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Brian26
10-12-2003, 02:17 PM
I'm just throwing this out here for speculation. I know he played a little third when he first came up in '99. Is there anyway CLee has the soft hands to play third again? My gut feeling is no. I still can't imagine him even playing firstbase. With the log jam in the outfield, is there anyway we can keep Lee and Mags and still give Borchard and Reed a chance in spring training?

1- Alomar 2b
2- CLee 3b
3- Ordonez Rf
4- Frank 1b
5- Everett DH
6- Borchard CF
7- Reed LF
8- Graffanino SS
9- Olivo

I'm basically giving up on Crede, Valentin, Konerko, and Rowand with this lineup. If you can trade any combination of the guys above for a decent shortstop or catcher, take Graf out as a starter.

FJA
10-12-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I'm just throwing this out here for speculation. I know he played a little third when he first came up in '99. Is there anyway CLee has the soft hands to play third again? My gut feeling is no. I still can't imagine him even playing firstbase. With the log jam in the outfield, is there anyway we can keep Lee and Mags and still give Borchard and Reed a chance in spring training?

1- Alomar 2b
2- CLee 3b
3- Ordonez Rf
4- Frank 1b
5- Everett DH
6- Borchard CF
7- Reed LF
8- Graffanino SS
9- Olivo

I'm basically giving up on Crede, Valentin, Konerko, and Rowand with this lineup. If you can trade any combination of the guys above for a decent shortstop or catcher, take Graf out as a starter.

Why are you giving up on Crede? Remember--he's still young, and, unlike Konerko, once he got going at the end of the season, he kept going. He's still young, and I think a full-season breakout is right around the corner. I don't even want to think about the defense you're going to sacrifice by putting Carlos at third.

RichH55
10-12-2003, 02:20 PM
Why give up on Crede? He stepped in up near the end....is still young, and is still cheap

poorme
10-12-2003, 02:22 PM
If this were 1999, I'd say, "give it a try." But after four years, there's no way Lee can play third. I bet when Lee was in the low minors, he was at least 20-25 pounds lighter.

Brian26
10-12-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by FJA
Why are you giving up on Crede? Remember--he's still young, and, unlike Konerko, once he got going at the end of the season, he kept going. He's still young, and I think a full-season breakout is right around the corner. I don't even want to think about the defense you're going to sacrifice by putting Carlos at third.

Well, we've had two years in a row where Crede was mediocre at best for 2/3 of the season, and then he turned it on in the final month and a half.

When Crede's on, he looks good. When's Crede's struggling and swinging at balls in the dirt, he looks worst than anyone I've ever seen. Remember, he spent a long time in the minors. He's not a 21-yr old kid. Is Crede going to fulfill his potential or be a junior version of Konerko with the 3-month-long slumps?

I was basically exploring the idea of Crede v. Borchard or Crede v. Reed in the lineup instead of Lee v. Borchard or Lee v. Reed.
I almost feel more confident with Borchard and Reed at this point than with Crede.

RichH55
10-12-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Well, we've had two years in a row where Crede was mediocre at best for 2/3 of the season, and then he turned it on in the final month and a half.

When Crede's on, he looks good. When's Crede's struggling and swinging at balls in the dirt, he looks worst than anyone I've ever seen. Remember, he spent a long time in the minors. He's not a 21-yr old kid. Is Crede going to fulfill his potential or be a junior version of Konerko with the 3-month-long slumps?

I was basically exploring the idea of Crede v. Borchard or Crede v. Reed in the lineup instead of Lee v. Borchard or Lee v. Reed.
I almost feel more confident with Borchard and Reed at this point than with Crede.

Does it count as Mediocre when you are in the minor leagues?

RichH55
10-12-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Well, we've had two years in a row where Crede was mediocre at best for 2/3 of the season, and then he turned it on in the final month and a half.

When Crede's on, he looks good. When's Crede's struggling and swinging at balls in the dirt, he looks worst than anyone I've ever seen. Remember, he spent a long time in the minors. He's not a 21-yr old kid. Is Crede going to fulfill his potential or be a junior version of Konerko with the 3-month-long slumps?

I was basically exploring the idea of Crede v. Borchard or Crede v. Reed in the lineup instead of Lee v. Borchard or Lee v. Reed.
I almost feel more confident with Borchard and Reed at this point than with Crede.

Then why not play Frank at SS, and Konerko behind the plate...since reason, accountability and logic seem to not apply(much like with my girlfriend)

Brian26
10-12-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Does it count as Mediocre when you are in the minor leagues?

Eh, you're right. Crede spent most of 2002 in the minors, although he did get a shot in the Spring and didn't impress enough.

I forgot about the Royce Clayton-induced infield logjam.

Brian26
10-12-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Then why not play Frank at SS, and Konerko behind the plate...since reason, accountability and logic seem to not apply(much like with my girlfriend)

Has Frank ever played shortstop at the MLB level? Caballo has played thirdbase up here. He didn't play a ton of games, but he did play. Frank's never played another field position except first.

MRKARNO
10-12-2003, 02:45 PM
There is no way whatsoever you give up on Crede this early. He's only been in the majors for what, a year and a third? And he's looked pretty good for half of that time. I'd give up on Borchard before I'd give up on Crede in a heartbeat. Crede is part of the future of the franchise. He might not look as good as Miguel Cabrera, but he certainly is a promising player who may be a .300 30 hr 120 rbi hitter in the near future.

soxwon
10-12-2003, 02:48 PM
hes a very young kid- i think he needs another atleast half season in the minors-dont rush him.
take your time like you did Borchard. and Crede is really good he is ourr 3b for 5 years atleast.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-12-2003, 02:54 PM
Crazy, crazy, crazy. Lee has made tremendous progress as a leftfielder. There is no way in the world I would move him anywhere. I would trade him before I gave him a trial at third base, and this has nothing to do with Joe Crede whatsoever.

The Sox moved Lee out of the infield back in the late-90's. He is never going back, unless as a firstbasemen.

RichH55
10-12-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Has Frank ever played shortstop at the MLB level? Caballo has played thirdbase up here. He didn't play a ton of games, but he did play. Frank's never played another field position except first.

Konerko has played C before (Not sure at major league level)....Still about the same level of realism

Brian26
10-12-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Konerko has played C before (Not sure at major league level)....Still about the same level of realism

Uh, not really. Lee has played thirdbase. Frank Thomas hasn't EVER played shortstop. Konerko could play catcher in an emergency situation and was the team's 4th string catcher for awhile this year after Paul was let go and before Burke came up. His baseball cards with the Dodgers list him as a catcher in his rookie year, but like you, I'm not sure if he ever played any major league innings there. Of the three scenarios, the Lee one isn't out of the realm of possibility. I'm just throwing it out there for discussion, just as I did last year with Mags playing centerfield (which actually happened) and with Daubach playing third (which didn't happen).

Daver
10-12-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Konerko could play catcher in an emergency situation and was the team's 4th string catcher for awhile this year after Paul was let go and before Burke came up.

Brian Daubauch was the Sox emergency catcher all season long.

soxtalker
10-12-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Crazy, crazy, crazy. Lee has made tremendous progress as a leftfielder. There is no way in the world I would move him anywhere. I would trade him before I gave him a trial at third base, and this has nothing to do with Joe Crede whatsoever.

The Sox moved Lee out of the infield back in the late-90's. He is never going back, unless as a firstbasemen.

I agree.

C Lee has a lot of value as a LF right now. KW may or may not decide to trade him, as he should command a great deal of value in any trade.

If people have decided that Crede will never hit well enough (and I think that it is still too soon to say that), deal with that issue through a separate acquisition. I don't know what the cause of his hitting problems were, but I'd sure like to see if we could correct them here.

TDog
10-12-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Then why not play Frank at SS, and Konerko behind the plate...since reason, accountability and logic seem to not apply(much like with my girlfriend)


I understand your point. A few years ago, I played an informal game against a team that had Josh Paul (before he was called up) playing in left field. If you're playing baseball for fun, you can play anywhere. No manager who is serious about winning would ever position players like that.

bc2k
10-12-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I'm just throwing this out here for speculation. I know he played a little third when he first came up in '99. Is there anyway CLee has the soft hands to play third again? My gut feeling is no.

I don't think Carlos could play third not beacuse of his hands, but because of his arm.

I'll give you credit for looking at new angles to try and better our team, especially with the dumping of Crede. Crede sucks. Crede plays without intensity. He plays the game timid and scared.

Why did JM and Walker allow him to use a 7 pound bat? That bat is too big for Crede and his slow swing. He pusses out on balls near the third base fence. He has a home run hitter's bat, but only hit 20 all year with a piss-poor batting average.

His defense is grossly overrated. He cannot not handle the in-between hop, takes forever-and-a-day to throw the ball, luckily his plus arm compensates for that. Oh, and he can't tag out guys who run right in front of him from second base. Scared, timid.

Why is this guy's potential so high? He plays slow defense with a slower swing, and the slowest feet in baseball after Konerko retires. How can someone so young, be so damn slow in every facit of the game?

Get rid of this guy while we can still get something worthy in return.

soxfan26
10-12-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Brian26

2- CLee 3b


...I'm basically giving up on Crede...

Giving up on Crede? I hear a ton of weird ideas around here, but that takes the cake.

Would you have given up on this guy too?

G AVG HR RBI E TC FP
150 .249 5 54 25 408 .939

Because I think Crede's numbers are just a bit better...

G AVG HR RBI E TC FP
151 .261 19 75 14 385 .964

But I'm sure you'll find a way to argue that we should have played Ivan Calderon at 3B in 1991 after Robin Ventura put up those numbers in 1990.

Crede is the best 3B prospect we have seen in Chicago in a decade.

StillMissOzzie
10-12-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
Giving up on Crede? I hear a ton of weird ideas around here, but that takes the cake.

Would you have given up on this guy too?

G AVG HR RBI E TC FP
150 .249 5 54 25 408 .939

Because I think Crede's numbers are just a bit better...

G AVG HR RBI E TC FP
151 .261 19 75 14 385 .964

But I'm sure you'll find a way to argue that we should have played Ivan Calderon at 3B in 1991 after Robin Ventura put up those numbers in 1990.

Crede is the best 3B prospect we have seen in Chicago in a decade.

Great research here, soxfan26!!! I'm sticking with Crede too!

:gulp:
SMO

Brian26
10-12-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Brian Daubauch was the Sox emergency catcher all season long.

Right. Daubach was #3, and as I said, Konerko was #4.

SoxxoS
10-12-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I'll give you credit for looking at new angles to try and better our team, especially with the dumping of Crede. Crede sucks. Crede plays without intensity. He plays the game timid and scared.

That quote makes the whole post lose credibility...

How many 3Baseman that you know of are fleet of foot, just wondering?

Brian26
10-12-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
Giving up on Crede? I hear a ton of weird ideas around here, but that takes the cake.

Would you have given up on this guy too?

G AVG HR RBI E TC FP
150 .249 5 54 25 408 .939

Because I think Crede's numbers are just a bit better...

G AVG HR RBI E TC FP
151 .261 19 75 14 385 .964

But I'm sure you'll find a way to argue that we should have played Ivan Calderon at 3B in 1991 after Robin Ventura put up those numbers in 1990.

Crede is the best 3B prospect we have seen in Chicago in a decade.

Ok,

Let's discuss-

Crede turned 25 this April. Ventura, in April 1990, was 22. Crede's had 3 more years of minor league seasoning.
Granted, not against major league pitching, but 3 more years against decent pitching in Triple A is better than nothing.

So if you want to make this fair, should we look at Crede's numbers from age 22? The '99 season at Birmingham:
in 74 games, he hit 4 hrs with a .251 avg. In 2000, he had much better numbers (still at double A), but everyone knows Ventura had a huge year in his next year, '91, too.

Second of all, I don't recall any huge prospects in the outfield coming up for the Sox in 1990 that would warrant trying to put Calderon at another position. The Sox had nobody on the horizon in left or right (the reason we had to go out and get Raines and Burks and deal with Pasqua and Cory Snyder).
Yes, I know we traded Calderon for Raines.

Did Calderon play third three years earlier for the Sox? No.

Ventura was college player of the decade. Ventura had a 58-game hitting streak. Ventura's potential greater than Crede's.
Ventura's defense made up for his lack of run production in '90.
Ventura had no ****ing protection in that 1990 lineup anyway.

Brian26
10-12-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Shammy trying to hit a grand slam to tie it?

Too bad nobody was on base.

:)

He still can't lay off that pitch up in his eyes, too.
Go Fish.

soxfan26
10-12-2003, 08:08 PM
So we shall discuss...

Obviously we don't agree.

You think a 74 game season in AA makes a good comparison for a 150 game season in MLB. I don't agree.

You think the White Sox have "huge outfield prospects coming up" and that they should move established Major League talent out of position to accommodate for them. I don't agree.

It is now 2003, "three years earlier" would be the year 2000. According to CBS Sportsline Carlos played 152 games, 149 in the OF, with 146 starts in the OF. It does not list where he played the other 3 games. For the sake of argument, let's say it was 3B. You think that playing 3 games at 3B means that you have played 3B in MLB. I don't agree.

Joe Crede spent the majority of the season batting number 6 or 7 in the lineup. You think that his protection was somehow better than Robins. I don't agree.

The level of frustration it put you through waiting for Crede to arrive must have been hell. Being critical of his slow development is one thing. But to suggest that we #1 get rid of him, and #2 give his position to an OFer who has NEVER played third in the big leagues makes me think of.... :jerry

RichH55
10-12-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Uh, not really. Lee has played thirdbase. Frank Thomas hasn't EVER played shortstop. Konerko could play catcher in an emergency situation and was the team's 4th string catcher for awhile this year after Paul was let go and before Burke came up. His baseball cards with the Dodgers list him as a catcher in his rookie year, but like you, I'm not sure if he ever played any major league innings there. Of the three scenarios, the Lee one isn't out of the realm of possibility. I'm just throwing it out there for discussion, just as I did last year with Mags playing centerfield (which actually happened) and with Daubach playing third (which didn't happen).


Your point is what here?

We aren't giving up on Crede...and even if we did Carlos is option #345 on the 3B chart.

You can argue the merits of getting rid of Crede(I don't happen to agree), but when you suggest that moving Carlos to 3B is within the realm of possibility is ridiculous ...sorry

Mags playing CF is quite different altogther, and I think you can see that

JRIG
10-12-2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Your point is what here?

We aren't giving up on Crede...and even if we did Carlos is option #345 on the 3B chart.

You can argue the merits of getting rid of Crede(I don't happen to agree), but when you suggest that moving Carlos to 3B is within the realm of possibility is ridiculous ...sorry


Might as well talk about Konerko moving back to third base. It's not going to happen.

RichH55
10-13-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Might as well talk about Konerko moving back to third base. It's not going to happen.

No no...Konerko goes back to C:)

BTW ...How bad would Brian Daubach be at C?

If Lecroy can do it at Minnesota...why not Brian

bc2k
10-13-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
That quote makes the whole post lose credibility...

How many 3Baseman that you know of are fleet of foot, just wondering?

No, I think it's your opinion of Crede that makes my post lose credibility in your eyes.

It doesn't matter the amount of 3B that are "fleet of foot. Your quote makes it sound as if the only facit of Crede's game that is below average is foot speed. His lack of speed is just one of many parts of Crede's game that is below average.

fuzzy_patters
10-13-2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
I'm just throwing this out here for speculation. I know he played a little third when he first came up in '99. Is there anyway CLee has the soft hands to play third again? My gut feeling is no. I still can't imagine him even playing firstbase. With the log jam in the outfield, is there anyway we can keep Lee and Mags and still give Borchard and Reed a chance in spring training?

1- Alomar 2b
2- CLee 3b
3- Ordonez Rf
4- Frank 1b
5- Everett DH
6- Borchard CF
7- Reed LF
8- Graffanino SS
9- Olivo

I'm basically giving up on Crede, Valentin, Konerko, and Rowand with this lineup. If you can trade any combination of the guys above for a decent shortstop or catcher, take Graf out as a starter.

I thought that you were full of crap and that Carlos Lee switched to the outfield a year before he came up to the big leagues, so I decided to look it up. Here is a link of Carlos's career statistics courtesy of baseballreference.com: Carlos Stats (http://baseballreference.com/l/leeca01.shtml). As you can see, Carlos has played 521 games in left, 37 at DH, and 5 games at first base in his career; however, he has never played third base in the Major Leagues.

Now that we have established that Carlos has never played third base in the major leagues, perhaps we should discuss why he was moved from the third base to the outfield in the first place. If you recall, when Ventura was not signed the Sox were criticized because the third basemen in waiting, Carlos Lee, made 35 errors at third base the year before. Clearly, this guy was a butcher at third, and there is a very good reason he does not play there anymore.

Brian26
10-13-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
No, I think it's your opinion of Crede that makes my post lose credibility in your eyes.

It doesn't matter the amount of 3B that are "fleet of foot. Your quote makes it sound as if the only facit of Crede's game that is below average is foot speed. His lack of speed is just one of many parts of Crede's game that is below average.

Just concede these guys the win, bc2k. We'll watch Crede swing at balls in the dirt for the first four months of the season next year until he decides to get hot in September against Triple A pitching so he can get 20 homers.

It's not so much that Crede is going to be a terrible hole in the lineup, but it's the fact that he's really quite similar to the 6 other guys in the lineup who do the same thing. Which goes back to my original post where I was trying to work a switch-hitting speedier guy like Borchard into the lineup without losing Lee at one of the corner outfield positions. If Crede can bat .300, then I'll eat my words. Based on what I saw from him at the plate this year, I don't think he'll ever have the discipline to do that. He goes after balls in the dirt like Sammy goes after balls over his head. Robin Ventura was ten times the hitter than Joe Crede is at this point in his career. Crede may hit 20 homers, but he's not going to steal bases or hit for average. That's ok if we have a shortstop or centerfielder who can contribute more in those areas, but we don't.

longshot7
10-13-2003, 12:54 AM
I saw Caballo play 3B and I thought he as pretty good, but PHG is right, this was FOUR years ago - leave him where he is.

It also seems that a lot of people are wishing & hoping that Borchard and Reed are our answers in the OF. Maybe someday, but definitely NOT next year. Anyone who says differently is just plain wrong. Both deserve to stay in the minors. Don't worry, guys. Neither Lee or Ordonez is going anywhere.

bc2k
10-13-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
the third basemen in waiting, Carlos Lee, made 35 errors at third base the year before.

hahah, that's horrible. But you must admit, the possbility of Carlos and Valentin "36" playing next to each other is intriguing.

RichH55
10-13-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Just concede these guys the win, bc2k. We'll watch Crede swing at balls in the dirt for the first four months of the season next year until he decides to get hot in September against Triple A pitching so he can get 20 homers.

It's not so much that Crede is going to be a terrible hole in the lineup, but it's the fact that he's really quite similar to the 6 other guys in the lineup who do the same thing. Which goes back to my original post where I was trying to work a switch-hitting speedier guy like Borchard into the lineup without losing Lee at one of the corner outfield positions. If Crede can bat .300, then I'll eat my words. Based on what I saw from him at the plate this year, I don't think he'll ever have the discipline to do that. He goes after balls in the dirt like Sammy goes after balls over his head. Robin Ventura was ten times the hitter than Joe Crede is at this point in his career. Crede may hit 20 homers, but he's not going to steal bases or hit for average. That's ok if we have a shortstop or centerfielder who can contribute more in those areas, but we don't.


You also claimed that Crede was mediocre for 2 years with small spurts at the end of the year....This was his first full year in the bigs no?>

Brian26
10-13-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
You also claimed that Crede was mediocre for 2 years with small spurts at the end of the year....This was his first full year in the bigs no?>

You're telling me he didn't suck at the beginning of 2002 so they sent him back down, even though he had every opportunity in the world to win that job coming out of Spring Training and in the first month of the season? He was also up in June of 2001 and went right back down when Milkman came off the DL. And he played up here at the end of 2000. Crede's 2001 season should have been equivalent to Ventura's 1990 season.

MisterB
10-13-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
You're telling me he didn't suck at the beginning of 2002 so they sent him back down, even though he had every opportunity in the world to win that job coming out of Spring Training and in the first month of the season? He was also up in June of 2001 and went right back down when Milkman came off the DL. And he played up here at the end of 2000. Crede's 2001 season should have been equivalent to Ventura's 1990 season.

Crede didn't make the Sox in '02 because KW and JM were still trying in vain to work Clayton and Valentin into the lineup simultaneously. Sure enough, once The Choice was gone Crede was up and playing regularly (and hitting pretty well). This season the scouting reports were out on how to pitch him, so he had to adjust to that while the Sox were having another hitting coach fiasco. Sure enough, once Walker was in place Crede started getting better. Joe Crede is not Ventura. But he's good enough to man 3B in the majors. And saying that a 25 year old who hits .261/19/75 in his first full season should be dumped is just dumb. Especially when your preferred alternative is to fill his place with a guy who couldn't be trusted to play third when the best the Sox could put there was Greg Norton.

poorme
10-13-2003, 05:47 PM
Crede is pretty much an average thirdbaseman. And considering what his salary is, he's a valuable commodity.

daveeym
10-13-2003, 07:14 PM
Crede

Me:I say we kill him!

Brian26:I say we Stomp him.
Then we tattoo him.
Then we hang him.
And then we kill him.

JR:I say we let him go.

RichH55:I say you let me have him first.

Kilroy
10-13-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
I saw Caballo play 3B and I thought he as pretty good, but PHG is right, this was FOUR years ago - leave him where he is.

Just wondering, where did you see CLee play 3rd base at? Like Fuzzy Patters posted, and I was about to post before I read the whole thread, CLee never played 3rd in the majors. The closest thing to that I remember was Konerko playing third for 1 game in 99 and 7 games in 2000.