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BeerHandle
10-10-2003, 03:49 PM
If KW wants grinders (someone who plays hard from the first pitch of the season to the last pitch of the season), would this lineup be it and can they make it to the World Series?

1. Alomar (2nd)
2. Lee (Left)
3. Thomas (1B)**
4. Ordoniz (Right)
5. Everett (DH)
6. Crede (3rd)
7. Valentine (SS)
8. Rowand (Center)
9. Olivo (Catcher)

** Kornerko is traded for prospects and would free up money to sign Colon for a 4-year contract, which is what he wants.

soxfan26
10-10-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
If KW wants grinders (someone who plays hard from the first pitch of the season to the last pitch of the season), would this lineup be it and can they make it to the World Series?

1. Alomar (2nd)
2. Lee (Left)
3. Thomas (1B)**
4. Ordoniz (Right)
5. Everett (DH)
6. Crede (3rd)
7. Valentine (SS)
8. Rowand (Center)
9. Olivo (Catcher)

** Kornerko is traded for prospects and would free up money to sign Colon for a 4-year contract, which is what he wants.

This team already had their shot in 2003, result: 2nd Place

KW said he won't make a move until Colon decides. So we won't have the chance to deal PK to free up some cash until we are in an all out bidding war with the Yankees, Red Sox, and Phillies to name a few. By then Colon may be wearing a Phillies cap. I just hope he meant what he said about returning to Chicago.

Everett's salary is not worth it. He's a grinder, but Lee is a better career hitter and looks like he turned the corner last year.

Valentin is a lazy overpaid SS. The Sox should let him go. When we have Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Crede, and Daubach/and or Konerko, we don't need a SS hitting 20-25 HRs but booting the ball and not being able to get on base.

poorme
10-10-2003, 05:11 PM
robbie alomar is a POS. i wouldn't pay him more than 500,000.

everett had one of his best years and is not going to accept a pay cut (at least until reality smacks him in the face), anc the sox wouldn't risk offering him salary arbitration, so HE GONE!

valentin is marginal. according to win shares, he was the best defensive SS in the AL. but how much lower can his avg. sink? of course where are you going to find a decent replacement?

voodoochile
10-10-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by poorme
robbie alomar is a POS. i wouldn't pay him more than 500,000.

everett had one of his best years and is not going to accept a pay cut (at least until reality smacks him in the face), anc the sox wouldn't risk offering him salary arbitration, so HE GONE!

valentin is marginal. according to win shares, he was the best defensive SS in the AL. but how much lower can his avg. sink? of course where are you going to find a decent replacement?

I don't think Everett will be back, but the Sox could do worse than Alomar leading off and Valentin at SS. Valentin still hits for power and he took a fair amount of walks last year, so his OPS was solid if unspectacular. The Sox don't have a better 2B option than Alomar defensively and he can be the leadoff/contact hitter they need unless a better option comes along. Heck they can platoon Graff with Valentin at SS just so long as it is a REAL platoon where Jose never faces a LHP and Graff never faces a RHP.

soxtalker
10-10-2003, 05:39 PM
What exactly (or as close as possible) is KW's definition of a "grinder"?

Win1ForMe
10-10-2003, 05:43 PM
Voodoo & poorme,

What do you guys think about signing Luis Castillo to play 2B and leadoff. I don't think he'll break the bank (although it would probably mean losing another player like Carlos) and might make sense if Ozzie gets the job. I think we underestimate the value of having a good leadoff guy and what that could do for an offense.

At SS, I actually wouldn't mind going for a guy like David Eckstein. I know he's a lead-off guy for the Angels but his OBP dipped drastically this year (.363 -> .325). Still, he'd be a great 2 hitter with Castillo and fits the description of a "grinder" Kenny would be looking for.

Here's a blurb about Eckstein from ESPN's rumor central:
"Anaheim is said to be considering making a run at big-time shortstop like Miguel Tejada or, potentially, Japanese import Kazuo Matsui. If they land one, they could trade Eckstein..."

Boston was listed as a possible suitor for Eck but I don't see a reason as to why they wouldn't just re-sign Todd Walker.

dkings34
10-10-2003, 06:12 PM
I was looking at the contracts of our players and here they are. (some)

jose valentin 5.0m
carl everett 9.15m
robbie alomar 8.0m
frank thomas 6.0m
paul konerko 8.0m
scott sullivan 3.1m
brian daubach450,000
sandy alomar 700,000
billy koch 6.37m

I think the players should be traded or not resigned becaused that comes to 46,775,000 in contracts if robbie,jose and carl don't take less this is what we are looking at. I say this when you have free agents this winter like
orlando cabrera 3.3m
luis castillo 4.85m
jay payton 1.87m
just to name a few..who would you kept and let go?

poorme
10-10-2003, 08:58 PM
luis castillo would be great. he's much better than alomar. as far as eckstein goes, valentin is better.

soxfan26
10-10-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by dkings34
I was looking at the contracts of our players and here they are. (some)

jose valentin 5.0m
carl everett 9.15m
robbie alomar 8.0m
frank thomas 6.0m
paul konerko 8.0m
scott sullivan 3.1m
brian daubach450,000
sandy alomar 700,000
billy koch 6.37m

I think the players should be traded or not resigned becaused that comes to 46,775,000 in contracts if robbie,jose and carl don't take less this is what we are looking at. I say this when you have free agents this winter like
orlando cabrera 3.3m
luis castillo 4.85m
jay payton 1.87m
just to name a few..who would you kept and let go?

Keep/Aquire:
Thomas 6-8m
Daubach 450k
S Alomar 3m*
R Alomar 700k
Koch 6.37m
Cabrera 4.5m**

Dump:
Konerko 8.0m***
Valentin 5.0m
Everett 9.15m
Sullivan 3.1m



* I'd keep Alomar only if he would take a pay cut to around 3-3.5m

** If Cabrera is available I'd go as high as 6m for him.

*** I doubt we will be able to shed all of PK's salary, but dropping him and the other jokers sheds about $25m.

Jay Payton is improving but not a good fit for us.

Castillo is good also, but I'd rather dump Jose and pick up Cabrera than dump R Alomar. Both Cabrera and Castillo would probably be too much for a "small market team" like us.

MisterB
10-10-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
What exactly (or as close as possible) is KW's definition of a "grinder"?

Here you go...

http://www.hitachi-koki.com/powertools/images/grinder.jpg http://www.virtualmachinist.com/grinder.jpg http://www.bmaster.com/nov13auction/sm-eq-pics/sm-hobart-4156ss-grinder.3.jpg

Deadguy
10-10-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Here you go...

http://www.hitachi-koki.com/powertools/images/grinder.jpg http://www.virtualmachinist.com/grinder.jpg http://www.bmaster.com/nov13auction/sm-eq-pics/sm-hobart-4156ss-grinder.3.jpg

Eeek.

That brings back painful memories of when I was a grinder at a metal factory.

poorme
10-10-2003, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26


* I'd keep Alomar only if he would take a pay cut to around 3-3.5m


why on earth would you pay someone 3.5 million to hit .258 5 HR and 38 RBI? he has a nice glove, but c'mon. maybe we can get manny trillo out of retirement. alomar is supposedly 35, but he looks like he's about 45.

JRIG
10-10-2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by poorme
why on earth would you pay someone 3.5 million to hit .258 5 HR and 38 RBI? he has a nice glove, but c'mon. maybe we can get manny trillo out of retirement. alomar is supposedly 35, but he looks like he's about 45.

Because of his intangibles and the fact he plays the game the right way.

And he can bunt.

gosox41
10-10-2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
If KW wants grinders (someone who plays hard from the first pitch of the season to the last pitch of the season), would this lineup be it and can they make it to the World Series?

1. Alomar (2nd)
2. Lee (Left)
3. Thomas (1B)**
4. Ordoniz (Right)
5. Everett (DH)
6. Crede (3rd)
7. Valentine (SS)
8. Rowand (Center)
9. Olivo (Catcher)

** Kornerko is traded for prospects and would free up money to sign Colon for a 4-year contract, which is what he wants.

Konerko traded for prospects??? You'd be lucky to get suspects for PK.

Bob

gosox41
10-10-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
What exactly (or as close as possible) is KW's definition of a "grinder"?



:KW:
Mmmmmm grinders. It's kind of like a sub, but on toasted bread.....

voodoochile
10-10-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Konerko traded for prospects??? You'd be lucky to get suspects for PK.

Bob

Sold to the man with the Suspect offer... :D:

crector
10-11-2003, 12:03 AM
Get rid of Koch and Sullivan.

Keep Everett only if he takes a decent pay cut down to say 6.0 mil. If necessary, pay Big Frank up to 8.0 mil./yr. for the next 1-4 years to keep his booming bat around.

gosox41
10-11-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by crector
Get rid of Koch and Sullivan.

Keep Everett only if he takes a decent pay cut down to say 6.0 mil. If necessary, pay Big Frank up to 8.0 mil./yr. for the next 1-4 years to keep his booming bat around.

In regards to getting rid of Koch, I don't see much demand in the market place for a pitcher being paid $6.375 mill coming off a terrible season where the velocity on his fastball had dropped 5-7MPH and he spent time on the DL with elbow trouble.

As for Sullivan, what is his contract status? I thought he was a FA, then heard he had a $3.4 mill. option for 2004. Hopefully that is the clubs option and not his. Either way I would not pick up the option. Grant him his FA. I don't know all the rules about offering arbitration to FA's whose option you don't pick up, but if it's at all possible offer him arbitration. If he accepts and he wins he still won't make anywhere near $3.4 mill. If he signs as another team as a FA, then I'd be thrilled with a draft pick or 2 as compensation for losign a middle reliever.

Bob

dougs78
10-11-2003, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
Here you go...

http://www.hitachi-koki.com/powertools/images/grinder.jpg http://www.virtualmachinist.com/grinder.jpg http://www.bmaster.com/nov13auction/sm-eq-pics/sm-hobart-4156ss-grinder.3.jpg


LOL! That cracked me up.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-11-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Eeek.

That brings back painful memories of when I was a grinder at a metal factory.

Pfft... everyone knows a grinder is a sandwich! :smile:

:KW
"Everyone knows about me and the post-game buffet table!"

:jerry
"Anybody who doesn't agree with me and Kenny that we need a better deli plate just doesn't understand baseball."

oldcomiskey
10-11-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by soxfan26
Keep/Aquire:
Thomas 6-8m
Daubach 450k
S Alomar 3m*
R Alomar 700k
Koch 6.37m
Cabrera 4.5m**

Dump:
Konerko 8.0m***
Valentin 5.0m
Everett 9.15m
Sullivan 3.1m



* I'd keep Alomar only if he would take a pay cut to around 3-3.5m

** If Cabrera is available I'd go as high as 6m for him.

*** I doubt we will be able to shed all of PK's salary, but dropping him and the other jokers sheds about $25m.

Jay Payton is improving but not a good fit for us.

Castillo is good also, but I'd rather dump Jose and pick up Cabrera than dump R Alomar. Both Cabrera and Castillo would probably be too much for a "small market team" like us.

oh yes, that makes sense---get rid of Valentin and Konerko and keep Koch...I dont know why you people dont like Manos--hes better defensivly then half of the shortstops with his range and he hits 25-30 HRS a season--Koch was a mistake from day one and should be killed if not traded

RichH55
10-11-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Konerko traded for prospects??? You'd be lucky to get suspects for PK.

Bob

Toe Nash for PK? Done

soxfan26
10-11-2003, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
oh yes, that makes sense---get rid of Valentin and Konerko and keep Koch...I dont know why you people dont like Manos--hes better defensivly then half of the shortstops with his range and he hits 25-30 HRS a season--Koch was a mistake from day one and should be killed if not traded

Who are you going to trade Koch for? Does anyone have a need for a eccentric reliever with a dead arm? Probably not. Koch will stay with the Sox because you can't trade him at this point for any value.

PK on the other hand can take his GIDP's elsewhere. He does present an attractive offer to a team willing to pay him $5-6m, and it would clear up the log jam at DH and 1B.

Valentin could be dropped if we could pick up a player of Cabrera's caliber. A SS with BELOW AVERAGE range who hits .230 with 25 HRs is useless. Cabrera could bat at the top of the order and fits the bill of "grinder" a bit better.

"You people" don't like Manos because he is not worth his weight in batting gloves.

Tragg
10-11-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
If KW wants grinders (someone who plays hard from the first pitch of the season to the last pitch of the season), would this lineup be it and can they make it to the World Series?

1. Alomar (2nd)
2. Lee (Left)
3. Thomas (1B)**
4. Ordoniz (Right)
5. Everett (DH)
6. Crede (3rd)
7. Valentine (SS)
8. Rowand (Center)
9. Olivo (Catcher)

** Kornerko is traded for prospects and would free up money to sign Colon for a 4-year contract, which is what he wants.

That lineup could make it to a 80 win season, with the right breaks.

crector
10-11-2003, 11:47 PM
Actually, that lineup is much better than what Manuel used this year. Especially since Rowand, who in my opinion is a proven player, is a full time starter in that lineup. Don't know if it could actually get us to the World Series, but it should provide more consistent offensive support to our pitchers than this year's lineup did. As such, we should be able to win the Central Division in 2004. If we can keep Colon, and either Marte or Shoenwiess (sp) can make the starting rotation, then a Central Division championship should be a cinch.

TornLabrum
10-12-2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by crector
Actually, that lineup is much better than what Manuel used this year. Especially since Rowand, who in my opinion is a proven player, is a full time starter in that lineup. Don't know if it could actually get us to the World Series, but it should provide more consistent offensive support to our pitchers than this year's lineup did. As such, we should be able to win the Central Division in 2004. If we can keep Colon, and either Marte or Shoenwiess (sp) can make the starting rotation, then a Central Division championship should be a cinch.

Aaron Rowand is at best a fourth outfielder on a good team. That lineup will get us second or third place at best.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-12-2003, 08:31 AM
Rowand is terrible in the outfield and I'm not sure why we keep debating it. As for his offensive potential, Rowand's improvements with the bat are a bit suspect. I remember watching a game from the Cell last month where Rowand needed to lay down a bunt to advance the runner. The popup was so high, the rightfielder broke in on it.

Rowand is okay to have on the bench. Meanwhile we need somebody to play center field next year -- like we have every year since 1995. Kenny Lofton is looking pretty good these days... but we couldn't hustle him out of town quick enough.

We'll never win a championship adding and subtracting pieces of the puzzle. We're always short.

:ohno
"Money, money, money..."

:reinsy
"And you know who will get the blame? Hint: it's not me!"

soxtalker
10-12-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Rowand is terrible in the outfield and I'm not sure why we keep debating it. As for his offensive potential, Rowand's improvements with the bat are a bit suspect. I remember watching a game from the Cell last month where Rowand needed to lay down a bunt to advance the runner. The popup was so high, the rightfielder broke in on it.
...


I'm not sure about Rowand. I used to think that he'd be a great alternative in CF once he'd recovered from that (stupid) dirt bike accident. The arguments that you (and others) have put forth, however, are pretty convincing that he's not the answer. We may, of course, find that KW ends up trying him out, as he has stated that pitching will be his focus in the off season. If that is the case, and Rowand does indeed fail to pan out, I suppose that KW can try another round of mid-season acquisitions.

Your description above did remind me of another player on the Sox going back a year or two -- Carlos Lee. Lee had shown some hitting ability (as Rowand has done lately), but he was terrible in the field. I'm not sure what he was able to do (or the Sox were able to do with him) to turn that defense around.

Win1ForMe
10-12-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Rowand is okay to have on the bench. Meanwhile we need somebody to play center field next year -- like we have every year since 1995. Kenny Lofton is looking pretty good these days... but we couldn't hustle him out of town quick enough.


I agree with the Rowand assesment, he can't play CF but I could possibly live with him as a platoon LF should Carlos be traded. But Kenny should really look to get a center fielder like you said.

BTW, Kenny Lofton = piece of crap. Look at how much better his numbers are playing for the Cubs than they were for the White Sox.

Sox: .259/.348/.418
Cubs: .327/.381/.471

poorme
10-12-2003, 10:37 AM
the problem with rowand is that he hits like a CF, but fields like a LF. he's a 4th outfielder at best. ooops.. I didn't make it out to the park last year. Is there any chance Harris can play CF adequately? He's hit very well in the minors and walks a lot. Perhaps his low avg in the majors is an aberration.

Lip Man 1
10-12-2003, 10:58 AM
Poorme:

Thank you for using upper case letters. It makes your posts much easier to read.

and Win1ForMe says: Kenny Lofton = piece of crap. Look at how much better his numbers are playing for the Cubs than they were for the White Sox.

Ummmm maybe that's because he has a better team and far better manager around him to push the right buttons or perhaps it's because, as I have stated in the past, many free agents sign with the Sox because they have no other place to go and don't really want to play for Uncle jerry.

Lip

RichH55
10-12-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Poorme:

Thank you for using upper case letters. It makes your posts much easier to read.

and Win1ForMe says: Kenny Lofton = piece of crap. Look at how much better his numbers are playing for the Cubs than they were for the White Sox.

Ummmm maybe that's because he has a better team and far better manager around him to push the right buttons or perhaps it's because, as I have stated in the past, many free agents sign with the Sox because they have no other place to go and don't really want to play for Uncle jerry.

Lip

Kenny Lofton is a shell of his former self

We dealt him and got a pretty good prospect for him......If Kenny Lofton means a World Series I'd be shocked....He isn't even that great a Fantasy OF anymore, let alone a real OF......

We need a CF(I'm not sure he isnt in the org. already)...but Kenny Lofton is not the answer

RichH55
10-12-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I'm not sure about Rowand. I used to think that he'd be a great alternative in CF once he'd recovered from that (stupid) dirt bike accident. The arguments that you (and others) have put forth, however, are pretty convincing that he's not the answer. We may, of course, find that KW ends up trying him out, as he has stated that pitching will be his focus in the off season. If that is the case, and Rowand does indeed fail to pan out, I suppose that KW can try another round of mid-season acquisitions.

Your description above did remind me of another player on the Sox going back a year or two -- Carlos Lee. Lee had shown some hitting ability (as Rowand has done lately), but he was terrible in the field. I'm not sure what he was able to do (or the Sox were able to do with him) to turn that defense around.


Comparing Carlos to Aaron is laughable

Carlos was always "expected" to put up good-great numbers, and always had power potential

Aaron Rowand doesn't hit 30 HR if we are playing 16 inch Softball

Also, Carlos is only being asked to play LF ( Much different than CF), and was moved from infield to outfield...which is quite different than being an OF your whole life

oldcomiskey
10-17-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by soxfan26
Who are you going to trade Koch for? Does anyone have a need for a eccentric reliever with a dead arm? Probably not. Koch will stay with the Sox because you can't trade him at this point for any value.

PK on the other hand can take his GIDP's elsewhere. He does present an attractive offer to a team willing to pay him $5-6m, and it would clear up the log jam at DH and 1B.

Valentin could be dropped if we could pick up a player of Cabrera's caliber. A SS with BELOW AVERAGE range who hits .230 with 25 HRs is useless. Cabrera could bat at the top of the order and fits the bill of "grinder" a bit better.

"You people" don't like Manos because he is not worth his weight in batting gloves.

thats an opinion on his range I take it and the weight in batting gloves remark..he was 7th in the major leagues last season in range factor for SS and 2nd in the american league--maybe you should rethink that about Manos having below average range