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View Full Version : Between Cito and Ozzie...


Viva Magglio
10-23-2003, 04:36 PM
...whom do you want?

npdempse
10-23-2003, 11:09 PM
I hope there are other options, but I'll take a fiery coach after the Manuel years. Regardless of whether he wins or loses, at least there's a show. :D:

henchmanUK
10-24-2003, 06:01 AM
Ozzie. It helps that the Marlins are kicking Yankee arse at the moment!

Realist
10-24-2003, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by npdempse
I hope there are other options, but I'll take a fiery coach after the Manuel years. Regardless of whether he wins or loses, at least there's a show. :D:

I was thinking the same way but after I read Guillen's comments about how Robbie Alomar described the chaos in the clubhouse, I realised that maybe it wasn't Manuel's lack of "rah rah" that sunk the 2003 Sox, but rather how poor his communication skills were.

I think that you can fire up a team just by creating an atmosphere of respect and single minded focus for winning (everything I've read about Gaston says that's what he does) as you can by having a fiery personality.

Gaston is experienced at getting very talented players to play up to their potential and winning. Guillen is experienced at being a fireplug. Maybe Guillen is Tony Pena and maybe he's Bobby Valentine. We really don't know yet. Gaston has proven that he can take a team of superstars and get them all playing off the same page and win 2 World Series. I voted for Gaston.

adsit
10-24-2003, 07:31 AM
I'm still pulling for Hargrove, but Gaston's my second choice. While I admire Ozzie's determination, I think our free-spirited veterans need to be helmed by someone not undergoing on-the-job training. That's not so much a knock on Oz as you might think. I just don't think ours is the right team for his first try.

ode to veeck
10-24-2003, 11:33 AM
Cito as skipper , but hire Ozzie as coach too

TDog
10-24-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Realist
... maybe it wasn't Manuel's lack of "rah rah" that sunk the 2003 Sox, but rather how poor his communication skills were

This is an excellent point. I have heard that relief pitchers in particular had almost no direct contact with Manuel.

I've also heard some pretty heinous stories about managers with impressive resumes. In the end, it is the players who have to perform, and in 2003, it was the Sox players who didn't. If the Twins hire Manuel someday, labeling him a "Tom Kelly-type" maybe we'll be able to see how different players perform for him.

I am beginning to think that Ozzie Guillen, with Joe Nossek retained as the bench coach, might be the best way to go.

JJAustin69
10-24-2003, 12:05 PM
I am wary of breaking in another manager at the big league level. Ozzie is just too much of an unknown quantity for my taste. Gaston has a World Series resume and respect from players.

TDog
10-24-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by JJAustin69
I am wary of breaking in another manager at the big league level. Ozzie is just too much of an unknown quantity for my taste. Gaston has a World Series resume and respect from players.

I'm surprised no one has questioned the wisdom of hiring a manager from the coaching staff of a Marlins World Series team.

steff
10-24-2003, 12:14 PM
Manager...?


Thrid Base coach. HUGE difference, IMO.

davenicholson
10-24-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by steff
Manager...?


Thrid Base coach. HUGE difference, IMO.
Steff,
I think that maybe TDog was advising a little caution about hiring a manager away from the coaching staff of a Marlins World Series team, based on the past experiences we Sox fans sufferred after the last such hiring!

After reading my own post, I can just hear Sister Mary Desideria say, "That's a run-on sentence, mister!"

MarqSox
10-24-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by TDog
I'm surprised no one has questioned the wisdom of hiring a manager from the coaching staff of a Marlins World Series team.
Do you guys really think hiring Manuel, overall, was a bad decision? He definitely needed to go, but for the first four years he was here, I would argue that he did a good job. I won't call it successful -- the Sox haven't had a successful manager since Pants Rowland -- but he did OK, IMO. Anytime you average 83 wins a season over a 6-year span, you haven't done THAT bad a job ...

SoxxoS
10-24-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Do you guys really think hiring Manuel, overall, was a bad decision? He definitely needed to go, but for the first four years he was here, I would argue that he did a good job. I won't call it successful -- the Sox haven't had a successful manager since Pants Rowland -- but he did OK, IMO. Anytime you average 83 wins a season over a 6-year span, you haven't done THAT bad a job ...

It was pretty bad with the amount of talent. More importantly, WHEN Jerry got those wins. It was either too late, or against meaningless competition (minus the 2000 season). It's a lot easier to get wins in September when your team is out of the race (see 2001, 2002) than when they are in it (see 2003). He was a horrible manager.

I voted for Gaston, just because you can't argue with the 2 championships. That's it. He has been to the show, so he had to know how to handle talent.
Ozzie could be Tony Pena...or he can be a guy that just gets on everybody's nerves way too quickly.

maurice
10-24-2003, 02:33 PM
I was never a JM fan. I gave him the benefit of the doubt early, since I knew little about him, but his handling of the pitching staff and lying about players' roles wore thin pretty quickly. I have little doubt that these factors cost the Sox many wins over JM's tenure and cost the Sox a playoff appearance this season.

Realist
10-24-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Do you guys really think hiring Manuel, overall, was a bad decision? He definitely needed to go, but for the first four years he was here, I would argue that he did a good job. I won't call it successful -- the Sox haven't had a successful manager since Pants Rowland -- but he did OK, IMO. Anytime you average 83 wins a season over a 6-year span, you haven't done THAT bad a job ...

I think hiring Manuel was a great decision. He showed tremendous patience with the young players and allowed them to gain confidense. I also knew that he should only last a couple of years because although he may be able to nurture young talent, I don't think he has what it takes to win a World Series. So far I seem to be fairly correct in that prediction.

Rocklive99
10-24-2003, 03:49 PM
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but if the Marlins win tomorow night and win it in 6 (or even take it in 7), do you guys think there is a chance that Torre would be gone?

The_Floridian
10-24-2003, 04:06 PM
I still say Gaston is the man for this job. I looked up his managerial record, and in his first four seasons with the Blue Jays, the team finished 1st, 2nd, and then won two World Series.

To me, this says that Gaston is the man for a team that already has talented veterans but hazy focus. Cito knows how to win with winners, and that is exactly what the White Sox need. When people say that he was simply managing a team in Toronto that already had a ton of talent, that just proves the point.

Hire Cito.

As for the post about Joe Torre...

Yes, he is gone if the Yankees lose. Possibly voluntarily. Steinbrenner has been on the warpath all year. He's got three coaches in his crosshairs already, even if they win. But if they lose, Torre will either be fired, or decide that he's so tired of being told off in public by the boss that he'll just skip town.

ode to veeck
10-24-2003, 04:51 PM
Steinbrowbeater blows away Reinsdork in terms of results and even in keeping his old ball park, but he's an idiot to push Torre out of the nest ... Torre's managerial stats with the Yank-Mes (even without a ring this fall) are already bbetter than several in the HOF as managers

I whole heartedly agree with Floridian's post on Gaston as Sox skipper

Daver
10-24-2003, 06:36 PM
If the Sox hire Ozzie,all I can say is I hope they saved Bev's shoes for him,he'll need them.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/Bev's%20Shoes.jpg

Nick@Nite
10-24-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Rocklive99
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but if the Marlins win tomorrow night and win it in 6 (or even take it in 7), do you guys think there is a chance that Torre would be gone?

Not a stupid question... I was thinking the same thing :D: ...

IF that were to happen, Torre would have to be a viable candidate for the vacant Sox managerial position (providing he wishes to stick around and not take any time away from the game).

vegyrex
10-24-2003, 10:07 PM
I want Gaston. Enough of this rookie manager crap.

soxtalker
10-24-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Nick@Nite
Not a stupid question... I was thinking the same thing :D: ...

IF that were to happen, Torre would have to be a viable candidate for the vacant Sox managerial position (providing he wishes to stick around and not take any time away from the game).

Or doesn't head on up to Boston, assuming Little is shown the door.

TDog
10-24-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by davenicholson
Steff,
I think that maybe TDog was advising a little caution about hiring a manager away from the coaching staff of a Marlins World Series team, based on the past experiences we Sox fans sufferred after the last such hiring!

After reading my own post, I can just hear Sister Mary Desideria say, "That's a run-on sentence, mister!"

Thanks. That's what I was meaning to say. I was making a quick post on my way into work. That's still no excuse to be unclear.

Paulwny
10-25-2003, 12:47 PM
If Torre loses the yank job he'll retire.

harwar
10-25-2003, 12:58 PM
I'm not all that wild about Gaston or Ozzie.I don't see why we can't try Pudge Fisk,if we are just going to throw someone out there with no experience or someone no one else appears to want.I guess uncle jerry would never agree to that one though.

VeeckAsInWreck
10-25-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by vegyrex
I want Gaston. Enough of this rookie manager crap.

Vegyrex,

You took the words right out of my keyboard. Those are my exact feelings. Also, Floridian made an excellent point about Cito's track record. If Big Frank is around, Gaston will get the most from him, as opposed to Ozzie who Frank only knows as a teammate.

I voted for Gaston.


P.S. Everyone should know what happened the last time we hired a Florida coach.

:jerry
"Yup"

wassagstdu
10-25-2003, 04:52 PM
What this team needs to win is more of what Ozzie brought to the game -- a sort of smart, loose intensity that is always asking "What can I do now to win?" Don't lose the "big ball" but add a lot more "little ball", doing the smart thing at the plate, on the bases (Well, don't think so hard you miss the hidden ball ...), in the field. If Ozzie could bring that attitude to this team they could win -- with a little more speed. Question is could he bring it better as manager or coach??

Gaston plus Ozzie, I take Gaston as mgr. Either one by himself, I take Ozzie.

MarkEdward
10-25-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by wassagstdu
What this team needs to win is more of what Ozzie brought to the game -- a sort of smart, loose intensity that is always asking "What can I do now to win?" Don't lose the "big ball" but add a lot more "little ball", doing the smart thing at the plate, on the bases (Well, don't think so hard you miss the hidden ball ...), in the field. If Ozzie could bring that attitude to this team they could win -- with a little more speed. Question is could he bring it better as manager or coach??


Was Guillen really a "smart" ballplayer? He could never take a walk. Although he did have more than 150 career stolen bases, his stolen base percentage was only around 60%.

I don't want this team turning into a bunch of free swingers who don't know when to steal a base.

Daver
10-25-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Was Guillen really a "smart" ballplayer? He could never take a walk. Although he did have more than 150 career stolen bases, his stolen base percentage was only around 60%.

I don't want this team turning into a bunch of free swingers who don't know when to steal a base.

There was no discipline to any part of Ozzies game as a player,he was an undisciplined Fielder,hitter,and baserunner.Him being named as the manager would be a disaster of Beavington proportions.

soxtalker
10-25-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by harwar
I'm not all that wild about Gaston or Ozzie.I don't see why we can't try Pudge Fisk,if we are just going to throw someone out there with no experience or someone no one else appears to want.I guess uncle jerry would never agree to that one though.

I'm a big Fisk fan, but Ozzie has a lot more qualifications at this point to be manager. He has made it a point to work as a coach and, thus, to learn the things that are important for being a manager. Fisk has done something in the Boston organization, but I don't think that it was anywhere close to the sort of things that Ozzie has been exposed to in Florida.

As you say, even if Fisk were qualified, he wouldn't get JR's ok. But it also isn't clear to me that Fisk would want to manage. In addition to issues involved in dealing with the players, he'd also have to face the media each day.

Nick@Nite
10-25-2003, 05:45 PM
... but Britt Burns thinks Ozzie would be better off managing a young team versus the veteran club already in place.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20031020&content_id=587940&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha

Burns also crossed paths with Ozzie Guillen, the former White Sox shortstop currently coaching third for the Marlins, who is expected to be a strong candidate for the managerial opening once the World Series comes to a close. In Burns’ estimation, Guillen might be better suited for a young, rebuilding team, as opposed to the veteran squad general manager Kenny Williams has talked about bringing back.

“That would be a perfect opportunity to let a young manager grow with a young ball club,” said Burns of Guillen. “But the White Sox are in a situation where they are good enough to win the Central Division.

“For me, you need to bring experienced leadership into the ball club and take a shot at winning while you have that collection of players in house,” Burns added.


Btw, Burns also expressed surprise that Leyland isn't interested in managing the Sox.

“I thought Jim might be attracted to the White Sox job,” Burns said of Leyland. “But he seems to be enjoying what he’s doing now, and it allows him more family time.

If it comes down to either Cito or the Oz... I'll take Cito (but would prefer Joe Torre -- Go Fish!)