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View Full Version : Marlins in the WS... a good thing?


Iwritecode
10-23-2003, 02:59 PM
This may have been discussed already and I missed it but I've been thinking about this the past few days. Is it really a good thing or not that the Fish are in the WS. Again...

On one hand, it's pretty embarassing that a team that's only been around for about a decade has been to the WS twice as many times as the entire city of Chicago has in the last fifty years. Plus, they did it with half the payroll of any team they faced in the playoffs. What the hell is wrong with out team that they can't do the same thing?

On the other hand, they are showing the world what can happen when you have a young, energetic team that knows how to put the ball in play, run the bases, play good defense and has good (but not exactly dominant) pitching.

In a perfect world, JR and KW would watch this team and realize that more fundamentally sound team has a much better chance than a team that can only pound the ball (into DP's) and run station to station on the bases. I'm not saying they should completely overhaul the entire team but try to mold them to fit this description a little more.

My only worry is that if the Marlins do win the WS, JR will be completely convinced (if he's not already) that it is possible to win without spending much money.

StepsInSC
10-23-2003, 03:04 PM
Its a great thing. They're the best team in the NL and deserve to be there.

This isn't directed towards the starter of this post, but I'm tired of all the hardcore traditionalists who can't accept things like this. Bob Costas said it best, that baseball will be much better off when those traditionalists, who refuse to accept change, die off.

edit:
Re-reading your post I realize now you were talking more about in relation to Chicago baseball, so uh...oops.

Iwritecode
10-23-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Its a great thing. They're the best team in the NL and deserve to be there.

This isn't directed towards the starter of this post, but I'm tired of all the hardcore traditionalists who can't accept things like this. Bob Costas said it best, that baseball will be much better off when those traditionalists, who refuse to accept change, die off.

edit:
Re-reading your post I realize now you were talking more about in relation to Chicago baseball, so uh...oops.

I agree that the Marlins earned their trip to the WS. I think it's great. Especially if they beat the Yankees too.

I just figure that it will do one of two things. Either embarrass the Sox brass enough that a decade-old team has done better in the past 5 years than the Sox have in the last fifty (doubtful), or convince them that it is possible to win with a low budget and we'll continue to be stuck with a payroll of 60 million and a lot of second-place finishes until JR either dies, retires or sells.


Sorry, I probably just repeated my last post with different words.

Whatever... :gulp:

Thunderstruck30
10-24-2003, 01:00 AM
Better them that the Cubs.

MiamiSpartan1
10-24-2003, 04:08 AM
It's a GREAT thing! Funny to hear that from Costas, tho, 'cause he pitched a fit in 97 when we won saying we did not deserve to be there being the Wild Card... :?:

dougs78
10-24-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
... but I'm tired of all the hardcore traditionalists who can't accept things like this. Bob Costas said it best, that baseball will be much better off when those traditionalists, who refuse to accept change, die off.

I don't really understand what you are hoping for them to accept? What changes are you speaking of that hardcore traditionalists refuse to accept?

thepaulbowski
10-24-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
I don't really understand what you are hoping for them to accept? What changes are you speaking of that hardcore traditionalists refuse to accept?

They don't like the more teams, wildcard playoff teams, divisional series play, etc. "Things aren't like they used to be" type people.

LuvSox
10-24-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
They don't like the more teams, wildcard playoff teams, divisional series play, etc. "Things aren't like they used to be" type people.

Screw those people. "The way it used to be"? Ok, start from the beginning. No gloves, only act like gentlemen. People that want to watch the game will line up around the field, attendance could be around 500. Now that's tradition. :smile:

idseer
10-24-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by LuvSox
Screw those people. "The way it used to be"? Ok, start from the beginning. No gloves, only act like gentlemen. People that want to watch the game will line up around the field, attendance could be around 500. Now that's tradition. :smile:

well, here's a question.

are all changes good and progressive? no matter what idiot makes them? hey! i have an idea. ballgames are too long. it's been talked about for years. let's make the game 6 innings long. that should be enough to determine a winner. and while we're at it, why shouldn't players be allowed to reenter games? where is the commandment about once used you can never play in that game again? or dh's for all positions?

how much can something be changed before you're allowed to say the game has turned to crap? if you discover 30 years from now that there's a machine doing the pitching and 3 guys doing all the hitting in a round baseball 'diamond' is it possible you'll say the game has been ruined?

Brian26
10-24-2003, 10:34 AM
I can't imagine how ANYONE could complain about the Marlins and their unbelievable effort to get to the World Series this year.

What makes this even more special for them is that they did it the RIGHT way. That team is filled with a bunch of kids who have pretty much grown up together in that organization (with the obvious exception of Rodrgiuez). Unlike the '97 team, it's not filled with high-priced off-season free agent signings. This team did what the Expos of the 90's never could quite do. I give them their props. It's absolutely a good thing for baseball that Marlins pulled this off. There's nothing embarrassing about having the Wild Card team go to the Series - it's the reason this playoff format was adopted. If you're going to complain that the 4th best team in the league (although they may have the 2nd best record) can get to the Series, then you should just scrap the format altogether. It's a great story for Florida. And after they beat the Scrubs this year, I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for the Fish.

Brian26
10-24-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by MiamiSpartan1
It's a GREAT thing! Funny to hear that from Costas, tho, 'cause he pitched a fit in 97 when we won saying we did not deserve to be there being the Wild Card... :?:

Costas' only legitimate complaint from '97 and also the 1995 postseason was that the games were starting too late. One extra-inning game (Cleve. v. Boston I think) went well past midnight on the east coast. More money is made on television with these night games in the postseason, but start times should be at 7:05 whenever possible.

ode to veeck
10-24-2003, 11:07 AM
(Playoff) changes vs traditionalist' views: baseball had to do something for marketing and revenue generating. The current formula seems to have succeeded without getting to the point of the NHL and the NBA where like half the teams in the league enter the playoffs.

With three divisional races there's still that "gotta play all 160+ games to get in" mentality with the nice addition that one wild card team also gets in, typically a team with a better record than one of the division leads, more often than not.

Having two rounds of playoff series before the WS has added lots of fan and media interest and generates substantial revenue for the league and playoff teams over a slightly longer period of time. Given that they only have three rounds total, I think they should extend the opening round to 7 games to slightly extend the benefits without having to add more teams to the mix, plus balance the challenge of getting through each round

Staying with only 1 or 2 rounds of playoffs just misses so much of the marketing and revenue opportunity ---like by close to a third (if the trade off of more interest by WS is more or less offset by more cities with high interest in earlier rounds)

Seems like baseballs current formula is close to being about the right balance--not likely to be challenged anytime soon to expand to more cities and divisions (& need to change the formula)

kraut83
10-24-2003, 12:35 PM
Screw the "Baseball Purists" who want to go back to 2 divisions and no DH. I think the current format is great, and both wild card teams definitely deserved to be there this year, especially the Marlins.

However, I don't like the rumblings of adding another wild card from each league and giving the 2 teams with the best record a first round bye. As Ode mentioned, things would become too watered down though not to the extent of basketball & hockey. This year the 2 additional wild cards would have been Seattle & Houston. 2 teams that blew key games throughout September, and played themselves out of the races. IMO, by doing that, neither team deserved to be there.

doublem23
10-24-2003, 02:39 PM
The only thing that scares me about the Marlins winning the World Series is that Steinbrenner is going to go beserk and offer Colon an inordinate amount of money.

SIGN THE DOTTED, LINE, BARTOLO! For ****'s sake!

Oh, and yeah, go back to 2 divisions... This is ridiculous... Isn't the point of playing 162 games a year so that you don't need to have a ridiculously drawn out play-off? Why don't we just turn into the NBA where over half the teams make the postseason?

Iwritecode
10-24-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
The only thing that scares me about the Marlins winning the World Series is that Steinbrenner is going to go beserk and offer Colon an inordinate amount of money.

SIGN THE DOTTED, LINE, BARTOLO! For ****'s sake!

Meanwhile JR is saying:

That's ok, we don't need to spend a lot of money to win the WS. The Marlins did it, why not us???

MarkEdward
10-24-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I can't imagine how ANYONE could complain about the Marlins and their unbelievable effort to get to the World Series this year.

What makes this even more special for them is that they did it the RIGHT way. That team is filled with a bunch of kids who have pretty much grown up together in that organization (with the obvious exception of Rodrgiuez).

For what it's worth, using last night as an example, only two of the nine Marlins' starters were actually drafted or signed by the Marlins. Only one of their bench players was originally drafted by the Marlins. The Marlins only drafted one of their starters, and only one regular reliever.

Your point still stands, though. I would agree that the Marlins "developed" Lowell, Lee, Penny, Willis, among others.

Dadawg_77
10-24-2003, 03:29 PM
Hey how many of these guys came from dismantling of the 97 team?

MarkEdward
10-24-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Hey how many of these guys came from dismantling of the 97 team?

Um, just glancing at their roster, so I may miss a few, but...
Braden Looper came to Florida in the Renteria deal (along with Armando Almanza and Pablo Ozuna).
Brad Penny was involved in the Mantei deal.
Derrek Lee was involved in the Kevin Brown deal.
A.J. Burnett was involved in the Al Leiter deal.

Dave Dombrowski was put in an extremely crappy situation, and he really made the best of it.