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Gumshoe
10-26-2003, 10:02 PM
If our moronic organization can't figure out that Rowand is a fine play in CF for that kind of money (nothing), then why not think about signing Shannon Stewart? I mean this guy has speed, he KILLED us, and he can play defense like Rowand can. Sorry for all you who like Everett but jeez, Everett has no knees or defensive skills, Rowand puts him to shame. Yes, Carl can hit but if you are going to spend more than 2 MIL on a guy, it's a no brainer to sign Stewart for 3-4 MIL ... check out his last 4 seasons:

Avg. OBP SLG OPS SB
2003 .307 .364 .459 .823
2002 .303 .371 .442 .813
2001 .316 .371 .463 .834
2000 .319 .363 .518 .881

If there is one thing this guy is, it's consistent. When I watch him, he's dangerous. And he's 29. Most importantly, he can play D, and CE can't. For the money, it's a no brainer to put Aaron out there, but as some of you guys disagree, at least I'm putting out an option. Stewart is worlds better than CE as an ALL AROUND PLAYER

Gumshoe

JRIG
10-26-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
If our moronic organization can't figure out that Rowand is a fine play in CF for that kind of money (nothing), then why not think about signing Shannon Stewart? I mean this guy has speed, he KILLED us, and he can play defense like Rowand can. Sorry for all you who like Everett but jeez, Everett has no knees or defensive skills, Rowand puts him to shame. Yes, Carl can hit but if you are going to spend more than 2 MIL on a guy, it's a no brainer to sign Stewart for 3-4 MIL ... check out his last 4 seasons:

Avg. OBP SLG OPS SB
2003 .307 .364 .459 .823
2002 .303 .371 .442 .813
2001 .316 .371 .463 .834
2000 .319 .363 .518 .881

If there is one thing this guy is, it's consistent. When I watch him, he's dangerous. And he's 29. Most importantly, he can play D, and CE can't. For the money, it's a no brainer to put Aaron out there, but as some of you guys disagree, at least I'm putting out an option. Stewart is worlds better than CE as an ALL AROUND PLAYER

Gumshoe

Shannon Stewart is one of the worst defensive outfielders in baseball. He can't throw. Period. He can't throw at all. And for what ever reason his speed doesn't translate well defensively. No way in hell he can play CF, and our corners are pretty full right now anyway.

Daver
10-26-2003, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
If our moronic organization can't figure out that Rowand is a fine play in CF for that kind of money (nothing), then why not think about signing Shannon Stewart? I mean this guy has speed, he KILLED us, and he can play defense like Rowand can.

Since when can Aaron Rowand play defense?

I guess you watch games the rest of the known universe is unable to watch.

Gumshoe
10-26-2003, 10:10 PM
I'm not sure, but if that is true, all the more reason just to go with Rowand. But you must admit that Shannon KILLED us.

Just win, Sox, just win baby

Gumshoe

batmanZoSo
10-26-2003, 10:15 PM
Daver,

I've honestly never seen Rowand make a bad play. I have seen him make many a web gem both catching and throwing guys out. I think YOU must get your FSN feed from an alternate universe. Since when is defense Rowand's problem???

voodoochile
10-26-2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Daver,

I've honestly never seen Rowand make a bad play. I have seen him make many a web gem both catching and throwing guys out. I think YOU must get your FSN feed from an alternate universe. Since when is defense Rowand's problem???

*****! You've never seen him make a bad play? Is that because you choose to ignore the many times a season he seems to run into the wall, or because you just have a bad memory? :D:

Rowand is a mediocre player. His bat is pretty average and his range is nothing great. In addition, he has bad footwork which is why he runs into walls all the time and breaks the wrong way on baseballs semi-regularly.

JRIG
10-26-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Daver,

I've honestly never seen Rowand make a bad play. I have seen him make many a web gem both catching and throwing guys out. I think YOU must get your FSN feed from an alternate universe. Since when is defense Rowand's problem???

Just to give you a hint -- Rowand doesn't run into walls because he's "hustling," he runs into walls because he has no idea where he is on the field and gets terrible reads off the bat.

Good defensive outfielders don't run full-speed into walls. They run to a spot on the field, turn around, and make the catch.

SoxxoS
10-26-2003, 10:26 PM
He also has chronic hamstring problems.

batmanZoSo
10-26-2003, 10:29 PM
JRIG,

Just to give you a hint, in baseball, it doesn't matter if you run into walls if you hold onto the ball. Which he does. Oh, and name one better center field candidate on this team. Fake players not included.

voodoo,

Okay, you bring up how he runs into walls, but nowhere in your post mentions anything about him not making catches. He gets bad reads sometimes, but not so bad that he can't run his hardest and make up for it. He's not a center fielder and he never played it until he came here. But did we lose the division because of Carl Everett? No. And Rowand's twice as good as him. Who are you comparing him to anyway? The guy busts his rear end all the time and he's very adequate in center.

Jim Edmonds used to constantly run into walls. Half a dozen gold gloves later, no one complains.

Brian26
10-26-2003, 10:30 PM
And don't forget Rowand's biggest mistake he constantly makes on the field...

His rainbow throws to homeplate, completey missing the cut-off man, to try to throw guys out that he has no chance on, meanwhile allowing runners to advance an extra base. Half the time the throw goes past the catcher into the stands, and the runners get two extra bases. Don't worry though, Rowand does the cool 360-somersault after he releases his throw, so at least he looks cool.

JRIG
10-26-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
JRIG,

Just to give you a hint, in baseball, it doesn't matter if you run into walls if you hold onto the ball. Which he does. Oh, and name one better center field candidate on this team. Fake players not included.


Carl Everett (if re-signed), Joe Borchard, Jeremy Reed...I'd probably rather see Darrin Jackson come down from the booth to play some CF than see Rowand out there every day.

JRIG
10-26-2003, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Don't worry though, Rowand does the cool 360-somersault after he releases his throw, so at least he looks cool.

Every time I see the somersault, I know the ball is going nowhere near where it should be.

Brian26
10-26-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Every time I see the somersault, I know the ball is going nowhere near where it should be.

I saw the somersault at least a dozen times last year, and never did he throw anyone out. Like I said, he looks cool doing it, but Rodney McCray looked cool crashing through the wall down at Louisville that one year too. Might get you some time on George Michael's Sports Machine, but doesn't win you any games.

voodoochile
10-26-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
voodoo,

Okay, you bring up how he runs into walls, but nowhere in your post mentions anything about him not making catches. He gets bad reads sometimes, but not so bad that he can't run his hardest and make up for it. He's not a center fielder and he never played it until he came here. But did we lose the division because of Carl Everett? No. And Rowand's twice as good as him. Who are you comparing him to anyway? The guy busts his rear end all the time and he's very adequate in center.

Jim Edmonds used to constantly run into walls. Half a dozen gold gloves later, no one complains.

I have nothing against guys who run hard, but I prefer they have more raw talent than Rowand does. Effort and hustle only go so far. I like Rowand as a 4th OF, but don't expect much from him if he is the everyday starter in CF next year. Maybe I'll be pleasently surprised...

You are nuts on the Everett comparison. Everett has a much better bat, IMO and understands CF on a much more intuitive level than Rowand does. Yeah, his wheels aren't what they once were, but he goes back on baseballs much better than Rowand does. He's not my first choice in CF either though. In fact, I am not sure who I would like to see out there next year. I will have to wait and see more info about FA's and trade possibilities before I come to a conclusion. I won't be surprised, merely disappointed and skeptical if Rowand is the starter next year.

cheeses_h_rice
10-26-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Daver,

I've honestly never seen Rowand make a bad play. I have seen him make many a web gem both catching and throwing guys out. I think YOU must get your FSN feed from an alternate universe. Since when is defense Rowand's problem???

Rowand often gets bad initial reads on fly balls, creating all sorts of adventures in the outfield. I remember several times where he would break in, and then backtrack to the fence, only to try and "Willie Mays" the ball and miss by several feet.

Granted, Everett was not much better.

Brian26
10-26-2003, 10:43 PM
Bottom line is this-

Rowand is a very competent 4th outfielder, but you're not going to win a championship with him in the starting lineup everyday. Same goes for Tony G. in the infield. Graf is a sensational 5th infielder, but he's going to kill you if he plays everyday.

batmanZoSo
10-26-2003, 10:50 PM
voodoo,

Rowand will get better with time. My Everett comparison was based on defense only. Put him in left and get rid of Lee. He stinks. Mr. .330 on-base. Everett makes the same money, bats left handed, plays better outfield, is a better hitter and Lee's value is mistakenly high right now because of his power numbers and his age. He's never going to be great. He doesn't take walks and really doesn't have that much power. His career high is 31 and he's like a .280 hitter. And he's an awful base runner.

batmanZoSo
10-26-2003, 10:54 PM
JRIG,

Borchard is a train wreck out there. He's big, slow and doesn't position himself on fly balls when runners are tagging. There's no way in h#ll he's a center fielder.

Jeremy Reed is in AA.

Carl Everett is a fine corner outfielder, but doesn't have enough speed to play center. He has a slight, slight edge in instincts over Rowand, but he doesn't throw out runners like Aaron and isn't as fast.

voodoochile
10-26-2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
voodoo,

Rowand will get better with time. My Everett comparison was based on defense only. Put him in left and get rid of Lee. He stinks. Mr. .330 on-base. Everett makes the same money, bats left handed, plays better outfield, is a better hitter and Lee's value is mistakenly high right now because of his power numbers and his age. He's never going to be great. He doesn't take walks and really doesn't have that much power. His career high is 31 and he's like a .280 hitter. And he's an awful base runner.

Well Lee had the third highest OPS on the team last year and led the team in stolen bases, so I don't know that I agree with your analysis. He is also entering his first year of arbitration eligibility and might end up being cheaper than Everett for a 3 year contract.

If you want to keep Everett than he should play CF full time, IMO. Leave the corners alone unless someone blows your socks off with an offer.

BTW, you rip on Lee for all of his numbers, but they are WAY better than Rowand, they are a similar age and Lee has always been a big prospect in every level of minor league ball and the majors, while Rowand has always been a 4th OF prospect for the most part whose minor league numbers are pretty mediocre. Now you suddenly expect Rowand to blossem (based on what exactly?) and want to dump Lee. It doesn't make sense to me...

Daver
10-26-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
voodoo,

Rowand will get better with time. My Everett comparison was based on defense only. Put him in left and get rid of Lee. He stinks. Mr. .330 on-base. Everett makes the same money, bats left handed, plays better outfield, is a better hitter and Lee's value is mistakenly high right now because of his power numbers and his age. He's never going to be great. He doesn't take walks and really doesn't have that much power. His career high is 31 and he's like a .280 hitter. And he's an awful base runner.

We do have a quote feature that works quite well,it would save you the trouble of posting the name of who you are directing your post at.

And you want to get rid of Lee and keep Rowand,based on numbers?

You are contradicting yourself.

FarWestChicago
10-26-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Now you suddenly expect Rowand to blossom (based on what exactly?) and want to dump Lee. It doesn't make sense to me... That's carrying this whole FOC thing WAY to far. :o:

JRIG
10-26-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
JRIG,

Borchard is a train wreck out there. He's big, slow and doesn't position himself on fly balls when runners are tagging. There's no way in h#ll he's a center fielder.

Jeremy Reed is in AA.

Carl Everett is a fine corner outfielder, but doesn't have enough speed to play center. He has a slight, slight edge in instincts over Rowand, but he doesn't throw out runners like Aaron and isn't as fast.

Take this as non-offensively as possible, but I'm not sure what games you're watching if you think Rowand is a great defensive CFer and Borchard is a "train wreck." There's just no possible way that's accurate.

Reed did something is AA that's nearly impossible to do -- hit over .400 in almost 300 at bats and had twice as many walks than strikeouts. He's ready.

You're right. Everett doesn't throw out runners like Rowand. He throws much differently, like, to the correct base.

batmanZoSo
10-26-2003, 11:04 PM
Daver, I wanna keep Rowand and get rid of Lee based on money. Lee's not worth 8 million for what he brings to the table and the role he plays on this team. Not to mention we have a bunch of guys getting raises and who are much more valuable than a mediocre, overpaid slugger who doesn't slug that much.

And I type the name of the person I'm talking to to save me the trouble of quoting them.

nasox
10-26-2003, 11:06 PM
Rowand is average but he has the POTENTAIL to blossom if he puts in hard work and does drills over and over again. Borchard definitely is not a train wreck-i think he will be a fine player one day, with this organiziation or another. And Everett is just terrible. He is over the hill, can hit well, but just doesn't have the speed or arm to play solid in center field.

MRKARNO
10-26-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Daver, I wanna keep Rowand and get rid of Lee based on money. Lee's not worth 8 million for what he brings to the table and the role he plays on this team. Not to mention we have a bunch of guys getting raises and who are much more valuable than a mediocre, overpaid slugger who doesn't slug that much.

And I type the name of the person I'm talking to to save me the trouble of quoting them.

Is 100+ RBI not enough for you? In the 2 hole for half the season nontheless?

batmanZoSo
10-26-2003, 11:16 PM
JRIG,

Rowand's not great, in fact I said in this thread that he gets bad reads at times. But I think he's better than anyone else on the big league club in center.

For what it's worth, Rowand has outperformed Borchard in every aspect of the game thus far at the big league level. I'm not saying Rowand is a better prospect for the future, but is the preceeding inaccurate? Defense is the least of Borchard's problems. All he does is whiff, even in the minors lately. He could be playing for the Cardinals in two years. And not the Cardinals you're probably thinking of.

Reed spent like three months in AA. He's not ready until he proves otherwise. He's the center fielder of the future, but I'd bet future doesn't mean April 2004.

voodoochile
10-26-2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Daver, I wanna keep Rowand and get rid of Lee based on money. Lee's not worth 8 million for what he brings to the table and the role he plays on this team. Not to mention we have a bunch of guys getting raises and who are much more valuable than a mediocre, overpaid slugger who doesn't slug that much.

And I type the name of the person I'm talking to to save me the trouble of quoting them.

Where do you get $8M for Lee from? You think he will get that much this year?

To save yourself the effort of having to type people's names, just click the "quote" button at the bottom of the post instead of the "post reply" button at the bottom of the thread. Then the computer does all the work and you can be REALLY lazy... :D:

batmanZoSo
10-26-2003, 11:19 PM
MRKARNO,

No. No it isn't.

Dump Lee's salary and pay our three starters what they want and keep our middle infield intact.

Daver
10-26-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
JRIG,

Borchard is a train wreck out there. He's big, slow and doesn't position himself on fly balls when runners are tagging. There's no way in h#ll he's a center fielder.



I missed this post.

Joe Borchard is NOT slow,the only person on the forty man roster that has more speed than Joe does is Willie Harris,that being said,Joe is the best all around athlete on the entire forty man roster,hands down.He also has the best arm on the forty man roster.

I have no idea where you are getting your minor league info from,but you need to find a new source.

batmanZoSo
10-26-2003, 11:24 PM
voodoo,

That's what Lee's gonna make next year. I'm not sure whether it's arbitration or an escalating contract, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. And no one has yet, so........::shrug::

I know how to quote someone, but I don't see any sense in doing it every time. I reply in such a way that you'll know what you said that I'm referring to. And when you scroll through and see your name right there, it's easier for you to spot. I miss replies to me amidst a sea of "quote--originally posted by..."

JRIG
10-26-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Is 100+ RBI not enough for you? In the 2 hole for half the season nontheless?

Hitting in front of Frank Thomas will do amazing things for your offensive game.

MisterB
10-27-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
That's what Lee's gonna make next year. I'm not sure whether it's arbitration or an escalating contract, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. And no one has yet, so........::shrug::

No way in hell Lee gets $8 mil next year. Three years ago Nomar only got $7.25M in arbitration as a 5 year player and he freakin' hit .372! And Lee's career numbers aren't anywhere near what Nomar's were in quality or consistency. Lee gets $5.5M tops, and for that price he may even be worth it (if the his numbers are similar to this year).

For what it's worth, Rowand has outperformed Borchard in every aspect of the game thus far at the big league level .

Borchard has all of 85 major league AB's, and more than half of those came earlier this year when he had wrist tendonitis.

Gumshoe
10-27-2003, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I have nothing against guys who run hard, but I prefer they have more raw talent than Rowand does. Effort and hustle only go so far. I like Rowand as a 4th OF, but don't expect much from him if he is the everyday starter in CF next year. Maybe I'll be pleasently surprised...

You are nuts on the Everett comparison. Everett has a much better bat, IMO and understands CF on a much more intuitive level than Rowand does. Yeah, his wheels aren't what they once were, but he goes back on baseballs much better than Rowand does. He's not my first choice in CF either though. In fact, I am not sure who I would like to see out there next year. I will have to wait and see more info about FA's and trade possibilities before I come to a conclusion. I won't be surprised, merely disappointed and skeptical if Rowand is the starter next year.

A few people on this board just flat out have it against certain people. First you'll hear "Frank Thomas inability to throw a baseball doesn't or won't hurt the White Sox. Then you'll hear "Aaron Rowand looks bad, etc, he runs into this and that, etc. ...

Let's deal in results gentlemen! He makes plays. Remember Carl Everett not even being NEAR that triple by Stewart that lost us the game against the Twins when Loaiza was going? Hits by a single man won't make up for that.

For all of you that see that Rowand is a way better choice for all the reasons I've said, I salute you. Just remember that many guys out here have it out for Rowand for no reason. He is solid. I'll take him over a guy with no knees any day. You think I'm stupid, voodoo?

This comment " [Everett] IMO and understands CF on a much more intuitive level than Rowand does" SHOWS exactly what I'm talking about. It's just pure bull poo

Gumshoe

Hangar18
10-27-2003, 08:15 AM
I dont know why everyones ripping on Rowand, I never thought
the guy was that bad .............. Hes OK

bestkosher
10-27-2003, 08:24 AM
I ahve not heard any words about Edgar Martinex, yes i know he is old but he can take Franks place as a consistent DH. Then use the money we were going to spend on Colon to sign Tajada.
The Outfield vacancy at center could be filled pretty well with Raul Ibanez, (sox killer)

bestkosher
10-27-2003, 08:24 AM
I have not heard any words about Edgar Martinez, yes I know he is old but he can take Franks place as a consistent DH. Then use the money we were going to spend on Colon to sign Tajada.
The Outfield vacancy at center could be filled pretty well with Raul Ibanez, (sox killer)

bc2k
10-27-2003, 09:27 AM
Aaron Rowand hasn't run into a wall full speed in two years. This reminds me of those who keep saying Carlos Lee is a defensive liability. Yes, for a couple of seasons he was, but he improved to the point where he is decent with only his arm being below average. Let's move on.

ARow is taking a lot of heat from those who think prospective talent translates to MLB talent. Rowand and Borchard are proving that wrong. Borchard, while blessed with all the natural athleticism and first round draftee, hasn't shown jack. Rowand, who wasn't annointed as the South Side Savior, is exceeding the expectations put on him by "experts." These upside-down, radical performances by these two has threatened the beliefs of the FOP (potential). They're scared that everything they know is not accurate and deal with such unexpectedness by condemning those players who don't perform like Baseball America thought they would.

Currently, ARow is a much better player than Borchard, despite his natural gifts.

Gumshoe
10-27-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Aaron Rowand hasn't run into a wall full speed in two years. This reminds me of those who keep saying Carlos Lee is a defensive liability. Yes, for a couple of seasons he was, but he improved to the point where he is decent with only his arm being below average. Let's move on.

ARow is taking a lot of heat from those who think prospective talent translates to MLB talent. Rowand and Borchard are proving that wrong. Borchard, while blessed with all the natural athleticism and first round draftee, hasn't shown jack. Rowand, who wasn't annointed as the South Side Savior, is exceeding the expectations put on him by "experts." These upside-down, radical performances by these two has threatened the beliefs of the FOP (potential). They're scared that everything they know is not accurate and deal with such unexpectedness by condemning those players who don't perform like Baseball America thought they would.

Currently, ARow is a much better player than Borchard, despite his natural gifts.

bc2k, that is so money. He is our guy. These other people don't want to believe it. That's why i hate this board some times. McKeon moves Cabrera and Encarnacion out there ... and he WINS

Just win baby

Gum

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
A few people on this board just flat out have it against certain people. First you'll hear "Frank Thomas inability to throw a baseball doesn't or won't hurt the White Sox. Then you'll hear "Aaron Rowand looks bad, etc, he runs into this and that, etc. ...

Let's deal in results gentlemen! He makes plays. Remember Carl Everett not even being NEAR that triple by Stewart that lost us the game against the Twins when Loaiza was going? Hits by a single man won't make up for that.

For all of you that see that Rowand is a way better choice for all the reasons I've said, I salute you. Just remember that many guys out here have it out for Rowand for no reason. He is solid. I'll take him over a guy with no knees any day. You think I'm stupid, voodoo?

This comment " [Everett] IMO and understands CF on a much more intuitive level than Rowand does" SHOWS exactly what I'm talking about. It's just pure bull poo

Gumshoe

First, I never called you stupid. I said you were nuts (read: crazy). It was intended to be light hearted.

Everett runs to a spot and waits for the ball, Rowand drifts with it and hopes to make the play. Everett's technique is intuitive and correct even if he no longer has the speed to make as many plays as he used to. You have on example from the whole season to justify your answer? Since there are no really good stats for defense, most of the judgement is based on annecdotal evidence which isn't worth the toilet paper I have just finished blowing my nose with, IMO.

Suffice it to say, we disagree on the Rowand situation.

No one ever said that Frank's arm doesn't hurt the club, but "some people" seem to think it is a valid reason to keep him off the field. "Other people" feel that is a really ridiculous thought process and that a first baseman's arm is about 5% of the total reason to judge how that player performs. Hitting is about 75% and glove work is the other 20% (IMO). Thus since Frank's glove is as good as Paulie (for example) and his bat is WAY better, using throwing ability to justify keeping Konerko at 1B is pretty silly (not stupid, just silly). :D:

voodoochile
10-27-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Aaron Rowand hasn't run into a wall full speed in two years. This reminds me of those who keep saying Carlos Lee is a defensive liability. Yes, for a couple of seasons he was, but he improved to the point where he is decent with only his arm being below average. Let's move on.

ARow is taking a lot of heat from those who think prospective talent translates to MLB talent. Rowand and Borchard are proving that wrong. Borchard, while blessed with all the natural athleticism and first round draftee, hasn't shown jack. Rowand, who wasn't annointed as the South Side Savior, is exceeding the expectations put on him by "experts." These upside-down, radical performances by these two has threatened the beliefs of the FOP (potential). They're scared that everything they know is not accurate and deal with such unexpectedness by condemning those players who don't perform like Baseball America thought they would.

Currently, ARow is a much better player than Borchard, despite his natural gifts.

Rowand just bounced off a wall and injured his knee in the last month of the season THIS YEAR. That was after he caught the ball at the front of the warning track and continued to drift until he bounced off the wall hard and started limping.

Gumshoe
10-27-2003, 01:28 PM
Fair enough, my friend. We disagree on Rowand. I respect the first of those last two posts. I'm cool with it.

I just am having a hard time figuring out why some people dawg Rowand so much. He came up with some really clutch plays last year, and he is so much better in CF than Everett it's insane. The real kicker though is his cost is ZERO in comparison to other guys. I'm sure MANY people didn't think the marlins could win with cabrera, lee, encarnacion, that's why I don't buy the "we can't win with this guy" at this one position. If we get the pitching and a good manager, my lord, look at the Cubs, they had no business being in the playoffs let alone blowing the Pennant, we can do things. furthermore, our division is weak. If we keep our lineup with Rowand and can keep pitching, I think we have as good a shot as ANY. Give the guy a chance for a FULL season, is all I say. I'm done. Respect to you and the others.

Gumshoe

bc2k
10-27-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Rowand just bounced off a wall and injured his knee in the last month of the season THIS YEAR. That was after he caught the ball at the front of the warning track and continued to drift until he bounced off the wall hard and started limping.

I didn't see that play, or if I did, don't remember it. Using your description, ARow was limping, but you can't say he was "injured".

I don't doubt Everett has the better technique of the two, but looking at Rowand alone, he is a plus defender. His newer batting stance has been successful for him (dropping his hands). The only weak spot in his game is walking. He looks good now and I can't wait to see how he performs in a starting role for even a half-season.

Does anyone have any information on his winter ball performance?

Randar68
10-27-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I didn't see that play, or if I did, don't remember it. Using your description, ARow was limping, but you can't say he was "injured".

I don't doubt Everett has the better technique of the two, but looking at Rowand alone, he is a plus defender. His newer batting stance has been successful for him (dropping his hands). The only weak spot in his game is walking. He looks good now and I can't wait to see how he performs in a starting role for even a half-season.

I believe it was in Texas or Detroit... It was a green OF wall...

Rowand has never been any of the things you mentioned on a consistent basis. I guess we just expect 27 or 28 year old career mediocre players to just find that extra little umph they've been missing.

Back to reality folks. Rowand is not a MLB-caliber starting CF'er.

Randar68
10-27-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Fair enough, my friend. We disagree on Rowand. I respect the first of those last two posts. I'm cool with it.

I just am having a hard time figuring out why some people dawg Rowand so much. He came up with some really clutch plays last year, and he is so much better in CF than Everett it's insane. The real kicker though is his cost is ZERO in comparison to other guys. I'm sure MANY people didn't think the marlins could win with cabrera, lee, encarnacion, that's why I don't buy the "we can't win with this guy" at this one position. If we get the pitching and a good manager, my lord, look at the Cubs, they had no business being in the playoffs let alone blowing the Pennant, we can do things. furthermore, our division is weak. If we keep our lineup with Rowand and can keep pitching, I think we have as good a shot as ANY. Give the guy a chance for a FULL season, is all I say. I'm done. Respect to you and the others.

Gumshoe

Cost is zero compared to Jeremy Reed, Joe Borchard, Chris Singleton????

Ummmmm. No.

Randar68
10-27-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
There is no reason to make this into a personal attack.

I asked several specific questions. I think he is seriously related or IS Aaron Rowand. It's the only possible way to come to many of the conclusions he has...

poorme
10-27-2003, 01:52 PM
Is Carlos Lee $7.5 million better than Rowand? I'm not so sure.

Unregistered
10-27-2003, 01:52 PM
LOL. These heated "How bad does Aaron Rowand Suck?" debates make me feel all warm inside. It's like hearing Christmas music in November...

Randar68
10-27-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Is Carlos Lee $7.5 million better than Rowand? I'm not so sure.

That's a nice figure pulled squarely outta yer butt, huh?

Carlos Lee is an infinitely better hitter than Aaron Rowand.

poorme
10-27-2003, 02:31 PM
Lee's probable 2004 salary = $6-8 million
Rowand probable 2004 salary = $500,000
-----------------------------------------------------------
difference between the two = $5.5 to $7.5 million

Randar68
10-27-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Lee's probable 2004 salary = $6-8 million
Rowand probable 2004 salary = $500,000
-----------------------------------------------------------
difference between the two = $5.5 to $7.5 million

You really think Lee's gonna get 8 million for 2004 in arbitration?

6-6.5 million is the absolute high end, IMO.

Regardless, Rowand isn't worth the paper that 500,000 is printed on, IMO.

poorme
10-27-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You really think Lee's gonna get 8 million for 2004 in arbitration?


I'd guess around $6 mil, but who knows.

AsInWreck
10-27-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
JRIG,



Reed spent like three months in AA. He's not ready until he proves otherwise.

Pujols spent 0 months at AA, and didn't even hit .400 at A.

batmanZoSo
10-27-2003, 03:20 PM
Mister B,

I said take it for what it's worth. I'm not implying either one will have a better career. Borchard hasn't done a damn thing so far, is that false? He hasn't even shown a flash of anything at the big league level except for a couple of solo shots and many times more strikeouts than that.

It might not be 8 million for Lee and I never said it unequivocally would be, but it will be close. Let's not be anal about things.

AsInWreck
10-27-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by bc2k

ARow is taking a lot of heat from those who think prospective talent translates to MLB talent. Rowand and Borchard are proving that wrong. Borchard, while blessed with all the natural athleticism and first round draftee, hasn't shown jack. Rowand, who wasn't annointed as the South Side Savior, is exceeding the expectations put on him by "experts."

Let's not forget Rowand was a 1st round pick. I would hope the sox were thinking this guy would make more than a decent #4 OFer when they used a 1st round pick on him.

batmanZoSo
10-27-2003, 03:35 PM
AsInWreck,

Interesting. My cat's name is Mittens.

What does Pujols have to do with Jeremy Reed? Okay, so Pujols went from A ball to the big leagues.... That doesn't mean Reed can do it. Definitely give him a chance in spring training, but why is he being all but penciled into the lineup when he has yet to see a single pitch from even a triple-A pitcher? I hope to the good lord he jumps right up here next year, but I hope for a lot of things that don't happen. Assuming we don't re-sign Carl Everett, that leaves us with Rowand as the best option at this point for center field. And by god he will be there unless someone flat out beats him for the job.

batmanZoSo
10-27-2003, 03:42 PM
I'm pretty sure Mark Johnson was a first round pick as well. He put up good numbers in college, but went on to become the worst hitter in baseball....which earned him a remarkable amount of playing time. Rowand had a good college career, too, but they were wrong about him being a star. He's not "the answer" in center field, but I think he's good enough to start 3 out of every 4 days while he's young at least. We could be worse off, put it that way.

AsInWreck
10-27-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
AsInWreck,



What does Pujols have to do with Jeremy Reed?

Nothing, as far as hitting .400 at a professional level goes. But he is a player who never played at AA or higher before going to the majors. You said that since Reed only has 300 abs at AA, "He's not ready until he proves it." Silly me, I took that to mean that you were saying a player has to have more than 300 AA ABs to prove that he was ready for MLB.

maurice
10-27-2003, 03:55 PM
The Sox have no natural CFs anywhere close to the major league level. Neither Borchard nor Reed played CF in college. Borchard is very talented but still has a lot to prove. Reed played a lot of corner OF in the minors and played only half a season at AA. Rowand also is not a natural CF. He may be a dumb player who makes ugly plays that result in silly injuries, but he usually ends up catching the ball and is no worse defensively than Everett.

Everett started very poorly in CF this season and gradually improved as he became re-accustomed to the position. He hadn't played CF is quite some time, for obvious reasons. Even at the end of the season, he still got plenty of bad jumps. He does not have a great arm, and his knees are shot. I'd like him back, but he's not a CF. In any event, the Sox are not likely to re-sign Everett or acquire any other OFs this offseason.

My prediction is that the Sox will not have a natural CF until Anderson is ready in 2005.

maurice
10-27-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Assuming we don't re-sign Carl Everett, that leaves us with Rowand as the best option at this point for center field. And by god he will be there unless someone flat out beats him for the job.

This pretty much sums it up, though KW will give Harris (!) and LTP every chance to win the CF job. I'm not sure KW will give Reed a full shot during spring training but, if he keeps swinging like he did last year, he's a sure mid-season callup.

Randar68
10-27-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by maurice
The Sox have no natural CFs anywhere close to the major league level. Neither Borchard nor Reed played CF in college. Borchard is very talented but still has a lot to prove. Reed played a lot of corner OF in the minors and played only half a season at AA. Rowand also is not a natural CF. He may be a dumb player who makes ugly plays that result in silly injuries, but he usually ends up catching the ball and is no worse defensively than Everett.

Everett started very poorly in CF this season and gradually improved as he became re-accustomed to the position. He hadn't played CF is quite some time, for obvious reasons. Even at the end of the season, he still got plenty of bad jumps. He does not have a great arm, and his knees are shot. I'd like him back, but he's not a CF. In any event, the Sox are not likely to re-sign Everett or acquire any other OFs this offseason.

My prediction is that the Sox will not have a natural CF until Anderson is ready in 2005.


How do you define "Natural Outfielder?" Both Borchard and Reed have better arms and instincts than Rowand does right now.

thepaulbowski
10-27-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by bestkosher
I have not heard any words about Edgar Martinez, yes I know he is old but he can take Franks place as a consistent DH.

I thought Edgar was retiring. I thought I heard that, not certain though

MarkEdward
10-27-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I'm pretty sure Mark Johnson was a first round pick as well. He put up good numbers in college, but went on to become the worst hitter in baseball....

You misspelled "Ozzie Guillen."

HTH.

thepaulbowski
10-27-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I dont know why everyones ripping on Rowand, I never thought
the guy was that bad .............. Hes OK

I agree with you, he's a guy who will give 110% whenever it is asked. Apparently if we like Rowand we are either him or related to him. Teams that win have guys like Rowand on their team, IMO.

batmanZoSo
10-27-2003, 05:01 PM
AsInWreck,

What are you talking about? I'm not writing baseball prospect dogmas here. I'm talking about one guy and everything I said about him is true, not to mention most people would agree with me that we can't pencil him into the 2004 lineup.

maurice
10-28-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
How do you define "Natural Outfielder?" Both Borchard and Reed have better arms and instincts than Rowand does right now.

Well, what I wrote was "natural centerfielder." That's a "C," not an "O." :cool:

I don't mean "natural" in the sense that one is born to play CF. I mean that one has played CF for quite some time and thus looks very "natural" in the field. In this sense, (unlike Anderson) Rowand, Borchard, and Reed are not "natural CFs." From what I've seen, Borchard has great tools but still has a lot of work to do. I haven't seen Reed yet, but he's played even less CF than Borchard, so I'm speculating that he still has some work to do, also. The reports I've seen are not contrary.

It would be great if Borchard or Reed turn out to be the answer in CF, but that's certainly not etched in stone at this point. Unfortunately, our shared desire for a top-notch defensive CF may have to wait a few more years. Irrespective of what we think, it looks like the Sox are going to go with a stopgap at CF in 2003. The more relevant and intriguing question is: who will be the Sox SS, 2B, and #1 starter?