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crector
10-23-2003, 03:46 AM
Take it that the general consensus here is that both Koch and Konerko are both pretty much washed up and won't ever again amount to anything more than a drain on the payroll?

jabrch
10-23-2003, 06:09 AM
Lots of people are obviously down of both of them...but there is a slight bit of optimism on both of them. Nobody expects Konerko to be worth the 8mm, but some of us say that rather than waive him and eat the 8mm, we might as well keep him around and see if we can get him back to a .280 hitter. Koch has a better chance of being serviceable. He was overworked his last two years in Oakland/Toronto. Beane knew it - and that's why he dumped him. He got lots of rest this year and actually had some velocity back towards the end of the year. He may recover to be a decent setup guy next year.

That said, I expect both to be nothing more than a drain on payroll, and would be pleasantly surprised if we can convert either into a shell of what we expected them to be or if we could trade them and get anything at all in return that might help us.

hold2dibber
10-23-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Lots of people are obviously down of both of them...but there is a slight bit of optimism on both of them. Nobody expects Konerko to be worth the 8mm, but some of us say that rather than waive him and eat the 8mm, we might as well keep him around and see if we can get him back to a .280 hitter. Koch has a better chance of being serviceable. He was overworked his last two years in Oakland/Toronto. Beane knew it - and that's why he dumped him. He got lots of rest this year and actually had some velocity back towards the end of the year. He may recover to be a decent setup guy next year.

I actually have more faith in PK's returning to form than Koch. I just don't have a lot of faith in an over worked power pitcher who looses his velocity making a comeback (see Thigpen, Bobby and Wetteland, John for a couple of examples). PK's problems, on the other hand, baffle me to this day.* He was great for about 6 weeks this year, but sucked horribly for the rest of the year. In any event, I have faith in his physical ability to be a productive major league hitter. A hitter worth $8 mm/year, you ask? Hell no. But if he returns to his .280 avg., 28 HRs, 90 RBI, .850 OPS level, at least he'd help the team win.



* I realize that some believe that Konerko has a hip injury. But at this point, there is absolutely no publicly available information to confirm what, in my mind, is no more than an Internet rumor at this point.

thepaulbowski
10-23-2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Lots of people are obviously down of both of them...but there is a slight bit of optimism on both of them. Nobody expects Konerko to be worth the 8mm, but some of us say that rather than waive him and eat the 8mm, we might as well keep him around and see if we can get him back to a .280 hitter. Koch has a better chance of being serviceable. He was overworked his last two years in Oakland/Toronto. Beane knew it - and that's why he dumped him. He got lots of rest this year and actually had some velocity back towards the end of the year. He may recover to be a decent setup guy next year.

That said, I expect both to be nothing more than a drain on payroll, and would be pleasantly surprised if we can convert either into a shell of what we expected them to be or if we could trade them and get anything at all in return that might help us.

Maybe they canwork a deal with the Dodgers.....

soxtalker
10-23-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by crector
Take it that the general consensus here is that both Koch and Konerko are both pretty much washed up and won't ever again amount to anything more than a drain on the payroll?

I have much more faith in PK than Koch, though that would probably be by far the minority view on this board.

The reason that I'm less enthusiastic about Koch are the comments we heard from Oakland fans right after the trade. The comments I saw (again, these were fans, not Oakland management) told us to beware, as he always had control problems and would take the game to the edge. If he does regain his velocity, that's what I expect will be the upside.

On PK, I also recall that it was only a little over a year ago that he was hitting lights out. I don't know what adjustments it takes to get him to return to that form, but he has shown signs of doing that. Do I wish we weren't paying him $8 million? Of course. That makes him even less attractive in a deal if his hitting were to be corrected.

So, I guess that what I'm saying is that I think that the upside potential of PK is greater than that of Koch. Do we have problems with both of them having high salaries? Yes.

Paulwny
10-23-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
[B

The reason that I'm less enthusiastic about Koch are the comments we heard from Oakland fans right after the trade. The comments I saw (again, these were fans, not Oakland management) told us to beware, as he always had control problems and would take the game to the edge. If he does regain his velocity, that's what I expect will be the upside.

[/B]

This is why many Jay's fan started calling him Wild Bill Hicoch.

Deadguy
10-23-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by crector
Take it that the general consensus here is that both Koch and Konerko are both pretty much washed up and won't ever again amount to anything more than a drain on the payroll?

I don't know what these two will do next year, but the bottomline is that both fell flat on their faces this past season, and failed miserably.

We knew coming into this season that we'd be fighting it out for a playoff position, considering our talent level, our payroll, and our 81-81 record last year.

We needed everyone to at least perform at 2002 levels, if not improve.

Esteban exceeded everyone's expectations. Frank and Carlos both improved. Jose remained about the same. Magglio and Bartolo dropped off a bit, but still had solid seasons.

Both Konerko and Koch, however, were huge disappointments, and both deserve a large amount of the blame for this past season.

I don't know why they struggled (injuries, complacency, laziness, etc.). They just better get their acts together, work hard in the off season, and perform much better in 2004. They are among the highest paid players on the team, and they should be expected to perform at a level much higher than that of 2003.

poorme
10-23-2003, 11:11 AM
Most of you probably know this, but Konerko led the majors with 28 double plays! In only 440 AB's!

Risk
10-23-2003, 11:27 AM
As disappointed as I was in both Koch and Konerko this year, I not ready to completely write them off next year.

Granted, Konerko was nothing short of awful for 4 months, and Koch had a terrible year of epic/monumental proportions, I just don't think they should be written off. I mean, as much as I've criticized these two for their piss poor play on the field, I think it's important to remember that every player can have a bad year.

Notwithstanding that, do I think that Konerko and Koch should both take a pay cut? You better believe I do. At the very least, if both of them are going to be bad players, they may as well be team players and do what is good for the organization and the team and take a pay cut to free up some $ so that the Sox can go out and get another reliable veteran starting pitcher, b/c this damn Danny Wright experiment just has to end.

Risk

reilly
10-23-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Most of you probably know this, but Konerko led the majors with 28 double plays! In only 440 AB's!

At 8mm a year, it would at least be nice if Konerko would only account for one out per AB instead of two.

RichH55
10-23-2003, 07:33 PM
I have more faith in Koch for a number of reasons

1) He isn't the closer and isn't really being counted on all that much(aside from payroll) --> Anything we get out of him is gravy


PK is expected to be an everyday player and even if he post career numbers is still overpaid and is an even bigger drain on payroll

2) 1 year vs Multi year

So if Koch sucks, big deal, he's gone next year
PK is in a hole, and that hole gets deeper with everyday DP and wince of pain --> Over one year maybe not a big deal, but we aren't that lucky

3) Koch seemed to rebound somewhat last year, and since there was no major problem (ie no tommy john) he should come back to at least being "serviceable"
----> We have no idea why PK fell off the face of the earth, perhaps that hip injury didnt allow him to leg out infield singles anymore:)

soxtalker
10-23-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I have more faith in Koch for a number of reasons

1) He isn't the closer and isn't really being counted on all that much(aside from payroll) --> Anything we get out of him is gravy


PK is expected to be an everyday player and even if he post career numbers is still overpaid and is an even bigger drain on payroll

2) 1 year vs Multi year

So if Koch sucks, big deal, he's gone next year
PK is in a hole, and that hole gets deeper with everyday DP and wince of pain --> Over one year maybe not a big deal, but we aren't that lucky

3) Koch seemed to rebound somewhat last year, and since there was no major problem (ie no tommy john) he should come back to at least being "serviceable"
----> We have no idea why PK fell off the face of the earth, perhaps that hip injury didnt allow him to leg out infield singles anymore:)

1) Sorry, I don't buy it. They both take up a roster space and dollars that could be spent elsewhere. If either is not working out, you essentially have to make up a team with one less roster count. Or you decide to eat the contract.

2) You have a good point here. PK is signed for two years, Koch for one. But I don't see why that should give you more faith in Koch. Perhaps if you believe that he will perform better in order to get a good contract offer from someone the following year.

3) I would have said exactly the reverse. PK seemed to rebound last year. He raised his average tremendously during the second half, though he did tail off again toward the end. I don't know where you saw Koch's rebound, though they essentially shut him down (didn't allow him to pitch in anything close to a crucial situation).

duke of dorwood
10-23-2003, 07:50 PM
Konerko's lack of speed on the bases is not going to improve. I think Koch has more room to improve.

RichH55
10-23-2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
1) Sorry, I don't buy it. They both take up a roster space and dollars that could be spent elsewhere. If either is not working out, you essentially have to make up a team with one less roster count. Or you decide to eat the contract.

2) You have a good point here. PK is signed for two years, Koch for one. But I don't see why that should give you more faith in Koch. Perhaps if you believe that he will perform better in order to get a good contract offer from someone the following year.

3) I would have said exactly the reverse. PK seemed to rebound last year. He raised his average tremendously during the second half, though he did tail off again toward the end. I don't know where you saw Koch's rebound, though they essentially shut him down (didn't allow him to pitch in anything close to a crucial situation).


1) The role you are required to play is huge....if you suck and won't do a ton of damage then thats better.....though perhaps you are right as that not going to "faith"...So maybe I mean I like the Koch "situation" more

2) Contract years always help...plus he is less detrimental overall....there is at least a shot Koch can earn his money...as I've said a career year from Konerko still doesnt do that much for me

3) PK didn't exactly set the bar too high with his 1st half....his 2nd half pretty much had to be better....and struggling down the stretch...essentially having one good month...doesn't bode well

I think it was also mentioned that Koch seemed to get more velocity near the end of the year, which is part and parcel to his success......No one factor you can point to with PK to explain the terrible play....I hope PK does play well, but only so we can deal him