PDA

View Full Version : Is Alomar the answer at 2B?


SouthSideHitman
10-19-2003, 01:23 PM
Everyone seems to assume that Robbie will probably be resigned and that that is a good thing, but my question is, why? If we compare his Sox numbers -.253 .330 .340- with his Mets numbers -.262 .336 .357- we see that he was a marginally worse hitter after the trade and that he really doesn't give you the kind of production that you'd like out of the top of the lineup. In fact, if you look at Jimenez's totals -.273 .349 .415- you'd see that he is an appreciably better hitter.

Many people point to Alomar's defense, but when you compare fielding percentages, Robbie's is .985 and D'Angelo's is .984. I don't think that there is anyway that you can say that Robbie made up for the runs he cost at the plate by committing two less errors in the field.

Finally I keep hearing about Alomar's good attitude in Chicago and how Jimenez was a slacker. While I can't comment on the effect each one had on the team and in the clubhouse, I can say that I noticed that Jimenez would occasionally dog it on grounders but Robbie was guilty of the same thing. I often saw Alomar jog out little nubbers that I thought he had a chance to beat.

So given all ths, why do we want to keep Alomar so badly? I mean besides the fact that we traded our young second basemen to Cincinnatti. I'm sure that this offseason there will be young and/or cheap free agent second baseman who could do the medicore job that Alomar has done for us while freeing up money to upgrade our pitching and/or resign other key free agents.

MRKARNO
10-19-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by SouthSideHitman
So given all ths, why do we want to keep Alomar so badly? I mean besides the fact that we traded our young second basemen to Cincinnatti. I'm sure that this offseason there will be young and/or cheap free agent second baseman who could do the medicore job that Alomar has done for us while freeing up money to upgrade our pitching and/or resign other key free agents.

OK, name some other FA 2B who will come for cheap and do a similar job.

I personally can deal with Alomar another year. It's not about desperately wanting him, it's about we dont need to create another hole for the team. If he signs for cheap, then it's definately worth keeping him. I'd rather see KW go after pitching than a 2B

voodoochile
10-19-2003, 01:30 PM
If the Sox are going to try to mostly keep this team together (as they are making noises about doing) then Alomar would be a fine re-sign at the right price, IMO. 2 years with a club option for a third under 10M total with the 3rd year tail loaded would be fine with me.

Besides, there were stories about Alomar bulking up a bit this off season and putting some serious time on the weight machine toward the end of the season. I realize it may have been contract talk, but if Robbie works hard to get himself in top shape, he should be able to generate more power and return to more "Robbie-like" numbers. Well, a guy can dream can't he?

Now they need to figure out what to do about CF...

FarWestChicago
10-19-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by SouthSideHitman
In fact, if you look at Jimenez's totals -.273 .349 .415- you'd see that he is an appreciably better hitter.Uh oh, another FOD. Here we go again. :smile:

TornLabrum
10-19-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by SouthSideHitman
In fact, if you look at Jimenez's totals -.273 .349 .415- you'd see that he is an appreciably better hitter.

Yeah, too bad there was that tiny little matter of his getting thrown out while running the bases on a regular basis.

jeremyb1
10-19-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Yeah, too bad there was that tiny little matter of his getting thrown out while running the bases on a regular basis.

Yeah, that became a major problem when he was thrown out for the 17th time early in the season. Its scary for me to think that many of you would have absolutely no problem with Jimenez if not for one or two base running mistakes. When someone asks you what makes a good baseball player, do you respond "I have to be confident he won't make foolish baserunning mistakes"?

Meixner007
10-19-2003, 01:57 PM
I can't believe that some people are arguing in favor of DJ. Do you remember what he was like??? You can't honestly say that he could turn the same kinds of DP's that robbie can, or even get to some of the balls robbie can? His range was horrible, he was a punk, and I'm glad to see him gone and never coming back. Every team he's played on has had the same reaction. The guy's a loser.

JRIG
10-19-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
I can't believe that some people are arguing in favor of DJ. Do you remember what he was like??? You can't honestly say that he could turn the same kinds of DP's that robbie can, or even get to some of the balls robbie can? His range was horrible, he was a punk, and I'm glad to see him gone and never coming back. Every team he's played on has had the same reaction. The guy's a loser.

Robbie is a good defensive player. But, he is the best I have ever, ever seen at making the easy play look very hard.

RedPinStripes
10-19-2003, 02:42 PM
Alomar is one of the smartest baseball players in thegame. By far the best baserunner on this team. And i cant belive he was actually compared to Jiminez. Probably the biggest dumbass in the game. Unless we can land Jose Vidro , I dont want to talk about any other 2b the n Robby.

JRIG
10-19-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Alomar is one of the smartest baseball players in thegame. By far the best baserunner on this team. And i cant belive he was actually compared to Jiminez. Probably the biggest dumbass in the game. Unless we can land Jose Vidro , I dont want to talk about any other 2b the n Robby.

Not even Luis Castillo?

RedPinStripes
10-19-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Not even Luis Castillo?

Ok, we can talk about him. He's OK :D:

OEO Magglio
10-19-2003, 03:00 PM
Yeah, that became a major problem when he was thrown out for the 17th time early in the season. Its scary for me to think that many of you would have absolutely no problem with Jimenez if not for one or two base running mistakes. When someone asks you what makes a good baseball player, do you respond "I have to be confident he won't make foolish baserunning mistakes"?
DJ is a dumb baseball player that simple, he cost the sox a couple of ball games by just making dumb mistakes, alot of ball games are won by doing the little things, like going from 1st to 3rd when you can, or scoring on a ball from 2nd when you have the chance, d'angelo didnt do any of these, and was a terrible fielder, I'm very happy he's gone.

SouthSideHitman
10-19-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
I can't believe that some people are arguing in favor of DJ. Do you remember what he was like??? You can't honestly say that he could turn the same kinds of DP's that robbie can, or even get to some of the balls robbie can? His range was horrible, he was a punk, and I'm glad to see him gone and never coming back. Every team he's played on has had the same reaction. The guy's a loser.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Jimenez is the answer at second either, all I'm saying is that we were probably better off with him than Alomar and would be better served by not signing Robbie if someone like D'Angelo Jimenez can put up better numbers than him.

You say that Alomar is so much better defesivly but they have the same fielding percentage. As for range, in 11 more innings than Robbie (for the the Sox) DJ had six more chances than Alomar which suggests about the same range. Besides that, Jimenez turned four more double plays and had four more assists. Everyone talks about how great a fielder Alomar is but I think that he's lost a lot of that in recent years and is coasting by on perception.

As for the clubhouse aspect, I've heard people from the Pads complain about DJ, but I don't remember him being a big problem with the Sox (and I could be wrong here). But it's not like Alomar was a saint either, nobody really sang his praises and I remember him dogging a lot of grounders.

As for replacements, I'm really not sure of what middle infielders are out there this year, but I'm sure that we could get a cheap kid or castoff veteran with a decent glove who would hit .260 with a .770 OPS for about league minimum rather than gamble a few million that Robbie will be for real this time.

RedPinStripes
10-19-2003, 05:07 PM
Take all you stats and throw them away. You can compare numbers all day with fielding % but that never shows where either one positions himself, turns quicker dp's running bases, throwing to the right base , ect. PLease never compare Jiminez to Alomar.

RichH55
10-19-2003, 05:11 PM
I think the case for Alomar goes to this:

1) He's cheap
2) Veteran(not a bad thing at the very least)
3) Does the "little" things (Not a bad thing at the very least)
4) No real viable alternatives at that cost
5) Promise

I like reason 5 the most......He was simply not happy in NY for a couple of years and it showed in his play

Coming to Chicago revitalized him, but better numbers is not just a switch you can flip on.....One motivated offseason and I think you see his numbers go up, and coupled with the other factors that makes him probably the best choice

jeremyb1
10-19-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Take all you stats and throw them away. You can compare numbers all day with fielding % but that never shows where either one positions himself, turns quicker dp's running bases, throwing to the right base , ect. PLease never compare Jiminez to Alomar.

Everyone seems capable of getting to that step where Alomar is a better baserunner, a better fielder, and an overall smarter ballplayer than Jimenez. That's fine. I happen to agree completely.

The problem is that everyone is skipping a step here. The argument that everyone puts forward is "Alomar is a smarter veteran that plays better defense therefore he is better than Jimenez". To accept that argument would be to accept that players are only evaluated in terms of three factors 1) defense 2) baserunning 3) fans opinions of the player's general competency and baseball knowledge. If this is the case, the White Sox need to lure Darren Lewis out of retirement and replace Maggs. Lewis plays better defense, is quicker and probably smarter on the basepaths, and he's been around longer than Maggs so his knowledge of the game is most likely greater.

The fact that a player is better than another player at one aspect of the game is meaningless in and of itself. Until someone at least attempts to evaluate the importance of defense and baserunning, the argument is a complete waste of time. You guys can scream "Alomar is better at defense, Jimenez is a loser" until your face turns blue and I can scream "Alomar can't hit, .260 with a mediocre on base percentage and no power to speak of is pathetic" until I turn blue in the face. I've explained in numerous threads in the past that I feel 4 to 5 base running blunders over the course of a season and somewhat less impressive defense and trumped by the difference between good production and average production offensively and that's as far as this discussion can ever get until someone else at least attempts to weigh in with similar analysis.

poorme
10-19-2003, 05:46 PM
I don't mind bringing Alomar back, but he can't hit. He should be paid accordingly. But KW probably doesn't realize this.

RedPinStripes
10-19-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Everyone seems capable of getting to that step where Alomar is a better baserunner, a better fielder, and an overall smarter ballplayer than Jimenez. That's fine. I happen to agree completely.

The problem is that everyone is skipping a step here. The argument that everyone puts forward is "Alomar is a smarter veteran that plays better defense therefore he is better than Jimenez". To accept that argument would be to accept that players are only evaluated in terms of three factors 1) defense 2) baserunning 3) fans opinions of the player's general competency and baseball knowledge. If this is the case, the White Sox need to lure Darren Lewis out of retirement and replace Maggs. Lewis plays better defense, is quicker and probably smarter on the basepaths, and he's been around longer than Maggs so his knowledge of the game is most likely greater.

The fact that a player is better than another player at one aspect of the game is meaningless in and of itself. Until someone at least attempts to evaluate the importance of defense and baserunning, the argument is a complete waste of time. You guys can scream "Alomar is better at defense, Jimenez is a loser" until your face turns blue and I can scream "Alomar can't hit, .260 with a mediocre on base percentage and no power to speak of is pathetic" until I turn blue in the face. I've explained in numerous threads in the past that I feel 4 to 5 base running blunders over the course of a season and somewhat less impressive defense and trumped by the difference between good production and average production offensively and that's as far as this discussion can ever get until someone else at least attempts to weigh in with similar analysis.

When you have a team full of dumb baseball players, you cant offord to have one as dumb as Jiminez. When you have a team set up to hit like the Sox were supposed to, a few guys who are great defensers , baserunners and can lay a bunt down are needed. And any day i'll say Robby is better then Jiminez. They dont even belong in the same arguement.

TornLabrum
10-19-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Alomar is one of the smartest baseball players in thegame. By far the best baserunner on this team. And i cant belive he was actually compared to Jiminez. Probably the biggest dumbass in the game. Unless we can land Jose Vidro , I dont want to talk about any other 2b the n Robby.

Comparing Jimenez to Alomar is like comparing Albert Einstein to Lenny from "Of Mice and Men."

voodoochile
10-19-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Comparing Jimenez to Alomar is like comparing Albert Einstein to Lenny from "Of Mice and Men."

Did you mean to say that Jimenez is Einstein to Alomar's Lenny, or did you screw up the phrasing? :D:

Tragg
10-19-2003, 10:27 PM
Alomar is a stopgap - that's okay, we can have a stopgap as a starter - for ONE position. Right now, we have stopgaps at 2b, SS and CF.

TornLabrum
10-19-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Did you mean to say that Jimenez is Einstein to Alomar's Lenny, or did you screw up the phrasing? :D:

I reversed the order unintentionally and didn't catch it.

hold2dibber
10-20-2003, 08:32 AM
I believe the following list is pretty close to a complete list of free agent (or possible free agent) second basemen this off season.

R. Alomar
C. Baerga
J. Cabrera (may be arbitration eligible and not a FA)
M. Cairo
L. Castillo
M. Grudzilanik (if option not exercised)
M. Loretta
P. Meares
L. Merloni
P. Reese (if option not exercised)
F. Vina (if option not exercised)
T. Walker
E. Young (if option not exercised)

I've also heard rumors that the Angels might non-tender Adam Kennedy.

So the only real name that jumps off the list is Castillo - but that's not going to happen. None of the other guys blows me away, although I do think Loretta is a solid baseball player. Assuming Castillo isn't coming here, I'd rank my top 5 in order of preference as follows (with the caveat that I haven't looked into this in much depth yet):

1. Loretta
2. Kennedy (if he's available)
3. Alomar
4. Walker
5. Vina

But I don't see a huge difference in overall quality from 1 to 5, so if I were running the show, price would have a lot to do with it. It wouldn't surprise me if Alomar were the cheapest of the bunch. And I'd rather pay him $5 mm over 2 years than pay Walker $12 mm over 3 years and save the $7 mm for a CF or pitching.

Hangar18
10-20-2003, 11:52 AM
Roberto Alomar IS NOT THE ANSWER at 2B. He will fill in Nicely
there til we can Find a SPEEDY, SwitchHitting Preferably, Guy who can hit at the TOP of the Order, Someone in the Ray Durham
mode (phillips for the Tribe is going to be good oneday, Durham Clone).

We need a Ray Durham type at 2b, hey wait a sec....
Didnt we Have Durham at 2b at one time???

A.T. Money
10-20-2003, 12:26 PM
I thought we were done talking about Jimenez.....

That guy was a disaster. Even little leaguers don't drop routine pop ups.

kraut83
10-20-2003, 12:40 PM
2B should be the least of the Sox concerns right now. If they can sign Robbie on the cheap, great! The focus should be on pitching CF, and something with a pulse in the dugout.

jeremyb1
10-20-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
I thought we were done talking about Jimenez.....

That guy was a disaster. Even little leaguers don't drop routine pop ups.

Routinely implies it happened more than once.

hold2dibber
10-20-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
Even little leaguers don't drop routine pop ups.

You haven't been going to the same little league games I've been going to! :D:

hold2dibber
10-20-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Routinely implies it happened more than once.

Just to be hyper-technical, he said used "routine" to describe the pop up Jimenez dropped, not to describe the frequency with which Jiminez dropped pop-ups (i.e., he dropped a routine pop-up, not he routinely dropped pop-ups).