants him? If anything, that would give Reinsdorf more reason to take the option, so he could be traded to the Yankees, instead of losing him to FA.

Frank would invoke his 10/5 rights to not be traded to NYY. He would be happy staying here making 8mm.

Frank, not being the best at handling the CHICAGO media would get eaten up by the NY media. Does anyone think Frank would thrive more in the NY pressure cooker than here? Not me...

Deadguy
10-27-2003, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Frank would invoke his 10/5 rights to not be traded to NYY. He would be happy staying here making 8mm.

Frank, not being the best at handling the CHICAGO media would get eaten up by the NY media. Does anyone think Frank would thrive more in the NY pressure cooker than here? Not me...

He'd probably thrive more in an environment like Baltimore. That'd be a relatively pressure free environment where not much is expected of the team, and if Thomas produces, he'd become an instant fan favorite. It would be much like Pudge's move to Florida.

If he produces, he will be loved. If he falls flat on his face, he probably wouldn't receive that much animosity from the fans or the media.

In Chicago, if Frank fails to produce, he is arguably the most hated athlete in the city. The pressure to produce in New York is no greater than it is here, because people have become complacent towards Thomas' production and the media already considers Frank to be a target.

If we picked up a free agent in the off season at 5 million dollars who put up the same production as Thomas, I don't think there'd be anyone here hoping that he'd take a hike (much like noone wants Esteban to leave).

AsInWreck
10-27-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Frank would invoke his 10/5 rights to not be traded to NYY. He would be happy staying here making 8mm.



I thought one of the clauses of the contract was that he was waiving his 10/5 rights.

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
I thought one of the clauses of the contract was that he was waiving his 10/5 rights.

I don't think he can legally do that.

Daver
10-27-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
I thought one of the clauses of the contract was that he was waiving his 10/5 rights.

No club can include language in a contract that requires a player to waive any of his rights under the CBA.

Ventura23Fan
10-28-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by chisoxt
Hands down, Phil Rogers is the best baseball writer in the city. I think that it is entirely conceivable that the Yanks could go after Thomas, And what he wrote about Becket was true - the odds are stacked against anybody pitching on three days rest - Beckett just beat the odds.
I usually like Phil's columns, but Monday's article was one of the worst I've seen from him. If I did not know better, I might think that Downey had wrote it for him.

He was still throwing out numbers to try to justify his argument. But, even given the numbers, the Marlins still had a shot with Beckett. If they had thrown Redman out there for game 6, they would have had almost no chance. Then, they would be looking at a game 7 in Yankee Stadium. If Phil wants to look at history, he should look at how teams have done recently playing seventh games on the road. McKeon knew they had to win game 6 and he knew that his best option was Beckett on three days rest, not Redman on full rest. Hindsight is 20/20, but going into game 6, after seeing what Beckett had done vs. the Cubs on 2 days rest, I thought McKeon made the right choice.

Then Phil goes on to say "The kid's got quite an arm. Let's hope it is still in working condition next season." It's almost as if Phil wants to see Beckett get injured just so he can say, "See, I told you, they should not have pitched him on three days rest." The Sox pitched Loaiza on three days rest so he could go for his 21st victory. If that is worth the risk of injury, then a World Series ring is definitely worth it.

Lastly, Phil says that Alex Gonzalez was more deserving of the MVP than Beckett was. My only guess is that Phil would not look as bad if Beckett was not MVP. I would have had no problem with co-MVPs, but I think Beckett was very deserving. Yes, he lost game 3, but he only allowed 2 runs in 7 and 1/3 innings. His ERA for the Series was 1.10.

As for the rest of the article, I think Magglio will be in Yankee pinstripes before either Frank or Sosa.