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soxfan26
10-09-2003, 02:38 PM
I'm sure it's been done before, but with all the hype surrounding Frank's potential offensively and defensively at 1B I took a look inside the numbers.

Prior to the JM era ('90-'96)

AVG HR RBI
.327 222 729

Games at 1B - 743
Games at DH - 187

JM era ('97-'03)

AVG HR RBI
.292 192 661

Games at 1B - 224
Games at DH - 697

So in the JM era Frank's offensive production has slipped by about .035 points of BA, 30 HRs, and 68 RBIs.

Those differences would be completely erased had he played a full season in 2001.

During that same span his playing time and 1B and DH has almost been completely reversed (+ or - 35 games)

Frank has played 90+ games at 1B in 7 seasons, during those 7 seasons he averaged 10 errors a year.

The bottom line is god willing this man will wear a Sox hat into coopers town. If he wants to play 1B, let him play 1B.

If you want to improve defense do it up the middle at 2B, SS, and CF.

As for your franchise player, your veteran leader, your 2 time MVP, and 5 time All-Star. Make him happy, and watch him rack up the RBIs.

poorme
10-09-2003, 02:43 PM
while i agree with your conclusion, those numbers are more likely explained by aging, injury, and mental problems. (frank's, not yours). you need to look at each year separately and then compare how he hit at 1B vs. DH.

soxfan26
10-09-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by poorme
while i agree with your conclusion, those numbers are more likely explained by aging, injury, and mental problems. (frank's, not yours). you need to look at each year separately and then compare how he hit at 1B vs. DH.

What I was trying to stress is that with those stats we see two opposites, Frank playing mostly 1B ('90-'96), and Frank being a DH ('97-'03).

During both time spans he put up similar numbers.

A few have said it before me, but the 1B-DH thing seems to be mostly in Frank's head.

Stats can be presented 1,000 different ways and interpreted 10,000 different ways, but the guy is still killing the ball, and is a relative bargain at $6 M(his option), or even at $8 M (club option).

The lack of respect for Frank by certain members of the board is astounding.

RKMeibalane
10-09-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
What I was trying to stress is that with those stats we see two opposites, Frank playing mostly 1B ('90-'96), and Frank being a DH ('97-'03).

During both time spans he put up similar numbers.

A few have said it before me, but the 1B-DH thing seems to be mostly in Frank's head.

Stats can be presented 1,000 different ways and interpreted 10,000 different ways, but the guy is still killing the ball, and is a relative bargain at $6 M(his option), or even at $8 M (club option).

The lack of respect for Frank by certain members of the board is astounding.

I agree. People seem to want to blame this situation entirely on Frank. I don't think that's fair. Theoretically, a player should be able to hit regardless of where he plays, but Frank is not able to do that for some reason. Therefore, it is the manager's responsibility to play him where he wil be most effective. If the new manager can understand this (Manuel couldn't), the Sox will be better off.

fquaye149
10-09-2003, 07:37 PM
manuel was absolutely right not to let frank play the field...

how do you think that effects your pitcher knowing your 1b man is the worst in the league? the man who will touch the ball on every non fly/non strike out?

as opposed to teh team fielding a very very solid defense last year...we would have had a gaping hole on the right side of the field at 1b if frank had played

guillen4life13
10-09-2003, 07:43 PM
As has been said many times before, Frank's fielding problems center around his throwing arm. That means that it's easier for runners to steal (but I think Miggy can keep them in check) on a pickoff to first, and that it's harder to turn those rare 3-6-3 or 3-4-3 DPs.

In the big scheme of things, I don't think that will make a difference, because the chances of runners successfully stealing are very low with Miggy behind the plate. And those 3-6-3/3-4-3 DP's are quite few and far between.

He's a bigger target than PK, let me tell you that much.

soxtalker
10-09-2003, 07:46 PM
Look, I would have played Frank instead of Konerko during the latter half of this season as long as it continued to boost his batting average. But do any of you remember the furor after the last play of the 2000 play-offs? Seattle bunted toward Frank on purpose, knowing that he'd have trouble fielding it.

RKMeibalane
10-09-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Look, I would have played Frank instead of Konerko during the latter half of this season as long as it continued to boost his batting average. But do any of you remember the furor after the last play of the 2000 play-offs? Seattle bunted toward Frank on purpose, knowing that he'd have trouble fielding it.

The way I see, the Sox are screwed either way. If you play Frank at first, there is the possibility that his defense may not be the greatest. Having said, he is nowhere near as bad defensively as some people would like to believe. If you don't play him at first, then his batting average is lower than what it would be otherwise, and the offense goes through its series of peaks and valleys, as we saw during the month of September.

Just so I'm clear on where I stand, I'm not advocating that Frank should play first base every day. I do think, however, that he should play first the vast majority of the time. In the event that teams start bunting on him, someone can be used as defensive replcement late in games.

bc2k
10-09-2003, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Look, I would have played Frank instead of Konerko during the latter half of this season as long as it continued to boost his batting average. But do any of you remember the furor after the last play of the 2000 play-offs? Seattle bunted toward Frank on purpose, knowing that he'd have trouble fielding it.

Yeah, we remember, but it was only one game.

soxfan26
10-09-2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Just so I'm clear on where I stand, I'm not advocating that Frank should play first base every day. I do think, however, that he should play first the vast majority of the time. In the event that teams start bunting on him, someone can be used as defensive replacement late in games.

EXACTLY!

Keeping Frank in a regular rotation at 1B will help his stats.

Obviously if you find yourself in a position where he is a glaring weakness, you DH him and find a replacement.

My point is his defense is not bad enough to warrant the DH for life mentality that JM had.

RKMeibalane
10-09-2003, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Yeah, we remember, but it was only one game.

Exactly. Besides, the entire team sucked during the 2000 playoffs. Frank's defense would not have prevented the Sox from being swept, because too other holes had been exposed by that point.

Adding on to another point made earlier, I think there are some people here who just like to blame all of the Sox problems on Frank. That is both unfair and unreasonable. Frank has his weaknesses and his short-comings, but he was not the problem in 2000, and he was not the problem this season. I can think of several other reasons why the Sox didn't make the playoffs, and those are the problems that need to be dealt with first.

Allowing your most productive hitter to leave would not be step forward, IMO.

poorme
10-09-2003, 08:26 PM
i question if he's ever been coached to play first properly. also, if he's going to play first, he has to do it on a regular basis. the way manuel used him was absurd.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-09-2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
....My point is his defense is not bad enough to warrant the DH for life mentality that JM had.

LOL! Who can forget this pearl of wisdom from that idiot...

:jerry
"I can't imagine any situation short of an emergency for playing Frank back at first base."

:ohno
"That's right, Jerry... MVP candidates grow on trees... and don't the Sox have so many better options for making up for the lack of offensive production!"

:walnuts :maggs
"Whoops! Grounded into another double-play!! Gosh darnit!!!"

RKMeibalane
10-09-2003, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
LOL! Who can forget this pearl of wisdom from that idiot...

:jerry
"I can't imagine any situation short of an emergency for playing Frank back at first base."

:ohno
"That's right, Jerry... MVP candidates grow on trees... and don't the Sox have so many better options for making up for the lack of offensive production!"

:walnuts :maggs
"Whoops! Grounded into another double-play!! Gosh darnit!!!"

Looking back at that situation, I'm surprised nobody in the front office said something to Manuel about playing Frank more at first base. We already suspect/know that Manuel was in hot water with management because of his tinkering. I wonder why this never became an issue with Sox brass.

Perhaps Manuel's misuse of Frank was one of the many reasons why he was fired. Personally, I would have canned him for that mess, alone.

ewokpelts
10-09-2003, 09:06 PM
Konerko was Manuel's boy. He was only benched when his coma brought his BA close ot the Mendoza Line. Frank, however, was benched more than once last year for "slumps" that lasted barely a week.

This year, I regained alot of respect for Frank. Not coincidentaly, that's in direct proportion to the ammount of respect LOST for Konerko. Frank can field. The only proof I need is the Dodgers series.

Gene

gosox41
10-09-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Exactly. Besides, the entire team sucked during the 2000 playoffs. Frank's defense would not have prevented the Sox from being swept, because too other holes had been exposed by that point.

Adding on to another point made earlier, I think there are some people here who just like to blame all of the Sox problems on Frank. That is both unfair and unreasonable. Frank has his weaknesses and his short-comings, but he was not the problem in 2000, and he was not the problem this season. I can think of several other reasons why the Sox didn't make the playoffs, and those are the problems that need to be dealt with first.

Allowing your most productive hitter to leave would not be step forward, IMO.

Finally a voice of reason.

Bob

gosox41
10-09-2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Looking back at that situation, I'm surprised nobody in the front office said something to Manuel about playing Frank more at first base. We already suspect/know that Manuel was in hot water with management because of his tinkering. I wonder why this never became an issue with Sox brass.

Perhaps Manuel's misuse of Frank was one of the many reasons why he was fired. Personally, I would have canned him for that mess, alone.

I don't think KW likes Frank enough to hold it against JM for not playing him at 1B.

Bob

voodoochile
10-09-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I don't think KW likes Frank enough to hold it against JM for not playing him at 1B.

Bob

Follow the money. If Frank is an MVP candidate then the Sox have to pay him. JR has been trying to run him out of town for years now...

Daver
10-09-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Follow the money. If Frank is an MVP candidate then the Sox have to pay him. JR has been trying to run him out of town for years now...

No JR hasn't,he told Frank NOT to sign the long term deal that had the diminished skills clause in it,and went out of his way to have a contract for Frank drawn up in the last offseason that will pay Frank better than what was available on the FA market,and chose to eat the diminshed skills clause.JR did not have to offer to give Frank a new deal,he could have stuck to the contract he had signed,he chose not to.I don't see how this is running Frank out of town.

RKMeibalane
10-09-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Daver
No JR hasn't,he told Frank NOT to sign the long term deal that had the diminished skills clause in it,and went out of his way to have a contract for Frank drawn up in the last offseason that will pay Frank better than what was available on the FA market,and chose to eat the diminshed skills clause.JR did not have to offer to give Frank a new deal,he could have stuck to the contract he had signed,he chose not to.I don't see how this is running Frank out of town.

I agree. Reinsdorf seems to like Frank, and he has said on numerous occasions that he wants him to finish his career in Chicago. If anyone has been trying to run Frank out of town, it's Williams. He was the one who said last off-season that Frank needed to be willing to be more of team player, or else the Sox organization would have to "turn the page."

voodoochile
10-09-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by Daver
No JR hasn't,he told Frank NOT to sign the long term deal that had the diminished skills clause in it,and went out of his way to have a contract for Frank drawn up in the last offseason that will pay Frank better than what was available on the FA market,and chose to eat the diminshed skills clause.JR did not have to offer to give Frank a new deal,he could have stuck to the contract he had signed,he chose not to.I don't see how this is running Frank out of town.

Well he was the one who invoked the diminished skills clause in the first place wasn't he?

Daver
10-09-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well he was the one who invoked the diminished skills clause in the first place wasn't he?

Probably,but what does that have to do with the rest of my post?

If JR wanted Frank gone he would have been gone already,JR is a businessman first and foremost,and Frank is good for the bottom line.

voodoochile
10-10-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Probably,but what does that have to do with the rest of my post?

If JR wanted Frank gone he would have been gone already,JR is a businessman first and foremost,and Frank is good for the bottom line.

Well, I can't comment on a guy who says, "You shouldn't sign this contract I am offering you" while putting a pen in your hand at the same time. I have a hard time taking the words at face value. The same can be said about his statements about wanting Frank to finish his career here in Chicago in RKM's post. We will see just how serious he is about wanting to have Frank finish his career here if Frank turns down his option.

JR has always been first and foremost about the money. Did anyone tell Farmer to knock it off last spring when he was ripping Frank? JR is a windsock. He will do what he thinks is best for his pocketbook. He honestly believed the fans were fed up with Frank when JM let the whole team make Frank the scapegoat for their problems. The team hasn't done squat to make Frank feel appreciated in the media these past few years. They have allowed the lies, rumors and inneuendo to fester to the point where Frank became enraged. Then after he had a career threatening injury Frank came back and had a bad season by his standards, but not horrible by MLB standards, so they took the first chance they had - from a PR perspective - to invoke that DSC and offered him way less money. They then ignored his 400th HR and 2000th hit until they realized the fans were actually paying attention and celebrating with the big man.

Frank has been getting the shaft from this team for so long, we don't even think about it anymore. All I can say is actions speak louder than words. JR should prove his loyalty and tell Frank right now that he is picking up the team option this season, IMO. But, of course I am biased on the matter...

soxtalker
10-10-2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Looking back at that situation, I'm surprised nobody in the front office said something to Manuel about playing Frank more at first base. We already suspect/know that Manuel was in hot water with management because of his tinkering. I wonder why this never became an issue with Sox brass.

Perhaps Manuel's misuse of Frank was one of the many reasons why he was fired. Personally, I would have canned him for that mess, alone.

One of the things that I didn't understand was why Manuel didn't play Konerko at first some days and Frank at first the other days. But you may have hit upon a reason. If Manuel was in hot water with upper management for changing the line-up so much, perhaps he figured that this kind of platooning wasn't acceptable.

[On the other hand, Manuel did a number of things that made absolutely no sense to me, so it is hard to say what he was thinking.]

cwsox
10-10-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well he was the one who invoked the diminished skills clause in the first place wasn't he?



as I understood it, KW invoked the DSC which angered JR - and Einhorn. That is why the Sox re-did the contract, something rare for them.

JR is a big fan of Thomas and Thomas' end of season quotes were very much hinting he wants to stay here

PaleHoseGeorge
10-10-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
One of the things that I didn't understand was why Manuel didn't play Konerko at first some days and Frank at first the other days. But you may have hit upon a reason. If Manuel was in hot water with upper management for changing the line-up so much, perhaps he figured that this kind of platooning wasn't acceptable.

[On the other hand, Manuel did a number of things that made absolutely no sense to me, so it is hard to say what he was thinking.]

I think you answered your own question. There is no doubt in my mind Manuel regressed as a manager his last 3 years with the team. The nonsensical "thinking" behind his moves became worse and worse.

There was no rhyme or reason to any of what Manuel said and did. You can't make sense out of nonsense. I stopped trying along with his own ballplayers. I recommend not wasting any time wondering about it.

A smart ballclub would have dismissed Manuel in 2001. The Sox waited until 2003. Typical really...

Blooming idiot ----------------> :jerry

voodoochile
10-10-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by cwsox
as I understood it, KW invoked the DSC which angered JR - and Einhorn. That is why the Sox re-did the contract, something rare for them.

JR is a big fan of Thomas and Thomas' end of season quotes were very much hinting he wants to stay here

Hey, I hope you are right. I seriously doubt KW did that on his own and certainly, JR could have reinstated the contract if he chose to or even just continued to pay Frank every week/month without defering the money. He didn't.

I WANT Frank to finish his career here and think he will, but don't think JR has exactly gone out of his way to make the big man feel welcome these past few years as everyone on the team from KW to Willie Harris has tried to make Frank the whipping boy for the rest of the team's problems.

washington
10-10-2003, 01:07 PM
Manual let his hatred for Thomas get in the way of his decisions, once Thomas said he wanted to play first Manual made sure to tell everyone it would only happen over his dead body. After the '00 season Manual's decisions were almost 100% by hunch & it's impossible to make any sense of them at all. What a jerk.

jabrch
10-10-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by cwsox
as I understood it, KW invoked the DSC which angered JR - and Einhorn. That is why the Sox re-did the contract, something rare for them.

JR is a big fan of Thomas and Thomas' end of season quotes were very much hinting he wants to stay here

He did, late in the season, say that "staying in Chicago is not a priority."

I don't know how you can interpret that as hinting he wants to stay. I'd bet he turns down the 6mm and tries to force our hand. I think it would be the end of his days in a Sox uni. I'd miss him, but it would be his own fault for not accepting the measly 6mm that he has due to him.

jabrch
10-10-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Follow the money. If Frank is an MVP candidate then the Sox have to pay him. JR has been trying to run him out of town for years now...

Voodoo, that is nuts. JR owns this team. If he wanted Frank out - Frank would be gone. This franchise has not screwed Frank Thomas. It treated him very well. He has a big house in Oakbrook to prove it. Frank pisses and moans about everything - and then tells us that it "is not a priority to stay in Chicago". Don't make him out to be a marytr.

Lets call it how it is. Frank is one of the two best hitters the Sox have. He has been for over 10 years. He is a HOFer and a great guy to have in the middle of a lineup. Isn't that enough? Why are we making him into a victim? He isn't...

voodoochile
10-10-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Voodoo, that is nuts. JR owns this team. If he wanted Frank out - Frank would be gone. This franchise has not screwed Frank Thomas. It treated him very well. He has a big house in Oakbrook to prove it. Frank pisses and moans about everything - and then tells us that it "is not a priority to stay in Chicago". Don't make him out to be a marytr.

Lets call it how it is. Frank is one of the two best hitters the Sox have. He has been for over 10 years. He is a HOFer and a great guy to have in the middle of a lineup. Isn't that enough? Why are we making him into a victim? He isn't...

In my subsequent post I talk about the other part of the equation where Sox management allowed Frank to be made into a whipping boy for the teams troubles and did nothing to stop it or promote him to the media when he is the most identifiable star they have on the team both locally and nationally.

I see you are still misquoting that Frank comment that the Moron used to justify your anti-Frank stance...

jabrch
10-10-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
In my subsequent post I talk about the other part of the equation where Sox management allowed Frank to be made into a whipping boy for the teams troubles and did nothing to stop it or promote him to the media when he is the most identifiable star they have on the team both locally and nationally.

I see you are still misquoting that Frank comment that the Moron used to justify your anti-Frank stance...

I don't have an anti-Frank stance. Read my post. I said Frank is one of the 2 best hitters we have and has been for 10+ years. I said he is a HOFer. Should I treat him the same way Flubs fans treat Sosa? No - Cuz I think that is stupid. I have no problem pointing to his weaknesses and wishing he'd be able to work at correcting them. Your "anti-Frank stance" sounds like the Cubs fans anytime someone has something negative to say about Sammy. I am not Anti-Frank. That's silly to even say. No Sox fan is ANTI Frank.

Also, I am not misquoting anything. Those are DIRECT quotes. And it may sound nice for you to blame Mariotti...BUT THIS CAME FROM THE MPLS Star Tribune. I cant find the Star-Trib article, but here is one frome Seattle... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2001749151_alnotes28.html that discusses it. The exact quote, however, from the Star-Tribune was, "I wouldn't say staying is a priority," Thomas said. ..." Voodoo, if you listen to that line, very very carefully, you would see that Frank doesn't have his heart set on staying. Hey, I hope he does. But why are you so dead set on trying to cannonize this guy?


For Frank, it's quite simple. If you want to be a Sox, take your option and stay. **** and go out there and work on taking ground balls. If you become a moderately serviceable defensive player, you will play. Learn to field bunts. Learn to make the 3-6-3. Learn to field a position and it would be much harder to criticise your defense. Get your average back up over .275. People won't criticise your average then. This is all very simple. It is not about being anti-Frank. It is about wanting more from him than he is giving us right now.

Nobody made Frank a WHIPPING BOY. Frank has been treated so well in this town. Frank is fairly criticised when he deserves it, but all athletes should be held to that same level of criticism. Do you want him to be Sosafied? Given passes for being a piece of crap? I don't think so.

voodoochile
10-10-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I don't have an anti-Frank stance. Read my post. I said Frank is one of the 2 best hitters we have and has been for 10+ years. I said he is a HOFer. Should I treat him the same way Flubs fans treat Sosa? No - Cuz I think that is stupid. I have no problem pointing to his weaknesses and wishing he'd be able to work at correcting them. Your "anti-Frank stance" sounds like the Cubs fans anytime someone has something negative to say about Sammy. I am not Anti-Frank. That's silly to even say. No Sox fan is ANTI Frank.

Also, I am not misquoting anything. Those are DIRECT quotes. And it may sound nice for you to blame Mariotti...BUT THIS CAME FROM THE MPLS Star Tribune. I cant find the Star-Trib article, but here is one frome Seattle... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2001749151_alnotes28.html that discusses it. The exact quote, however, from the Star-Tribune was, "I wouldn't say staying is a priority," Thomas said. ..." Voodoo, if you listen to that line, very very carefully, you would see that Frank doesn't have his heart set on staying. Hey, I hope he does. But why are you so dead set on trying to cannonize this guy?


For Frank, it's quite simple. If you want to be a Sox, take your option and stay. **** and go out there and work on taking ground balls. If you become a moderately serviceable defensive player, you will play. Learn to field bunts. Learn to make the 3-6-3. Learn to field a position and it would be much harder to criticise your defense. Get your average back up over .275. People won't criticise your average then. This is all very simple. It is not about being anti-Frank. It is about wanting more from him than he is giving us right now.

Nobody made Frank a WHIPPING BOY. Frank has been treated so well in this town. Frank is fairly criticised when he deserves it, but all athletes should be held to that same level of criticism. Do you want him to be Sosafied? Given passes for being a piece of crap? I don't think so.

You read that line and see "staying is not a priority" and translate it as "Frank wants to leave". I read that line and see the qualifier "I wouldn't say..." (staying is a priority) and see a negotiating stance. I translate it as, "You want me to say what? In the middle of a potential negotiation? Are you nuts?" Of course I am biased and tend to see things about Frank in a postive way.

My comments about Frank being a whipping boy include the following examples: Manuel constantly yanking Frank's chain about playing first and publicly castigating him every time something goes wrong. David Wells, Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee all ripping Frank in the press and no one stepping up to defend him. The complete lack of marketing around the most recognizable and longest standing member of the Sox team. Invoking the DSC at the first (realistic) moment they had a chance to. Complete silence about Frank's 400th HR and 2000th hit until the last minute and then only because they realized the fans cared (IMO). The way the team failed to get behind Frank during troubling times in his life and try to put out some postive press supporting him (divorce, Father's illness and subsequent passing, career threatening injury, other injuries, solid MLB seasons where the press ripped on Frank for having off years during the above situations even though his numbers were very solid by MLB standards if not Frank-like in nature). Failing to back Frank in 2002 when he was clearly not 100% healthy until the later stages of the season - thus condoning Konerko and Lee's comments.

I add all of that up and I see a pattern that says to me: The team doesn't care if Frank stays or goes and in reality would prefer he left. Compare it to the treatment Sham-ME* gets on the northside where there have been plenty of incidents which are bad for Corky's image that have been washed away leaving only the positive for the public to chew on. Frank's treatment is almost the exact opposite: problems are magnified and explanations are swept under the rug. Call it what you want to, but it looks damned suspicious to me...

gosox41
10-10-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well he was the one who invoked the diminished skills clause in the first place wasn't he?

But he renegotiated the contract. JR could have paid Frank $250K a year for the rest of the deal with a balloon payment at the end. If this happened, Frank probably would have left as he needed the cash. JR did the right thing.

Bob

BeerHandle
10-10-2003, 04:30 PM
I could care less about Thomas' contract.

What I do care about is his ability to help this team get back into the playoffs. I say you trade Kornerko so you free up money for Colon, play Thomas at first, sign Everett and have him DH, and have Rowand play center (since he went to the Bagwell stance he has been able to hit). With these simple moves and Cito coaching the team we shouldn't have any issues making the playoffs.

RKMeibalane
10-10-2003, 06:43 PM
Frank has until the end of the World Series to make a decision about his contract. Regardless of the decision he makes, I will continue to support him. The Big Hurt has had an outstanding career, and he deserves to win a WS. I would love to see him win a championship on the South Side, but if that can't happen, then I would like to see him finish his career with an organization that has a chance to contend.

Deadguy
10-10-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Looking back at that situation, I'm surprised nobody in the front office said something to Manuel about playing Frank more at first base. We already suspect/know that Manuel was in hot water with management because of his tinkering. I wonder why this never became an issue with Sox brass.

Perhaps Manuel's misuse of Frank was one of the many reasons why he was fired. Personally, I would have canned him for that mess, alone.

Perhaps management stayed out of it because they knew that if Frank put up monster numbers in 2003, he could easilly tear up the contract after the season, and get a big money contract elsewhere.

I think it's interesting reading USA Today's player notes on Thomas for 2003:

http://fantasybaseball.usatoday.com/index.php?sport=bsball&type=transandnotes&name=205

At first, Manuel seemed open to the idea of Thomas playing 1B:

May 28 Frank Thomas made his first start of the year at first base. Jerry Manuel indicated that Thomas would start at first base again on Thursday after watching him hit 1-for-2 with two walks and an RBI. "If it holds true that he hits better when he's playing first base, guess what? We need hitters," Manuel said. Thomas has a .336 BA when he plays first base compared to a .286 BA when he's a DH.

Then in late June, he had a minor ankle injury, and only played 1B one more time all season.

June 29 In a last-minute lineup change on Saturday, White Sox manager Jerry Manuel moved Frank Thomas from first base to DH because of a minor ankle injury, according to the Chicago Tribune.

Then in early August, Manuel makes it rather clear that Konerko's production is of more importance to the Sox:

Aug. 2 White Sox manager Jerry Manuel said he doesn't plan to move Frank Thomas from DH to first base to help Thomas break from a slump at the plate, because Paul Konerko has been hitting so well lately starting at first, according to the Daily Southtown.

It'll be interesting to see the way the new manager handles this situation. I just fear that the new manager will have no understanding of this situation, and will simply stick the better fielder at 1B (Konerko). The only clear resolution here is to dump Konerko on any team who is dumb enough to take him, but no team will want him.

Deadguy
10-10-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
He did, late in the season, say that "staying in Chicago is not a priority."

I don't know how you can interpret that as hinting he wants to stay. I'd bet he turns down the 6mm and tries to force our hand. I think it would be the end of his days in a Sox uni. I'd miss him, but it would be his own fault for not accepting the measly 6mm that he has due to him.

Those kind of statements are just made to get some leverage in contract negotions, or in this case, how the mutual options will play out.

The Tribune pretty much hinted that the Sox would not pick up Thomas' option at 8 million dollars. Whether they arrived at this implication from talking to Sox management directly, or if they are just making a guess, I don't know. But reading that, it would imply that the Sox don't want Thomas back.

All these comments really suggest is the obvious. Thomas would be happiest with an 8 million dollar salary next year, while the Sox would be happiest having Thomas back at 6 million dollars a year. Now it's just a case of seeing who will call who's bluff.

MRKARNO
10-10-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy

The Tribune pretty much hinted that the Sox would not pick up Thomas' option at 8 million dollars. Whether they arrived at this implication from talking to Sox management directly, or if they are just making a guess, I don't know. But reading that, it would imply that the Sox don't want Thomas back.


I'd be VERY surprised if the team doesnt pick up the option

RKMeibalane
10-10-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I'd be VERY surprised if the team doesnt pick up the option

I would be, as well. The Sox have several problems that must be addressed prior to the beginning of Spring Training: they have several holes to fill. But I do not believe that it is wise to try to fix one hole while creating another.

Say what you will about Frank Thomas, he is the most dangerous hitter in the White Sox lineup. One needs only to review the way Thomas was being pitched late in the season to understand that fact. Opposing managers were walking Frank because they were more willing to take their chances with Maggs. Nobody wanted to pitch to Frank, because they were too worried about what might happen.

Frank was not the problem this past season. If it had not been for his production during the summer months, I don't think the Sox would have gotten anywhere near first place, let alone hold onto a divisional lead. If Sox management honestly believes that severing ties with Thomas will improve the team, then so be it. They'll just have to get used to the idea of playing in front of Montreal-sized crowds every day.

RKMeibalane
10-10-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
It'll be interesting to see the way the new manager handles this situation. I just fear that the new manager will have no understanding of this situation, and will simply stick the better fielder at 1B (Konerko). The only clear resolution here is to dump Konerko on any team who is dumb enough to take him, but no team will want him.

I would hope that the new manager would at least take the time to review player statistics and tendencies. That's what I would do upon taking over a ballclub. It is the manager's responsibility to put the best team out on the field. Numbers don't tell the whole story with regards to putting together a good team, but they are a starting point. The new manager would be wise to take Frank's 1B/DH splits into account when deciding on a lineup.

RichH55
10-11-2003, 03:25 PM
The Armando Rios pinch hitting for Frank is a microcosm of the JM expierence regarding the Big Hurt.

The new manager can't handle things any worse unless he makes it a point to kick Frank's dog during Spring Training

RKMeibalane
10-11-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
The Armando Rios pinch hitting for Frank is a microcosm of the JM expierence regarding the Big Hurt.

The new manager can't handle things any worse unless he makes it a point to kick Frank's dog during Spring Training

The way things look now, if Frank has a huge season in 2004, Jerry Manuel is going to look like a complete idiot, because it will suddenly become to clear to everyone that Manuel was the reason for the drop in Frank's batting average. I can't wait until the whole world comes to realize the following:

****ing idiot ------------------------------------> :jerry

RichH55
10-11-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The way things look now, if Frank has a huge season in 2004, Jerry Manuel is going to look like a complete idiot, because it will suddenly become to clear to everyone that Manuel was the reason for the drop in Frank's batting average. I can't wait until the whole world comes to realize the following:

****ing idiot ------------------------------------> :jerry

I think that will be the least of JM's problems.

There is a school of thought that you need to push Frank's buttons to get him to be "right"./...but I definately think it got to a point where JM was just against Frank and the Rios example works to show that...

Not the best thing to cut off the nose in order to spite the face

vivavida
10-11-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
I say you trade Kornerko so you free up money for Colon, play Thomas at first, sign Everett and have him DH, and have Rowand play center (since he went to the Bagwell stance he has been able to hit). With these simple moves and Cito coaching the team we shouldn't have any issues making the playoffs. [/B]


I couldn't agree more. I couldn't understand why JM couldn't see the logic of those moves in August. And when I've said this since the end of the season, friends just ask, yeah, but who would take Konerko in a trade? (Dodgers?) And what would the Sox get for him?
Personally I don't care much at this point. At least it would free up some cash. And frankly, while I'd like to still like Paulie, his defense is hardly an improvement over Frank. He's gotten very, very slow in the field.

Daver
10-11-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by vivavida
I couldn't agree more. I couldn't understand why JM couldn't see the logic of those moves in August. And when I've said this since the end of the season, friends just ask, yeah, but who would take Konerko in a trade? (Dodgers?) And what would the Sox get for him?
Personally I don't care much at this point. At least it would free up some cash. And frankly, while I'd like to still like Paulie, his defense is hardly an improvement over Frank. He's gotten very, very slow in the field.

Hey welcome aboard! :redneck