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Dadawg_77
10-15-2003, 12:09 PM
Saw this over at Soxtalk.com.

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=10932

But reportly Backman called Ron Gardenhire and told him to kick the Sox's asses so he could get a job. This is why the Sox won't interview him for the job now. If true, Backman can go to hell.

hold2dibber
10-15-2003, 12:38 PM
If that's true, not only should he not be considered for the Sox job, he should be fired immediately.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 01:08 PM
I say hire Backman today. Not one of Backman's words cost the Sox a single game, but not hiring him as Sox manager would cost us many wins.

If you thought he was the best man for the job last week, this shouldn't change your opinion.

This cannot be debated: Backman wants to manage the Sox.

Hokiesox
10-15-2003, 01:09 PM
Let him wallow in AA, knowing that moving up is not an option. No other team would hire him, so he's stuck in AA.

Dadawg_77
10-15-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I say hire Backman today. Not one of Backman's words cost the Sox a single game, but not hiring him as Sox manager would cost us many wins.

If you thought he was the best man for the job last week, this shouldn't change your opinion.

This cannot be debated: Backman wants to manage the Sox.

Hey I like loyalty, Backman didn't show any. This wasn't about a job this was about a team making the playoffs. Backman rooted against his own team for his personal gain. That should get him fired.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Hey I like loyalty, Backman didn't show any. This wasn't about a job this was about a team making the playoffs. Backman rooted against his own team for his personal gain. That should get him fired.

It's human nature to do so. His mistake was letting Gardenhire know about it. I lose respect for Gardenhire, not Backman.

Backman was in a position of 'what more can I do?' He was exceeding expectations in Birmingham; Manuel was far below expectations with the Sox. Manuel should have been fired mid-season and succeeded by a winner named Backman.

FJA
10-15-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Hey I like loyalty, Backman didn't show any. This wasn't about a job this was about a team making the playoffs. Backman rooted against his own team for his personal gain. That should get him fired.

I agree completely. What a jerk ... and don't think the guys on the team haven't heard this talk as well. You think they'll be lining up to play for Backman? Hell no. Nor should the AA players who hope to play for the White Sox some day. Fire him from AA ... good riddance.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 01:38 PM
Backman desired to manage the White Sox while Manuel was quoted plotting when he will leave the team (after he wins the World Series).

poorme
10-15-2003, 01:41 PM
Backman should have been fired already. What's the delay?

FJA
10-15-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Backman desired to manage the White Sox while Manuel was quoted plotting when he will leave the team (after he wins the World Series).

It's one thing to want to manage a team. It's an entirely different thing to root against that team so the job opens up. That's selfish and not at all about wanting to help the White Sox. Again, do you think the guys who are on the team this year will play for a guy who told their rival's manager he hoped the rivals would win for his own personal gain? I wouldn't respect the players who didn't "revolt," as it was earlier suggested they would.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 01:47 PM
Backman wanted Manuel to fail. Do you guys really believe that Cito Gaston, Ozzie Guillen, and everyone else that desired the job wanted Manuel to succeed?!

The only difference between them and Backman is that Backman said it publically, wait, actually he didn't say it publically, he said it in a private conversation with Gardenhire, who made it public.

What if Backman is the manager most likely to succeed with the White Sox? We fans, nor KW, will never know if he's the best fit for the Sox SINCE HE WON'T EVEN INTERVIEW THE MAN!

I've been a big KW fan thus far, but **** him. Get off your horse KW.

hold2dibber
10-15-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
If you thought he was the best man for the job last week, this shouldn't change your opinion.

Uh, actually, knowing that he is a self-centered jackass who cares more about his own personal agenda than about the organization he works for -- i.e., that he is not a "team player" for lack of a better term -- does change my opinion about him and what kind of leader he would be.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by FJA
It's one thing to want to manage a team. It's an entirely different thing to root against that team so the job opens up. That's selfish and not at all about wanting to help the White Sox. Again, do you think the guys who are on the team this year will play for a guy who told their rival's manager he hoped the rivals would win for his own personal gain? I wouldn't respect the players who didn't "revolt," as it was earlier suggested they would.

You know that the Sox players weren't threatening a revolt b/c of what Backman said. The majority of Sox players don't respect the game anyway, so who the F are they to be talking. They want to revolt because they don't want to actually *work* like they would have to under Backman.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Uh, actually, knowing that he is a self-centered jackass who cares more about his own personal agenda than about the organization he works for -- i.e., that he is not a "team player" for lack of a better term -- does change my opinion about him and what kind of leader he would be.

This from a man who defends Frank Thomas's "PERSONAL AGENDA" pursuit of home runs at the expense of being a "team player."

FJA
10-15-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Backman wanted Manuel to fail. Do you guys really believe that Cito Gaston, Ozzie Guillen, and everyone else that desired the job wanted Manuel to succeed?!

The only difference between them and Backman is that Backman said it publically, wait, actually he didn't say it publically, he said it in a private conversation with Gardenhire, who made it public.

What if Backman is the manager most likely to succeed with the White Sox? We fans, nor KW, will ever know if he's the best fit for the Sox SINCE HE WON'T EVEN INTERVIEW THE MAN!

I've been a big KW fan thus far, but **** him. Get off your horse KW.

Did Cito Gaston and Ozzie Guillen call Ron Gardenhire? Not that I know of, and I doubt it. Additionally, Backman already works for the White Sox organization. For him to call and encourage the competition in the middle of a pennant race is disgusting, and frankly, I wouldn't interview him either.

FJA
10-15-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
You know that the Sox players weren't threatening a revolt b/c of what Backman said. The majority of Sox players don't respect the game anyway, so who the F are they to be talking. They want to revolt because they don't want to actually *work* like they would have to under Backman.

I wasn't inferring they were threatening a revolt because of what Backman said. Even though I've never wanted Backman to manage this team, I thought it was absolute BS that they said they'd revolt because they didn't want to actually work. On that point, you're absolutely right. But were Backman to be hired, they'd now have good reason to revolt over what he said. I'd hope they would, because it would show some backbone and pride.

rmusacch
10-15-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by FJA
I agree completely. What a jerk ... and don't think the guys on the team haven't heard this talk as well. You think they'll be lining up to play for Backman? Hell no. Nor should the AA players who hope to play for the White Sox some day. Fire him from AA ... good riddance.

Do you think this might be the reason that a lot of Sox players said all hell would break lose if Backman was hired as manager?

hold2dibber
10-15-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
This from a man who defends Frank Thomas's "PERSONAL AGENDA" pursuit of home runs at the expense of being a "team player."

1. What the hell are you talking about?

and

2. You didn't even try to address my point (or that made by many others) - i.e., that calling your organization's primary rival to root them on, wish them well and express your desire that they stomp your organization for your own personal benefit, reflects poorly on Backman's (a) judgment; (b) character; (c) leadership ability; and (d) loyalty. Do you disagree, or do you just not care whether the next manager has good judgment, character, leadership ability and loyalty? You also haven't responded to those who rightly point out that the players on the team are not likely to want to follow a new leader into war knowing that the new leader was plotting against them last year.

FJA
10-15-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Do you think this might be the reason that a lot of Sox players said all hell would break lose if Backman was hired as manager?

It makes me wonder ... IIRC, the "revolt" talk came out during the Metrodome series. We know Mientkasd;lfj and Everett were talking ... who's to say the Twins players didn't know and someone let the word slip?

It's possible, I guess. I'm sure they knew before the story ran in BA.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by FJA
Did Cito Gaston and Ozzie Guillen call Ron Gardenhire? Not that I know of, and I doubt it. Additionally, Backman already works for the White Sox organization. For him to call and encourage the competition in the middle of a pennant race is disgusting, and frankly, I wouldn't interview him either.

Why don't you read the second sentence of the post you quoted.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
1. What the hell are you talking about?

and

2. You didn't even try to address my point (or that made by many others) - i.e., that calling your organization's primary rival to root them on, wish them well and express your desire that they stomp your organization for your own personal benefit, reflects poorly on Backman's (a) judgment; (b) character; (c) leadership ability; and (d) loyalty. If you disagree, or do you just not care whether the next manager has good judgment, character, leadership ability and loyalty? You also haven't responded to those who rightly point out that the players on the team are not likely to want to follow a new leader into war knowing that the new leader was plotting against them last year.

It's going to take me a while to respond to this one, and I'm hungry so I'll wait until after lunch...

FJA
10-15-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Why don't you read the second sentence of the post you quoted.

I read it a few times and I still don't see addressed in it the problem of an internal job candidate rooting for that organization's failure AND ACTUALLY ENCOURAGING THE COMPETITION for his own personal gain. I also don't see addressed in it the problem of the current team playing for a manager that stabbed them in the back in the middle of a pennant race. There ought to be an "f'n revolt" if Backman is hired (which he won't be, but it seems I need to point out the hypotheticals).

jeremyb1
10-15-2003, 03:25 PM
I think the most important fact here is that Backman was already supposedly on bad terms with the players after wrangling for the job around the all-star break. That seems incredibly minor in comparison to this. I can't see how the players - who really liked Manuel for the most part - would get behind Backman at all in light of this.

FJA
10-15-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I think the most important fact here is that Backman was already supposedly on bad terms with the players after wrangling for the job around the all-star break. That seems incredibly minor in comparison to this. I can't see how the players - who really liked Manuel for the most part - would get behind Backman at all in light of this.

Good point on the AS break wrangling.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
1. What the hell are you talking about?

and

2. You didn't even try to address my point (or that made by many others) - i.e., that calling your organization's primary rival to root them on, wish them well and express your desire that they stomp your organization for your own personal benefit, reflects poorly on Backman's (a) judgment; (b) character; (c) leadership ability; and (d) loyalty. Do you disagree, or do you just not care whether the next manager has good judgment, character, leadership ability and loyalty? You also haven't responded to those who rightly point out that the players on the team are not likely to want to follow a new leader into war knowing that the new leader was plotting against them last year.

Judgment, character, leadership ability, and loyalty are qualities I want in every White Sox manager - and General Manager. I do not feel that this one incident makes Backman a disloyal man of bad character, leadership ability, and judgment. Even if it did, if Backman is the man the Sox are most likely to win under, then I would still want him hired.

One point brought up was whether the Sox players would not play for Backman after he rooted for their failure. This is a valid point, a point I can’t debate. Only the players know whether or not they wouldn’t give their best under Backman. I do believe that Backman should be given an interview and discuss this with the players. To dismiss a man that may give the Sox the best chance to win, because of this comment would be more unprofessional than Backman’s original comment.

I believe KW is using this comment as an excuse not to interview Backman, because he wants to hire a different manager. KW is using this as a way to get fans against the hiring of Backman, and behind the manager he really desires to hire.

By not exhausting all his options, KW is acting in poor judgment and character, not fulfilling his leadership responsibilities. KW is turning his back on a man that has brought success to the White Sox organization. Where’s his loyalty?

bc2k
10-15-2003, 04:54 PM
Backman was an in-house favorite at one point. He is a good manager, a manager that brings qualities that this White Sox team has been lacking. Factor in the candidates KW has been interviewing, and not one of them is a clearly superior manager to Backman. There is reason to believe Backman is the best, and the best fit for this team. I'll shut my mouth once KW starts interviewing a Joe Torre or Lou Piniella.

I relate this to the Paniagua incident. Paniagua was released b/c of a combination of his baseball ability and showing up an umpire. As other posters have said, if Buehrle did the same thing, he would not have been released. So when KW reasoned the release of Paniagua was b/c the White Sox don't stand for such nonsense, he was lying. So when KW reasons Backman didn't get an interview because the White Sox are above that, he's lying again.

KW is using this as an excuse to prevent fans from "revolting" against his decision of a different manager.

DrCrawdad
10-15-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Saw this over at Soxtalk.com.

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=10932

But reportly Backman called Ron Gardenhire and told him to kick the Sox's asses so he could get a job. This is why the Sox won't interview him for the job now. If true, Backman can go to hell.

Is there any substantial proof that Backman really said this? Or is this just rumour and inuendo?

MisterB
10-15-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Judgment, character, leadership ability, and loyalty are qualities I want in every White Sox manager - and General Manager. I do not feel that this one incident makes Backman a disloyal man of bad character, leadership ability, and judgment. Even if it did, if Backman is the man the Sox are most likely to win under, then I would still want him hired.

So how many incidents do you need? 2? 5? 10?

One point brought up was whether the Sox players would not play for Backman after he rooted for their failure. This is a valid point, a point I can’t debate. Only the players know whether or not they wouldn’t give their best under Backman. I do believe that Backman should be given an interview and discuss this with the players. To dismiss a man that may give the Sox the best chance to win, because of this comment would be more unprofessional than Backman’s original comment.

If the players can't give him their best, how the hell can he give them the best chance to win? And wishing failure on a part of your own organization for personal gain is about as unprofessional as you can get.

I believe KW is using this comment as an excuse not to interview Backman, because he wants to hire a different manager. KW is using this as a way to get fans against the hiring of Backman, and behind the manager he really desires to hire.

Uh...this info wasn't leaked by KW, it came from members of the Twins organization. Unless he's somehow convinced the Twins to do his 'dirty work' for him.

By not exhausting all his options, KW is acting in poor judgment and character, not fulfilling his leadership responsibilities. KW is turning his back on a man that has brought success to the White Sox organization. Where’s his loyalty?

Yeah, great job Wally did getting us to the World Series all the way from Birmingham. Oh yeah, that's right, Backman preferred that the Sox didn't make it to the postseason just so he could move up the ladder. KW's responsibility is to find a manager that hs the organization's best interests at heart. Backman obviously puts himself first, and isn't even smart enough to keep it to himself. BTW, to turn around your question from earlier, how is it that you lambaste Thomas for supposedly putting himself ahead of the team, yet back Backman when he has clearly put himself ahead of the team?

Jerry_Manuel
10-15-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Is there any substantial proof that Backman really said this? Or is this just rumour and inuendo?

No quotes from him, just from an unnamed Twins coach. In the latest edition of Baseball Weekly.

bc2k
10-15-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by MisterB


These are are solid responses; I really can't argue them.

Backman has been my guy since mid-season, and my opinion of him has only grown. KW's POS candidates have not gotten me to jump off the Backman bandwagon, nor has his comments about wanting the Twins to beat the Sox. Simply, I feel of those KW has considered, Backman is likely to have the most success.

hold2dibber
10-15-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
These are are solid responses; I really can't argue them.

Backman has been my guy since mid-season, and my opinion of him has only grown. KW's POS candidates have not gotten me to jump off the Backman bandwagon, nor has his comments about wanting the Twins to beat the Sox. Simply, I feel of those KW has considered, Backman is likely to have the most success.

I hear you - someone had a poll here the other day and I voted for Backman. The other candidates all make me cringe, and while I was not convinced that Backman was necessarily the right guy, he seemed to be the best of the bunch. But I think he really shot himself in the foot here (and I seriously doubt that KW in anyway orchestrated any of this). I find his actions to be unacceptable and I think it will sabotage him with the players. I don't think he's fit for the job now. Which is really a shame in light of the fact that the list of candidates we keep seeing (Guillen, Francona, Gaston and Bell) is, IMHO, lousy.

Daver
10-15-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Backman is likely to have the most success.

Backman isn't even the best candidate on the Sox payroll to do that,and several rungs below some of those that are available.

What are you basing your support for him on?

fquaye149
10-15-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Uh, actually, knowing that he is a self-centered jackass who cares more about his own personal agenda than about the organization he works for -- i.e., that he is not a "team player" for lack of a better term -- does change my opinion about him and what kind of leader he would be.


wait so he just wants to manage the sox to make $$$? maybe. i would think he thinks he can win. everyone and his sister thinks the best thing the sox could have done to help the team win last year was FIRE MANUEL. if backman knows the only way manuel will be fired is missing the playoffs...and he hopes for that so he can manage and win, what's the problem?

if he just wants the money on the other hand...

hold2dibber
10-15-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
wait so he just wants to manage the sox to make $$$?

I never said he wanted to manage to make money. I said he cared more about his personal agenda that the team's success. I find that extremely problematic, regardless of whether he wants to manage at the MLB level for the money, for the fame, for the challenge, or whatever. I don't care why he openly rooted for and supported the Twins. I just care that he did so.

everyone and his sister thinks the best thing the sox could have done to help the team win last year was FIRE MANUEL. if backman knows the only way manuel will be fired is missing the playoffs...and he hopes for that so he can manage and win, what's the problem?

Huh? Were you rooting for the Sox to lose against the Twins that last series in Minnesota so that the Sox wouldn't make the playoffs and could fire Manuel? Of course not. But it's okay with you for someone in the organization to openly support and root for the Twins because you think it somehow suggests that he has the team's best interests in mind (i.e., "if they fail, they can hire me and I'll bring them the glory big time!")? That's utterly, hopelessly absurd.

fquaye149
10-15-2003, 08:25 PM
here's my position:

say you're wally backman.

you want to do everything you can to help the white sox win.

are you better off with them barely making the playoffs, getting stomped in the first round, but manuel keeping his job, or having them miss the playoffs so manuel gets fired?

It was ridiculous that he said anything to gardenhire though,,,that was excessive...but i won't fault him in his dedication



and no, i wasn't rooting for the sox to lose....because i believed naively that if they made the playoffs their ridiculous amount of talent could have overcame manuel's stupidosity

RichH55
10-15-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I think the most important fact here is that Backman was already supposedly on bad terms with the players after wrangling for the job around the all-star break. That seems incredibly minor in comparison to this. I can't see how the players - who really liked Manuel for the most part - would get behind Backman at all in light of this.

Say what you will about Backman.....The best way to save Jerry's job would have been to win

The reward? A manager with a completely different style to Jerrys