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BamaDoc
10-20-2003, 09:49 PM
Has Fisk ever expressed a desire to manage? Many times when I hear Ozzie mentioned Fisk is also included. I think he would strike fear into many a players heart. If you can get on the opposition for not running a ball out no doubt what he would say to some who play for us now. I have no idea how he could handle a pitching staff or clubhouse but I think he would be the high risk high reward manager. Great or clubhouse revolt depending on the makeup of the team.

Mammoo
10-20-2003, 11:06 PM
Carlton Fisk can take his ****ing Red Sox cap and manage in Boston when Grady Little gets fired! :angry:

steff
10-21-2003, 07:59 AM
Carlton will NEVER work for the White Sox as long as JR is in any way, shape, or form a part of them.

Fisk72
10-21-2003, 08:21 AM
Mammoo, I'm not even gonna quote you because you implying that he's a traitor is sacreligious. I can understand why it sucks that he hasn't had any involvement with the Sox since '93, but I think most, if not all of us, understand that it's all due to Reinsdorf being an *******. I don't care if I'm biased, since he was my childhood hero and still is today. However, I think the best thing the next owner could do (whenever JR leaves) is try to mend the burned bridges from the past...

Mammoo
10-21-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Fisk72
Mammoo, I'm not even gonna quote you because you implying that he's a traitor is sacreligious. I can understand why it sucks that he hasn't had any involvement with the Sox since '93, but I think most, if not all of us, understand that it's all due to Reinsdorf being an *******. I don't care if I'm biased, since he was my childhood hero and still is today. However, I think the best thing the next owner could do (whenever JR leaves) is try to mend the burned bridges from the past...

He's lucky to have such a loyal fan! Too bad he didn't take guys like you into consideration when he decided to be immortalized as a Carmine!

idseer
10-21-2003, 09:51 AM
i'm with fisk on this one.

TheRockinMT
10-21-2003, 11:18 AM
I would love to see Carlton Fisk manage the Sox. I loved the guy when he was in Chicago. I can still remember a game broadcast on TV some years ago when the Sox played the Yankees. The Yankees tried to score two runners (one was Dale Berra) on a bloop hit and the throw beat the lead runer and Fisk tagged both runners out in succession. I think they came in trying to bowl him over, but Pudge just pushed them aside and stood there like a conquering hero, which he was. His attitutde is what we need in a team leader.

TDog
10-21-2003, 11:56 AM
If Fisk were hired as Sox manager, it might only take a couple of seasons for everyone here to hate him. Being a great player is one thing. Being a great manager is quite another.

jortafan
10-21-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by TDog
If Fisk were hired as Sox manager, it might only take a couple of seasons for everyone here to hate him. Being a great player is one thing. Being a great manager is quite another.

Good point.

I could easily see Fisk as being the modern day equivalent of Ted Williams when he managed the Washington Senators.

steff
10-21-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
He's lucky to have such a loyal fan! Too bad he didn't take guys like you into consideration when he decided to be immortalized as a Carmine!


Fisk got screwed plain and simple. And if you think it was a easy decision to wear the Boston cap in, you are sadly mistaken. Carlton loves the Sox... and has done a LOT of charity work on his OWN time in the name of the Sox despite what they did to him.

I stand by him 100000%. He said all along if JR had just called him and apologized he would have worn the Chicago hat in. Jerry made NO attempts to mend the relationship.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-21-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by TDog
If Fisk were hired as Sox manager, it might only take a couple of seasons for everyone here to hate him. Being a great player is one thing. Being a great manager is quite another.

Off the top of their head, can anybody name a hall-of-fame ballplayer who went on to have an impressive managerial career? There can't be too many. Yogi Berra is the only one that comes to mind, and even he is a bit of a stretch.

I would fish elsewhere for a new Sox manager than the available pool of HOF players popular with (some) fans.

soxrme
10-21-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Carlton Fisk can take his ****ing Red Sox cap and manage in Boston when Grady Little gets fired! :angry:
You are totaly correct on this one. Whenever people mention how JR treated him and how upset he is at him, they fail to mention that he left Boston originally because they supposedly dissed him. Give me a break! He lives here, his kids grew up here and he puts that cap on in the HOF. Let him manage there :angry:

idseer
10-21-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Off the top of their head, can anybody name a hall-of-fame ballplayer who went on to have an impressive managerial career? There can't be too many. Yogi Berra is the only one that comes to mind, and even he is a bit of a stretch.

I would fish elsewhere for a new Sox manager than the available pool of HOF players popular with (some) fans.


i think bob lemon was a pretty fair manager.

not that i think one has anything to do with the other. fisk could either manage or not independant of how good a player he was.

he had great character as a player. whether he could impart that to a whole team is another question altogether.

pudge
10-21-2003, 12:49 PM
Wow, the number of Fisk threads is getting tiring. This subject has been hashed over about a hundred times. Do a search on past threads.

AsInWreck
10-21-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by soxrme
You are totaly correct on this one. Whenever people mention how JR treated him and how upset he is at him, they fail to mention that he left Boston originally because they supposedly dissed him. Give me a break! He lives here, his kids grew up here and he puts that cap on in the HOF. Let him manage there :angry:

My understanding was the Sox took advantage of some sort of filing error and ended up claiming him off waivers. He didn't choose to leave the Bosox, he had no choice.

As far as the comparison to Ted Williams, the main difference is Fisk was a catcher who pretty much ran the team on the field,I think he would be much more suited to managing. Of course, there isn't a rat's chance in hades that he'd work for Reinsdorf, so there's not much reason to think about it.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-21-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
My understanding was the Sox took advantage of some sort of filing error and ended up claiming him off waivers. He didn't choose to leave the Bosox, he had no choice.

As far as the comparison to Ted Williams, the main difference is Fisk was a catcher who pretty much ran the team on the field,I think he would be much more suited to managing. Of course, there isn't a rat's chance in hades that he'd work for Reinsdorf, so there's not much reason to think about it.

Actually, it wasn't the Sox who took advantage of a contract filing error, it was Fisk himself with a great deal of assistance from Marvin Miller and the MLBPA. He was declared a free agent by a labor arbitrator and the Sox simply outbid everyone else to pick him up before the 1981 season. In his book "A Whole Different Ballgame," Miller went to great lengths to explain exactly why Fisk was stupid and ungrateful for the work the MLBPA did on his behalf. If Miller, Yawkey, and Reinsdorf were all tarred as enemies by Carlton Fisk, at least Marvin Miller had the nads to stand up and call out Fisk for the same bullheaded behavior that poisoned every important relationship he ever had with both labor and management in his 20+ year MLB career.

**** Carlton Fisk, and besides, it's nothing but a pipedream he would ever work for the White Sox anyway. Let him keep pouting in Lockport.

doublem23
10-21-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
He's lucky to have such a loyal fan! Too bad he didn't take guys like you into consideration when he decided to be immortalized as a Carmine!

If I was Carlton, not only would I have gone into the Hall with a Red Sox cap on, I would have dropped my pants and wiped my ass with my White Sox jersey. I understand 100% why he's trying stay as far away from the South Side as possible.

:reinsy
Bah!

ode to veeck
10-21-2003, 02:11 PM
Off the top of their head, can anybody name a hall-of-fame ballplayer who went on to have an impressive managerial career? There can't be too many. Yogi Berra is the only one that comes to mind, and even he is a bit of a stretch.

Good question: How many are there, e.g. Frank Robinson, Ted Williams, Lemon, Yogi etc. Just naming those that made it as a player that later managed, I can't come up with too many, let alone any that stand out as highly successful. Lemon arguably tops Yogi's two pennants with two ALCS wins plus a WS win. Lou Boudreau won the '48 WS w/Indians among 16 seasons as mgr of Tribe, Wrong Sox, As, and Cubs.

Frank Chance would be the only one I can think that made HOF as player that you might call highly successfull as mgr, with 4 pennants and two WS in 8 years at the helm of the Cubs (including the all-important '06 loss to the White Sox), but that was in a galaxy far far away, long, long, long before the curses of Bambino and goat.

On a related note, Joe Tinker and Johnny Evers had a few mediocre seasons as mgrs of Cubs, Sox, and Reds, though Joe Tinker lead the Chicago Whales of the independent Federal League to 1st in 1915, playing in then brand new Wrigley Field. Unfortunately, the league folded after 1915 and the Cubs moved into Wrigley in 1916.

From the same era, Jimmy Collins lead the Red Sox to two AL crowns and one WS in 6 years 1901-'06. Both Chance and Collins were player-mgrs and their HOF elections as players were decades later.

Similarly, Joe Cronin was voted HOF as player '56 while his best days as player-mgr were at the Senators and Red Sox in 30s and 40s, where he lead them (on and off the field) to 2 pennants. From the same era, Bill Terry was elected HOF as a player in '54 for his 14 seasons and .341 lifetime BA in the 20s and 30s. He lead the Giants to 3 penannt and one WS '32-'41. Fred "Cap" Clark was voted in as a player by the VC in '45 for his .312 in 21 seasons. He also managed the Pirates to 4 penannts and one WS over 19 mostly player-mgr years 1897-1915. Gabby Harnett spent three of his many years as a Cubs player also as player-mgr, leading them to the penannt in '38, the year he picked up the reins mid-season. He was elected to the hall in '55.

In the pre-modern era, Cap "Pop" Anson was voted to HOF in '39 by the VC for his .333 lifetime BA in 27 years as a player. He lead the Chicago White Stockings (later to become the Cubs) to 5 NL titles in the 1880s (before there was a world series).

Others in the more mediocre part of the list include Rogers Hornsby who won one pennant in three years as the Cubs skipper. My father-in-law, who played single A ball with the Sox until he was injured, still has a letter from Hornsby from Rogers' recruiting days in Cubs mgmt system. Eddie Matthews and Ted Lyons did 3 uneventful years each as Braves and White Sox skippers in the 70s and 40s respectfully. Tony Perez has managed partial seasons a couple of times for Reds and Fish with no great results. Mel Ott did several mediocre seasons as the NY Giants skipper in the 40s.

Larry Doby managed the Sox in '78 but was voted in as a player (by VC who else) in '98 (so what?). George Sisler had a less than .500 mgr record of the St Louis Browns in the 20s before he was voted to HOF in '39.

Amoung today's successful managers some fairly remote possibilities for later HOF status include Torre and Pinella with 18 seasons and close to.300 career BA each, Torre likely to get in at least as a mgr after his YankMes run (Steinbrowbeater notwithstanding). Pinella got one mgr WS ring with '90 Reds.

Then if we go wayyy wayy back we find Clark Griffith, aka "the Old Fox", who lead the newly formed Chicago White Sox to the AL flag in 1901, his most notable mgr achievement in 20 years across various teams. He was voted in as "pioneer/executive" by the veteren committee in '46 (& not for his 237-146 W-L record as a starter for 20 years, including 6 20 game seasons in a row 1894-99).

Checking a little further, we find we missed a good example from the modern era, Red Schoendiesnst. Again, his HOF came after his managing days as he was voted in by the VC as a player in '89, while his best managing days were with the Lou Brock/Bob Gibson Cardinals in the mid 60s, who racked up two pennants and a WS win.

Barely a footnote to this topic is Cy Young who managed 6 uneventful games for the RedSox in '07.

The asterisk (& transition to next topic) in this thread is John McGraw, who won three WS and 10 penannts in 31 years as Giants skipper. He was voted in as mgr, though boasted a .334 lifetime BA over 16 seasons as a player.

On a related HOF trivial thread, the Dodgers place an amazing 6 different HOF members as managers: Ned Hanlon, Wilbers Robinson, Casey Stengel, Leo Durocher, Walter Alston, and Tommy LaSorda, though both the A's and YankMe's have more WS rings.

steff
10-21-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by soxrme
You are totaly correct on this one. Whenever people mention how JR treated him and how upset he is at him, they fail to mention that he left Boston originally because they supposedly dissed him. Give me a break! He lives here, his kids grew up here and he puts that cap on in the HOF. Let him manage there :angry:



Somebody doesn't have all their facts in order....

steff
10-21-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Let him keep pouting in Lockport.



Oh George... C'mon. He did nothing every other ball player did. He just got called on it. Still does not excuse the way he was treated in Cleveland.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-21-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by steff
Oh George... C'mon. He did nothing every other ball player did. He just got called on it. Still does not excuse the way he was treated in Cleveland.

There are hard feelings between Miller and Fisk. There are other ballplayers who never appreciated what the MLBPA did for them, but Fisk was one of only a handful that Miller singled out for his wrath. So in this respect, Fisk is in very select company. Not only did he piss off management for the only ballclubs he ever played for, he also pissed off labor, too -- even after they sprung him early for free agent riches.

Carlton Fisk pouts. IMO he has a right to pout about Cleveland, so we're in agreement about this. However there is plenty more that he pouts about that is entirely of his own creation.

Mammoo
10-21-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by steff
I stand by him 100000%. He said all along if JR had just called him and apologized he would have worn the Chicago hat in. Jerry made NO attempts to mend the relationship.

That's all well and good, but I repeat...

What about the fans who supported him? Did he take them into consideration or was it ALL about Reinsdorf?

Mammoo
10-21-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Wow, the number of Fisk threads is getting tiring. This subject has been hashed over about a hundred times. Do a search on past threads.

Oh, OK we won't talk anymore if it's bothering you :?:

steff
10-21-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
That's all well and good, but I repeat...

What about the fans who supported him? Did he take them into consideration or was it ALL about Reinsdorf?


Obviously so. He hired him. He fired him. And correct me if I'm wrong.. but where was the fan outcry when he got bent over.. ?

Boston fans loved and cheered him even more when he played there as a member of the Sox.

Call a spade a spade.. we're a group of "what have you done for me lately fans".

Mammoo
10-21-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by steff
Call a spade a spade.. we're a group of "what have you done for me lately fans".

Considering what we pay for PSL's (for my Beloved Bears), tickets, parking, hot dogs, beers, programs, sausage sammiches, etc, I think that's our right!

steff
10-21-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Considering what we pay for PSL's (for my Beloved Bears), tickets, parking, hot dogs, beers, programs, sausage sammiches, etc, I think that's our right!


That's my point. Carlton wasn't exactly at his best in his final days. Most of the fans of Chicago cheered his exit. And you think he owes them, us, something? He doesn't owe us squat!




PS.. sorry about the beloved Bears thing.. bless you poor soul :D:

Mammoo
10-21-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by steff
PS.. sorry about the beloved Bears thing.. bless you poor soul :D:

Thanks, Steff!!! :whiner:

AsInWreck
10-21-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Actually, it wasn't the Sox who took advantage of a contract filing error, it was Fisk himself with a great deal of assistance from Marvin Miller and the MLBPA. He was declared a free agent by a labor arbitrator and the Sox simply outbid everyone else to pick him up before the 1981 season. In his book "A Whole Different Ballgame," Miller went to great lengths to explain exactly why Fisk was stupid and ungrateful for the work the MLBPA did on his behalf. If Miller, Yawkey, and Reinsdorf were all tarred as enemies by Carlton Fisk, at least Marvin Miller had the nads to stand up and call out Fisk for the same bullheaded behavior that poisoned every important relationship he ever had with both labor and management in his 20+ year MLB career.



Thanks for the full story. As for Fisk's "enemy" list, I don't know much about miller, but reinsdorf and yawkey aren't exactly what you'd call admirable figures in baseball history. That reminds me, but am I the only one who thinks Tom Berringer's character in major league was based on Fisk?

pudge
10-21-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Oh, OK we won't talk anymore if it's bothering you :?:

Well this thread wound up spinning off into other issues, so it's okay... but the original question posed by this thread has been posted way too many times. I'm just saying, why don't people look through the threads a little.

ode to veeck
10-21-2003, 11:43 PM
Carlton wasn't exactly at his best in his final days. Most of the fans of Chicago cheered his exit.

Oh I don't know about that, many of us recognized it as yet one more ugly sign of JR's total lack of PR abilities.

While by June '93 Pudge had certainly dropped in his contributions from the batter's box, he was still the hard nosed competitor he'd always been ... and brought good experience as a back-up catcher and bench player to a young staff of SPs (Bere, Alvarez, Fernandez, McDowell).

I looked at the whole thing as pretty sloppy on the part of the Sox mgmt team (yet again) at the time--Fisk was certainly in the twilight of his career, but the whole thing just made the Sox organization seem pretty low, little did we know that JR and honchos would figure out a way to top this one and take all of MLB to a new low in the fall of '94 ...