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cornball
10-23-2003, 09:06 PM
Assuming Colon signs for 13MM, Thomas returns for 6MM

we have Loaiza is for 4MM, Koch is back for 6.375MM, Mags 14MM, Konerko at 8MM under contract for next season

Sullivan has an option for 3.1MM (possible return)

_________________________________________________

The Grand Total is 54.475MM with those players alone.


Now you have abitration players such as Lee.

Without going down the laundry list, how in the world is KW and JR going to keep the budget at 56MM or there abouts.

Especially with talks started to resign Graf and Robbie ect.

How can we keep the base of core players and build a championship team under these constraints. I don't see it, maybe some of you have ideas.

MRKARNO
10-23-2003, 09:19 PM
Well it doesnt hurt that Sullivan has pretty close to zero chance of being back

batmanZoSo
10-23-2003, 10:36 PM
We gotta trade Konerko. That's part of the solution. Daubach is gonna put up just as good if not better numbers than Konerko next year and he can't be making more than a mill and a half. I think Konerko has a serious health problem that no one's talking about. He might be done, and I think he is.

MRKARNO
10-23-2003, 10:40 PM
Except that Konerko's career numbers are still good enough to warrant not giving him away for nothing

cornball
10-24-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
We gotta trade Konerko. That's part of the solution. Daubach is gonna put up just as good if not better numbers than Konerko next year and he can't be making more than a mill and a half. I think Konerko has a serious health problem that no one's talking about. He might be done, and I think he is.

I think Daubach made 450,000 last year. The point is with the contract of so few adding up to so much......deals are going to be made.

FA would be nice but dont count on it.

hold2dibber
10-24-2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
We gotta trade Konerko. That's part of the solution. Daubach is gonna put up just as good if not better numbers than Konerko next year and he can't be making more than a mill and a half.

But everyone in the league knows that - that's why no one will take Konerko in a trade unless they unload a contract that is just as bad onto the Sox. Which, obviously, doesn't do the Sox much good in terms of getting the payroll into check.

hold2dibber
10-24-2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Assuming Colon signs for 13MM, Thomas returns for 6MM

we have Loaiza is for 4MM, Koch is back for 6.375MM, Mags 14MM, Konerko at 8MM under contract for next season

Sullivan has an option for 3.1MM (possible return)

_________________________________________________

The Grand Total is 54.475MM with those players alone.


Now you have abitration players such as Lee.

Without going down the laundry list, how in the world is KW and JR going to keep the budget at 56MM or there abouts.

Especially with talks started to resign Graf and Robbie ect.

How can we keep the base of core players and build a championship team under these constraints. I don't see it, maybe some of you have ideas.

There's no way in all hell they're going to exercise Sullivan's option for the very reason that they can't afford to. But this is the same point I've been trying to make for a few weeks. To keep this team in tact, JR has to up the payroll substantially - to at least $70 mm. All indications are that he will not do so. That means they are going to have to trade some big money, marque players. Maggs, Lee, Loaiza, Frank are all on the block. How can it be otherwise? Konerko and Koch are untradeable - these are the guys with value who also make big $.

Worse yet, even if Colon doesn't accept, the Sox will have about $44 million spent on Loaiza, Thomas, Maggs, PK, Koch and Lee (assuming he gets about $6 mm for '04). Buehrle and Garland combined will make $5 mm next year. That gets us to $49 mm. The rest of the young players still under the Sox control (Olivo, Wright, Marte, Wunsch, Rowand, Crede, Miles) will cost about $3 mm, which gets us to $52. So even if Colon doesn't re-sign, the Sox will have virtually no ability to sign any free agents to fill gaps at CF, 2B, in the rotation or on the bench. Something has to give.

jabrch
10-24-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
We gotta trade Konerko. That's part of the solution. Daubach is gonna put up just as good if not better numbers than Konerko next year and he can't be making more than a mill and a half. I think Konerko has a serious health problem that no one's talking about. He might be done, and I think he is.

My proposal is package Mags and Konerko to NYY for Nick Johnson and a pitching prospect or two. Gets rid of PK, gets us a cheap, quality starting 1B for a while to come. Yes, we lose Mags, but we can replace him either with Reed or via FA. I don't have many other better ideas. I know given these constratints that I want Frank to accept the 6mm. If he turns it down, I don't see him getting the 8mm - not given the 2mm buyout burden that would fall to him. I don't want to see him go - but if he doesn't like 6mm, I don't see him back here.

Iwritecode
10-24-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Assuming Colon signs for 13MM, Thomas returns for 6MM

we have Loaiza is for 4MM, Koch is back for 6.375MM, Mags 14MM, Konerko at 8MM under contract for next season

Sullivan has an option for 3.1MM (possible return)

_________________________________________________

The Grand Total is 54.475MM with those players alone.


Now you have abitration players such as Lee.

Without going down the laundry list, how in the world is KW and JR going to keep the budget at 56MM or there abouts.

Especially with talks started to resign Graf and Robbie ect.

How can we keep the base of core players and build a championship team under these constraints. I don't see it, maybe some of you have ideas.

Simply put, it's not possible.

The phrases '$56 million budget', 'Chicago White Sox' and 'championship' do not go togther. This team is not built to win on a low budget.

The Marlins are one game away from being the ONE exception to the rule of low payroll = no WS. They are built completely different than the Sox though.

The only way the Sox are going to compete this year is to try and keep the talent they do have and plug in the holes where needed.

So it's either raise the payroll or settle for second place (again). I know which one I want. I can guess which one we'll get though...

RichH55
10-24-2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Simply put, it's not possible.

The phrases '$56 million budget', 'Chicago White Sox' and 'championship' do not go togther. This team is not built to win on a low budget.

The Marlins are one game away from being the ONE exception to the rule of low payroll = no WS. They are built completely different than the Sox though.

The only way the Sox are going to compete this year is to try and keep the talent they do have and plug in the holes where needed.

So it's either raise the payroll or settle for second place (again). I know which one I want. I can guess which one we'll get though...


Isn't Minnesota going to be having more than its fair share of problems too? Completely new look Bullpen, some positional players gone?

poorme
10-24-2003, 01:58 PM
The Sox missed their window of opportunity IMO.

Iwritecode
10-24-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Isn't Minnesota going to be having more than its fair share of problems too? Completely new look Bullpen, some positional players gone?

IIRC, I think a few people were saying that last year too. Somehow they dug deep and managed to keep some players people thought would be gone.

It wouldn't surprise me to see that happen again. I don't follow the Twins real close though. Might want to ask one of the local Twins trolls that hang around here.

RichH55
10-24-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
IIRC, I think a few people were saying that last year too. Somehow they dug deep and managed to keep some players people thought would be gone.

It wouldn't surprise me to see that happen again. I don't follow the Twins real close though. Might want to ask one of the local Twins trolls that hang around here.

Hawkins and Guardado are both FAs and I think one or two of the OF is too

daveeym
10-24-2003, 02:29 PM
I thought it was already stated multiple times in the rags, by KW notably, that he'll have about $70 mil to play with.

Now to my rants

1. Will those who actually want Daubach as our first baseman please go to the lot out back and shoot yourselves.

2. Those who want to keep frank (for anything other than the old fashioned (for baseball) reason of loyalty) over Mags, Lee and others please queue up behind the Daubach fans.

3. There is no way they throw 30-40 mill at colon and then make all these trades for prospects and get rid of established stars/veterans for another second place finish.

4. Everyone that wants maggs gone and Reed, Liefer, Rowand, Bozo the Clown, Steve Bartman, Ivan Calderon or Cruz Jr. as our right fielder, you get to jump to the font of the line ahead of the daubach fans.

maurice
10-24-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
2. Those who want to keep frank (for anything other than the old fashioned (for baseball) reason of loyalty) over Mags, Lee and others please queue up behind the Daubach fans

The Maggs trade proposals all assume that KW was correct about next season's budget constraints. Loyalty aside, the best reason to keep Frank and to trade Maggs is $$$. Maggs (probably) will be paid almost two-and-a-half times more money than Frank next year. Maggs is more valuable than Frank, but he's not two-and-a-half times more valuable. In addition, neither (probably) will be a free agent this offseason, so dumping either would require a trade. Trading Maggs would get a lot more in return.

Realist
10-24-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
We gotta trade Konerko... I think Konerko has a serious health problem that no one's talking about.

Only his psychiatrist knows for sure.

StepsInSC
10-24-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
2. Those who want to keep frank (for anything other than the old fashioned (for baseball) reason of loyalty) over Mags, Lee and others please queue up behind the Daubach fans.

Your logic seems backwards...its OKAY to want Frank for that old-fashioned tingly-in-the-pants feeling, but if you want to keep him because he is still PRODUCTIVE then you should kill yourself? ***? But your argument doesn't state that you believe he's unproductive, just that he shouldnt be on the team unless its for fuzzy memory type feelings?

I wouldn't mind Daubach at DH if he can put up numbers like has in the past when he's played full time. As long as Frank gets most of the time at 1B. We could use a left handed bat giving us 20+HR with 70+ RBIs.

cornball
10-24-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
My proposal is package Mags and Konerko to NYY for Nick Johnson and a pitching prospect or two. Gets rid of PK, gets us a cheap, quality starting 1B for a while to come. Yes, we lose Mags, but we can replace him either with Reed or via FA. I don't have many other better ideas. I know given these constratints that I want Frank to accept the 6mm. If he turns it down, I don't see him getting the 8mm - not given the 2mm buyout burden that would fall to him. I don't want to see him go - but if he doesn't like 6mm, I don't see him back here.

My proposal is to resign Colon, Gordan, Sullivan.

Garland, Lee and Buerlhe are getting arbitration this year. Pick up another solid reliever (Timlin, Hasegawa, Guardado) come to mind, another starter (l Hernandez, Petitte, Pavano, Ponson)come to mind.

Resign Robbie and Everett. Get Kas for short and do it before Chistmas and you will have 20,000 plus season tix holders.

But seriously build up the pitching staff and get some speed in center and at ss. If you do, you can afford to move some of the power ala Lee or PK or whom ever. Thats my 2 cents.

hold2dibber
10-24-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by cornball
My proposal is to resign Colon, Gordan, Sullivan.

Garland, Lee and Buerlhe are getting arbitration this year. Pick up another solid reliever (Timlin, Hasegawa, Guardado) come to mind, another starter (l Hernandez, Petitte, Pavano, Ponson)come to mind.

Resign Robbie and Everett. Get Kas for short and do it before Chistmas and you will have 20,000 plus season tix holders.

But seriously build up the pitching staff and get some speed in center and at ss. If you do, you can afford to move some of the power ala Lee or PK or whom ever. Thats my 2 cents.

What you're proposing would take an $80 million payroll (at least).

daveeym
10-24-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Your logic seems backwards...its OKAY to want Frank for that old-fashioned tingly-in-the-pants feeling, but if you want to keep him because he is still PRODUCTIVE then you should kill yourself? ***? But your argument doesn't state that you believe he's unproductive, just that he shouldnt be on the team unless its for fuzzy memory type feelings?

I wouldn't mind Daubach at DH if he can put up numbers like has in the past when he's played full time. As long as Frank gets most of the time at 1B. We could use a left handed bat giving us 20+HR with 70+ RBIs.

Finish off the rest of the quote - keeping frank before maggs, lee and others is stupid. If you want to be loyal to frank you don't need to go shoot yourself because i understand that and am not going to argue with someone on a position based on loyalty. My argument doesn't state that he's unproductive because his production is not the point of the argument.

hold2dibber
10-24-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
I thought it was already stated multiple times in the rags, by KW notably, that he'll have about $70 mil to play with.

I've never heard that. Every thing I've seen/heard/read has said the payroll is going to be about the same as in '03 (i.e., about $56 mm).

1. Will those who actually want Daubach as our first baseman please go to the lot out back and shoot yourselves. /QUOTE]

Over the course of their careers, here are PK's numbers vs. Daubach's numbers for every 162 games played:

PK: 26 HR, 95 RBI, .812 OPS
BD: 24 HR, 85 RBI, .822 OPS

Daubach is a perfectly acceptable alternative at first base. He sucked last year because he didn't get enough p.t. Ask any Boston fan - they'll tell you that Daubach is a streaky hitter and that he needs ABs to get going. Over the course of a season, he would put up perfectly respectible numbers. And he would do it for less than $1 million per year, which would free up salary to pay guys like Maggs, Colon, Gordon, etc.


[QUOTE]2. Those who want to keep frank (for anything other than the old fashioned (for baseball) reason of loyalty) over Mags, Lee and others please queue up behind the Daubach fans.

I want to keep Frank because he was by and far the best DH in the AL last year, and one of the top ten most productive hitters overall. If you disagree, please tell me why.

3. There is no way they throw 30-40 mill at colon and then make all these trades for prospects and get rid of established stars/veterans for another second place finish.

I agree it doesn't make sense, but if you crunch the numbers, there's no way for them to sign Colon and keep the current team in tact (or even keep it reasonably close to in tact) without the payroll going through the roof.

4. Everyone that wants maggs gone and Reed, Liefer, Rowand, Bozo the Clown, Steve Bartman, Ivan Calderon or Cruz Jr. as our right fielder, you get to jump to the font of the line ahead of the daubach fans.

Nobody wants Maggs gone. But for the $14 mm the Sox will have to pay Maggs this year, the Sox could probably sign Carl Everett, Tom Gordon, and Mike Cameron. Or Mike Timlin, Luis Castillo and Sidney Ponson. The point is, with a limited payroll budget, paying Maggs that much money will make it virtually impossible to field a contender this year. The best solution, however, would be to give Maggs an extension but get him to agree to defer a decent chunk of his '04 salary. But if that doesn't fly, they're better of moving him and spreading that money around to plug holes at multiple positions.

MRKARNO
10-24-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by cornball
My proposal is to resign Colon, Gordan, Sullivan.

Garland, Lee and Buerlhe are getting arbitration this year. Pick up another solid reliever (Timlin, Hasegawa, Guardado) come to mind, another starter (l Hernandez, Petitte, Pavano, Ponson)come to mind.

Resign Robbie and Everett. Get Kas for short and do it before Chistmas and you will have 20,000 plus season tix holders.

But seriously build up the pitching staff and get some speed in center and at ss. If you do, you can afford to move some of the power ala Lee or PK or whom ever. Thats my 2 cents.

It would be tough to do all of this for under 90 mil. Just keeping the current roster would cost 70 mil + 10 mil for a starter and 6 Mil for kaz and 4 mil for Timlin?

We're not the yankees or even the Dodgers. I thought what they spent last year was a bit of a stretch for the team. That whole post should have been in deep pink

StepsInSC
10-24-2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Finish off the rest of the quote - keeping frank before maggs, lee and others is stupid. If you want to be loyal to frank you don't need to go shoot yourself because i understand that and am not going to argue with someone on a position based on loyalty. My argument doesn't state that he's unproductive because his production is not the point of the argument.

Yea my bad I missed the part relative to Lee and Ordonez. Sorry bout that, but I agree with ya.

cornball
10-24-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
What you're proposing would take an $80 million payroll (at least).


I know an 80MM payroll will not happen under JR watch, but in this day and age it would rank 10th in the league using last years numbers. All I am saying is that to lure FA here, it would cost more than most places because players dont think JR is truly not commited to win. It costs money, higher salaeried teams are usually in the playoffs and usually win the WS. There are few examples to break this ....i know. With a large market team, and a great lease.....long wait since the last time...if he does go for it ....he would get his money back 5 times over if he won.

hold2dibber
10-25-2003, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by cornball
...if he does go for it ....he would get his money back 5 times over if he won.

That's the truth. But JR is not a gambling man. I just can't see him rolling the dice. He's firmly in the "just because you spend money doesn't mean you'll win camp" as opposed to the "if you don't spend money, you can be pretty damn sure you won't win" camp.

ma-gaga
10-25-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
It wouldn't surprise me to see that happen again. I don't follow the Twins real close though. Might want to ask one of the local Twins trolls that hang around here.

huh? what?? did someone call?

FA: Guardado, Hawkins, Shannon Stewart, Kenny Rogers, Rick Reed, Denny Hocking, Chris Gomez
Arb eligible: Mientkiewicz, Pierzynski, Rivas... I think that's it, possibly Santana depending on where he qualifies at. I'm a little hazy on service time requirements for pitchers.

Gut says: They resign Mientkiewicz/Pierzynski/Rivas to one year deals. They resign Hawk to a 3 year deal for a LOT of money. They try to resign Guardado to a 2 year deal but lose him. They let Shannon walk. Maybe offer him arbitration to get a draft pick.

I don't have a good read on Kenny Rogers, I'd like him to come back, but for less than $4 MM, and I don't know if that's possible. Hocking and Gomez are the definition of utility infielders. They'll probably resign one of them for the minimum.

Long story short: The Twins will likely lose their half season MVP Stewart. They'll probably lose one of their upper tier relief pitchers, and a good innings eating lefthanded starter. They'll keep their uber-prospects, Morneau and Mauer in the minors for one more year and hope that one of their outfield prospects can TAKE OVER right field. But they'll get Santana for 30 starts next year, and hopefully Milton/Radke/Lohse will each get 30 starts as well. Then they just need to find a 5th starter that doesn't suck.

They should have a good team in 2004. Then their pitching staff comes up for extensions. That'll be the interesting/dismantling year.

batmanZoSo
10-25-2003, 12:29 AM
jabrch,

I do not accept hypo's involving trading Maggs or Frank Thomas. Why does no one say get rid of Lee? Maggs is worth 14 million more than Lee is worth 8.

gosox41
10-26-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
huh? what?? did someone call?

FA: Guardado, Hawkins, Shannon Stewart, Kenny Rogers, Rick Reed, Denny Hocking, Chris Gomez
Arb eligible: Mientkiewicz, Pierzynski, Rivas... I think that's it, possibly Santana depending on where he qualifies at. I'm a little hazy on service time requirements for pitchers.

Gut says: They resign Mientkiewicz/Pierzynski/Rivas to one year deals. They resign Hawk to a 3 year deal for a LOT of money. They try to resign Guardado to a 2 year deal but lose him. They let Shannon walk. Maybe offer him arbitration to get a draft pick.

I don't have a good read on Kenny Rogers, I'd like him to come back, but for less than $4 MM, and I don't know if that's possible. Hocking and Gomez are the definition of utility infielders. They'll probably resign one of them for the minimum.

Long story short: The Twins will likely lose their half season MVP Stewart. They'll probably lose one of their upper tier relief pitchers, and a good innings eating lefthanded starter. They'll keep their uber-prospects, Morneau and Mauer in the minors for one more year and hope that one of their outfield prospects can TAKE OVER right field. But they'll get Santana for 30 starts next year, and hopefully Milton/Radke/Lohse will each get 30 starts as well. Then they just need to find a 5th starter that doesn't suck.

They should have a good team in 2004. Then their pitching staff comes up for extensions. That'll be the interesting/dismantling year.


I thought I read somewhere that the Twins have 12 FA/arbitration eligible players. I don't follow the team enough to know the contrat status of some of thsoe guys, though.

Bob