PDA

View Full Version : Internet Rumor: Bartolo Deal upped to 3 years 40mm


jabrch
10-22-2003, 12:44 PM
from 30 to 40...3.3mm per added into the deal. If he turns this down (13.33 per for 3 years) then I can't blame JR or KW. They made their best possible offer.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=citadel-2_192124_261&prov=citadel&type=lgns

"RHP Bartolo Colon reportedly now has a three-year, $40 million on the table as the White Sox have gone up from the $30 million deal that was offered the last week of the regular season. The organization wants to get something done with Colon before he declares for free agency and can be bid on by the Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees."

also interesting is

"--RHP Jon Garland is expected to sign a multiyear deal and avoid arbitration this spring. The two sides have started talking in the last week."

Glad to see us lock Garland in for 3 - 5 more years while he is young and developing.

A.T. Money
10-22-2003, 12:48 PM
Keeping Colon may be the difference whether or not I renew my season tickets or not.

Randar68
10-22-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
Keeping Colon may be the difference whether or not I renew my season tickets or not.

I'm glad they're making an effort. If he doesn't sign for that, he's got his heart set on NY or Boston. Not much the Sox can do. Hopefully, they use that $$$ wisely under that scenario.

voodoochile
10-22-2003, 01:15 PM
The question remains, what will they do with the money if they can't get Colon? Do they go after another big name pitcher, or sit on their hands and use the money to pay arbitration cases and young "developing" players?

VeeckAsInWreck
10-22-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
Keeping Colon may be the difference whether or not I renew my season tickets or not.

I'm with you on that one A.T., If the Sox reload for next season, I may be seeing you in sec. 161 again! :smile:

joecrede
10-22-2003, 01:22 PM
A word of caution. This is the same source that reported Kenny Williams would be fired in May I believe it was . . .

oheeoh...magglio
10-22-2003, 01:27 PM
If Colon doesn't resign with that offer on the table, I can't blame management, that offer of 13.3 mill a year is almost overpaying him as it is. All I can say is IF Colon doesn't resign, I REALLY hope we use all that extra money to sign some other needs in free agency.

JRIG
10-22-2003, 01:32 PM
For that kind of money, I'm honestly not sure I would'nt rather have Kevin Millwood.

Jjav829
10-22-2003, 01:36 PM
Bob Nightengale reported this last week. It's already been discussed. It's not really an internet rumor.

Offer to Colon increased (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25698&highlight=Colon)

mrwag
10-22-2003, 01:42 PM
Could it also be because of Cito Gaston's rumored requests to have the "core" of the team return before he'd sign up??

oheeoh...magglio
10-22-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by mrwag
Could it also be because of Cito Gaston's rumored requests to have the "core" of the team return before he'd sign up??

I think that we might actually want to win. I doubt we would go through all of this to sign Colon just to get Cito Gaston as manager.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-22-2003, 01:54 PM
If the Sox can't re-sign Colon, their chances of competing next year go down significantly. He won't be easily replaced at any price -- trades or free agent pickups. There really is no substitute for talent, especially for starting pitchers

Hell, I might reduce payroll to $50 million for opening day and look for some midseason pickups to add another $10 million during the season. This assumes of course the Sox are still in the hunt in June and July.

JRIG
10-22-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If the Sox can't re-sign Colon, their chances of competing next year go down significantly. He won't be easily replaced at any price -- trades or free agent pickups. There really is no substitute for talent, especially for starting pitchers


PHG -- Do you really think Millwood is not an acceptable substitute for Colon? He's not headed back to Philly and I think we could get him for the money we're offering Colon.

As a matter of fact, I'll go on the record in this post as saying I would rather the Sox sign Kevin Millwood than re-sign Colon.

Randar68
10-22-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
PHG -- Do you really think Millwood is not an acceptable substitute for Colon? He's not headed back to Philly and I think we could get him for the money we're offering Colon.

As a matter of fact, I'll go on the record in this post as saying I would rather the Sox sign Kevin Millwood than re-sign Colon.

To do that, the Sox would lose their 18th pick in the first round and get a pick (if NY or Boston sign Colon) as one of the last couple picks in the draft (Sandwich picks being a wash)

That said, for the same money, I'd rather have Colon. Hope he signs that offer. I doubt he'd get much more on the open market.

AsInWreck
10-22-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
PHG -- Do you really think Millwood is not an acceptable substitute for Colon? He's not headed back to Philly and I think we could get him for the money we're offering Colon.

As a matter of fact, I'll go on the record in this post as saying I would rather the Sox sign Kevin Millwood than re-sign Colon.

When was the last time a starting pitcher made a transition to AL and pitched at the level he pitched in the NL? I can think of pitchers who have done it the other way, but I'm having trouble thinking of any recent NL starting pitchers having success in the AL. I can think of plenty who went in to a tailspin. I'm not saying its impossible, but I'd rather keep Colon because we know he can pitch in the AL.

jeremyb1
10-22-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
PHG -- Do you really think Millwood is not an acceptable substitute for Colon? He's not headed back to Philly and I think we could get him for the money we're offering Colon.

As a matter of fact, I'll go on the record in this post as saying I would rather the Sox sign Kevin Millwood than re-sign Colon.

Millwood is problematic because his agent is Boras and early rumors said his most likely destination is Atlanta.

thepaulbowski
10-22-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
I'm with you on that one A.T., If the Sox reload for next season, I may be seeing you in sec. 161 again! :smile:


I'm keeping my tix with or without Colon. If they don't get him and put the money to use elsewhere, I can't argue with that. The Sox don't need to overpay for Colon.

spataro51
10-22-2003, 04:55 PM
You are absolutely right! they don't need to overpay for someone then you might get screwed in teh long run. Colon I think is worth the 3 yr 40 mil. the man is a work horse. If he turns it down, well then he just doesn;t want to be in chicago or he is greedy. If lose him to free agency fine lets go out and get millwood and also make a push to get ponson. WE would have a awsom rotation Loaiza, Buehrle, Milwood, Ponson, garland and maybe schoenweiss if ponson doesn';t pan out. BUT Colon is my first choice! The sox need to keep colon, both Alomars, Gordon, Sullivan and VAlentin because we won;t go after tejada.

MRKARNO
10-22-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The question remains, what will they do with the money if they can't get Colon? Do they go after another big name pitcher, or sit on their hands and use the money to pay arbitration cases and young "developing" players?

Livan Hernandez anyone?

Rotation: Buerhle, Hernandez, Loaiza, Garland. Schoenweis.

Maybe. But i couldnt care less about a 2b, SS or CF, I want to see KW get Pitching, pitching and more pitching

spataro51
10-22-2003, 05:15 PM
Livian H. would be awsome to have, but who do you think we would have to trade to get him? or do you think the expos will deny his club option for 6 mil since they are in a salary hole?

Mammoo
10-22-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
"--RHP Jon Garland is expected to sign a multiyear deal and avoid arbitration this spring. The two sides have started talking in the last week."

Glad to see us lock Garland in for 3 - 5 more years while he is young and developing.

What can we reasonably expect from Garland; 10...12...14 wins per year??? :?:

hold2dibber
10-22-2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Livan Hernandez anyone?

Yuck. Hernandez has been, at best, average over his career despite the fact that he: (a) has only pithced in the NL; and (b) has pitched for a substantial portion of his career in a great pitcher's park. He had a career year this year, but I'm awfully leery of fat, average pitchers who happen to have a career year in their contract year. Ponson falls into that category as well.

Dub25
10-22-2003, 05:53 PM
Everyone worried about Colon being overpaid. Hopefully we don't overpay for Garland. I know the knucklehead is still young but I don't think he will ever get it. I don't know what it's going to take to get him to stop throwing so many first pich changeups and go with his fastball. His fastball has great movement use it.

thepaulbowski
10-22-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
Everyone worried about Colon being overpaid. Hopefully we don't overpay for Garland. I know the knucklehead is still young but I don't think he will ever get it. I don't know what it's going to take to get him to stop throwing so many first pich changeups and go with his fastball. His fastball has great movement use it.

First off...he's only 24, I think a long term investment in him would pay off. Secondly, isn't the catcher or bench calling the pitchers? If there is poor pitch selection doesn't it usually fall into the catchers lap or the bench coach?

Randar68
10-22-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
First off...he's only 24, I think a long term investment in him would pay off. Secondly, isn't the catcher or bench calling the pitchers? If there is poor pitch selection doesn't it usually fall into the catchers lap or the bench coach?

Catcher calls them, but pitcher can shake off... Haven't noticed Garland saking off his catchers too often, though.

john2499
10-22-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
When was the last time a starting pitcher made a transition to AL and pitched at the level he pitched in the NL? I can think of pitchers who have done it the other way, but I'm having trouble thinking of any recent NL starting pitchers having success in the AL. I can think of plenty who went in to a tailspin. I'm not saying its impossible, but I'd rather keep Colon because we know he can pitch in the AL.

You forgot Pedro.

Daver
10-22-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Catcher calls them, but pitcher can shake off... Haven't noticed Garland saking off his catchers too often, though.

Olivo didn't start calling games until the season was almost over.

hold2dibber
10-22-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
Everyone worried about Colon being overpaid. Hopefully we don't overpay for Garland. I know the knucklehead is still young but I don't think he will ever get it. I don't know what it's going to take to get him to stop throwing so many first pich changeups and go with his fastball. His fastball has great movement use it.

Garland is a pretty good no. 4 starter - better than most in that slot. Plus, he's so young that there's still ample reason to think he'll improve into a no. 3 or 2 type of guy. In any event, the reason they're trying to sign him to a multi-year contract is to avoid arbitration. If they "overpay" Garland, it'll likely only be a mistake that costs them a few million. If they overpay Colon, it could be by ten times that (not that I'm against the current offer to Colon - I hope he takes it, but it is inherently risky to offer a pitcher a long term, big money contract).

jabrch
10-22-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
What can we reasonably expect from Garland; 10...12...14 wins per year??? :?:


yeah, something on the higher end of that spectrum - say 13-15 if the rest of the club is decent. But if we don't lock him for a while, we will risk losing him and having to start all over looking for a young pitcher. He has the upside to be a regular 15 game winner. I'd certainly rather have him than anyone in our farm system on the mound right now.

jabrch
10-22-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Catcher calls them, but pitcher can shake off... Haven't noticed Garland saking off his catchers too often, though.

I don't want my "knucklehead" SP to shake off my catcher - EVER. If it isn't a veteran SP, I want him just throwing exactly what is called by the C and the bench. Those are the guys who should be calling pitches. If it is a bad pitch selection, it isn't Garland's fault. He should NEVER need to shake off signs. If Olivo isn't experienced enough yet to call a good game, then someone from the bench should be doing it. No fault to Garland here...not from me.

Lip Man 1
10-22-2003, 07:35 PM
Mamoo asks: "What can we reasonably expect from Garland; 10...12...14 wins per year???

Don't you mean to ask 10, 12, 14 LOSSES per year?

Lip

JRIG
10-22-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mamoo asks: "What can we reasonably expect from Garland; 10...12...14 wins per year???

Don't you mean to ask 10, 12, 14 LOSSES per year?

Lip

I'd say, since wins and losses are very much dependent on offensive runs scored, if Garland pitches as well as he did this season he will have 13-15 wins if the Sox score a lot of runs, and 13-15 losses if the offense doesn't score a lot of runs.

Daver
10-22-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'd say, since wins and losses are very much dependent on offensive runs scored, if Garland pitches as well as he did this season he will have 13-15 wins if the Sox score a lot of runs, and 13-15 losses if the offense doesn't score a lot of runs.

Now that is some deep baseball wisdom talking.


:)

RKMeibalane
10-22-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'd say, since wins and losses are very much dependent on offensive runs scored, if Garland pitches as well as he did this season he will have 13-15 wins if the Sox score a lot of runs, and 13-15 losses if the offense doesn't score a lot of runs.

The Sox offense is another matter entirely. Someone needs to work with the players on "doing the little things," such as bunting or moving runners over by hitting the ball on the ground to the right side. This crap with Konerko and Ordonez hitting to into double-plays needs to stop. The same is true of Frank and Carlos swinging for the fences every time up. That approach wasn't much better.

If there is one thing that can, beyond the shadow of a doubt, be blamed on Jerry Manuel, it was that he did not teach his players how to play solid fundamental baseball. Why this was case, I don't know, but I'm hoping that the new manager can help the players re-learn some of the basics that they have forgotten.

batmanZoSo
10-22-2003, 09:36 PM
jabrch,

I don't see why he wouldn't take it. It's not like we're a chump team and he knows it. We just gotta get the most out of our players for ONCE.

I think Loaiza can maintain some of what he had last year, maybe win 14 games. Then if Buehrle goes back to being one of the best lefties in the game, we're set.

JRIG
10-22-2003, 09:44 PM
It's totally foolish to even try to predict wins and losses for an individual pitcher. Before this season, everyone and their mother were predicting 18-20 wins for Buehrle AND Colon. We know how well that worked out and neither of them pitched that far below expectations, with the exception of Buehrle early.

You can certainly attempt to predict ERA based on past performance, but wins and losses for pitchers is largely a crapshoot.

Daver
10-22-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
It's totally foolish to even try to predict wins and losses for an individual pitcher. Before this season, everyone and their mother were predicting 18-20 wins for Buehrle AND Colon. We know how well that worked out ans neither of them pitched that far below expectations, ith the exception of Buehrle early.

You can certainly attempt to predict ERA based on past performance, but wins and losses for pitcher's is largely a crapshoot.

BINGO!


ERA is a personal stat,but wins and losses are based on the performance of the entire team.

jabrch
10-23-2003, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
jabrch,

I don't see why he wouldn't take it. It's not like we're a chump team and he knows it. We just gotta get the most out of our players for ONCE.

I think Loaiza can maintain some of what he had last year, maybe win 14 games. Then if Buehrle goes back to being one of the best lefties in the game, we're set.

The only reason I can see that he wouldn't take it is if it is only about the $$ to him and he thinks the Yankees will enter into a bidding war with us and possibly Boston that NYY wouldn't lose for his services. If that is the case (and with Clemens retiring, Pettite a FA, Weaver sucking, Contreras looking better as a RP, Mussina aging, blah blah blah) then it would surprise nobody to see Steinbrenner give him 15mm per for 3 years. Other than that, I agree Batman. Bartolo would have no other real reason to turn down such a fair deal.

GoSox2K3
10-23-2003, 08:49 AM
2 of the offseason rumors I have seen on this website are 1) the Sox keep upping their offer to Colon (now 3yrs/40mil) and 2) the Sox are either cutting payroll or keeping it about the same.

Am I right in thinking that these both can't be right? If they are willing to pay Colon $13 million next year, can they make up for that elsewhere in payroll? How much did Colon make in '03?

If Colon doesn't accept $13mil/yr, does this mean the Sox are willing to spend that much on other free agents? I don't expect Reinsdorf to spend like Steinbrenner, but I keep hoping that he will spend enough to keep this team in playoff contention for '04.

dickallen15
10-23-2003, 09:03 AM
I would be willing to bet that if the $40 million offer is true, it is not all guaranteed, probably $10 million in incentives.

Randar68
10-23-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I would be willing to bet that if the $40 million offer is true, it is not all guaranteed, probably $10 million in incentives.

It will all be guaranteed, but everyone loves Jerry's deferred payment plans!!!! LOL!

MHOUSE
10-23-2003, 01:19 PM
It says something about the Sox if Colon won't pitch here for $13.3 mil a year. That's a dang good deal. If he doesn't take this offer then I can't blame management. They tried, but no one can compete with the Yankees.

batmanZoSo
10-23-2003, 10:30 PM
jabrch,

That's a possiblility, but how high could it go? I mean who would pay him 15 million dollars a year? I don't even think the Yankees would. From what I know, Colon seems to like it here and has some friends on the team now. I'm pretty optimistic that if the rumor is more than just that, he'll be back.