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View Full Version : Do we want a post World Series glowing Ozzie now?


Medford Bobby
10-25-2003, 10:52 PM
I like the bitch free spirit this Marlins club has, and maybe he can bring it to the stuffy Ghaindi-ed club we have seen for more then 3 or 4 years now?????........give me some thoughts...................Maybe Torre..........??????? :Wow Cats won todays, Bears Sunday??????????




:reinsy " Hell if the Marlins can win the World Series twice in 7 years, then everything we have done the past 20 years was crap"

VeeckAsInWreck
10-25-2003, 11:01 PM
Nope, I still want Gaston or Torre.

I like that Ozzie was our SS from 1985-1997, but I don't think that is enough to make him our manager. :smile:

dugwood31
10-25-2003, 11:03 PM
One argument for Ozzie is he'll lighten the mood. The third base dugout was a morgue at Comiskey over the past few years.

ChiSox14305635
10-25-2003, 11:04 PM
I kept hearing the announcers praise Ozzie for his aggressive nature with the Florida baserunners. That would be very useful considering the Sox have been seriously lacking in that department.

VeeckAsInWreck
10-25-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox14305635
I kept hearing the announcers praise Ozzie for his aggressive nature with the Florida baserunners. That would be very useful considering the Sox have been seriously lacking in that department.

I believe those were the same announcers who were shocked that White Sox fans would boo their own manager at the All-Star game.

But hey, what do White Sox fans know anyway!

TornLabrum
10-25-2003, 11:22 PM
My official jumping onto the Ozzie bandwagon comes whenever PHG posts my next "Fallen Arches" column (emailed to him around noon today).

RKMeibalane
10-25-2003, 11:32 PM
I still don't think that Guillen is the answer. The Sox need an experienced manager if they want to get to the next level. Guillen has a lively personality, and he would bring energy to the clubhouse, but I don't think he would contribute much in terms of wins, and that's the bottom line.

Gaston is still the man I want to lead the squad.

TornLabrum
10-25-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I still don't think that Guillen is the answer. The Sox need an experienced manager if they want to get to the next level. Guillen has a lively personality, and he would bring energy to the clubhouse, but I don't think he would contribute much in terms of wins, and that's the bottom line.

Gaston is still the man I want to lead the squad.

Gaston is Jerry Manuel with a set lineup.

VeeckAsInWreck
10-25-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Gaston is Jerry Manuel with a set lineup.

You forgot about the part with the TWO World Series Rings

Daver
10-25-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
My official jumping onto the Ozzie bandwagon comes whenever PHG posts my next "Fallen Arches" column (emailed to him around noon today).

Ozzie Guillen is Terry Beavington with an accent.

gosox41
10-26-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I still don't think that Guillen is the answer. The Sox need an experienced manager if they want to get to the next level. Guillen has a lively personality, and he would bring energy to the clubhouse, but I don't think he would contribute much in terms of wins, and that's the bottom line.

Gaston is still the man I want to lead the squad.

Based on the current group of interviews the Sox have had, I think they're seriously screwed. Francona, Bell, Guillen, Gaston....none of them give me positive vibes.

Of the above mentioned clowns, I'm leaning towards Guillen only because of the reviews he's gotten lately and the fact that he stood up to Frank. Bell and Francona haven't won jack. Gaston may be quieter then Manuel and after all the complaining I did about JM sitting there doing nothing, I don't see Gaston as being any sort of upgrade.

Bob

TornLabrum
10-26-2003, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
You forgot about the part with the TWO World Series Rings

I don't think he took over an underachieving group of veterans when he went to Toronto. He would here, and his personality would be a detriment, just as Manuel's was.

VeeckAsInWreck
10-26-2003, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I don't think he took over an underachieving group of veterans when he went to Toronto.

Actually he did, when he took over the job in 1989. It took him a few years but he helped them reach their potential. He can do the same here.

Ozzie Guillen? Why not bring in Fred Manrique or Scott Fletcher while you're at it! :D:

RedPinStripes
10-26-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Ozzie Guillen is Terry Beavington with an accent.

Ouch! Damn that's mean. :D:

DSpivack
10-26-2003, 01:50 AM
Don't mean to sound cynical, but the White Sox hired the Marlins Third Base coach as manager the last time Florida won the World Series.

jabrch
10-26-2003, 04:38 AM
Bevington with an accent or Manuel with a set lineup...geez - I suddenly don't like either of those options. Um...

Whomever suggested we need to be more aggressive on the basepaths ought to sit out there with a stopwatch to time most of our guys to first base. (For Konerko and a few others, you need a sundial - not a stopwatch, but you get the drift. With the general lack of speed we have, aggressiveness might be a bad thing. Didn't we have more runners thrown out at home this season than anyone remembers in the past?

Nick@Nite
10-26-2003, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by DSpivack
Don't mean to sound cynical, but the White Sox hired the Marlins Third Base coach as manager the last time Florida won the World Series.

:jerry
I resemble that remark

soxtalker
10-26-2003, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by DSpivack
Don't mean to sound cynical, but the White Sox hired the Marlins Third Base coach as manager the last time Florida won the World Series.

That's hardly a rationale for avoiding Ozzie. The two Florida teams were quite different, and the two people in question (JM and Ozzie) are also very different. I don't recall anyone arguing that we should hire him because he's on the WS champion team. (Oddly enough, I do seem to recall that was part of the argument for hiring Manuel.)

I think that the arguments for and against Ozzie have been identified pretty clearly. Same for Cito Gaston. Less so for the others, but they have been discussed. There seem to be trade offs on most.

Dan H
10-26-2003, 07:56 AM
I don't like the idea of hiring another rookie manager, but in this case I'd make an exception. Because of his cut-up nauture, I think that Guillen is underestimated. I have always thought Guillen was a smart player. I was impressed with his veteran presence on the field when he came to the Sox as a rookie in 1985.

There is a story about Guillen I also find impressive. When Ryan Klesko was with Atlanta, Guillen overheard him cussing himself during battle practice after knocking a ball in the gap. Guillen told him he shouldn't have mad at himself for not knocking it over the wall. Yes, this was just a small incident, but Guillen knew what he was talking about. It is hard for player to perform if he puts too much pressure on himself. Guillen was smart enough to know that.

TornLabrum
10-26-2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by DSpivack
Don't mean to sound cynical, but the White Sox hired the Marlins Third Base coach as manager the last time Florida won the World Series.

Gen. Disarray was the bench coach for Jim Leyland, iirc.

TornLabrum
10-26-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
Actually he did, when he took over the job in 1989. It took him a few years but he helped them reach their potential. He can do the same here.

Ozzie Guillen? Why not bring in Fred Manrique or Scott Fletcher while you're at it! :D:

I just looked at playing time for the Blue Jays. The reason it took some time for Toronto to "reach their potential" is that most of the '89 starters were gone by the time the Jays won the pennant.

Between 1989 when Gaston took over and 1992 when they took their first world series, there was nearly a complete turnover in their nine starters. The only regular starter from '89 who was still a regular starter in '92 was Kelly Gruber. There was a 40% turnover in the starting rotation in that time, too.

Of the 9 regulars and 5 starting pitchers, 5 reguars and 2 starting pitchers were not on the roster in '89.

The starters in '89 and '92 and their ages:

Ernie Whitt, 37; Pat Borders, 29 (#2 catcher in '89)
Fred McGriff, 25; John Olerud, 23 (6 games in '89)
Nelson Liriano, 25; Roberto Alomar, 24 (not on '89 roster)
Kelly Gruber, 27; Gruber, now 30
Tony Fernandez, 27; Manuel Lee, 27 (99 games in '89)
George Bell, 29; Devon White, 29 (not on '89 roster)
Lloyd Moseby, 29; Candy Maldonado, 31 (not on '89 roster)
Junior Felix, 21; Joe Carter, 32 (not on '89 roster)
Rance Mulliniks, 33; Dave Winfield, 40 (not on '89 roster)

Starting rotation:

Jimmy Key, 28; Key, now 31
Dave Stieb, 31; Stieb, now 34
John Cerutti, 29; Juan Guzman, 25 (not on '89 roster)
Mike Flanagan, 37; Jack Morris, 37 (not on '89 roster)
Todd Stottlemyre, 24; Stottlemyer, now 27

Another consideration is that by 1990, five of the regulars were no longer regulars or were off the roster (Whitt, McGriff, Liriano, Bell, Moseby, and Mulliniks, who would be the regular DH in '91). Flanagan was replaced in the rotation byDavid Wells.

Based on this roster data, I'd say your premise is false. The team was rebuilt between '89 and '92. Gaston didn't transform them at all.

nasox
10-26-2003, 12:58 PM
ozzie is better than gaston but if torre is availible, he is my first choice-the guy is a genius. ozzie was good for a team with young players and lots of rookies but with a veteran sox team he wouldn't be the choice. Maybe in a few years.

Lip Man 1
10-26-2003, 01:09 PM
Joe Cowley of the Southtown has an analysis today of the Sox managerial candidates and concludes that if Kenny Williams is calling the shots the winner will be Gaston because Guillen isn't afraid to speak his mind, and "refuses to be put on a leash."

He says if Reinsdorf is calling the shots it'll be Guillen but that if both men have equal input the winner will be Buddy Bell as a compromise candidate.

He concludes his story with the following which is dead on the money..."Which one will get the job? Remember, these are the Sox, and the record shows that when they are involved, the only certainty is uncertainty.

Lip

VeeckAsInWreck
10-26-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I just looked at playing time for the Blue Jays. The reason it took some time for Toronto to "reach their potential" is that most of the '89 starters were gone by the time the Jays won the pennant.

Another consideration is that by 1990, five of the regulars were no longer regulars or were off the roster (Whitt, McGriff, Liriano, Bell, Moseby, and Mulliniks, who would be the regular DH in '91). Flanagan was replaced in the rotation byDavid Wells.

Based on this roster data, I'd say your premise is false. The team was rebuilt between '89 and '92. Gaston didn't transform them at all.

Ok fine so maybe my statement was off, but you just helped me prove a point.
Although Gaston went through a rebuilding process, he still managed to have 4 division titles. That just proves that if you give him the horses, he can take you to the promised land.

If anything, I think I want him to manage this team even more.

TornLabrum
10-26-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
Ok fine so maybe my statement was off, but you just helped me prove a point.
Although Gaston went through a rebuilding process, he still managed to have 4 division titles. That just proves that if you give him the horses, he can take you to the promised land.

If anything, I think I want him to manage this team even more.

Maybe the team that was put together around him fit his personality. I proved nothing regarding your point. My point is that he hasn't taken a team of underachieving veterans and turned them into champions, as you strongly suggested, and with his Manuelesque personality, there is nothing in his past to suggest he can.

valposoxfan
10-26-2003, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Ozzie Guillen is Terry Beavington with an accent.

I honestly don't see how you can say that. Don't you think Ozzie would have seen all of the crap Bevington pulled while Ozzie played for him? You make it sound like Guillen is a complete idiot. I really don't think that that is the case. This team needs a spark. Ozzie is that spark no doubt about it. No other candidate will be able to bring the fun back into the game and maybe improve clubhouse relations like Guillen could and I am extremely confident about that. He knows the game and he is EXTREMELY competitive. Comparing him to Bevington makes no sense.

Daver
10-26-2003, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
I honestly don't see how you can say that. Comparing him to Bevington makes no sense.

Hmmmm,let's see.

Take a ballplayer that had no discipline to any facet of his game for his entire career,and expect him to be able to bring discipline and a sense of order to a clubhouse as their leader?

Compared to a failed ballplayer that had no idea what discipline was in the first place.

Yep Ozzie is a prime candidate to fill these shoes.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/Bev's%20Shoes.jpg

VeeckAsInWreck
10-26-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
there is nothing in his past to suggest he can.

And what qualifications does Ozzie Guillen have?

Personally, I have nothing against Ozzie, I loved when he was our SS back in the 80's and Mid 90's. But other than that, I see no reason for us to have him manage a bunch of veterans. If we were the Detroit Tigers, (Thank God we're not!) then I could see Guillen being the right choice.

DSpivack
10-27-2003, 01:29 AM
I like both Ozzie and Gaston but only because they seem to be the best of a rather mediocre bunch.

It seems Ozzie would bring in fire and zeal, while Cito would bring in experience and a set lineup.

Yeah, before I post things like JM as 3rd base coach, I should actually look it up before trusting my not-so-perfect memory; oh well, still a coach, just at different roles.