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DrCrawdad
10-18-2003, 10:06 AM
:whoflungpoo

VOICE OF THE PEOPLE (LETTER)
Poor sports

Tom Sheridan
Published October 17, 2003

Mt. Prospect -- I heard from some Sox fans that they hoped the Cubs would fail in their bid to make the playoffs. At the time, I chalked it up to jealousy. But there is something more serious underlying.

When asked why, they echoed some of the same sentiments of the Sox fans that John Kass quoted in his Oct. 12 column, "South Side bar is serving up shots at Cubs." It seems as if the sportsmanship of some Sox fans is misdirected. Instead of cheering on a Chicago baseball team, some chose to root against it just because it wasn't their team. That is not being a fan. In my opinion, it is being a poor sport...

The Rest Of The Story... (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/chi-0310170110oct17,1,3653900.story)

http://www.disturbingauctions.com/gfx/assclown.jpg
TOM SHERIDAN

Huisj
10-18-2003, 10:27 AM
HOLY CRAP! THEY ACTUALLY PRINTED THAT IN THE PAPER???
what a worthless bunch of crap. I didn't think it could get any worse. this guy is a total moron. Rivalry between brothers?? ha, yeah right. If the sox and cubs are brothers, the parents are the worst two faced unfair people ever. sheesh, i've never heard worse hogwash than that.

GoSox2K3
10-18-2003, 10:38 AM
No surprise here: Another shameless slam on Sox fans by the Trib.

Note to Mr. Sheridan: The Sox WERE in the playoffs in 83, 93, and 2000 and just about EVERY Cub fan I knew refused to support them and rubbed it in when the Sox were eliminated. I bet there wasn't a single line written in the Trib about Cub fans being "poor sports". Talk about poor sports - Cub fans seem to think rooting against the other team should be totally one-sided.

I think we should write in to voice our opinion about this drivel.
Does anyone know the e-mail link to the Tribune to write in our complaint about this?

KingXerxes
10-18-2003, 10:39 AM
Okay - It's the offseason now, so let me take a position that I'm sure will have a lot of people on this board screaming and calling me "traitor" and other such names.

I have said a million times on these boards that I could not care less about the Cubs, that it's the White Sox I want to see succeed. Now that the playoffs are over for the northsiders, I must admit that way too many White Sox fans were (and maybe still are) way too bitter over the fact that - to a certain extent - the Cubs had some success.

The very fact that so many White Sox fans are thrilled, not because the White Sox did well, but because Cub fans are so dissappointed is kind of sad.......for us. I have tried to look back on archives and such to 2000, and I cannot find one single story about Cub fans rallying for Seattle and other such nonsense. Are we now looking for victories within other people's defeats? If so we're doomed.

There are way too many anti-Cub shirts at our ballpark, and not just when we're playing the Cubs. You can hardly have a conversation these days with other White Sox fans without that "wink wink nod nod" shot at Cub fans. And lately, some of the best White Sox fans I have known over the years are taking to making the most outlandish statements about baseball and the Cubs - it almost reeks of desperation.

We wonder why the Cubs draw and draw at the gate while losing, and we struggle to get 2 million when winning. Maybe it's easily explained by the fact that the White Sox fan base gets increasing protrayed (and many times justifiably so) as bitter. Damn, I've even seen a lot of posts here that talk about "real White Sox fans" not doing this, or not doing that. Who the hell are these people posting, and what makes them think they've cornered the market on what a "real White Sox fan" can or can't do?

I have an uncle who is 87 years old. He is the survivor of the Bataan Death March, and lives in a VA hospital. Being pretty much confined to bed, the only real thing he had to do this summer is watch the Cubs - he is a huge Cub fan, and contrary to most of the posting on these boards over the past weeks, he has forgotten more about baseball than many "real White Sox fans" will ever know. It was fun watching him wait for the games to start this summer, and I was able to sit with him through a few of them. He was like a little kid as the playoffs approached - it was just great to see. As the Cubs pulled their usual collapse, you could just see the dissappointment in my uncle.

Many of you on this board love to exist within that dissappointment, and that's pretty sad.

I now await my own execution from "real White Sox fans".

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 11:08 AM
And this was written after game 6 of the NLCS? In my opinion Cubs fans have no right to question Sox' fans sportsmanship for at least 5 years after that ugly night. What's worse, a couple random idiots who happen to buy a ticket at Comiskey, or thousands of seething a-holes assaulting one of their own fans?I tried to point that out by submitting a few statements, which were not in any way obscene or rude, to the tribune's fan's speak out message board, and they didn't print one of them.

Besides, what's wrong with rooting against the Cubs? That's what sports fans do, they root for certain teams, and they root against others. I'm sure you'll find plenty of Mets fans rooting against the Yankees in the WS.
Anyway, it's not like Sox fans were sending death threats and blaming a guy who dropped one foul ball for 8 runs and 4 losses.

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Okay - It's the offseason now, so let me take a position that I'm sure will have a lot of people on this board screaming and calling me "traitor" and other such names.

I have said a million times on these boards that I could not care less about the Cubs, that it's the White Sox I want to see succeed. Now that the playoffs are over for the northsiders, I must admit that way too many White Sox fans were (and maybe still are) way too bitter over the fact that - to a certain extent - the Cubs had some success.

The very fact that so many White Sox fans are thrilled, not because the White Sox did well, but because Cub fans are so dissappointed is kind of sad.......for us. I have tried to look back on archives and such to 2000, and I cannot find one single story about Cub fans rallying for Seattle and other such nonsense. Are we now looking for victories within other people's defeats? If so we're doomed.

There are way too many anti-Cub shirts at our ballpark, and not just when we're playing the Cubs. You can hardly have a conversation these days with other White Sox fans without that "wink wink nod nod" shot at Cub fans. And lately, some of the best White Sox fans I have known over the years are taking to making the most outlandish statements about baseball and the Cubs - it almost reeks of desperation.

We wonder why the Cubs draw and draw at the gate while losing, and we struggle to get 2 million when winning. Maybe it's easily explained by the fact that the White Sox fan base gets increasing protrayed (and many times justifiably so) as bitter. Damn, I've even seen a lot of posts here that talk about "real White Sox fans" not doing this, or not doing that. Who the hell are these people posting, and what makes them think they've cornered the market on what a "real White Sox fan" can or can't do?

I have an uncle who is 87 years old. He is the survivor of the Bataan Death March, and lives in a VA hospital. Being pretty much confined to bed, the only real thing he had to do this summer is watch the Cubs - he is a huge Cub fan, and contrary to most of the posting on these boards over the past weeks, he has forgotten more about baseball than many "real White Sox fans" will ever know. It was fun watching him wait for the games to start this summer, and I was able to sit with him through a few of them. He was like a little kid as the playoffs approached - it was just great to see. As the Cubs pulled their usual collapse, you could just see the dissappointment in my uncle.

Many of you on this board love to exist within that dissappointment, and that's pretty sad.

I now await my own execution from "real White Sox fans".



Is that you, Paul Sullivan? Just kidding>

doogiec
10-18-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Okay - It's the offseason now, so let me take a position that I'm sure will have a lot of people on this board screaming and calling me "traitor" and other such names.

I have said a million times on these boards that I could not care less about the Cubs, that it's the White Sox I want to see succeed. Now that the playoffs are over for the northsiders, I must admit that way too many White Sox fans were (and maybe still are) way too bitter over the fact that - to a certain extent - the Cubs had some success.

The very fact that so many White Sox fans are thrilled, not because the White Sox did well, but because Cub fans are so dissappointed is kind of sad.......for us. I have tried to look back on archives and such to 2000, and I cannot find one single story about Cub fans rallying for Seattle and other such nonsense. Are we now looking for victories within other people's defeats? If so we're doomed.

There are way too many anti-Cub shirts at our ballpark, and not just when we're playing the Cubs. You can hardly have a conversation these days with other White Sox fans without that "wink wink nod nod" shot at Cub fans. And lately, some of the best White Sox fans I have known over the years are taking to making the most outlandish statements about baseball and the Cubs - it almost reeks of desperation.

We wonder why the Cubs draw and draw at the gate while losing, and we struggle to get 2 million when winning. Maybe it's easily explained by the fact that the White Sox fan base gets increasing protrayed (and many times justifiably so) as bitter. Damn, I've even seen a lot of posts here that talk about "real White Sox fans" not doing this, or not doing that. Who the hell are these people posting, and what makes them think they've cornered the market on what a "real White Sox fan" can or can't do?

I have an uncle who is 87 years old. He is the survivor of the Bataan Death March, and lives in a VA hospital. Being pretty much confined to bed, the only real thing he had to do this summer is watch the Cubs - he is a huge Cub fan, and contrary to most of the posting on these boards over the past weeks, he has forgotten more about baseball than many "real White Sox fans" will ever know. It was fun watching him wait for the games to start this summer, and I was able to sit with him through a few of them. He was like a little kid as the playoffs approached - it was just great to see. As the Cubs pulled their usual collapse, you could just see the dissappointment in my uncle.

Many of you on this board love to exist within that dissappointment, and that's pretty sad.

I now await my own execution from "real White Sox fans".

I'm not sure what the definition of a real White Sox fan is, but based on the fact that every Sox loss, no matter how meaningless, kills me and every victory, no matter how meaningless, makes my day a little better, I think I probably am one.

However, I too have many good friends and even a few relatives that are "real Cubs fans". Not the drunken yuppies that move into Lakeview for a few years and adopt the Cubs because its cute to show fake loyalty, but real fans who have pulled for the Cubs year in and year out despite losing because the Cubs are their team. They go to the games and understand baseball as much or more so than most. Just as real Sox fans do.

Like you, I have one particular Cub fan relative for whom "wait til next year" is not a realistic option. Being a human being, I want my friends and family to be happy, especially when its not at my expense since the Sox choked in September. Therefore I would have been happier had the Cubs won, although I have to admit it was kind of amusing watching the drunken yuppies fake Cub fans cry.

For those of you "real Sox fans" who think that the Cubs losing somehow helps the Sox, I remind you that the Sox play in the same division as KC, Minn, Det and Cleve. Note the Cubs are not on that list. In addition, to make it to the World Series the Sox would also have to beat teams from the AL East and West divisions in the playoffs. Note the Cubs are not in either list.

For the six days that the Cubs play the White Sox, they are the enemy. However year after year it disgusts me to see divisional series, series that really mean something, with crowds half the size (and sometimes with half the intensity) of the Cubs/Sox series. It also disgusted me to see people walking around the Minn series in September wearing "Cubs Suck" T shirts. The Sox are playing the Twins for a postseason berth in September and fans are focused on the Cubs? Why?

The White Sox also have fake fans. Fans who never bother to go to games or watch on TV. They exist only to rip on Cub fans. They only go to the Cubs/Sox series because it gives them a chance to get drunk and fight. After the Cubs were eliminated, I was amazed to see "Sox fans" who I know don't really give a crap about the Sox, ripping on Cubs fans. Yet where were they during the Minnesota and KC series? No where to be found.

The commonly stated perception that all Cub fans know nothing about baseball is wrong. They certainly have more than their share of idiots, but so do we.

Unfortunately Sox fans partying at fact that the Cubs were eliminated only reinforces the concept that in Chicago the baseball world revolves around Wrigley. It also reinforces the Cub fan claim that Sox fans are classless idiots who know nothing about baseball. Remember, the Cubs did have the better season this year as of the first day of the post season. If you really hate the Cubs, ignore them.

White Sox fans should hold back on their celebrations until we win something important.

joecrede
10-18-2003, 11:55 AM
I despise the Cubs. Actively root against the Cubs. And offer no apologies for it.

Bitterness is celebrated on the south side that's what drew me to the Sox in the first place. :D:

adsit
10-18-2003, 11:57 AM
I'm sorry, I don't think it's "poor sportsmanship" to pull for one team over others. I think it's freedom of choice.

I haven't lived in Chicago for 16 years. For the most recent 6, I've lived around Boston. Does that mean I'm a poor sport because I'm not a Red Sox fan? I mean, after all, my civic pride, focus, duties and responsibilities lie here, not in Illinois. Yet, I was just as thrilled to see cold water thrown on Carmines fans as I was on Cub fans, for many of the same reasons.

My Boston friends merely think it's "quaint" that I still back my hometown team. It doesn't bother them in the least that I don't stand fully on line with them. Nor should it. It would be kind of hypocritical if I did.

And it would be just as hypocritical for a White Sox fan in Chicago, not normally inclined to do so, to wave a Cub pennant just because this year they went deep in the playoffs.

Please note, I'm not a "Chicago sports" fan. I'm a "Chicago White Sox" fan. I have no obligation whatsoever to support any team I don't want to support. And I can actively dislike any of those unfavored teams, at a time and place of my own choosing. Free country, free livin', and all that.

As long as two major league baseball teams play in the same city, it's disrespectful for the success of one of those teams to be portrayed as "good for the whole city." I think a good case can be made (and has already been made on this forum and elsewhere) that quite the opposite is true.

In my opinion, Cub fans shouldn't be so insecure that they need to "win over" White Sox fans, because (1) it will never happen, (2) it shouldn't make any difference, and (3) the best of their fans are just as one-sided as the best of ours are. That's what "fan," shorthand for "fanatic," means. Look it up.

alohafri
10-18-2003, 11:58 AM
Somehow I think those Sox fans who rooted for the cubs because they are a Chicago team have not been subjected to the kind of crap that the rest of us have.

I grew up as a cub fan but became a Sox fan in the late 70s. Since I became a Sox fan, I have seen just how awful cub fans really are. It is only the "casual" cub fans and a couple of diehard cub fans that I can tolerate.

I used to go to a couple cub games a year at Wrigley with my cub fan boss. Of course I wore a Sox shirt so that no one would ever mistake me for a cub fan. I sat and minded my own business. I wasn't there to root against the cubs, so I just sat and watched the game. But God help me if I so much as walked to the bathroom! The jeers and taunts by cub fans were unbelievable--all unprovoked. I wouldn't even make eye contact at anyone lest I see some obscene gesture. Even at the cubs/Sox games at Wrigley, I try to mind my own business and not provoke cub fans in any way, but the taunts go on and on.
At Sox Park this last season, I went to many games where cub fans were there, including the game where the imbecile cub fan ran out onto the field and attacked the ump. These a-holes come to Sox Park in full scrubby gear, and taunt Sox fans in our own park, unprovoked, and during regular games, NOT just the Sox/cubs games. Our seats are in front of the Bullpen Bar upper deck, and a group of cub fans sat at the table in front of us a number of games. They refused to shut up during the National anthem, and pretty much booed the Sox and taunted other Sox fans to the point where we had to summon security. It wasn't until after security warned them that they settled down.

Anyone who doubts how obnoxious most cub fans are needs to surf the web for all the recent articles from sports journalists at major newspapers across the country--check the Des Moines Register, the Miami Herald, the SF paper, Milwaukee Journal, etc. etc. and you will see exactly what I'm talking about. You can't get an unbiased opinion of cub fans from any local Chicago paper.

My boss is a cub fan. I wish KingXerses could have spent the last few weeks in my office. Until last Thursday, I wanted to jump off a bridge.

(Mrs. Aloha)

alohafri
10-18-2003, 12:01 PM
ADSIT---excellent, excellent post.



(Mrs. Aloha)

doogiec
10-18-2003, 12:11 PM
If Sox fans in general showed the same or greater intensity of hatred against the Twins or Royals this year I'd buy into that argument. Or even Cleveland in past years.

It was the Twins that kicked our butts in September, not the Cubs.

How come I didn't see any bars holding parties or offering free beer when the Yankees beat the Twins?

Why are we so obsessed with a team that really shouldn't matter to us?

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by alohafri


I grew up as a cub fan but became a Sox fan in the late 70s. Since I became a Sox fan, I have seen just how awful cub fans really are. It is only the "casual" cub fans and a couple of diehard cub fans that I can tolerate.

(Mrs. Aloha) [/B]

Exactly. There's only so much derision one can be subjected to before hatred, rage, or at least a strong disliking, results in the subject. There are many reasons to dislike Cubs fans, but the reason Sox fans hate them is because of the complete and utter sense of superiority and disrepect that Cub fans show Sox fans and the South Side in general.

And when the parent company uses its media outlets to further that view point in order to improve it's team's ability to attract casual fans (i.e. you don't want to go to comiskey and be w/ those dirty Sox fans, so come to wrigley), then it get down-right rage inducing.

Kind of reminds me of a certain administration.

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
If Sox fans in general showed the same or greater intensity of hatred against the Twins or Royals this year I'd buy into that argument. Or even Cleveland in past years.



My answer is, while I of course want the Sox to beat the Twins and Royals, it's hard to hate these small market teams that play the game the way it was meant to be played, which is so rarely seen these days. That and my previous post on this thread.

alohafri
10-18-2003, 12:23 PM
Why do Sox fans hate the Cubs? A lack of respect. Even Marlins fans can relate to that. How many cub fans will root for the Marlins in the WS?


Marlins make to World Series, but still don't get respect
By DAVE BARRY
The Miami Herald

OK, Marlins fans: We have to go through this one more time.

I'm talking about getting disrespected by the fans of the other team, because we're not deserving enough.

We went through it with the Giants fans, who felt their team deserved to win because they had Barry Bonds, plus they were supposed to win the World Series LAST year.

Then we went through it -- big time -- with the Cubs fans , who felt they REALLY deserved to win because (a) the Cubs have not won anything since the glaciers retreated from North America; (b) the Cubs have a better ballpark than we do, with all the history and the ivy and the blah blah blah; the Cubs fans are SO knowledgeable about baseball, as opposed to us lame-o Marlins fans, a bunch of bandwagon jumpers who know so little about baseball that we would probably do something REALLY stupid, like interfere with a catchable foul ball hit by an opposing player.

Listen, Cubs fans: We feel sorry for you, really. But stop whining already. And leave that poor fan alone, unless you truly believe that, by touching the ball, he caused the Marlins to score eight runs in that game, and nine in the next. Your team lost because THE MARLINS PLAYED BETTER, OK? It's NOT because of some ''curse.'' The supernatural had nothing to do with it! Unless you count a Miami woman I know named Tina, who's from Nicaragua, and who revealed, after the Marlins beat the Cubs, that during the crucial eighth inning of Game 6 she performed a type of witchcraft called brujeria. But that did not violate any National League rule.

Anyway, my point, Marlins fans, is that neither the Giants fans nor the Cubs fans respected us. And now we're going to go through it again, only this time it will be much worse, because it will be New Yorkers.

I don't mean to insult all New Yorkers. I myself grew up in the New York City area, and I know that there are many New Yorkers who are thoughtful, gracious and classy. But there are also Yankees fans. They can best be described by an eight-letter word, beginning with the letter ''a,'' which I cannot write in a family newspaper.

Oh, what the heck, I'm going to write it anyway: The word is ''arrogant.'' Yankees fans believe their team should win the World Series every single year, because the Yankees have a Great Winning Tradition, defined as ''a really rich owner.'' That would be George Steinwhacker, who overcame the handicap of being born wealthy to become even more wealthy, and who buys all the best players from other teams. Sometimes he buys them during actual games, dropping cash on opposing players from his helicopter until they change into Yankees uniforms right on the field.

So the Yankees fans will be very confident, and the Yankees will be heavily favored. The entire rest of the nation will be rooting against us, because the Marlins had the insensitivity to beat the beloved Cubs, instead of, I don't know, deliberately striking out in key situations.

In short, Marlins fans: Nobody wants us to win, and nobody respects us. Fox Sports has announced that it will not even be broadcasting the Marlins' halves of the innings.

''When the Marlins are batting,'' stated a Fox executive, ``we will broadcast our new sitcom Wanda at Large, which we feel will have a greater appeal to our viewers.''

OK, fine. Let the rest of the world disrespect the Marlins, and their fans. It didn't matter when we played the Giants; it didn't matter when we played the Cubs; and it won't matter when we play the Steinwhackers. Because we don't need tradition, and we don't need history. What we have is better: A, plucky, spunky team that never gives up; a feisty 106-year-old manager who doesn't give a crap what anybody thinks; and a bunch of fans who maybe jumped on the bandwagon a little late, but who plan to make up for it by partying EXTRA long when we win the World Series.

Plus, we have Tina.

(Mrs. Aloha)

PaleHoseGeorge
10-18-2003, 12:24 PM
I don't see why anyone who graduated from the University of Illinois is obligated to root for Northwestern. I don't see any reason why anyone who graduated from UIC is obligated to root for UIUC, either.

The whole premise is just plain stupid. THERE IS MORE THAN ONE PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL TEAM IN CHICAGO.

The sooner the Cubune and their legion of idiot Flubbie fans begin dealing with this fact, the better.

Let's hear Lipman spin this one.

alohafri
10-18-2003, 12:28 PM
George, why not summarize all the reasons we gave and write a reply to the misguided fan in the Cubbune?



Mrs. Aloha

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by alohafri
George, why not summarize all the reasons we gave and write a reply to the misguided fan in the Cubbune?



Mrs. Aloha

Sorry to answer a question directed to someone else but:

Because they won't print it!!

adsit
10-18-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
How come I didn't see any bars holding parties or offering free beer when the Yankees beat the Twins?

Why are we so obsessed with a team that really shouldn't matter to us?

Among other things, the Twins don't have the propaganda juggernaut in Chicago that the Cubs do. I think the McNally's parties were an appropriate representation of Sox fans' sentiments. And damn, wish I could have been there.

Twins beat us in the standings, where it counts. In a Machiavellian way, I want the team representing our division in the playoffs to do well. I don't cheer or boo them.

And, let's face it, many new alcoholics would be created, and bars would go out of business, if they dispensed free brew for every Yankee triumph.

KingXerxes
10-18-2003, 12:40 PM
All I keep reading about is "the hatred and rage" that White Sox fans are subjected to - yet how come I don't see it? What I've seen over the past couple of weeks is an almost childish outpouring of anti-Cubdom, and all of it aimed squarely at Cub fans "real ones" or "fake ones" (although I personally can't see how a White Sox can determine that about a Cub fan.

Yesterday I got off of work early and decided to give my wife a break. I called her up and told her I would pick up my son from school on the way home. While waiting on the parking lot, I run into another White Sox fan - let's call him Larry (his real name), and he's running around getting in the face of 7 and 8 years olds saying, "How come your not wearing a Cubs hat today? What happened to your Cubs? I knew your Cubs would choke!" WHAT A LOSER. This guy is in the face of little kids for God's Sake. When I told him to lay off the kids - he just looked at me and said someting about it being his perogitive as a White Sox fan.

Now I'll admit going toe to toe with Cub fans in the past. I used to argue over who had the better third baseman - was it Ward or Santo? - but keep in mind I was about eight or nine myself at the time. I grew up.

Does one have to apologize for being a White Sox fan? No! Does one have to apologize for rooting against the Cubs? No again. But when a White Sox fan goes out and roots against the Cubs in an over the top/they are the Anti-Christ fashion well guess what? To those who are either Cubs fans or no fans, they look like bitter clowns. Do you have the right to appear as a bitter clown? Sure - but then quit whining when you are portrayed as a bitter clown.

As far as the poster who lives in Boston goes, can you truly see no difference between (A) Living in Boston, and following the White Sox and (B) Living in Boston, following the White Sox, wearing Red Sox Suck t-shirts, and hanging big banners over your house saying Red Sox Choke Again?

voodoochile
10-18-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
I'm not sure what the definition of a real White Sox fan is, but based on the fact that every Sox loss, no matter how meaningless, kills me and every victory, no matter how meaningless, makes my day a little better, I think I probably am one.

However, I too have many good friends and even a few relatives that are "real Cubs fans". Not the drunken yuppies that move into Lakeview for a few years and adopt the Cubs because its cute to show fake loyalty, but real fans who have pulled for the Cubs year in and year out despite losing because the Cubs are their team. They go to the games and understand baseball as much or more so than most. Just as real Sox fans do.

Like you, I have one particular Cub fan relative for whom "wait til next year" is not a realistic option. Being a human being, I want my friends and family to be happy, especially when its not at my expense since the Sox choked in September. Therefore I would have been happier had the Cubs won, although I have to admit it was kind of amusing watching the drunken yuppies fake Cub fans cry.

For those of you "real Sox fans" who think that the Cubs losing somehow helps the Sox, I remind you that the Sox play in the same division as KC, Minn, Det and Cleve. Note the Cubs are not on that list. In addition, to make it to the World Series the Sox would also have to beat teams from the AL East and West divisions in the playoffs. Note the Cubs are not in either list.

For the six days that the Cubs play the White Sox, they are the enemy. However year after year it disgusts me to see divisional series, series that really mean something, with crowds half the size (and sometimes with half the intensity) of the Cubs/Sox series. It also disgusted me to see people walking around the Minn series in September wearing "Cubs Suck" T shirts. The Sox are playing the Twins for a postseason berth in September and fans are focused on the Cubs? Why?

The White Sox also have fake fans. Fans who never bother to go to games or watch on TV. They exist only to rip on Cub fans. They only go to the Cubs/Sox series because it gives them a chance to get drunk and fight. After the Cubs were eliminated, I was amazed to see "Sox fans" who I know don't really give a crap about the Sox, ripping on Cubs fans. Yet where were they during the Minnesota and KC series? No where to be found.

The commonly stated perception that all Cub fans know nothing about baseball is wrong. They certainly have more than their share of idiots, but so do we.

Unfortunately Sox fans partying at fact that the Cubs were eliminated only reinforces the concept that in Chicago the baseball world revolves around Wrigley. It also reinforces the Cub fan claim that Sox fans are classless idiots who know nothing about baseball. Remember, the Cubs did have the better season this year as of the first day of the post season. If you really hate the Cubs, ignore them.

White Sox fans should hold back on their celebrations until we win something important.

I couldn't have said it better.

However, the letter to the Trib was too funny. Allow me to translate...

"WAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!! The mean old Sox fans don't like my team... WAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: "

Get over it. Some fans of the Sox actively root against the flubbies. Some fans of the flubbies actively root against the Sox. Thus has it ever been. Thus will it ever be...

SouthSideHitman
10-18-2003, 12:50 PM
KingXerxes, if you cannot see what Sox fans are subjected to, then you just aren't looking hard enough. I live in Homwood, which is directly south of the city, yet I am made to feel like a great minority for being a Sox fan. In junior high, as a "reward assembly" they got about five cubs players to do a presentation for us and give autographs. I not only was not allowed to skip the assembly (which would have been easiest for all), but I was asked to remove my Sox cap and a had a sign saying "Go Go Sox", confiscated by the school. And all of this was in the winter after the Sox had tied for the best record in baseball and the cubs had had the worst!

Today, with the cubs inotxicating 88 wins thier fans feel free to act like their the '27 yankees and we're the '62 Mets. I don't mind spirited, good-natured arguements with the cubs fans I know and respect, but at the point where teachers and security guards constantly harras me about wearing a Sox jersey and where, I'm shouted down by an entire room when I remind people that the cubs had only two more wins than the Sox with a signifigantly easier schedule, I feel that there is probably something to the idea that Sox fans don't get a fair shake.

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
All I keep reading about is "the hatred and rage" that White Sox fans are subjected to - yet how come I don't see it?

Personally, I wasn't saying sox fans are subjected to hatred and rage; I was saying sox fans are subjected to derision from Cubs fans which results in hatred and rage in sox fans towards the cubs.

oheeoh...magglio
10-18-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I don't see why anyone who graduated from the University of Illinois is obligated to root for Northwestern. I don't see any reason why anyone who graduated from UIC is obligated to root for UIUC, either.

The whole premise is just plain stupid. THERE IS MORE THAN ONE PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL TEAM IN CHICAGO.

The sooner the Cubune and their legion of idiot Flubbie fans begin dealing with this fact, the better.

Let's hear Lipman spin this one.

This is the best description of why Sox fans don't have to root for the "hometown cubs" that's I've ever heard. Great post.

KingXerxes
10-18-2003, 12:58 PM
voodoochili - I agree with the assertion that some Cub fans pull against the WHite Sox and visa versa, but what I think is my issue here is that there are degrees to it.

What northside bar was giving out free drinks when the White Sox were playing Seattle a few years ago? None that I know of. If I'm mistaken, I invite anybody on these boards to let me know, but pleeeeeeeeeease don't simply start spouting off generalities about "all the bars were doing it" or "the media didn't cover the bars doing it", because - although I'm getting old - I can still remember three years back, and I'm sure I would have remembered if some sort of anti-White Sox sentiment were sweeping Cubdom.

I hope that all White Sox fans keep cheering for the beloved, and if they want to cheer against the Cubs fine, but when it reaches belligerant or distracting proportions it's not good for the White Sox or their fan base. Hell I just shut off WSCR and guys are still calling and hurling invectives at the Cubs and their fans. In the short run, I'm sure it makes these guys feel great that the Cubs lost, but in the long run, what does it say about a guy calling up a radio and bleating on and on about how the Cubs suck when the Cubs were within a couple of innings of the World Series, and we didn't even get close? In the long run, this is not good.

oheeoh...magglio
10-18-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by alohafri
Why do Sox fans hate the Cubs? A lack of respect. Even Marlins fans can relate to that. How many cub fans will root for the Marlins in the WS?


Another great point, this time on why sox fans hate the cubs. They give us no respect, and think we should all convert to sox fans just because "everybody else is one" and "the cubs are the real team in chicago" and things like that. I just wish they could respect the fact that don't like the cubs, and never will. If they did, I think my hatred of the cubs would decrese dramatically.

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
But when a White Sox fan goes out and roots against the Cubs in an over the top/they are the Anti-Christ fashion well guess what? To those who are either Cubs fans or no fans, they look like bitter clowns.


But what's worse, being a bitter clown, or being the type of fan the average Cubs fan showed themselves to be during and following game 6 of the NLCS? And yet the tribune focuses on Sox fans being poor sports, with hardly a mention of the embarassing behavior in relation to that poor sap, Bartman. How in the world can Cubs fans criticize sox fan's immediately after that? Its as if the Tribune, and other major chicago media, is printing these articles to divert attention from that incident, which to me is more damning than anything I've seen from Sox fans in a long time, if ever. Yet when that idiot and his son who stormed the field and attacked Gamboa, the trib and cubs fan used that to indict and debase the entire sox fan base for months, when in fact it was just one random loon who happened to buy a ticket to the game, compared to thousands of Cubs fans in the stands and thousand more outside scouring the city to torment this poor guy.

That is why this article, to me, is so disgusting.

KingXerxes
10-18-2003, 01:08 PM
hitman - Last time I checked, Homewood was almost exclusively White Sox fans. Your school invited - and evidently got - several Cub players to attend an awards ceremony, and you want to walk in wearing a White Sox hat, with a sign saying Go White Sox? Is that how you think the school wanted to treat some ballplayers who actually agreed to show up and be part of your awards ceremony? Am I nuts for seeing exactly why the school did what they did in this case. You were what 12 years old? 13 years old?, and you felt as though you were being discriminated against? Let it go.

washington
10-18-2003, 01:08 PM
I don't understand why being a White Sox fan means I have to have any opinion at all regarding the Cubs. I don't care about them. I refuse to have my status as a "good" or "bad" baseball fan be defined based on how I feel about the Cubs.

Realistically, the Cubune has been publishing letters from angry Cub fans ripping Sox fans because it's an easy cheap shot at the Sox. Which is in direct competition for revenues from the Cubune's baseball subsidiary. It's a phony issue otherwise.

LuvSox
10-18-2003, 01:09 PM
**** you, Tom Sheridan! Go Fish! :gulp:

adsit
10-18-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes As far as the poster who lives in Boston goes, can you truly see no difference between (A) Living in Boston, and following the White Sox and (B) Living in Boston, following the White Sox, wearing Red Sox Suck t-shirts, and hanging big banners over your house saying Red Sox Choke Again?

I can see the difference okay. I'm in the (A) column, not the (B) one. Were I still in Chicago (grew up on the North Side, btw), I wouldn't wearing or displaying anything with the word "Cubs" on it, either. That's a matter of personal taste.

The people who are doing that would seem, to me at least, to have antisocial tendencies. People who torment children, as Larry did, have significant "issues" that a baseball cap is going to neither justify nor excuse.

Now then, should I take that leap of logic and say that these people, in all their fanatical glory, reflect poorly on me because they misbehave in the name of the White Sox? No more than I would feel Al Capone represented what all Chicagoans are like, nor allow that to diminish my pride in being a native Chicagoan.

JohnJeter
10-18-2003, 01:15 PM
"Bitterness", "hatred", "seething a-holes", "derision"?

Fun game, this baseball. . .

KingXerxes
10-18-2003, 01:16 PM
Okay - exactly what would Cubs fans have to do before some of you guys would stop with the "We get no respect" diatribes?

I honestly have never felt downtrodden for my alligience to the White Sox - ever. It appears however that I am in the minority in that I don't feel like a "victim" of anything (other than some dissappointing losses to Minnesota).

Max Power
10-18-2003, 01:18 PM
I had two reactions to the Cubs choke. For my Cub fan friends that live and die with their wins and losses ("true fans") I was disappointed. As I assume they would be disappointed for me if it had been the Sox instead.
But for the people I know from school (Indiana U.) that moved into Lincoln Park and Wrigleyville recently and all of sudden became "Cubs fans", I was extremely happy to see the Cubs choke. These people couldn't name 3 players on the roster and just jumped on the bandwagon because its cool. One girl is from Minnesota, cheered for the Twins when we were in school and named her dog after Kirby Puckett, and now she's cheering for the Cubs! Furthermore, they had the audacity to mock me for being a Sox fan and not cheering for the Cubs. I feel no remorse for being happy to see these people be disappointed.
I can't stand bandwagon fans no matter what team's bandwagon they've jumped on (even the Sox or the Bulls in the 90's). Fans live and die with each game and to see people jump behind a team during the good times and leave in the bad times should bother any fan, even if they're jumping on your team's bandwagon.
If the Cubs had won the World Series I know my bandwagon Cubs fans would have mocked me (my real Cub fan friends wouldn't have said anything) but I would have taken solace in the fact that the Sox winning a championship would make me happier than they could ever know.

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
hitman - Your school invited - and evidently got - several Cub players to attend an awards ceremony, and you want to walk in wearing a White Sox hat, with a sign saying Go White Sox? Is that how you think the school wanted to treat some ballplayers who actually agreed to show up and be part of your awards ceremony?


Where I come from - America - public schools have no right to tell its students what to say or not say, or whether or not to wear a certain teams hat, granted wearing a hat is acceptable.

KingXerxes
10-18-2003, 01:21 PM
adsit - That's my point exactly.

Does Larry (who I will have very little to do with in the future) reflect on you? No. Now let's say there were 500 Larrys. Still probably not. But if you start getting huge numbers of Larrys out there - like it or not - you will start being associated with them via the fact that you cheer for the White Sox.

My hope is that we're not seeing the beginning of Larrydom amongst White Sox fans. But if history is any indication, every time Cubs make it into the playoffs, the volume of this anti-Cub attitude seems to get louder and louder. It was never louder than the past couple of weeks, and it seems to be dying down much slower than I thought it would.

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by JohnJeter
"Bitterness", "hatred", "seething a-holes", "derision"?

Fun game, this baseball. . .


I take it you haven't seen the footage

joecrede
10-18-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
What northside bar was giving out free drinks when the White Sox were playing Seattle a few years ago? None that I know of. If I'm mistaken, I invite anybody on these boards to let me know, but pleeeeeeeeeease don't simply start spouting off generalities about "all the bars were doing it" or "the media didn't cover the bars doing it"

Your beef with White Sox fans being bitter is centered around a neighborhood tap giving out free drinks for Marlins homers?

Also I don't remember articles about bars in Wrigleyville where people were cheering for the Sox in 2000 like those printed in the Sun-Times about Jimbo's and Puffers.

I can still remember three years back, and I'm sure I would have remembered if some sort of anti-White Sox sentiment were sweeping Cubdom.

Did you read the Tribune (center of Cubdom) back then? The Sox had the second highest increase in attendance year-over-year in the AL (behind the Tigers who opened their new park) in 2000, yet all you read about was empty blue seats. Talk about ant-Sox sentiment ...

KingXerxes
10-18-2003, 01:25 PM
AsInWreck - I don't know where you come from, but if you don't think a school has the right to exercise authority relative to the behavior of its students, I have to ask where you went to school.

Anarchy U?

JohnJeter
10-18-2003, 01:30 PM
I think it galls some Sox fans that they can't even come in first in terms of Cub fans' animus. Cards get that distinction, at least based on my experience with Cub fans. And yes, I live among 'em.

KingXerxes
10-18-2003, 01:36 PM
joecrede - I wouldn't expect to see articles about Cub bars full of people cheering for the White Sox, nor would I expect to see articles about White Sox bars cheering for the Cubs.

As far as McNally's goes, that's just one example I used to make a bigger point. I don't want to get into a tit for tat discussion about he said/she said, my only point was that it's kind of hard to deny that a huge wave of "I hate the Cubs" has settled in on the White Sox fan base. Maybe it was always there - I don't know - but it seems to have bubbled over to a point where it starts painting a picture after awhile.

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
AsInWreck - I don't know where you come from, but if you don't think a school has the right to exercise authority relative to the behavior of its students, I have to ask where you went to school.

Anarchy U?


Behavior yes, speech no. Students rights have been upheld repeatedly by the supreme court. Of course, the courts make exceptions for thing like obscenity, and racial and religious hatred, but unless you're a cubs fan I don't think you could consider a sox hat to be a obscene.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-18-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Sorry to answer a question directed to someone else but:

Because they won't print it!!

It's a waste of time. I never write letters to the editor. You'll get no justice from them.

voodoochile
10-18-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Behavior yes, speech no. Students rights have been upheld repeatedly by the supreme court.

And if it were a serious social issue that would be an issue, but come on... it's BASEBALL. It's supposed to be fun. When did hate and attitude become so much fun?

KingXerxes
10-18-2003, 01:43 PM
AsInWreck - Please site me the Supreme Court ruling. I can almost guarantee you that it was not a blanket "kids can say whatever they want" ruling, and that it probably dealt along very narrow legal arguments. There is no way in the world the Supreme Court would rule that children attending school have the unbridled right to free speech during classes or school events. No way.

This discussion (school kids rights) is probably better in the Parking Lot - although I really don't have the expertise to discuss it intelligently.

TornLabrum
10-18-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Where I come from - America - public schools have no right to tell its students what to say or not say, or whether or not to wear a certain teams hat, granted wearing a hat is acceptable.

The high school I teach at has a policy of no hats in the building, no matter what is on them.

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
AsInWreck - Please site me the Supreme Court ruling. I can almost guarantee you that it was not a blanket "kids can say whatever they want" ruling.

I don't really have the time, but if you want to look into it yourself you might want to start w/ the 1st amendment

doogiec
10-18-2003, 02:01 PM
Did you read the Tribune (center of Cubdom) back then? The Sox had the second highest increase in attendance year-over-year in the AL (behind the Tigers who opened their new park) in 2000, yet all you read about was empty blue seats. Talk about ant-Sox sentiment ... [/B]

The White Sox had the best record in the AL that year, play in one of the largest markets in baseball, yet only ranked 9th out of 14 AL teams in attendance, and you wonder why people harp on the attendance issue?

You're only upset because the Cubune didn't spin the numbers the way the Sox wanted them to. Attendance that year was a disgrace.

adsit
10-18-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
adsit - That's my point exactly.

Does Larry (who I will have very little to do with in the future) reflect on you? No. Now let's say there were 500 Larrys. Still probably not. But if you start getting huge numbers of Larrys out there - like it or not - you will start being associated with them via the fact that you cheer for the White Sox.

My hope is that we're not seeing the beginning of Larrydom amongst White Sox fans. But if history is any indication, every time Cubs make it into the playoffs, the volume of this anti-Cub attitude seems to get louder and louder. It was never louder than the past couple of weeks, and it seems to be dying down much slower than I thought it would.

Now seems to be a good time to mention I'm also a big NASCAR follower :D:. What image just popped into your head? That's not me, either.

I see your points, Xerxes, and don't take issue with them. I climbed aboard this thread opposing the premise that Sox fans cheering against the Cubs are poor sports. A fringe element may be beating it into the ground, but I expect to see that everywhere. Indeed, the whole Bartman thing is a stellar example of how ugly loveable Cubbies can become, and many Cub fans don't endorse it.

I remember when the Sox were ascendant in the '80s, and while the glee exercised by Cub fans at our expense wasn't quite as loud, it was definitely there. And I bought a Padres hat in '84 to wear at a well-attended anti-Cub watch party. I may still have it.

There's more megaphones lying around (such as sports talk radio and more TV stations doing heavily promoted and "spun" newscasts) in Chicago these days, so maybe that has much to do with why you're hearing it more, and it seems more intense?

doogiec
10-18-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Your beef with White Sox fans being bitter is centered around a neighborhood tap giving out free drinks for Marlins homers?

My personal beef was watching a bunch of White Sox fans pretending to be Marlins fans by wearing Marlins shirts and hats and celebrating Fla's pennant as if it had been won by the White Sox, after the Sox failed to win anything this year.

joecrede
10-18-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
As far as McNally's goes, that's just one example I used to make a bigger point. I don't want to get into a tit for tat discussion about he said/she said, my only point was that it's kind of hard to deny that a huge wave of "I hate the Cubs" has settled in on the White Sox fan base. Maybe it was always there - I don't know - but it seems to have bubbled over to a point where it starts painting a picture after awhile.

I guess I don't understand how you can be a Sox fan in the Chicago area and not have a strong dislike of all things Cubs or at the very least recognize the reasons for its existence. You seem surprised and disappointed at the picture that this hatred paints.

AsInWreck
10-18-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
I don't really have the time, but if you want to look into it yourself you might want to start w/ the 1st amendment


Sorry, I couldn't resist : the 1st major supreme court ruling re: students freedom of speech rights was Tinker Vs. Des Moines Independent Community School District,1969, in which the court ruled the school district could not prevent its students, based on the grounds that it would cause a disturbance, from wearing black arm bands in protest of the Vietnam War. There are literally hundreds of other cases that continued to uphold student's speech rights.

Of course, that hasn't stopped the schools from influencing students into believing their rights don't exist.

MisterB
10-18-2003, 02:18 PM
This thread reminds me of a saying among Giants fans: "There is a great rivalry between SF and LA, but only SF knows it." The reason that Cub fans don't have the same vitriol against the Sox is that they're so sure of their 'superiority' that they can't muster the same kind of passion that drives Sox fans. You can't deny that Sox fans are in the minority in Chicago, and a marginalized one at that. Sox fans have developed a 'bunker' mentality because of the perception that no one is on our side. Those of you in Chicago can compare the relative amounts of citywide support the Sox got in 2000 to the Cubs this year. Following from afar I can attest that the Sox making it to the playoffs with the best record in the AL got about a quarter of the media coverage the Cubs got slipping in with a worse record than the wildcard team this year. Our own owner isn't particularly interested in the team succeeding on the field. And even the players efforts are questioned (see Buehrle's Cardinal comments). Call it a persecution complex if you want, but it's well rooted in reality. Sox fans have just learned to make up for a lack of quantity with increased intensity.

Mo308oM
10-18-2003, 02:40 PM
hahahah i just made a comment about that article in a marlins communtiy online. so true, so true.

oh yes, im tina. the one who performed the brujeria on the cubs *bows*

ssang
10-18-2003, 03:23 PM
I am an Un-Apologetic Cub Hater! I was raised that way and I'm damn proud of it. Seeing the Cubs lose was Unbelievable fun. I don't care what anyone says, the Cubs suck and I love it when miserable things happen to them and their mronic fans. I would say the 2003 NLCS definatley qualifies as one of the greatest disasters to that team and their loser fans. Yes I love the Sox, but hating the Cubs makes everything THAT much better. This is the way it should be between our fans. Love for one team and hate for the other.

Dadawg_77
10-18-2003, 03:53 PM
First celebrating the Marlins NLCS was only one tenth the fun of celebrating a White Sox ALCS win and one hundredth of WSWS.

Let me preface with the fact, I was born, raised and live on the North Side.

Being Sox fan is like being a leper up here. Fellow Chicagoans ask me if I am Cub fan, when I say no I am Sox fan, they always are taken back and then follow it up with a Sox suck comment. King, you asked what do Cubs fans have to do for me not to hate the Cubs, it is not to treat Sox fans like lepers. When someone says I am a Sox fan, they just go cool be your bad self, but now you are treated as second class citizen.

Dadawg_77
10-18-2003, 03:57 PM
As for McNally's no one can deny it was great promo for the Bar. That place was packed on Weds night. They gave away few beers but they made nice piece of cash on Weds. I am sure that owner of McNally's may hate the Cubs but he glad they made it to NLCS.

luvsox56
10-18-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by ssang
I am an Un-Apologetic Cub Hater! I was raised that way and I'm damn proud of it. Seeing the Cubs lose was Unbelievable fun. I don't care what anyone says, the Cubs suck and I love it when miserable things happen to them and their mronic fans. I would say the 2003 NLCS definatley qualifies as one of the greatest disasters to that team and their loser fans. Yes I love the Sox, but hating the Cubs makes everything THAT much better. This is the way it should be between our fans. Love for one team and hate for the other.

Now this I could not have said better myself. This is the way I grew up and this is the way I will always be.

joecrede
10-18-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
The White Sox had the best record in the AL that year, play in one of the largest markets in baseball, yet only ranked 9th out of 14 AL teams in attendance, and you wonder why people harp on the attendance issue?

You're only upset because the Cubune didn't spin the numbers the way the Sox wanted them to. Attendance that year was a disgrace.

Don't mean to argue this, but If you understand the factors that go into attendance, I think it's a misrepresentation to characterize the Sox 2000 numbers as a disgrace.

oheeoh...magglio
10-18-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
First celebrating the Marlins NLCS was only one tenth the fun of celebrating a White Sox ALCS win and one hundredth of WSWS.

Let me preface with the fact, I was born, raised and live on the North Side.

Being Sox fan is like being a leper up here. Fellow Chicagoans ask me if I am Cub fan, when I say no I am Sox fan, they always are taken back and then follow it up with a Sox suck comment. King, you asked what do Cubs fans have to do for me not to hate the Cubs, it is not to treat Sox fans like lepers. When someone says I am a Sox fan, they just go cool be your bad self, but now you are treated as second class citizen.

I live 100 miles away from Chicago, and am treated like a second class citizen when I tell people i'm a white sox fan, I can only imagine what it's like to be a sox fan on the north side.....

woodenleg
10-18-2003, 04:43 PM
When I was a kid, it was a fun rivalry, but then I lived on the south side, so it didn't matter so much. What changed my mind about the Cubs was getting to know Cub fans who think that the entire south side is a ghetto or a trailer park and that we're all crude and unintelligent. I went to school up there, and I lived up there for seven years. The gentleman who went to Indiana is exactly right. It becomes personal and more intense when you have to live and work with such people. I think what drives me nuts is the schoolmarmish attitudes of some of the Cub fans - they're always moralizing and lecturing, and as a south sider who crossed over to the north, that snobbery is painfully familiar. What sealed it was seeing all sorts of really bad, bullying arrogant behaviors when I lived in Wrigleyville - behaviors that never seem to tarnish the Cubs' image the way a few fans or Disco Demolition have tarnished ours. I don't think any one group of fans is better than any other, but the talk about
the greatest fans in the world this year was a bit much. I don't think that having more fans makes you better fans, nor do I think packing someone else's stadium makes one a better fan. Out of pride, I simply cannot root for them. Besides, I feel no more love for that team than I do the Milwaukee Brewers - why fake it just to please someone else? This sort of attitude used to be accepted on both sides of town, but the city has changed drastically in character in the past twenty years - a new sort of prohibition brought about by suburbanites flooding the city and expecting us to live by some suburban moral code. That's pretty much what has happened to the north side - with zoning and licensing getting stricter, and kids not feeling free to "hang out" on the street. If you brush up on your history, the climate is very much like the early twentieth century, and the attitudes toward immigrants up there is eerily similar. I don't expect Cub fans to be better, I would just like for the premise that they are
better to be dropped. I think moralizing about "sportsmanship" and character take much of the fun out of baseball, and yes, I think some of the hatred is fun. That said, I would much rather wear a Sox shirt than a Cork shirt or a Marlins shirt.

doogiec
10-18-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Don't mean to argue this, but If you understand the factors that go into attendance, I think it's a misrepresentation to characterize the Sox 2000 numbers as a disgrace.

There are a lot of theories on attendance. One which is absolute reality is that if a team gets off to a poor start, it doesn't matter how well they do at the end of the season. In this case though, the Sox were 17-8 at the end of April, 50-29 at the end of June.

The weather was relatively mild that year, IIRC. Another theory is that a good season actually affects attendance the next year. But the Sox were 12 out of 14 in 2001. The only factor I see is that two teams had new ballparks that year (although the Mariners actually opened mid 1999), and Detroit usually draws worse than the Sox.

The Sox put a good team on the field, and the fans did not show up. I don't know what other factors may have caused this, but I'm open to hearing them.

But if you look at our attendance the last several years, we're usually in the bottom half of the AL. Don't expect the media to ignore that.

cheeses_h_rice
10-18-2003, 06:08 PM
I was very very thrilled to watch the Flubs implode the way they did. However, I was among the Wrigley faithful for the choke in game 6 (on Waveland), and I kept my poker face on before I left the area. I 'celebrated' the way I would expect and respect Flub fans who might do the same thing should the Sox be in the same position in the future -- let them root against my team if they wish, but don't rub it in, taunt me, and generally act classless. I don't think you can accuse too many Sox fans of doing that.

As for message boards, I rubbed it in on the MLB board against a few jackass Flub trolls because they had been rubbing the fact that they were going to advance to the World Series in our faces, and also just generally trashing Sox fans for all sorts of classist reasons. But, seeing as it was a Sox board that these jackasses were on, I don't think I stepped over any bounds.

But for anyone to bash on me because I took any sort of happiness out of the horrific way they choked is to question the essence of how I "should be" as a fan, and I don't think anyone else should do that. There are any number of reasons why I can't stand the Flubs, and in my opinion the Flubs' success comes directly at the expense of the Sox's future perception among the fickle public. The Flubs winning now pretty much destroys any sort of argument that Sox fans can put up against Flub fans in the future; how many of us bring up the fact that their last back-to-back winning seasons were when Nixon was president? I know that I do. The Flubs being a pathetic, perennially losing club is pretty much the only thing that Sox fans can really knock them with and have it stick, and if you take that away, we really don't have a lot of ammo, do we?

If the Flubs had indeed advanced to or even won the World Series this year, you would simply never see the end of Flub fans lording that over Sox fans' heads, year after year. I for one don't want to see that.

Hangar18
10-18-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by doogiec

How come I didn't see any bars holding parties or offering free beer when the Yankees beat the Twins?

Why are we so obsessed with a team that really shouldn't matter to us?

The Twinks are pretty good. Though I dont appreciate the
fact that they use their HOME FIELD against other teams, hey
theyre still a good team, and they wont be around much longer
anyway. Why am I so obsessed with a team that shouldnt really matter? Im glad you asked that. The cubs were just some team that played in "weird looking" ballpark to me, when I was a Kid. I watched them, watched them lose, watched them fail, in short ....I watched them. I remembered not liking their uniforms that much back then, I remember the PLACE WAS ALWAYS EMPTY, and I remembered the teams they Played Against were ALWAYS MUCH BETTER, and made them look bad.
I Remembered thinking "man, how does anyone like them"

I always preferred and Rooted for the SOX. But something funny started happening as the Years went by. I noticed the MEDIA starting to give the Flubs
A little more media coverage, a little more props, a little more attention. They didnt deserve it, but got it. THen I noticed they started getting attention for "beautiful" wrigley field. I remembered NEVER HAVING HEARD any of that nonsense before, and why are they saying that a lot lately? Then ..........
When Harry Met Wrigley (feel free to copy that Mariotti and Rosenbloom, I know youve been reading our posts btw) THE MEDIA Seemed to take 6 steps forward with their Coverage and LOVE for the team. They were just as bad, YET were getting press, were getting attention, suddenly "FAN CAM SHOTS" were the norm, people were being told "How beautiful" the place was, and it was a "SHRINE", and that one couldnt Exist on our planet without having Visited the dump at clark and addison.
Suddenly, people were buying into it. It helped the area Gentrified (young people with money, and nothing to do)
and next thing you know, The Medias PRETENDING that it was always like this. THe media, regarding the White SOX have
pretty much followed these stages
* Apathetic to Sox late 70's to 1980 (77 exception)
* Ignored the Sox 1980 to 1990 (83 exception)
* Mocked the Sox 1990 to 1994 (93 exception)
* Despised the Sox 1994 to Present (Strike/WFlag helped)

To get thru these stages took a lot of time, and an Incredible
Set of Circumstances, most of which Included some Very Bad
PR Mistakes by the White Sox Themselves. Though its Physically
Impossible to "kick oneself in the arse", JR has accomplished
this feat a few times over (Harry Caray, Fisk saga, Stadium StrongArm tactics, Eventual New Comiskey, low payrolls, role in 94Strike, WhiteFlag etc etc) We are on the verge of Level 5
or * Bury the Sox. We allow the cubs to gain "world" notoriety by getting to the World Series, the Media will BURY
this Franchise. The "Popularity" of that other team meanwhile, is akin to that of a 24 hour INFOMERCIAL. After a while of seeing the same Product being plugged and plugged, and being told how "Great" it is, and how much better you are for Partaking in the northside teams products, you Begin TO BUY INTO THE THEME. Their "popularity" has soared in this SAME TIMELINE. Being Smarter than the Average Bear, I saw thru this, and thru the YEars, I went thru the Same Following Stages of my feelings TOWARDS the cubs.
I was at first
* Apathetic to Cubs 1970s
* Ignored the Cubs late 70-s to 1981
* Mocked the Cubs 1981 to 1984
* Despised the Cubs 1984 to Present

So you see, I didnt really hate them all this time, It was a
Growing and "natural" chain of events that have me where
I am Today. A CUB HATER and Hater of their Fans, Fan Base
Fan Culture and that stupid logo of theirs, as well as the Place the Media tells me is Great, but really isnt. (this doesnt apply
to the 2% of the cub fans that truly always liked them)

Realist
10-18-2003, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes


I have said a million times on these boards that I could not care less about the Cubs, that it's the White Sox I want to see succeed. Now that the playoffs are over for the northsiders, I must admit that way too many White Sox fans were (and maybe still are) way too bitter over the fact that - to a certain extent - the Cubs had some success.


I now await my own execution from "real White Sox fans".

I fully respect your opinion, however I'm one of the Sox fans that was pulling for the Marlins and was absolutely delighted that the Cubs choked. I have always rooted against the Cubs and no trip to the World Series for them is going to change that. I've had to put up with way too many Cubs fans lipping off at me my entire life give that team even one inch.

I also have a family member that is very close to me that is a die hard Cubs fan and a true prince. It bothers me that he took their choke so badly and I have to admit that I had some mixed emotions because what happened to the good Cubs fans shouldn't happen to any baseball fans. I said on another thread that this is still America and there is such a thing as cruel and unusual punishment.

Realist
10-18-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by oheeoh...magglio
I live 100 miles away from Chicago, and am treated like a second class citizen when I tell people i'm a white sox fan, I can only imagine what it's like to be a sox fan on the north side.....

It's absolute hell. I work at a bar 4 blocks from the Urinal and having to deal with all the idiot yuppie newbie Cubs fans makes me prouder every minute that I'm a Sox fan.

Realist
10-18-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
The Twinks are pretty good. Though I dont appreciate the
fact that they use their HOME FIELD against other teams, hey
theyre still a good team, and they wont be around much longer
anyway. Why am I so obsessed with a team that shouldnt really matter? Im glad you asked that. The cubs were just some team that played in "weird looking" ballpark to me, when I was a Kid. I watched them, watched them lose, watched them fail, in short ....I watched them. I remembered not liking their uniforms that much back then, I remember the PLACE WAS ALWAYS EMPTY, and I remembered the teams they Played Against were ALWAYS MUCH BETTER, and made them look bad.
I Remembered thinking "man, how does anyone like them"

I always preferred and Rooted for the SOX. But something funny started happening as the Years went by. I noticed the MEDIA starting to give the Flubs
A little more media coverage, a little more props, a little more attention. They didnt deserve it, but got it. THen I noticed they started getting attention for "beautiful" wrigley field. I remembered NEVER HAVING HEARD any of that nonsense before, and why are they saying that a lot lately? Then ..........
When Harry Met Wrigley (feel free to copy that Mariotti and Rosenbloom, I know youve been reading our posts btw) THE MEDIA Seemed to take 6 steps forward with their Coverage and LOVE for the team. They were just as bad, YET were getting press, were getting attention, suddenly "FAN CAM SHOTS" were the norm, people were being told "How beautiful" the place was, and it was a "SHRINE", and that one couldnt Exist on our planet without having Visited the dump at clark and addison.
Suddenly, people were buying into it. It helped the area Gentrified (young people with money, and nothing to do)
and next thing you know, The Medias PRETENDING that it was always like this. THe media, regarding the White SOX have
pretty much followed these stages
* Apathetic to Sox late 70's to 1980 (77 exception)
* Ignored the Sox 1980 to 1990 (83 exception)
* Mocked the Sox 1990 to 1994 (93 exception)
* Despised the Sox 1994 to Present (Strike/WFlag helped)

To get thru these stages took a lot of time, and an Incredible
Set of Circumstances, most of which Included some Very Bad
PR Mistakes by the White Sox Themselves. Though its Physically
Impossible to "kick oneself in the arse", JR has accomplished
this feat a few times over (Harry Caray, Fisk saga, Stadium StrongArm tactics, Eventual New Comiskey, low payrolls, role in 94Strike, WhiteFlag etc etc) We are on the verge of Level 5
or * Bury the Sox. We allow the cubs to gain "world" notoriety by getting to the World Series, the Media will BURY
this Franchise. The "Popularity" of that other team meanwhile, is akin to that of a 24 hour INFOMERCIAL. After a while of seeing the same Product being plugged and plugged, and being told how "Great" it is, and how much better you are for Partaking in the northside teams products, you Begin TO BUY INTO THE THEME. Their "popularity" has soared in this SAME TIMELINE. Being Smarter than the Average Bear, I saw thru this, and thru the YEars, I went thru the Same Following Stages of my feelings TOWARDS the cubs.
I was at first
* Apathetic to Cubs 1970s
* Ignored the Cubs late 70-s to 1981
* Mocked the Cubs 1981 to 1984
* Despised the Cubs 1984 to Present

So you see, I didnt really hate them all this time, It was a
Growing and "natural" chain of events that have me where
I am Today. A CUB HATER and Hater of their Fans, Fan Base
Fan Culture and that stupid logo of theirs, as well as the Place the Media tells me is Great, but really isnt. (this doesnt apply
to the 2% of the cub fans that truly always liked them)

Excellent post, Hangar.
This should have been the start of its own thread.

Huisj
10-18-2003, 07:06 PM
I think it's right for sox fans to hate the cubs. why shouldn't they? msu fans hate u of m fans. my high school hated our rival high school. calvin college fans hate hope. what is wrong with hating the cubs?

That said, I think the best way to go about it is to just feel confident that the cubs will choke (as they did), and then have a simple smile of satisfaction on your face when they do. Just a nice little grin of happiness does just fine to piss people off without giving them any way to actually rip on you and make fun of your celebration antics. It worked wonders for me, i made tons of cubs fans mad by playing it calm and subtle.

longshot7
10-18-2003, 07:47 PM
we define ourselves by what we are NOT (Cub fans) - as much as we do by what we ARE (the mf'n White Sox).

that's sports.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-18-2003, 08:11 PM
Here are a few relevant questions that the Cubune's sports editor apparently has never considered.

1.) Do the fans in Columbus, Ohio root for Michigan to win the Rose Bowl on New Year's Day while their own team plays in Orlando's Citrus Bowl?

2.) Does the Ferrari team root for McLaren when their own cars crash or otherwise can't complete an F1 race?

3.) Do Michigan State fans root for Michigan under *any* circumstances?

If there is more than one professional baseball team in Chicago, and those two team compete directly with one another, why is it a surprise to anyone that at least a segment of each team's fans can't stand their opposite number?

How many letters to the editor do the "Sox Fans" that edit the Cubune Sports section receive, and precisely what on earth could they be thinking to publish the one sent them by this Sherman retard?

AMestan
10-18-2003, 09:27 PM
I agree 100% with Palehose's reply. Also, Cub fans don't give a **** about the White Sox so why should I care about the Cubs? I think 90% of the Cub fans are SIMPLETONS! (I've lived on the Gold Coast for the last 7 years, I see these Cub fans everyday). Their beloved stadium? Now thats funny. Before the mid-eighties even Cub fans laughed at their "cigar box", now it's hallowed ground? Give me a break. If the Sox we're in the playoffs I wouldn't care if every Cub fan wanted the Sox to lose, I could care less. As far as these Cub people saying; well their a Chicago team, I say so what! The majority of these "Chicagoans" either moved here or never even went to school in the city or a middle class suburb for that matter. I know what a Chicagoan is, and I doubt that these wannabe "Chicago People" realize that they are laughed at on daily basis by Chicagoans who have a clue; that includes the minority of Cubbie fans who are embarrassed by their betheren on a daily basis.

Talk about jerks! What grown man would walk down the street with a baseball glove on hoping to a catch a fly ball? Sing take me out to the ball game with a purple dinosour? Chant "we want a hit" in the 9th inning when the Cubbies are down by 6 or 7 runs? I could go on and on about the Cubbie way of life, I usually don't post replies, however, I'm outraged that in free society, in a city where two baseball teams exist, that someone would imply that anyone with common sense would EVER cheer for the Cubs.

To all the Cub fans out there I say good for you, just don't preach to me about why I like the Sox, why I could care less about the Cubs, why Wrigleyville and Cub Nation represents the City of Soft Shoulders, why I like night games, why Sosa is a fool, why Kerry Wood isn't Koufax, Lolich, Seaver, Gibson or Morris, why Wrigley Field is a joke and why the Cubs didn't just lose they CHOKED.

Thank You

Lip Man 1
10-19-2003, 12:06 AM
Doogiec:

I'm curious about something you posted. You said the "Sox put a good team on the field and the fans didn't show up."

The Sox drew almost two million for a season that didn't really start until mid June. Before that this team was performing badly.

Just how many fans do you expect them to draw?

Please give me a number because I seriously doubt unless the club is a bona fide contender for a world series title that they will EVER draw more then 2.4 million considering the constant expressway construction.

Lip

GoSox2K3
10-19-2003, 12:32 AM
First of all, WOW - all these replies on this thread today...didn't anyone go out and enjoy the nice weather? :smile:
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Okay - It's the offseason now, so let me take a position that I'm sure will have a lot of people on this board screaming and calling me "traitor" and other such names.
I don't believe that all Sox fans must root against the Cubs. However, I do not like the Cubs and there is nothing wrong with that. I know from experience that most Cub fans - even those who also claim to not like baseball - always root against the Sox.

I have said a million times on these boards that I could not care less about the Cubs, that it's the White Sox I want to see succeed. Now that the playoffs are over for the northsiders, I must admit that way too many White Sox fans were (and maybe still are) way too bitter over the fact that - to a certain extent - the Cubs had some success. I think it's only natural for us to be bitter after seeing our team choke in Sept. It was difficult to watch the Cubs win only 2 more games than us and get to the brink of a pennant. Cub fans would have been bitter and would have resorted to stadium-bashing and spewing attendance figures if the situation were reversed.

The very fact that so many White Sox fans are thrilled, not because the White Sox did well, but because Cub fans are so dissappointed is kind of sad.......for us. I have tried to look back on archives and such to 2000, and I cannot find one single story about Cub fans rallying for Seattle and other such nonsense. Are we now looking for victories within other people's defeats? If so we're doomed..
A majority of Cub fans I know - even "just-moved-to-Chicago-don't-even-like-baseball-but-root-for-the-Cubbies" types rooted against the Sox in 2000 and many gloated about the Sox going "3 and out" in the playoffs. All thru 2000, Cub fans couldn't stand the fact that the Sox were winning. Suddenly attendace figures became a bigger issue than WINS and LOSSES. I remember a vast majority of Cub fans gloating at our LCS defeats in '93 and '83. Finally, almost every Cub fan I met were all too happy in 1988 when it appeared that the Sox were about to move to Florida. Now, they're weeping :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: because Sox fans were rooting for the Marlins? Give me a break!

There are way too many anti-Cub shirts at our ballpark, and not just when we're playing the Cubs. You can hardly have a conversation these days with other White Sox fans without that "wink wink nod nod" shot at Cub fans..
Someone's got to poke fun at the Cubs :smile: The Tribune isn't going to do it.

And lately, some of the best White Sox fans I have known over the years are taking to making the most outlandish statements about baseball and the Cubs - it almost reeks of desperation. Not as outlandish as all the anti-Sox articles I have read in the press over the years. Cub fans have at least as much of a stereotype image of us as we do of them.

We wonder why the Cubs draw and draw at the gate while losing, and we struggle to get 2 million when winning. Maybe it's easily explained by the fact that the White Sox fan base gets increasing protrayed (and many times justifiably so) as bitter. .
I think the key word here is "portrayed". Just based on the way Sox fans are painted in the media, you'd think we were all mono-syllabic simpletons who have had run-ins with the law.

Damn, I've even seen a lot of posts here that talk about "real White Sox fans" not doing this, or not doing that. Who the hell are these people posting, and what makes them think they've cornered the market on what a "real White Sox fan" can or can't do? .
I agree with you. I don't like how alot of the posters on this site say they don't want anyone to attend Sox games unless they are total die hards that will pledge eternal hatred to the Cubs. That sounds like a good recipie for having an avg. attendance of 6,000.

I have an uncle who is 87 years old. He is the survivor of the Bataan Death March, and lives in a VA hospital. Being pretty much confined to bed, the only real thing he had to do this summer is watch the Cubs - he is a huge Cub fan, and contrary to most of the posting on these boards over the past weeks, he has forgotten more about baseball than many "real White Sox fans" will ever know. It was fun watching him wait for the games to start this summer, and I was able to sit with him through a few of them. He was like a little kid as the playoffs approached - it was just great to see. As the Cubs pulled their usual collapse, you could just see the dissappointment in my uncle.
I think stories like this help serve a reminder to us that there are good, life-long fans of any team - even the Cubs. However, it works both ways. I don't remember any Cub fans ever showing sympathy or respect for life long Sox fans who have suffered thru decades of disappointment. Somehow, in the media's eye, Cub fans so real character when they are so die-hard that they hate the Sox. For Sox fans, the same attitude makes us sore losers.

Many of you on this board love to exist within that dissappointment, and that's pretty sad. I now await my own execution from "real White Sox fans".
Like others have said on this thread, a Sox fan rooting for the Cubs to lose is the same as a Michigan fan rooting for Ohio State to lose. That's the way it is in rivalries. The difference is that the Cub fans only like to dish it out. When they're on the receiving end of the criticism, then it's :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

DrCrawdad
10-19-2003, 12:39 AM
I posted this in the morning just before I left for the day. WOW!

Why do I hate the Cubs? First, I don't hate Cub fans.

Three things I've heard from Cub fans in the last week:

1. "Stand outside The Cell, you'll need a flak jacket." - Roe & Garry, WLS Radio.

2. "No one goes to Sox games." - Mark GiangrecoRoman

3. "Sox fans are white-trash." - Roe & Garry, and my brother-in-law.

It's funny to me that when point #1 was said on Roe & Garry no one objected. Make a patently untrue remark, one that is a bearly veiled racist remark and no one corrects it.

And the other two are stupid slams that get said frequently, again virtually without correction.

Now why is that Cub fans or the media don't feel the need to slam Cub fans for these racist tinged, bigoted remarks but they feel we must be reprimanded because we didn't root for the Cubs or dared to cheer their opponents?

One other thing, how many people were in McNally's, 50? The media makes that out to be 50,000. It's just the same as the 2000 playoffs when there were a few anti-Cub signs at the games. You'd have thought that there were 46,000.

Oh, and no one seems to remember that after the Cubs won the NL Central there was a chant of "Southside Sucks." That, of course, barely was reported on.

The perpetual slams on the Sox and Sox fans, that is part of the reason(s) why I hate the Cubs.

39thandWallace
10-19-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Okay - It's the offseason now, so let me take a position that I'm sure will have a lot of people on this board screaming and calling me "traitor" and other such names.

I have said a million times on these boards that I could not care less about the Cubs, that it's the White Sox I want to see succeed. Now that the playoffs are over for the northsiders, I must admit that way too many White Sox fans were (and maybe still are) way too bitter over the fact that - to a certain extent - the Cubs had some success.

The very fact that so many White Sox fans are thrilled, not because the White Sox did well, but because Cub fans are so disappointed is kind of sad.......for us. I have tried to look back on archives and such to 2000, and I cannot find one single story about Cub fans rallying for Seattle and other such nonsense. Are we now looking for victories within other people's defeats? If so we're doomed.

There are way too many anti-Cub shirts at our ballpark, and not just when we're playing the Cubs. You can hardly have a conversation these days with other White Sox fans without that "wink wink nod nod" shot at Cub fans. And lately, some of the best White Sox fans I have known over the years are taking to making the most outlandish statements about baseball and the Cubs - it almost reeks of desperation.

We wonder why the Cubs draw and draw at the gate while losing, and we struggle to get 2 million when winning. Maybe it's easily explained by the fact that the White Sox fan base gets increasing portrayed (and many times justifiably so) as bitter. Damn, I've even seen a lot of posts here that talk about "real White Sox fans" not doing this, or not doing that. Who the hell are these people posting, and what makes them think they've cornered the market on what a "real White Sox fan" can or can't do?

I have an uncle who is 87 years old. He is the survivor of the Bataan Death March, and lives in a VA hospital. Being pretty much confined to bed, the only real thing he had to do this summer is watch the Cubs - he is a huge Cub fan, and contrary to most of the posting on these boards over the past weeks, he has forgotten more about baseball than many "real White Sox fans" will ever know. It was fun watching him wait for the games to start this summer, and I was able to sit with him through a few of them. He was like a little kid as the playoffs approached - it was just great to see. As the Cubs pulled their usual collapse, you could just see the disappointment in my uncle.

Many of you on this board love to exist within that disappointment, and that's pretty sad.

I now await my own execution from "real White Sox fans".

I agree with a lot you are saying, I was at the last homestand against the Twins and the last homestand against the Royals along with 30 other games this year. Win or lose the Sox fans would come out chanting Cubs suck. I don't see how the Cubs sucking had anything to do with the Sox clinching the Central.

minastirith67
10-19-2003, 01:34 AM
I can understand the hate for the Cubs. What I can't understand is why much of Sox fans don't hate the Twins. Why even bother supporting the AL Central champions against the Yankees when they are our main rival? If we had excelled against the Twins we might've made it playing the Yanks. I hate teams that play on artificial turf, and I fully believe that they should tear those stadiums down and make a real ballpark. Next year we need to take the Twins seriously (and maybe not lose a bunch of games to Detroit and Cleveland).

winodj
10-19-2003, 02:13 AM
So here's the thing. My friend A. lives in a house with 14 other people. One of them is a Cub fan. By the NLCS, at least 10 people, including A. were rooting for the Marlins, a couple had become Sox fans. Why? Cause the Cub fan, like many, was so damn annoying.

Mike Royko, now dead - then die hard Cubs fan, said that he actively roots against the Sox when they do well... and he expects Sox fans to root against the Cubs. Its part of being in a two team town.

If the Sox want to draw, they need to make the right moves PR wise... they need to get the right team on the field, in the promotions office, behind the mic. That's when you see attendance start to rise. And only then.

voodoochile
10-19-2003, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by winodj
So here's the thing. My friend A. lives in a house with 14 other people. One of them is a Cub fan. By the NLCS, at least 10 people, including A. were rooting for the Marlins, a couple had become Sox fans. Why? Cause the Cub fan, like many, was so damn annoying.

Mike Royko, now dead - then die hard Cubs fan, said that he actively roots against the Sox when they do well... and he expects Sox fans to root against the Cubs. Its part of being in a two team town.

If the Sox want to draw, they need to make the right moves PR wise... they need to get the right team on the field, in the promotions office, behind the mic. That's when you see attendance start to rise. And only then.

Well said and Welcome Aboard! :D:

winodj
10-19-2003, 02:24 AM
Tanks yo.

ISUSoxfan
10-19-2003, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by ssang
I am an Un-Apologetic Cub Hater! I was raised that way and I'm damn proud of it. Seeing the Cubs lose was Unbelievable fun. I don't care what anyone says, the Cubs suck and I love it when miserable things happen to them and their mronic fans. I would say the 2003 NLCS definatley qualifies as one of the greatest disasters to that team and their loser fans. Yes I love the Sox, but hating the Cubs makes everything THAT much better. This is the way it should be between our fans. Love for one team and hate for the other.

That's the spirit. The great thing about being a Sox fan is that we have two favorite teams. Even after our #1 team let us down in September, we still had a fun October cheering for our #2 team, whoever is playing the Cubs. I'm still cheering for the Fish to beat NY out of gratitude.

I stayed away from this site all season to avoid the negative posts about the Sox, but it was great to come back and see all the anti-cub posts and links the past few days. Thanks to everyone who contributed, and don't ever let anyone make you apologize for hating the Cubs or their most obnoxious fans.

This was a huge choke even by Cub standards, but what makes it even better is that their own fans had a hand in it. Everyone in that area was reaching for the ball, Bartman was just the unlucky goat that it came to. That play did not cost the Cubs the game, but it brought out their choking instincts. Right when it looked like we were hopelessly headed for disaster, a Cubs World Series, the baseball gods intervened. Short of the Sox winning it all, this is the greatest thing that could have happened this year.

hose
10-19-2003, 08:43 AM
I'm surprised somebody on our board beat Grobber to the punch on Sox fans being poor sports with the cub loss.


After the Sox were knocked off this year a fellow worker must have told me "they gone" 10-15 times.

Following the cub collapse I made sure to get over to his office on Thursday. I just stood there and didn't say a word as he tried to put a few sentences together. I told him that I wasn't going to unload on him in his time of grief , but come winter it will be open season.

His exact words were " I wouldn't respect you as a Sox fan if you didn't ."

doogiec
10-19-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Doogiec:

I'm curious about something you posted. You said the "Sox put a good team on the field and the fans didn't show up."

The Sox drew almost two million for a season that didn't really start until mid June. Before that this team was performing badly.

Just how many fans do you expect them to draw?

Please give me a number because I seriously doubt unless the club is a bona fide contender for a world series title that they will EVER draw more then 2.4 million considering the constant expressway construction.

Lip

First, the quote is being taken out of context. JoeCrede and I were discussing media comments on Sox attendance during the 2000 season, not this year. I actually thought the Sox drew reasonably well this year considering the train wreck start to the season.

During the 2000 season, the Sox got off to a tremendous start (17 of 25 in April, 50 of 71 by the end of June) and maintained throughout the season. They finished with the best record in the AL. Yet we were outdrawn at the gate by 8 other AL teams. And by 11 the next season.

In answer to your question on how many fans we should draw, I believe that if we are in the top 2 or 3 teams record wise throughout the season we should be near the top in attendance (or at least top 5), as we were in the early 90's. If we are around .500, somewhere in the middle of the pack. Below .500, the park can be empty for all I care.

It is a legitimate story for the media to report when the best team (in 2000) in the league can't draw as many fans as many of the worst teams. Don't expect the Chicago media to ignore or sugar coat that.

doogiec
10-19-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by hose
I'm surprised somebody on our board beat Grobber to the punch on Sox fans being poor sports with the cub loss.


After the Sox were knocked off this year a fellow worker must have told me "they gone" 10-15 times.

Following the cub collapse I made sure to get over to his office on Thursday. I just stood there and didn't say a word as he tried to put a few sentences together. I told him that I wasn't going to unload on him in his time of grief , but come winter it will be open season.

His exact words were " I wouldn't respect you as a Sox fan if you didn't ."

Seeing as the Cubs won more games than the Sox this year, won a post season series (which we haven't done since '17) and won 3 LCS games (which we haven't done ever), what exactly are you going to unload on him about?

Ripping on a team that did way better than ours this season reinforces the idea that Sox fans are more knowledgeable how?

hose
10-19-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
Seeing as the Cubs won more games than the Sox this year, won a post season series (which we haven't done since '17) and won 3 LCS games (which we haven't done ever), what exactly are you going to unload on him about?

Ripping on a team that did way better than ours this season reinforces the idea that Sox fans are more knowledgeable how?


I don't believe the cub had won anything when the Sox were knocked off and the "they gone" started coming in.

Save the knowledgeable crap reference

kittle42
10-19-2003, 01:30 PM
Quite simply,

No one thinks it is strange when a person likes/loves a particular team.

Why then is it so questioned when a person dislikes/hates/loathes a particular team?

valposoxfan
10-19-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
voodoochili - I agree with the assertion that some Cub fans pull against the WHite Sox and visa versa, but what I think is my issue here is that there are degrees to it.

What northside bar was giving out free drinks when the White Sox were playing Seattle a few years ago? None that I know of. If I'm mistaken, I invite anybody on these boards to let me know, but pleeeeeeeeeease don't simply start spouting off generalities about "all the bars were doing it" or "the media didn't cover the bars doing it", because - although I'm getting old - I can still remember three years back, and I'm sure I would have remembered if some sort of anti-White Sox sentiment were sweeping Cubdom.

I hope that all White Sox fans keep cheering for the beloved, and if they want to cheer against the Cubs fine, but when it reaches belligerant or distracting proportions it's not good for the White Sox or their fan base. Hell I just shut off WSCR and guys are still calling and hurling invectives at the Cubs and their fans. In the short run, I'm sure it makes these guys feel great that the Cubs lost, but in the long run, what does it say about a guy calling up a radio and bleating on and on about how the Cubs suck when the Cubs were within a couple of innings of the World Series, and we didn't even get close? In the long run, this is not good.

Cubs fans already get everything served to them on a silver platter. Why would they care what the Sox are doing? Even if they win they can just go back to their Cubdom fantasy land. Cubs fans are always glorified and put up on a pedestal, that is why you do not see parties that root against the Sox. They have everything already. They don't care. Sox fans are peons to them. The media is the main reason why Cubs fans have this mindset. We are the evil troublemakers from the South Side that don't care about our team. They have the stadium, the neighborhood, the lovable losers tag. They feel they are beloved and it doesn't matter what other people think, they are the greatest fans because the media tell them so.
This is why Sox fans openly root against the Cubs. That is why I do it and am not ashamed. Trust my King, if the Sox were in the playoffs as well, I would not even devote a millisecond of my time and thought process to the Northside, unless we met them in the World Series.

vegyrex
10-19-2003, 02:36 PM
I became a Sox fan in May of 1969.

I became a Cubs basher in June of 1969

The only other Sox fan I knew was my aunt and she was not into bashing the Cubs. She took grief from co workers who were Cub fans but she never returned fire.

Listening to Cubs fans you'd think their team won as many titles as the Yankees.
Then I picked up a baseball records book and it had the final standings of all the teams from 1901 to 1993.

What an eye opener!!

Turns out the Cubs are the most pathetic team in major league baseball over the last 63 years.

When a Cub fan bashes the Sox, I point out how the Cubs only have 16 winning seasons in 63 years. The Cub fan will almost always say "Be nice now"

Yeah right, just a moment ago you weren't nice to the Sox.

Cub fans are extremely thin skinned.

Sox4Life
10-19-2003, 02:38 PM
I read that article in the trib. And all i have to say is he doesn't know what it's like to be a Sox fan on the NORTH side. I've been raised on the northside as a sox fan. It's so hard because you're so few..but that's what makes you stronger. But in the process of cheering for your team, there are these people....these LOUD MOUTH people that (for the most part, there are exceptions) are oblivious to what it means to be a die-hard. they just like hearing themselves talk about what they think is baseball. OF COURSE i root against the cubs. i find their little blue-machine and franchise built on losing a travesty to the game. Sosa is a joke. Prior is the only one on the team who i am willing to recognize as a great pitcher. That's as far as I'm willing to go. To me, It's only a matter of geography that they are located in chicago. They might as well be from cleveland or MINNESOTA for god sake. I hate them enough. They take all the attention as far as baseball goes in the city and SO MANY, not all mind you, but SO MANY of them don't really LOVE THE GAME. When more of your fans are fair weather than die-hard.....good luck getting any respect from THIS SOX FAN

ssang
10-19-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
Cubs fans already get everything served to them on a silver platter. Why would they care what the Sox are doing? Even if they win they can just go back to their Cubdom fantasy land. Cubs fans are always glorified and put up on a pedestal, that is why you do not see parties that root against the Sox. They have everything already. They don't care. Sox fans are peons to them. The media is the main reason why Cubs fans have this mindset. We are the evil troublemakers from the South Side that don't care about our team. They have the stadium, the neighborhood, the lovable losers tag. They feel they are beloved and it doesn't matter what other people think, they are the greatest fans because the media tell them so.
This is why Sox fans openly root against the Cubs. That is why I do it and am not ashamed. Trust my King, if the Sox were in the playoffs as well, I would not even devote a millisecond of my time and thought process to the Northside, unless we met them in the World Series.

I like what you have said here. I agree with you 100%

alohafri
10-19-2003, 03:01 PM
In the end, it's everything that Valpo said. The cub fans don't root against the Sox like we root against them because THEY DON'T HAVE TO!! They have all the respect and love of the whole world, thanks to the media. They are America's Team. Does that make me jealous? No, it makes me angry that most of Chicago and the rest of the US can't see what Sox fans know. So I channel my anger into every scrub loss and every scrub mishap. That's how I deal with the aggravation of knowing that the Sox will NEVER get the adoration and respect that the (un)lovable losers get, even if they (the Sox) deserve it.



(mrs. Aloha)

alohafri
10-19-2003, 03:04 PM
As a postscript to my previous post, I'd like to add that the scrubs don't deserve respect and don't deserve to go to the WS just because they have more fans, a better ballpark, and better bars around their park.

Respect should be EARNED and not handed to a team by the media.


Mrs. Aloha

hsnterprize
10-19-2003, 04:31 PM
Hmmmm....

I've only read a few of these posts, and I contend that while those who believe we Sox fans should've supported the Cubs is nothing but a whole bunch of hogwash, let me expound on why I didn't root for the Cubs on both a personal and professional perspective.

I'm a news and sports producer/reporter for a radio station here in Chicago, and like much of you, I was subject to the same "Cub Love" that was going on here in Chicago and around the world seemingly. Now before you think, "You were a part of the hype.", let me make something clear...when I reported on the Cubs success, I made it clear that as a professional, I would report on the Cubs win or lose. However, as a fan, I would NOT root the Cubs to win. In fact, my station manager was filling in the for morning host one day, and he jokingly made fun of me that I wasn't sailing on the "Cub Love Boat". Even though I touted that I'm a Sox fan, it was very overwhelming to hear constant praise for the Cubs in the midst of a Sox choke in September. I've never personally or professionally endured such trying times. But...when the Cubs lost game 6 of that series against Florida...let alone game 7, I was overjoyed. I'll elaborate on that more later in my post.

In the room where I work every morning, I see 4 TV monitors clicked on the morning news shows. So, I see channels 2, 5, 7 and 9 at the same time. I expected channel 9 (WGN to those of you who aren't from the Chicagoland area) to be the Cubs' official cheerleading station, but the others weren't too far behind. Anchors from all areas of reporting, from news to traffic to sports to entertainment had something in their reports having to do with the Cubs, from traffic and parking restrictions around the ballpark, to movie starts who say they've been Cub fans since they were waiting tables in a Hollywood diner, to a couple who renovated their Lakeview home's basement into a Cub-loving sports bar. I tell you that while I could understand why the Cubs were such the "big story", the constant cheerleading by my colleagues in the press was enough to make my skin crawl. And even though I only paid close attention to the morning shows, I also noticed the cheerleading getting stronger on ALL the local TV networks on the afternoon and evening newscasts.

It's one thing to talk about the Cubs for 20 minutes out of a 30 minute newscast, but when the evening news is taking place either on the top of the Cubby Bear, or some rooftop across from the right field seats, that's simply ridiculous. I mean...every local news shop had a team right around the ballpark, with their fieldreporters somewhere either in or near the stadium. And it was simply pathetic to watch. It was nothing but pure bliss to see the Cub lovers in the media with their heads hanging when the flubs lost game 6...and here's why.

On the morning of that game, every reporter I saw on TV basically went on the Love Boat and said that winning game 6 was "no problem", "inevitibale", a "certainty", and other guarantees that Cubs fans would finally havea chance to celebrate. The only voice of reason in all the hype was Fire Commisioner James Joyce, who when asked whether or not alarms would go off when the Cubs won, he said no because he "didn't want Cubs fans to drop their Chardonay." He's a Sox fan all the way, and I need to thank him for the quip.

Anyway, when the Cubs lost game 6, there was a collective shock and awe being reflected by the press. "THIS WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!!!!!" was the collective outcry from Cub-loving reporters all over the dial. Even when the evening news casts from Wrigley said that Kerry Wood was on the mound for game 7, there wasn't that aura of arrogance...oh, I mean confidence, by the local reporters about how the fans were acting and wanting the Flubs to win the pennant. All the wrath on Steve Bartman was building up, and it was such a joy to see the Cub Love Boat start to sink. And I loved seeing the reporters try so hard to put a "positive spin" on the choke...every "Jonny..." and "Jenny Come Lately Cub Fan" was about to burst into tears...and with all due respoect to my colleagues in the press...IT SERVES THEM RIGHT!!!!! Next time...stop being cheerleaders, and start being reporters. You'd actually get a lot more credibility points if you reported, and not cheered as arrogantly as you did!!!!!

I don't think it's wrong to root against the Cubs in this case...or any other case either. Even though the Cubs loss didn't do anything for the Sox to make them better, I think this is more of a "moral victory" (if there is such a thing) for Sox fans who were tormented with everything Cub for the past few weeks. And although I don't condone things like trash talking to kids or acting totally stpid in the name of rubbing it in, I think it's okay to let Cubs fans know that not only did we NOT supprot their club, but we're happier than ever they lost. We can talk about how this affects the Sox as far as how they will try to one-up their competition all we want. However, this is a Cubs loss I will relish in for a long time. The collective attitude around Chicago was so down...and under normal circumstances, I'd be right with my hometown. However, considering why Chicago was so down...I was beside myself with happiness. I imagined myself standing along the banks of Navy Pier watching a large cruise ship sinking to the depths of Lake Michigan with Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On" playing in the background. If you've seen "Titanic", try to imagine the scene where the ship is vertical and going into the water. You're seeing people falling straight into the water, and few survivors are on the paddleboats watching in awe as the mighty TItanic, the ship that wasn't supposed to sink, go into the cold, frigid waters. That's how it was to me...all the bandwagoning Cubs fans, the media, and all that's associated with "All things Cub" were fighting for survival as the mighty Cubs Love Boat was going down. And if all of America was on that ship, then oh well...let 'em all swim. I only have a few life preservers to spare, and I'm saving those for the real, intelligent Cubs fans who are actually in sincere sadness over the loss, and not all those who decided that Wrigley Field was the latest place to party and to be a part of the bandwagon.

If rooting against the Cubs and wanting my Sox to win makes me a "bad sport" as the author says, then so be it. When Cubs fans root against the Sox when they make it to the post season, andcelebrate in front of Wrigley Field when the Sox lost, then I'll await this mope's piece in the Trib...oh, I'm sorry...the CUBune. But...we intelligent, WHITE SOX fans know that won't happen. Even when the Sox win the World Series, CUBune authors will still try to make us Sox fans look like the bad guys. However, that's to be expected.

Jerko
10-19-2003, 07:34 PM
So I guess everyone who buys the Trib should buy the Sun Times too since it is a Chicago thing. Maybe if the Tribsters look at it that way they will ****.

jabrch
10-19-2003, 07:42 PM
I just got back in town. I spent the week on vacation in Arizona where I was subjected to essentially the same sort of non-sense that all of you were subjected to. Everything was Cubbies this or Cubbies that. I wore my Sox hat to the pool and even wore my WSI - Hell Yeah T-shirt there. People kept asking me if I am a Cubs fan. (I guess they don't understand the dynamic in this city...)

I have to be honest. I was cheering for Chicago - not loudly - not even audible enough for anyone else to hear me...but I was. I didn't want to see the Cubs win. I wanted to see the Sox win. But since that couldn't happen, I looked at the Cubs winning as being an indepenedent event that wouldnt impact the Sox directly. So, I did hope that the Cubs won. Now, I don't think it is bad to root against them. I have done that myself many times. I don't consider it being a poor sport - that's nonsense. That's the nature of the Cubs/Sox fans relationship. I would never jump the Cubs bandwaggon. I would never cheer for them to win in the regular season. But at this point, I just wanted something good for someone in Chicago - even if it wasn't me.

Now - that said - after they lost, I was smiling and happy. I certainly am happier - big picture - that they lost than if they would have won... But deep down, I am a Chicagoan more than a Cubs-hater. A Sox fan first...A Bears fan and a Bulls fan...but also a Chicago fan....

Let the abuse begin!

BTW - good to be back. I missed the WSI banter during the Championship Series.

TornLabrum
10-19-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
On the morning of that game, every reporter I saw on TV basically went on the Love Boat and said that winning game 6 was "no problem", "inevitibale", a "certainty", and other guarantees that Cubs fans would finally havea chance to celebrate. The only voice of reason in all the hype was Fire Commisioner James Joyce, who when asked whether or not alarms would go off when the Cubs won, he said no because he "didn't want Cubs fans to drop their Chardonay." He's a Sox fan all the way, and I need to thank him for the quip.

Anyway, when the Cubs lost game 6, there was a collective shock and awe being reflected by the press. "THIS WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!!!!!" was the collective outcry from Cub-loving reporters all over the dial. Even when the evening news casts from Wrigley said that Kerry Wood was on the mound for game 7, there wasn't that aura of arrogance...oh, I mean confidence, by the local reporters about how the fans were acting and wanting the Flubs to win the pennant. All the wrath on Steve Bartman was building up, and it was such a joy to see the Cub Love Boat start to sink. And I loved seeing the reporters try so hard to put a "positive spin" on the choke...every "Jonny..." and "Jenny Come Lately Cub Fan" was about to burst into tears...and with all due respoect to my colleagues in the press...IT SERVES THEM RIGHT!!!!! Next time...stop being cheerleaders, and start being reporters. You'd actually get a lot more credibility points if you reported, and not cheered as arrogantly as you did!!!!!

I don't think it's wrong to root against the Cubs in this case...or any other case either. Even though the Cubs loss didn't do anything for the Sox to make them better, I think this is more of a "moral victory" (if there is such a thing) for Sox fans who were tormented with everything Cub for the past few weeks. And although I don't condone things like trash talking to kids or acting totally stpid in the name of rubbing it in, I think it's okay to let Cubs fans know that not only did we NOT supprot their club, but we're happier than ever they lost. We can talk about how this affects the Sox as far as how they will try to one-up their competition all we want. However, this is a Cubs loss I will relish in for a long time. The collective attitude around Chicago was so down...and under normal circumstances, I'd be right with my hometown. However, considering why Chicago was so down...I was beside myself with happiness. I imagined myself standing along the banks of Navy Pier watching a large cruise ship sinking to the depths of Lake Michigan with Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On" playing in the background. If you've seen "Titanic", try to imagine the scene where the ship is vertical and going into the water. You're seeing people falling straight into the water, and few survivors are on the paddleboats watching in awe as the mighty TItanic, the ship that wasn't supposed to sink, go into the cold, frigid waters. That's how it was to me...all the bandwagoning Cubs fans, the media, and all that's associated with "All things Cub" were fighting for survival as the mighty Cubs Love Boat was going down. And if all of America was on that ship, then oh well...let 'em all swim. I only have a few life preservers to spare, and I'm saving those for the real, intelligent Cubs fans who are actually in sincere sadness over the loss, and not all those who decided that Wrigley Field was the latest place to party and to be a part of the bandwagon. [/FONT]

You know, now that you mention it, the arrogance of the Cubs fans, media, etc. was very similar to the arrogance of the builders, crew, etc. of the Titanic before she went down. Great analogy!

PaleHoseGeorge
10-19-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
You know, now that you mention it, the arrogance of the Cubs fans, media, etc. was very similar to the arrogance of the builders, crew, etc. of the Titanic before she went down. Great analogy!

LOL! The Cubs season as the final scene from the movie Titanic!

:moron
"That's makes me Leonardo DiCaprio."

:giangreco
"And me Kate Winslet!"

:)

greenpeach
10-19-2003, 09:17 PM
It got so bad that I thought Jeannie Zelasko was going to wear an Ernie Banks jersey & kiss the goat ( or worse) on the set if the Flubs had won the pennant.

Here in Atlanta most of my friend's didn't jump on the Flub's bandwagon. We all had a good laugh looking at the forlorn faces in the crowd after game six. One friend of mine, a Yankee fan, said a Flub supporter came up to him as he was wearing his Yankee cap outside of the gym. The Flubbie said that he hoped that two great franchises like the Yankees & Flubs could meet in the series. My friend almost wet himself because he was laughing so hard. Idiots.

Hokiesox
10-20-2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by alohafri
Why do Sox fans hate the Cubs? A lack of respect. Even Marlins fans can relate to that. How many cub fans will root for the Marlins in the WS?


Marlins make to World Series, but still don't get respect
By DAVE BARRY
The Miami Herald

OK, Marlins fans: We have to go through this one more time.

I'm talking about getting disrespected by the fans of the other team, because we're not deserving enough.

We went through it with the Giants fans, who felt their team deserved to win because they had Barry Bonds, plus they were supposed to win the World Series LAST year.

Then we went through it -- big time -- with the Cubs fans , who felt they REALLY deserved to win because (a) the Cubs have not won anything since the glaciers retreated from North America; (b) the Cubs have a better ballpark than we do, with all the history and the ivy and the blah blah blah; the Cubs fans are SO knowledgeable about baseball, as opposed to us lame-o Marlins fans, a bunch of bandwagon jumpers who know so little about baseball that we would probably do something REALLY stupid, like interfere with a catchable foul ball hit by an opposing player.

Listen, Cubs fans: We feel sorry for you, really. But stop whining already. And leave that poor fan alone, unless you truly believe that, by touching the ball, he caused the Marlins to score eight runs in that game, and nine in the next. Your team lost because THE MARLINS PLAYED BETTER, OK? It's NOT because of some ''curse.'' The supernatural had nothing to do with it! Unless you count a Miami woman I know named Tina, who's from Nicaragua, and who revealed, after the Marlins beat the Cubs, that during the crucial eighth inning of Game 6 she performed a type of witchcraft called brujeria. But that did not violate any National League rule.

Anyway, my point, Marlins fans, is that neither the Giants fans nor the Cubs fans respected us. And now we're going to go through it again, only this time it will be much worse, because it will be New Yorkers.

I don't mean to insult all New Yorkers. I myself grew up in the New York City area, and I know that there are many New Yorkers who are thoughtful, gracious and classy. But there are also Yankees fans. They can best be described by an eight-letter word, beginning with the letter ''a,'' which I cannot write in a family newspaper.

Oh, what the heck, I'm going to write it anyway: The word is ''arrogant.'' Yankees fans believe their team should win the World Series every single year, because the Yankees have a Great Winning Tradition, defined as ''a really rich owner.'' That would be George Steinwhacker, who overcame the handicap of being born wealthy to become even more wealthy, and who buys all the best players from other teams. Sometimes he buys them during actual games, dropping cash on opposing players from his helicopter until they change into Yankees uniforms right on the field.

So the Yankees fans will be very confident, and the Yankees will be heavily favored. The entire rest of the nation will be rooting against us, because the Marlins had the insensitivity to beat the beloved Cubs, instead of, I don't know, deliberately striking out in key situations.

In short, Marlins fans: Nobody wants us to win, and nobody respects us. Fox Sports has announced that it will not even be broadcasting the Marlins' halves of the innings.

''When the Marlins are batting,'' stated a Fox executive, ``we will broadcast our new sitcom Wanda at Large, which we feel will have a greater appeal to our viewers.''

OK, fine. Let the rest of the world disrespect the Marlins, and their fans. It didn't matter when we played the Giants; it didn't matter when we played the Cubs; and it won't matter when we play the Steinwhackers. Because we don't need tradition, and we don't need history. What we have is better: A, plucky, spunky team that never gives up; a feisty 106-year-old manager who doesn't give a crap what anybody thinks; and a bunch of fans who maybe jumped on the bandwagon a little late, but who plan to make up for it by partying EXTRA long when we win the World Series.

Plus, we have Tina.

(Mrs. Aloha)

The Evil Empire Steinwhackers. I like that!

Iwritecode
10-20-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
First, the quote is being taken out of context. JoeCrede and I were discussing media comments on Sox attendance during the 2000 season, not this year. I actually thought the Sox drew reasonably well this year considering the train wreck start to the season.

During the 2000 season, the Sox got off to a tremendous start (17 of 25 in April, 50 of 71 by the end of June) and maintained throughout the season. They finished with the best record in the AL. Yet we were outdrawn at the gate by 8 other AL teams. And by 11 the next season.

In answer to your question on how many fans we should draw, I believe that if we are in the top 2 or 3 teams record wise throughout the season we should be near the top in attendance (or at least top 5), as we were in the early 90's. If we are around .500, somewhere in the middle of the pack. Below .500, the park can be empty for all I care.

It is a legitimate story for the media to report when the best team (in 2000) in the league can't draw as many fans as many of the worst teams. Don't expect the Chicago media to ignore or sugar coat that.

Here's some numbers for you:

Let's say to be in the top five in attendance the Sox need to draw at least 3,000,000. To do that, the Sox (or any team for that matter) have to average 36,585 fans per game.

What exactly was the Sox season ticket base in 2000? 6K maybe 7K? I know for a fact that it was under 10K. This means they would have had to sell 25K+ in walkups that for every single home game that year!!!

I don't believe there's a team in MLB that can do that, much less a team that hadn't done much in the previous 5 years and wasn't expected to do a lot in 2000. By the time people actually started believing this team could do something, the season was already half over. You're missing the whole point though. The fans did show up. Enough to have the second-largest increase in MLB from the previous year. Only Seattle had a larger increase and that was because they got a new stadium.

Attendance in not going to jump from 1.5 million to 3 million over the course of one year, I don't care what team it is. The only way that will happen is to win and continue to win year after year. If the Sox would have taken the divsion in '01 and '02 I would just about guarantee the attendance would have been soaring for this past year. Just quit being like the media and expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon because the team played well for 4 months. Wait until they play well for 4 years...

Hangar18
10-20-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
You know, now that you mention it, the arrogance of the Cubs fans, media, etc. was very similar to the arrogance of the builders, crew, etc. of the Titanic before she went down. Great analogy!


THat was a Great Analogy is Right. I second, third, Fourth
the Motion Hsnterprize. Im laughing my ass of right now....

PaleHoseGeorge
10-20-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
....You're missing the whole point though. The fans did show up. Enough to have the second-largest increase in MLB from the previous year. Only Seattle had a larger increase and that was because they got a new stadium.

Attendance in not going to jump from 1.5 million to 3 million over the course of one year, I don't care what team it is. The only way that will happen is to win and continue to win year after year. If the Sox would have taken the divsion in '01 and '02 I would just about guarantee the attendance would have been soaring for this past year. Just quit being like the media and expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon because the team played well for 4 months. Wait until they play well for 4 years...

Well stated. I've come to expect the media to draw all the wrong conclusions in their analysis about Sox attendance woes. They are ignorant by choice and it is just sooooo much easier to claim Sox Fans are bad fans to explain any attendance problems. That dolt Mark Giangreco is the ringleader of this kind vapid thinking. He never met an empty blue seat he didn't love.

What really upsets me is when Sox Fans begin believing this ****, too. It's not our job to sell season tickets, and it's not our job to figure out how to get more of ourselves out to the ballpark every April through September. (Forget about October baseball because it simply doesn't happen frequently enough to matter much one way or another.)

Sox Fans who piss about other Sox Fans not attending enough baseball games are truly clueless. They would be better off if they never read or heard a single comment written in the media about the subject. It's truly disgusting.

AsInWreck
10-20-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by doogiec

The Sox put a good team on the field, and the fans did not show up. I don't know what other factors may have caused this, but I'm open to hearing them.

But if you look at our attendance the last several years, we're usually in the bottom half of the AL. Don't expect the media to ignore that.

Look at the Sox attendance in the few years before the strike of 1994. Pretty good. 2nd in the AL in '91,3rd in '92 and '93. It was not physically possible for the Sox to meet the attendance of the teams in front of them, as the average attendance of those teams exceeded Comiskey's capacity. Then in strike-shortened '94, the average attendence fell to a meager 32,000 per game, as the black storm clouds of the pending strike began to form, threatening to wash out not just the season but the sacred world series as well, which in the history of the game, through world war and depression, had never been cancelled. And lo and behold, who could Sox fans see in his little prop plane dusting the clouds but our very own Jerry Reinsdorf.
At the time, of course, the Sox were fielding probably 1 of the 2 teams since divisional play started that had a legitimate chance of bringing a Series to the South Side.
Reinsdorf, as has been well documented, was one of the primary instigators in the strike.
Sox fans would not forget, and attendance has suffered to this day as a result. The same thing happened in Montreal and Minnesota - which prior to '94 were not considered poor markets. Remember, Kirby Puckett at one point, I believe maybe '91, was the highest paid player in the history of the game.
Montreal in '94 also probably had the best shot at the series of any team they have put together.
And if there is one difference between Sox and Cubs fans, it is that Sox fans are not lemmings ready to jump off the cliff of perpetual losing. The Sox had their best chance in years, and Reinsdorf helped blow it, not just for the Sox but the whole game of baseball. Let's face it, the game still has never been the same. Prior to '94, there were many players, like Fisk and Guillen, Puckett, Kirk Gibson, Pete Rose, every team had them, who played w/ fire and personality. Today you mainly get guys w/ blank expressions and the only time you see much emotion is when they think the ump blew a call. Anyway, that's beside the point.
Sox fans simply refused to just come back in '95 and say, hey that's okay, we don't mind that we as fans were screwed. To this day, my dad, who used to go to 15-20 games a year despite a 3 hour drive, has not set foot in comiskey since '94, and refuses to do so until Reinsdorf is gone. I suspect there are thousands more like him.
I think the lack of attendance even now almost 10 years later, is a direct result. And personally I think that Sox fans- and the Twins and Expos fans - should be praised for saying "enough". Minnesota isn't a bad market, it's an intelligent market that can't stand to be lied to and short changed. Its just a shame that more fans didn't do the same, in my opinion. Cubs fans, for example, just kept coming, because what is so important about the integrity of the game, or winning, or the Series?

The strike of course was just the latest incident where Reinsdorf screwed Sox fans, starting in the early 80's when he had games taken off WGN and started a pay per view service. This prevented existing and potential new fans from watching the exciting '83 season, and continued after strike w/ the white flag trade, which turned out not to be such a bad trade, but of course, the Sox were still in the race, and any Sox fan in forgiving mood at that point, was no longer so forgiving.

woodenleg
10-20-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
THat was a Great Analogy is Right. I second, third, Fourth
the Motion Hsnterprize. Im laughing my ass of right now....

....and every bit as schmaltzy as that movie & its theme song!

Dadawg_77
10-20-2003, 01:35 PM
94 was bad but what happen in 97 and 98 sealed the deal. I read these stories like those events are ancient history now, but it takes longer then 6 years to heal those wounds. MLB attendance dropped across the board in 94, the Sox fall off was about average in the MLB. The rest of the MLB rebound in 98 but the Sox did not, two reasons, first the rebound was cause in part by the chase on Morris record which was played out in Wrigley as well as Bush. Since the Sosa was the story, he garnered the attendance that year, which may have gone to the Sox.

Second and more importantly, Sox fans felt stabbed in the back JR and company the year before. If the Sox had done nothing, White Sox fans would have been mad, but would not have disowned the team. But the Sox did the unthinkable in a middle of a sports race, they gave up. The Sox said we can not make up this 3 1/2 game lead. Unlike this year where the Sox were facing 7 1/2 hole and Kenny said "damn the torpedoes full speed ahead." Had the Sox not made the White Flag trade, the attendance wouldn't be at these lows. How many season ticket holders quit the team that year? How many long and suffering fans, just gave up to save themselves from the suffering? White Flag while it netted us a couple of prospects who turned out, what do we have to say for it now? Who knows maybe if the Sox went full speed a head, we would be talking how the Sox could beat the Marlins in the playoffs unlike the Cubs. But to give up is inexcusable.

So while Cubs and Red Sox fans complain about curse at least their ownership didn't give up on two season which could have been.

AsInWreck
10-20-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The rest of the MLB rebound in 98 but the Sox did not, two reasons, first the rebound was cause in part by the chase on Morris record which was played out in Wrigley as well as Bush. Since the Sosa was the story, he garnered the attendance that year, which may have gone to the Sox.



And what a coincidence this huge homerun explosion occurring after MLB was reeling from fan backlash. To me, that eroded my appreciation of the game even further. It just didn't, and still doesn't, seem legitimate to me. Gladly, though a little more parity between the hitters and pitchers has been established the last 2 years since they started calling the strike zone closer to the rule book definition, instead of the 4" x 4" area umps seemed to be calling unless glavine,maddux or smoltz were pitching.

AsInWreck
10-20-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
THen I noticed they started getting attention for "beautiful" wrigley field. I remembered NEVER HAVING HEARD any of that nonsense before, and why are they saying that a lot lately?

I don't mean to disagree w/ your overall point, but I think a big reason why you started to hear that more is because by then other classic parks like comiskey and tiger stadium were torn down. Wrigley and Fenway are the last ones standing, and you'll hear the same things said about fenway.

chuckn98229
10-20-2003, 03:57 PM
Why didn't I cheer for the cubs? Because there is absolutely nothing there to like.

Why did I root against the cubs? Because there is an awful lot there to loathe.

Cheaters and Liars should never win.

doogiec
10-20-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well stated. I've come to expect the media to draw all the wrong conclusions in their analysis about Sox attendance woes. They are ignorant by choice and it is just sooooo much easier to claim Sox Fans are bad fans to explain any attendance problems. That dolt Mark Giangreco is the ringleader of this kind vapid thinking. He never met an empty blue seat he didn't love.

What really upsets me is when Sox Fans begin believing this ****, too. It's not our job to sell season tickets, and it's not our job to figure out how to get more of ourselves out to the ballpark every April through September. (Forget about October baseball because it simply doesn't happen frequently enough to matter much one way or another.)

Sox Fans who piss about other Sox Fans not attending enough baseball games are truly clueless. They would be better off if they never read or heard a single comment written in the media about the subject. It's truly disgusting.

Assuming this is directed toward me, I was not "pissing about other Sox Fans" failing to show up. My comment is merely that when attendance is low (and yes, 9th out of 14 is not high, no matter how crappy it was the year before) it is not the duty of the Chicago media to sugarcoat it with the official Sox marketing department spin. I want the truth from the media, not some White Sox version of Cubbie KoolAid. As you can tell by the next year's attendance, this was not a upward trend but instead a minor blip. I DID NOT, however, indicate that the fans not showing up was the fault of White Sox fans. There's a million theories out there was to why, none of which are my concern. Its my job to enjoy the game, not try to force others out there. But to say the media should ignore the problem is doing a disservice to Sox fans, as we all know that the attendance will be the excuse for not increasing the payroll.

The only time I "piss about other Sox fans" related to attendance is when the park is packed for the Sox/Cubs series and then 2/3 empty for divisional games right before and after. And I reserve the right to "piss" about that forever.

Chrisaway
10-20-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
adsit - That's my point exactly.

Does Larry (who I will have very little to do with in the future) reflect on you? No. Now let's say there were 500 Larrys. Still probably not. But if you start getting huge numbers of Larrys out there - like it or not - you will start being associated with them via the fact that you cheer for the White Sox.

My hope is that we're not seeing the beginning of Larrydom amongst White Sox fans. But if history is any indication, every time Cubs make it into the playoffs, the volume of this anti-Cub attitude seems to get louder and louder. It was never louder than the past couple of weeks, and it seems to be dying down much slower than I thought it would.
My experience with a "larrylike" cubs fan at the age of 9 years old was what made me a Sox fan in the first place. I was at a bar with friends in wrigleyville during game 7 of the Cubs Choke and I didnt heckle them at all. i just did what I always do, I wore my sox hat proud.

doogiec
10-20-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Here's some numbers for you:

Let's say to be in the top five in attendance the Sox need to draw at least 3,000,000. To do that, the Sox (or any team for that matter) have to average 36,585 fans per game.

What exactly was the Sox season ticket base in 2000? 6K maybe 7K? I know for a fact that it was under 10K. This means they would have had to sell 25K+ in walkups that for every single home game that year!!!

I don't believe there's a team in MLB that can do that, much less a team that hadn't done much in the previous 5 years and wasn't expected to do a lot in 2000. By the time people actually started believing this team could do something, the season was already half over. You're missing the whole point though. The fans did show up. Enough to have the second-largest increase in MLB from the previous year. Only Seattle had a larger increase and that was because they got a new stadium.

Attendance in not going to jump from 1.5 million to 3 million over the course of one year, I don't care what team it is. The only way that will happen is to win and continue to win year after year. If the Sox would have taken the divsion in '01 and '02 I would just about guarantee the attendance would have been soaring for this past year. Just quit being like the media and expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon because the team played well for 4 months. Wait until they play well for 4 years...

I've been waiting since birth for the Sox to play well for 4 years straight.

As I mentioned in another post a few minutes ago, I'm not blaming the attendance problem on Sox fans. I am stating that it is irresponsible for the media to ignore it, however, as it does affect the team's supposed payroll cap.

Between 1989 and 1991, the attendance jumped almost one million fans per year. Obviously related to the new ball park rather than the team, but it proves that, yes, that many tickets can be sold.

This year we'd only need to draw a little better that 2.4 million to rank out 5th. The fact that the Sox are unable to sell 10000 season tickets in a market this size is an indictment of White Sox marketing, not the fans.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-20-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
....This year we'd only need to draw a little better that 2.4 million to rank out 5th. The fact that the Sox are unable to sell 10000 season tickets in a market this size is an indictment of White Sox marketing, not the fans.

Indeed! This is the essential point that is entirely missed when the media claims we're "bad" fans, or "boneheaded" fans, or "poor" fans. This has nothing to do with Sox Fans, but the ineptitude of Sox Marketing.

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, this was my only point in that earlier post. We've had countless posts from innummerable posters complaining about Sox Fans not coming out to the ballpark. Dave Wills and Bill Melton spent most of the summer in 2000 begging fans to come out every night on their pre- and post-game show. They finally quit doing it because the problem is really beyond their control to fix.

It's up to the Sox to sell their product, not Sox Fans. They're doing a lousy job of it. So naturally we fans get blamed. Don't we always?

:giangreco :reinsy :moron :morrisey
"Yep!"

AsInWreck
10-20-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
I've been waiting since birth for the Sox to play well for 4 years straight.

What about '90-'94? - 94 wins twice,87,86 and 1st place at end of
strike shortened '94 . In fact in the current divisional format the Sox would have won the division in '90, WC in '91, division again in '93 and '94 - not the yanks, but 5 straight years of the sox playing well, if you ask me.

[i]
The fact that the Sox are unable to sell 10000 season tickets in a market this size is an indictment of White Sox marketing, not the fans. [/B]

I'd have to say its more an indictment of the entire organization than just the marketing, though that dept. is pretty stinky.

Harry Chappas Jr
10-20-2003, 10:59 PM
I think that if some Sox fans felt bitter that the Cubs were in the playoffs, they had a right, this year more than ever. In previous years when the Cubs made the playoffs, the Sox had terrible teams and had no hope of making the playoffs. This year, the Sox had a chance and blew it down the stretch. We Sox fans know that the Sox have a better team than the Cubs and, thus, should have made the post season. It hurts more to see the Cubs make it and the Sox blow it in the same season. Don't get me wrong, I would have felt great watching the Cubs blow a 3 games to 1 lead no matter what, but this year felt even better.

doogiec
10-21-2003, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
What about '90-'94? - 94 wins twice,87,86 and 1st place at end of
strike shortened '94 . In fact in the current divisional format the Sox would have won the division in '90, WC in '91, division again in '93 and '94 - not the yanks, but 5 straight years of the sox playing well, if you ask me.

I guess you could say that, but the 1992 team was below .500 at the end of July, certainly nothing for the fans to get excited about. The 90-91-92 teams all finished between 8 and 10 games back. But it was an exciting team clearly on the upswing and the fans did respond with record years at the box office, although the impact of a new stadium had lots to do with that also.

BTW, didn't we just fire a manager after an 86 win season in which we fell four games short? Everyone has a different definition of "playing well", I suppose.

TDog
10-21-2003, 12:32 PM
I believe the way the whole attendance issue is reported ends up hurting attendance.

I don't mean to oversimplify or blame the media for keeping people away from the ballpark, but I think such reporting is part of the dynamic. The summer full of stories about how people aren't (in sufficient numbers) going to Sox games are constantly providing reasons for people not to go to the park.

I can think of a lot of reason not to go to a Cubs game. Many of the reasons people didn't go to Wrigley Field in 1980 existed in 1985. Such reasons will persist in 2004. While the people who go to Wrigley won't care, many won't support the other Chicago team because it is so unfashionable to support the Sox.