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View Full Version : Flubs WS, effect on White Sox


LittleBears Suck
10-10-2003, 07:21 AM
In the movie Life of David Gale, David Gale is a college philosophy professor. The movie begins with Gale giving a lecture on the nature of lust. He asks us to imagine our wildest fantasy. He then asks us is it the fantasy that we long for, or just lust for the fantasy. Is it really that woman we want to sleep with, or are we merely attached to the idea of lusting for her? Same with food, money, job, car, etc...when the object of our fantasy ultimately proves unfruitful and unfulfilling, we realize we were more attached to our own desire than to the object of our desire.

I would argue the same could be said for Cub fans and a World Series title. There's no doubt that many, even semi-fans of the Cubs will claim to long for a World Series title. Everything that is beign a fan of the Cubs is about being one to long for that title. (See also: Red Sox). In terms of winning traditions, the Cubs are not the Yankees, Cardinals, even the Reds or Pirates, and they never will be. They have a history that suggests futility and patheticity.

A world series title, however, momentarily negates that lousiness. All of a sudden, the Cubs are normal. They're nothing special. They're not the Cubs anymore, they're not the Red Sox.

What is the effect of this realization? The dream is gone. It's over. The Cubs won the world series, and now we see that it was better to long for the dream on a lousy team, then realize it on a good team. The lust is over, and nothing else can feed it.

With this total identity shift in place for the North-siders, I would posit that a significant amount of attention will be lost. Sure, there are legitimate die-hard Cubs fans who understand winning and will be satisfied with a title. But what of the corporate exec who no longer has an image to offer the client? Or the Grandfather who has sat through 75 years of futility? Or the teenie bopper whose interest was nominal at best? The shallow fan will be lost without an image to tie on to.

For that reason, I would argue, a Cubs World Series title might not only be harmful to the Cubs, but beneficial to the White sox. Fan interest would inevitably dwindle -- in the long run -- as the team's image drifted to mediocrity and nothingspecialness.

ChiSox14305635
10-10-2003, 08:27 AM
You bring up an interesting point. HBO recently ran a special called "Curse of the Bambino", which was about Red Sox fans awaiting a WS championship from the Red Sox. Some fans said they wouldn't know how to react to the team once it finally happened. The same thing could very well happen to the North Siders.

Hangar18
10-10-2003, 09:03 AM
Interesting point, I will say this. one of 2 things is going to happen. the first, which what you stated, is a real possibility.
However, you did NOT take into Context the MEDIA. If the media werent involved (and whom created the "mystique" the cubs enjoy in the first place) The media simply wont just WALK AWAY from a story. In fact, as were getting to see on a daily basis, THE MEDIA IS LAZY. IF one guy is making a "Story", the others will soon Follow suit, Only to not let themselves get "OutScooped". Which is why you see outlets all over Creation REHASHING the Same StoryLines, The Same Angles, Repeating the Same Rubbish Over and Over again. Im trying to think which Media Outlet HASNT used the "Good For Baseball" tag.
Its really Deplorable. and Irresponsible. and Completely
Unprofessional. We are in LEVEL ORANGE of the Medias Shock and Awe ASSAULT on our Thinking and Actions. The SunTimes arent that ORIGINAL, with their "declaration" of the Media Owned team being "americas team". The Cubune and Wgn started throwing
that term around during the Braves series. The Times, IN TRUE ORANGE LEVEL actions, took that a step further and did the FRONT PAGE THING. Of course, this action now will make ESPN to make some kind of outlandish Statement to Outdo them all.
These are dark and dangerous times for us. We are NOT in control of our destiny unfortuneately. In other words, I think the LAtter will happen

jortafan
10-10-2003, 09:08 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't buy the theory that a Cubs world series title would be beneficial to the White Sox.

Don't forget that for many of the people who go out there, the atmosphere is the reason, not the ballgame itself. They'll still have their ivy, their neighborhood, their overpreponderance of day baseball and all the other little trivial aspects that make people think of Cubs baseball as unique.

Winning (or losing) a world series is irrelevant to many of them. It's why I believe that a championship for the Cubs is a complete waste. Their fans wouldn't understand its significance enough to appreciate it.

And for the few Cubs fans who do understand the concept of the ballgame, they already have their "first postseason series victory in 95 years" to brag about. They will live off that for years. It's like the Cubs fan I know who insists to this day that by winning the tie-breaking playoff game against San Francisco for the wild card post in 1998, the Cubs had a completely successful season, and whatever happened in the playoffs that year was irrelevant.

michned
10-10-2003, 09:34 AM
Dead on correct! Many people will remember that the Cubs were just another mediocre baseball team until their success in 1984. By that time, cable TV had started to proliferate and the Cubs' success was definitely something different to write about. Not only that, but Harry Caray was entertaining. Between the Cubs success that year and the entertainment that Harry provided, no media outlet could resist a story like that.

To me, that's when it seemed like the Cubs' presence in the national eye really started to take off. Talk about media saturation. On every TV show that was set in Chicago, there was always the obligatory Wrigley Field scene. It was the "in" thing. I was shocked when the movie "Red Heat" came out after that and featured a scene at Comiskey Park. The director said at the time he wanted to do the scene at Wrigley but the plot called for a night scene.

And I don't believe Reinsdorf fought back hard enough from a marketing standpoint at that time, since he was just mostly concerned with trying to get a new stadium. There was a great article in the Sporting News about 15 years ago, comparing the Cubs and the Sox. They compared attendance totals for something like the previous 50 years, and remarkably, I think the Cubs outdrew the Sox by a total of something like only 30,000 people. That is a total figure spread across 50 years!

Now, that "mindset" that the media has created over the past 20 years makes most people across the country associate Chicago with the Cubs and Wrigley Field. And Uncle Jerry, I feel, is at least partially to blame.

hold2dibber
10-10-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by LittleBears Suck
In the movie Life of David Gale, David Gale is a college philosophy professor. The movie begins with Gale giving a lecture on the nature of lust. He asks us to imagine our wildest fantasy. He then asks us is it the fantasy that we long for, or just lust for the fantasy. Is it really that woman we want to sleep with, or are we merely attached to the idea of lusting for her? Same with food, money, job, car, etc...when the object of our fantasy ultimately proves unfruitful and unfulfilling, we realize we were more attached to our own desire than to the object of our desire.

I would argue the same could be said for Cub fans and a World Series title. There's no doubt that many, even semi-fans of the Cubs will claim to long for a World Series title. Everything that is beign a fan of the Cubs is about being one to long for that title. (See also: Red Sox). In terms of winning traditions, the Cubs are not the Yankees, Cardinals, even the Reds or Pirates, and they never will be. They have a history that suggests futility and patheticity.

A world series title, however, momentarily negates that lousiness. All of a sudden, the Cubs are normal. They're nothing special. They're not the Cubs anymore, they're not the Red Sox.

What is the effect of this realization? The dream is gone. It's over. The Cubs won the world series, and now we see that it was better to long for the dream on a lousy team, then realize it on a good team. The lust is over, and nothing else can feed it.

With this total identity shift in place for the North-siders, I would posit that a significant amount of attention will be lost. Sure, there are legitimate die-hard Cubs fans who understand winning and will be satisfied with a title. But what of the corporate exec who no longer has an image to offer the client? Or the Grandfather who has sat through 75 years of futility? Or the teenie bopper whose interest was nominal at best? The shallow fan will be lost without an image to tie on to.

For that reason, I would argue, a Cubs World Series title might not only be harmful to the Cubs, but beneficial to the White sox. Fan interest would inevitably dwindle -- in the long run -- as the team's image drifted to mediocrity and nothingspecialness.

Wishful thinking, but not gonna happen. As I've posted elsewhere, it has always been tough for the Sox to compete with the Cubs' "lovable losers" image. It will be even harder for them to compete with a "lovable winners" image. They'll still have their "chamring" ball park in a "charming" neighborhood, owned by a giant media conglomerate, etc., etc. They'll be more of a draw than ever.

But there could be a silver lining for the Sox. I think there is a possibility that the soaring popularity of the Cubs will create some backlash. When EVERY visiting business person wants to go to Wrigley, and EVERY casual baseball fan in the area wants to visit the "Shrine," prices go up, congestion goes up, etc. There will be opportunity for the Sox, particularly with respect to people who want a decent value and who don't want the difficulties of the congestion/traffic/parking situation around Wrigley. Even with the Cubs getting more and more popular, there will be plenty of people left to support the Sox - if they play their cards right (and that, based upon the last 20 years of mismanagement under JR, is one big if).

Dan H
10-10-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by jortafan
I'm sorry, but I don't buy the theory that a Cubs world series title would be beneficial to the White Sox.

Don't forget that for many of the people who go out there, the atmosphere is the reason, not the ballgame itself. They'll still have their ivy, their neighborhood, their overpreponderance of day baseball and all the other little trivial aspects that make people think of Cubs baseball as unique.

Winning (or losing) a world series is irrelevant to many of them. It's why I believe that a championship for the Cubs is a complete waste. Their fans wouldn't understand its significance enough to appreciate it.

And for the few Cubs fans who do understand the concept of the ballgame, they already have their "first postseason series victory in 95 years" to brag about. They will live off that for years. It's like the Cubs fan I know who insists to this day that by winning the tie-breaking playoff game against San Francisco for the wild card post in 1998, the Cubs had a completely successful season, and whatever happened in the playoffs that year was irrelevant.

I agree. A world series title for the Cubs will not be beneficial to the Sox in itself. The only way it could be is if the Sox become determined to match that success. But if all the Sox offer is a rookie manager and a so-so team next year, the team will be buried by the Cub avalanche. The White Sox cannot generate the PR and attention the Cubs are getting and will get. They have to do it on the field, and they haven't proved they can do it yet.

hold2dibber
10-10-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Dan H
I agree. A world series title for the Cubs will not be beneficial to the Sox in itself. The only way it could be is if the Sox become determined to match that success. But if all the Sox offer is a rookie manager and a so-so team next year, the team will be buried by the Cub avalanche. The White Sox cannot generate the PR and attention the Cubs are getting and will get. They have to do it on the field, and they haven't proved they can do it yet.

That's a great point - if the Cubs continue to do well in the post season (and I for one am convinced that they will), JR would be nuts not to dig deep into those pockets to make sure that the Sox are contenders next year. Of course, the other approach (and one which may well appeal to JR) is to concede that the Cubs success in '03 means that the Sox will be unable to compete in this town for the next few years, no matter what they do, so they're better off down sizing and cutting their losses. Yick.

dougs78
10-10-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by LittleBears Suck
In the movie Life of David Gale, David Gale is a college philosophy professor. The movie begins with Gale giving a lecture on the nature of lust. He asks us to imagine our wildest fantasy. He then asks us is it the fantasy that we long for, or just lust for the fantasy. Is it really that woman we want to sleep with, or are we merely attached to the idea of lusting for her? Same with food, money, job, car, etc...when the object of our fantasy ultimately proves unfruitful and unfulfilling, we realize we were more attached to our own desire than to the object of our desire.

I would argue the same could be said for Cub fans and a World Series title. There's no doubt that many, even semi-fans of the Cubs will claim to long for a World Series title. Everything that is beign a fan of the Cubs is about being one to long for that title. (See also: Red Sox). In terms of winning traditions, the Cubs are not the Yankees, Cardinals, even the Reds or Pirates, and they never will be. They have a history that suggests futility and patheticity.

A world series title, however, momentarily negates that lousiness. All of a sudden, the Cubs are normal. They're nothing special. They're not the Cubs anymore, they're not the Red Sox.

What is the effect of this realization? The dream is gone. It's over. The Cubs won the world series, and now we see that it was better to long for the dream on a lousy team, then realize it on a good team. The lust is over, and nothing else can feed it.

With this total identity shift in place for the North-siders, I would posit that a significant amount of attention will be lost. Sure, there are legitimate die-hard Cubs fans who understand winning and will be satisfied with a title. But what of the corporate exec who no longer has an image to offer the client? Or the Grandfather who has sat through 75 years of futility? Or the teenie bopper whose interest was nominal at best? The shallow fan will be lost without an image to tie on to.

For that reason, I would argue, a Cubs World Series title might not only be harmful to the Cubs, but beneficial to the White sox. Fan interest would inevitably dwindle -- in the long run -- as the team's image drifted to mediocrity and nothingspecialness.


The first part of this is dead on correct. Human nature is not to enjoy simply the outcome, but the journey in getting there. This to me was why the first part of the Bulls run in the 90's was so fulfilling. THey paid their dues, they went one round farther each year and finally it all just clicked. I believe there was some quote from someone in the NBA who talked about how what fans really wanted was to be "just that close" to success. I think there is a lot of truth to that. Its the chase we like.

However, that being said, I really don't agree that the Cubs winning the WS would be beneficial to the Sox, or hurtful to the Cubs. In fact I think the opposite. Sure it would hurt the "loveable loser" image, but it would just be replaced with a "loveable winner." This would be all the more insidious, because the Cubs fan who actually know baseball would finally be vindicated. The bandwagon would grow even more as those individuals who are sort of just there all the sudden become real fans.

What Little Bear is saying might be true if this year was truly a fluke for the Cubs and they really had no chance of success again next year. However, with Prior and apparently Wood doing well, this team could be looking at a string of very fruitful years.

34 Inch Stick
10-10-2003, 11:00 AM
For that reason, I would argue, a Cubs World Series title might not only be harmful to the Cubs, but beneficial to the White sox. Fan interest would inevitably dwindle -- in the long run -- as the team's image drifted to mediocrity and nothingspecialness.


AWAY SATAN!!

Do not listen to this siren song luring us to cheer for Cub victory in hopes of a beneficial Sox residue. Bad is not good. Up is not down. The golden calf cannot be worshipped just because we have been stuck in the desert for so long.

It would be easy to join the masses. Give in to what society and the media are telling you is the right thing to do.

NOT ME.

GO FISH. GO RED SOX. GO YANKEES. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY- GO WHITE SOX.

I finally know what those goofy Beverly people are talking about when they say the Go-Go White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs.

voodoochile
10-10-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by michned
Dead on correct! Many people will remember that the Cubs were just another mediocre baseball team until their success in 1984. By that time, cable TV had started to proliferate and the Cubs' success was definitely something different to write about. Not only that, but Harry Caray was entertaining. Between the Cubs success that year and the entertainment that Harry provided, no media outlet could resist a story like that.

To me, that's when it seemed like the Cubs' presence in the national eye really started to take off. Talk about media saturation. On every TV show that was set in Chicago, there was always the obligatory Wrigley Field scene. It was the "in" thing. I was shocked when the movie "Red Heat" came out after that and featured a scene at Comiskey Park. The director said at the time he wanted to do the scene at Wrigley but the plot called for a night scene.

And I don't believe Reinsdorf fought back hard enough from a marketing standpoint at that time, since he was just mostly concerned with trying to get a new stadium. There was a great article in the Sporting News about 15 years ago, comparing the Cubs and the Sox. They compared attendance totals for something like the previous 50 years, and remarkably, I think the Cubs outdrew the Sox by a total of something like only 30,000 people. That is a total figure spread across 50 years!

Now, that "mindset" that the media has created over the past 20 years makes most people across the country associate Chicago with the Cubs and Wrigley Field. And Uncle Jerry, I feel, is at least partially to blame.

Welcome Aboard! :D:

JR, his PR staff and their decisions are 90% of the problem, IMO

TDog
10-10-2003, 12:47 PM
The dynamic between the Cubs and the Sox is very different than the one that exists in New York between the Yankees and the Mets, where both teams seem to be able to peacefully co-exist. I even saw a chess set with Yankees commemorated on the black pieces, opposite the Mets on the white. (It may have been the other way around, but I don't think you would ever see something similar in Chicago.) The thing between Sox and Cubs fans goes way back, and I am wondering if the Cubs need the Sox so they can pump up their own self worth. Even when the Cubs are lousy, there are people who go to the games and talk about how no one cares about the Sox. Casual baseball fans don't drift to the Sox because being a Sox fans is so demanding. You have to learn the names of the players, watch the game, etc.

I wonder, though, if Cubs success -- aside from an odd fluke season -- might end up hurting the mystique. When Cubs fans become cocky (that almost sounds like a Fox TV special), will they demand to win? Will people stop showing an interest in the team if they start to lose?

I read some years ago (I don't know how true this is) that the Bears had no problems selling tickets forever. Then they won the Super Bowl. Then a few years later, they didn't win much at all, and it was easier to get tickets than it had ever been.