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View Full Version : Interesting article about Sox on ESPN


Win1ForMe
10-10-2003, 01:20 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/story?id=1634819

It's a pretty good read. Jim Baker notes how the fortunes of the Sox and Cubs may change next year, and how each team may reverse roles.

He also offers this opinion on resigning Colon (one which I tend to agree with):

"Colon had a real "buyer beware" season in 2003. Where are the strikeouts from two and three years ago? In 2000 and 2001 he had worked his way up to whiffing a batter an inning. In the past two seasons that's fallen off by a third. What is more, he's walking more men than he has previously. This isn't to say Colon isn't worth having on a roster, it's to point out that he has not been the pitcher he was when he was making his reputation and, therefore, might not be worth the kind of money he's going to ask for."

Win1ForMe
10-10-2003, 01:22 PM
Actually, I realize some may not have Insider, so here's the whole article:
------------------------------------------------
VC Edit: It is a violation of copyright laws to copy and paste entire articles from other sites. Can you please post just some choice sections and let people sign up if they want to?

Thanks and sorry for screwing with your post.

MRKARNO
10-10-2003, 03:56 PM
Could you at least summarize the most important points for us?

nodiggity59
10-10-2003, 04:24 PM
yes please that would be appreciated

poorme
10-10-2003, 05:03 PM
colon's lack of K's is not a good sign. wonder if KW even noticed.

MarkEdward
10-10-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by poorme
colon's lack of K's is not a good sign. wonder if KW even noticed.

Actually, his K/9 IP went up this year (6.4 in '03 compared to 5.8 in '02). Still not as good as his 2000 and 2001 highs, but not bad nonetheless. Plus, his walk rate went down, so that's a good sign.

poorme
10-10-2003, 05:16 PM
colon is a good pitcher, but i wouldn't expect him to be any better than he was this year.

voodoochile
10-10-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by poorme
colon is a good pitcher, but i wouldn't expect him to be any better than he was this year.

That would be okay. He pitches a lot of innings, intimidates opposing batters and has an ERA under 4.

poorme
10-10-2003, 05:21 PM
let's just not pay him like he's a legit #1 20 game winner type, which he is not......what am i insane? that's one thing i don't have to worry about.

voodoochile
10-10-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by poorme
let's just not pay him like he's a legit #1 20 game winner type, which he is not......what am i insane? that's one thing i don't have to worry about.

Do you think the offer that is supposedly on the table is fair (3yr, $10-12M/yr)?

Hangar18
10-10-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Do you think the offer that is supposedly on the table is fair (3yr, $10-12M/yr)?

Hey Voodoo, I think that offer is More than Fair. In fact, I think
it might be a bit much, but thats the price one pays for a pitcher, Especially TO KEEP A PITCHER. I like His INNINGS PITCHED, he can go deep into games, and eat Innings. WE need that.
WE NEED TO KEEP HIM. IF WE LET HIM GO, we need 2 more pitchers

Foulke You
10-10-2003, 07:00 PM
Plus, let us also not forget that Bartolo is only one year removed from a 20 win season. With a little more run support this year in a few outings or his manager handling him better *cough* Game 3 of the Wrigley Sox/Cubs series *cough* he could very well have had 17 or 18 wins for us. That is performing. Plus, he was magnificent in the stretch run when Loaiza and Garland started to struggle. That game he pitched at Fenway was truly a clinic. Bartolo is a must have for the rotation. I agree with Hangar that if you lose Colon, you'll need 2 pitchers to eat the innings he took up. He rarely came out of games before the 7th or 8th inning.

The main thing I love about Bartolo is his mound presence. The Sox have stocked up on too many weak minded pitchers in the past. He isn't the slightest bit intimidated up there and he doesn't make many mental mistakes like Garland and Wright. I believe our divison title hopes depend on if he decides to take KW's offer.

poorme
10-10-2003, 09:07 PM
it's hard to say how much colon should be paid without knowing what the total budget is. 3 years, 30 mil is a fair offer. if some other team offers him 4-5 years, i'd say let him go. the one thing JR has been pretty smart on is avoiding long term contracts on pitchers.

gosox41
10-10-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by poorme
colon's lack of K's is not a good sign. wonder if KW even noticed.

I doubt it. I'd be a little weary of signing Colon for $10-12 mill. range.

Does anyone think the Red Sox will drop out of the bidding for Colon because Epstein (and Voros McCracken) are so much into the numbers and are surely aware of this alarming trend?

Bob

WhiteSox = Life
10-11-2003, 12:02 AM
I thought I read via Phil Rogers at some point over the last year or two that Colon's strikeouts decreasing is a good thing because he's pitching more and not relying on just whipping the ball as hard as he can for strikeouts. Granted, he can still zip the ball in and does when he needs to (and quite effectively, also), but by pitching more than throwing, he lessens the amount of tiredness he feels and is able to pitch even deeper into ballgames.

Pardon my logic, or memory, if I'm wrong, but I thought there was something similar to that. Is this true, or not?

soxtalker
10-11-2003, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I doubt it. I'd be a little weary of signing Colon for $10-12 mill. range.

Does anyone think the Red Sox will drop out of the bidding for Colon because Epstein (and Voros McCracken) are so much into the numbers and are surely aware of this alarming trend?

Bob

Good point. I wonder also how Colon fares with other stats Epstein is using? E.g., ground balls vs. fly balls.

soxtalker
10-11-2003, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
I thought I read via Phil Rogers at some point over the last year or two that Colon's strikeouts decreasing is a good thing because he's pitching more and not relying on just whipping the ball as hard as he can for strikeouts. Granted, he can still zip the ball in and does when he needs to (and quite effectively, also), but by pitching more than throwing, he lessens the amount of tiredness he feels and is able to pitch even deeper into ballgames.

Pardon my logic, or memory, if I'm wrong, but I thought there was something similar to that. Is this true, or not?

I don't know if Phil said it, but let's assume that he did. It sounds like a good story, but I'm not sure that I buy it entirely. Sure, a number of hard-throwing young studs have turned into craftly veterans. But there is no guarantee. The real question is what the result is. If he starts using lots of different speeds, why shouldn't he get just as many strike outs?

poorme
10-11-2003, 08:15 AM
phil rogers is dumb, so i don't put any credence in that. colon is a good pitcher. a very good pitcher. but he's no clemens, pedro, jason schmidt, mark prior, schilling, unit, halladay, zito, hudson, etc, etc. let's just not forget that.

oldcomiskey
10-11-2003, 10:40 AM
Bart is a must sign if we are even going to come close to competing in 04.. we still need one more pitcher in the rotation to make sure Danny Wright never sees daylight again---yes I know he was hurt but he didnt impress me when he wasnt

Besides the question to ask is this--where will Konerko end up? I still say that Daubach was brought here to push Lee and or Konerko---Lee had the year of his life and Konerko fell from grace(no pun intented).. My thoughts are you can get a nice SP fpr Konerko--put Daubach at DH--Frank at first----if Brian was used correctly in 03--he would have put up better numbers

poorme
10-11-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
My thoughts are you can get a nice SP fpr Konerko

you need to dipel yourself of such thoughts. dispel them too.

RichH55
10-11-2003, 02:36 PM
Plus if Colon is gone we get a 1st from the team that signs him and a good sandwich pick right?

poorme
10-11-2003, 03:18 PM
normally that would be a saving grace, but with our drafting record??

RichH55
10-11-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by poorme
normally that would be a saving grace, but with our drafting record??


Was 2003 regarded as a banner year for White Sox drafting....plus...if you get 8 picks in the first two rounds...only have to get two right for it to be a great draft:) Quantity helps with the quality here

oldcomiskey
10-17-2003, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by poorme
you need to dipel yourself of such thoughts. dispel them too.

How do you figure?? How else are we gonna get Danny Wright out of the rotation---And Daubach could do the job-and from the left side too

poorme
10-17-2003, 08:19 AM
No. The point is no one wants Konerko. You couldn't trade him for a backup catcher in AAA, let alone a decent starting pitcher.

mike squires
10-17-2003, 08:51 AM
I know this is a Colone thread but I need to reply on the Konerko thought. We all know Konerko is a 1/2 type of layer. Either real good in the first half and sucks in the second or vice-versa...what if we keep him, start him and if he tears it up we trade him to someone willing and who's in contention. If he flops the first half simply bench him like we did this year. The only downside to that is if he bombs the first half we are taking a risk at blowing it early. This guy was a big reason we were in it down the stretch.

minastirith67
10-17-2003, 09:31 AM
I say we get rid of Konerko in a deal for a good SP (Pettitte, perhaps). Colon should be a must-keep. Konerko is far too inconsistent to be anything special (so far). Do you really think Konerko will turn into the kind of all-star that Sox management originally envisioned or is he a lost cause?

boog_alou
10-17-2003, 09:42 AM
Baseball Weekly has reported that the Sox upped their offer to 3 years/$40 million, which works out to $13.3 million per year. If the Sox reported 3 years/$30-36 million offer was of questionable wisdom, then this offer is way overboard.

Colon is NOT an ace. He's a solid, dependable #2. That contact is not what you want to pay a #2 starter.

kittle42
10-17-2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by minastirith67
I say we get rid of Konerko in a deal for a good SP (Pettitte, perhaps).

Konerko for the most NY-looking Texas native ever? Steinbrenner would fire Brian Cashman immediately.

Iwritecode
10-17-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Baseball Weekly has reported that the Sox upped their offer to 3 years/$40 million, which works out to $13.3 million per year. If the Sox reported 3 years/$30-36 million offer was of questionable wisdom, then this offer is way overboard.

Colon is NOT an ace. He's a solid, dependable #2. That contact is not what you want to pay a #2 starter.

So who would you suggest the Sox go after to fill out their rotation?

boog_alou
10-17-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
So who would you suggest the Sox go after to fill out their rotation?

That's a good question. IF the Sox payroll ceiling is $60 million (which I think is a slightly high estimate), they they are limited. I haven't studied the stats of the various free agents, but off the top of my head, I might consider Brian Anderson and/or Wilson Alvarez.