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JDP
10-08-2003, 09:17 AM
The Good
1. FA signing of Loaiza
2. Trade for Bartolo Colon (Liefer, Biddle)
3. Mid-season trade of Carl Everett

The Bad
1. David Wells for Mike Sirotka fiasco
2. Scott Sullivan for MIF Tim Hummel
3. FA signing of Rick White
4. FA signing of Jose Paniagua

To Be Determined
1. Roberto Alomar for Edwin Almonte and Royce Ring
2. Schoeney for Gary Glover, etc.

I think one of the most overlooked moves by KW was when he picked up Scott Sullivan from the Reds. Sure, we got a solid bullpen arm (who appeared to be jelly at times late in the year for the Sox), but did KW have to give the Reds are only real high minor league MIF prospect? Also, whether we sign Robbie or not for 2004, I'm hoping that deal to the Mets doesn't come back to bite us, as Ring could develop into something good.

I don't know -- overall, is KW still doing a "great" job for the Sox or is he just "adequate"?

poorme
10-08-2003, 09:22 AM
how about kip wells and fogg for ritchie. that didn't work out too well.

KW hasn't been terrible, but certainly not great. and our minor league system is slowly slipping.

i would have never traded Ring for alomar. that one was a mistake.

JDP
10-08-2003, 09:24 AM
Yeah, good call on the Fogg/Wells for Ritchie deal. I forgot about that wound. Thanks for the salt. ; }

I think Ring and Hummel are going to come back and haunt KW.

hold2dibber
10-08-2003, 09:28 AM
You can't have a list of bad KW trades without including the Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch deals. And you can't have a list of good KW trades without including the Marte acquisition and the Tom Gordon signing (can you imagine how bad the bullpen would have been last year without those 2?).

In any event, I think KW has done a decent job, but that he is getting better as time goes forward. The fact is, no GM gets it right every time. The much-praised Billy Beane? He signed Terrence Long to a big money (for the A's) long term deal, gave up a lot for Euribiel Durazzo, who was not very good, and otherwise failed to put together an offense to support the great pitching he has. Brian Cashman traded for Jeff Weaver, signed Rondell White, etc. The point is, every GM makes some bad moves. But the job is to assemble enough talent to win. And KW surely did that last year. His biggest mistake was not canning Manuel in May.

This offseason will be, by far, his biggest test because of the payroll situation. He is going to have to be creative and smart.

JDP
10-08-2003, 09:31 AM
More moves I thus forgot to mention. My bad .. *sigh*

I think you are right that this offseason will be a huge offseason not only for us Sox fans, but for KW's job. How short do you think the leash is on KW?

soxtalker
10-08-2003, 09:41 AM
Other moves:
1) Koch and Cotts for Marc Johnson and Foulke
Probably bad -- very bad -- unless we see something next year.
2) Olivo for Chad Bradford
Difficult one to call. Bradford, who wasn't appreciated by Sox, has done well, and we needed a catcher.
3) Acquisition of Marte -- I forget who we sent to the Dodgers
Looks very good.

I wouldn't say that our farm system has slowly gone downhill. I think that KW essentially gutted it. Now, he may have done that, in part, because he placed a very different value on the people than RS. That will play out in future years, as the low-level minor leaguers progress.

As I've said many times before on this board, KW has been aggressive since the beginning. Most fans like that, but it is good only if the trades are good. Whether his judgment and negotiating skills have improved is something I'm not sure of. It would be interesting to assemble the entire list of trades and take a look over time. Just with this short list, I'm tempted to say that I don't really see a lot of change. I also don't know how to compare him to other GM's.

poorme
10-08-2003, 09:54 AM
marte came from the pirates for matt guerrier, i believe. he was a 20 game winner in the low minors, who's stuggled a bit at the higher levels. the pirates were supposedly going to release marte, i don't know if that's true. that's turned out to be a good deal, but i didn't like it at the time. he also gave away aaron myette, who was a first rounder. he went to texas for royce clayton. turns out myette sucks too. ginter, another first rounder, has never gotten a real opportunity. rauch turned it around in the second half last year in AAA. he was at least worthy of a sept. callup as a reliever. KW also gave away joe valentine, a closer prospect, in the koch deal.

soxtalker
10-08-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by poorme
marte came from the pirates for matt guerrier, i believe. he was a 20 game winner in the low minors, who's stuggled a bit at the higher levels. the pirates were supposedly going to release marte, i don't know if that's true. that's turned out to be a good deal, but i didn't like it at the time. he also gave away aaron myette, who was a first rounder. he went to texas for royce clayton. turns out myette sucks too. ginter, another first rounder, has never gotten a real opportunity. rauch turned it around in the second half last year in AAA. he was at least worthy of a sept. callup as a reliever. KW also gave away joe valentine, a closer prospect, in the koch deal.

Did we get Rauch in a trade, or did we draft him?

poorme
10-08-2003, 10:00 AM
draft. like 3rd round. supposedly he had a serious illness that hurt his draft status.

JRIG
10-08-2003, 10:15 AM
In addition to the original list:

Good:
Trade for Marte
Tom Gordon FA signing
Jose Canseco signing
Brian Daubach FA signing (would have been great move if Manuel used him properly)
Aquiring D'Angelo Jimenez for next to nothing

Bad:
Billy Koch/Keith Foulke deal
Wells/Fogg for Ritchie deal
Aquisition of Royce Clayton
Konerko's huge contract extension
Dumping Durham for nothing because he was afraid of not getting draft pick compensation
Dumping Jimenez for next to nothing
FA signing of Sandy Alomar (virtually no production -- just cost us more $$ than anyone else who could put up the same numbers)

poorme
10-08-2003, 10:18 AM
oh yeah. the first time we signed sandy alomar, it cost us a first round pick. that could be the dumbest thing he's ever done.

fledgedrallycap
10-08-2003, 10:34 AM
The whole deal with Kenny is he deals prospects - the key word being prospect. These players may or may not turn out to be anything - most likely nothing special. If that comes back to haunt him - who cares! He is aggressive and tries to win in the present instead of constantly building for the future. For a short while this year most Sox fans thought we had a real legitimate shot at winning a World Series, something we haven't been able to feel since '94. You can find the most winning GM in baseball history and find just as many mistakes, but the funny thing about KW is the initial reaction to 90% of his moves is positive. As the adage goes: Hindsight is 20/20.

voodoochile
10-08-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
The whole deal with Kenny is he deals prospects - the key word being prospect. These players may or may not turn out to be anything - most likely nothing special. If that comes back to haunt him - who cares! He is aggressive and tries to win in the present instead of constantly building for the future. For a short while this year most Sox fans thought we had a real legitimate shot at winning a World Series, something we haven't been able to feel since '94. You can find the most winning GM in baseball history and find just as many mistakes, but the funny thing about KW is the initial reaction to 90% of his moves is positive. As the adage goes: Hindsight is 20/20.

Thank you! You have to go for it sometime and unless you can draft nothing but studs who fly up through the minor league ranks and start producing in just a few years, you have to take some chances.

Can anyone point to a player that KW has traded away who has proven to be a great player? If anything the problem has been the financial constraints he has which forces him to let guys go after the single season he gets them for.

Personally, I want the Sox to start drafting tougher players and put more emphasis on the mental side of the game. Either that or they need to stop coddling guys in the minors because there are far too many guys who come to The Show and then seem to break down mentally the first time someone tags their pitch into the seats or makes them look like an idiot with a big breaking ball. Tools are a must, but if the guy isn't mentally tough, they might as well be a coach...

poorme
10-08-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
but the funny thing about KW is the initial reaction to 90% of his moves is positive. As the adage goes: Hindsight is 20/20.

90% of the people don't follow the minor leagues and have no clue as to what's going on.

voodoochile
10-08-2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by poorme
90% of the people don't follow the minor leagues and have no clue as to what's going on.

Yes, because minor league studs ALWAYS turn into Major League studs...

poorme
10-08-2003, 11:00 AM
no, but i can assure you that 95% of the ML all-stars were once top prospects.

voodoochile
10-08-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by poorme
no, but i can assure you that 95% of the ML all-stars were once top prospects.

Top what? Top 5? 10? 20? How many of those type players has KW traded away?

Also, while I accept your premise that most major leaguers at one time were rated highly in the minors, the reverse does not hold true. What percentage of highly touted minor leaguers turn out to be regular contributors in the majors? If the number is over 50% I admit I will be surprised.

poorme
10-08-2003, 11:17 AM
that's plenty of material for a whole different thread. BUT constantly trading your minor league talent for established players is not sustainable unless you're the NY Yankees. that is a fact.

it seems that so far, KW has really only been burned by the Ritchie trade. i suspect trading royce ring will be another.

i'm not ripping KW, i'm just saying he's not the greatest GM.

Lip Man 1
10-08-2003, 11:19 AM
A few years ago Baseball America had a story on minor league pitchers and looking at the numbers over the years stated that nine out of ten minor league pitchers never even spend a day in the major leagues.

I think we can risk those odds if it means winning a World Series some year.

Lip

voodoochile
10-08-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by poorme
that's plenty of material for a whole different thread. BUT constantly trading your minor league talent for established players is not sustainable unless you're the NY Yankees. that is a fact.

it seems that so far, KW has really only been burned by the Ritchie trade. i suspect trading royce ring will be another.

i'm not ripping KW, i'm just saying he's not the greatest GM.

Guys like Royce just aren't that valuable, IMO. There is almost always a failed starter who can be converted to setup/closer who will be just as effective. Minor league/college level closers just don't impress me.

Ritchie sucked for the Sox, but Wells and Fogg are average NL starters who haven't lived up to their early success with Pittsburgh. Time will tell if they will ever live up to their minor league hype, but right now, they would be at best the 5th starter on the Sox this last year and while the Sox could have used more production from that slot, it isn't a huge loss.

poorme
10-08-2003, 11:28 AM
wells had 197 IP and a 3.28 ERA this year.

the mets are converting ring into a starter.

JRIG
10-08-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Guys like Royce just aren't that valuable, IMO. There is almost always a failed starter who can be converted to setup/closer who will be just as effective. Minor league/college level closers just don't impress me.

Agreed here. If we assume KW is a very smart baseball man, there's a chance he drafted Ring only to turn him into something more valuable, i.e. a 2nd baseman in a pennant push.

Ritchie sucked for the Sox, but Wells and Fogg are average NL starters who haven't lived up to their early success with Pittsburgh.

Disagree here. Fogg took a step back, but Kipper was even better this year than in 2002. An ERA .5 lower, a lower WHIP, lower BA against (by 30 points), more Ks, and all in about the same number of innings pitched. HE would have looked great at the back end of our rotation.

hold2dibber
10-08-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Guys like Royce just aren't that valuable, IMO. There is almost always a failed starter who can be converted to setup/closer who will be just as effective. Minor league/college level closers just don't impress me.

Agreed.

Ritchie sucked for the Sox, but Wells and Fogg are average NL starters who haven't lived up to their early success with Pittsburgh. Time will tell if they will ever live up to their minor league hype, but right now, they would be at best the 5th starter on the Sox this last year and while the Sox could have used more production from that slot, it isn't a huge loss.

Disagreed, at least with respect to Wells. Kip Wells is an outstanding pitcher. He was better than Garland and Buehrle last year and was arguably better than Colon:

ERA:

Wells 3.28
Colon 3.87
Buehrle 4.14
Garland 4.51

WHIP:

Colon 1.20
Wells 1.25
Buehrle 1.35
Garland 1.37

BAA:

Wells .233
Colon .248
Garland .260
Buehrle .278

Even taking into the difference between pitching in the NL and in the AL, I think it is fair to say that Kip Wells is a damn good pitcher and was better than Buehrle, Garland, Wright, Cotts, and Stewart last year.

poorme
10-08-2003, 11:37 AM
well, if ring was such a POS, why did williams draft him in the first round?

fuzzy_patters
10-08-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by poorme
well, if ring was such a POS, why did williams draft him in the first round?

Easy, minor league relievers are cheap to sign.

Brian26
10-08-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
In addition to the original list:

Dumping Jimenez for next to nothing

FA signing of Sandy Alomar (virtually no production -- just cost us more $$ than anyone else who could put up the same numbers)


Which Sandy signing are you referring to? The first one or the second? His second stint with the Sox (2003) was terrific. He did exactly what he was expected to do, was a calming presence for the pitching staff, stayed injury-free, tutored Olivo, and had some big hits (anyone remember the KC game?)

KW rolled the dice on Jiminez when he picked him up last year. There were reports about his attitude and brains from SD and NY. He still took a gamble. Anyone who watched any games in the first half of the year knows the gamble didn't pay off. Third dump-off of Jiminez in the past 3 or 4 years, and what did you expect to get in return? He's a bum.

poorme
10-08-2003, 12:59 PM
jimenez had far better offensive numbers than alomar. not that either of them are any good.

GoSox2K3
10-08-2003, 01:22 PM
Can someone come up with a good summary of the people we have traded away in the last few years that have done well elsewhere? On the flip side, have we ever seen any benefits from the prospects we acquired in trades (i.e.; Baldwin trade, Durham trade, Alomar to Rockies trade, etc.)?

I'm not sure what to say about our farm system under KW. I wonder if it was all that it was ever cracked up to be. Most of our prospects never seem to turn into MLB stars. That may be just the impression I have. Can someone provide some input?

Thanks!

poorme
10-08-2003, 01:33 PM
the only decent prospect we ever picked up was olivo.

hold2dibber
10-08-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by poorme
the only decent prospect we ever picked up was olivo.

I'd say Cotts qualifies as a decent prospect. Also, didn't the Sox get a decent prospect in either the Lofton or S. Alomar trade in '02?

voodoochile
10-08-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by poorme
wells had 197 IP and a 3.28 ERA this year.


Damn... teach me not to check the stats before I make a post.

gosox41
10-08-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by JDP
The Good
1. FA signing of Loaiza
2. Trade for Bartolo Colon (Liefer, Biddle)
3. Mid-season trade of Carl Everett

The Bad
1. David Wells for Mike Sirotka fiasco
2. Scott Sullivan for MIF Tim Hummel
3. FA signing of Rick White
4. FA signing of Jose Paniagua

To Be Determined
1. Roberto Alomar for Edwin Almonte and Royce Ring
2. Schoeney for Gary Glover, etc.

I think one of the most overlooked moves by KW was when he picked up Scott Sullivan from the Reds. Sure, we got a solid bullpen arm (who appeared to be jelly at times late in the year for the Sox), but did KW have to give the Reds are only real high minor league MIF prospect? Also, whether we sign Robbie or not for 2004, I'm hoping that deal to the Mets doesn't come back to bite us, as Ring could develop into something good.

I don't know -- overall, is KW still doing a "great" job for the Sox or is he just "adequate"?

You missed a few bad moves:

1. Foulke for Koch.
2. Ritchie for Wells/Fogg
3. Durham for Adkins

Those 3 were hugely lopsided deals. Not to mention we should all give KW credit (and I use that term loosely) for extending PK, Koch's and JM's contract.

Next year the Sox are paying $15 mill. for garbage....money that would have been wise to tie up elsewhere.

Bob

bc2k
10-08-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by JDP


This is the most incomplete "detailing" of KW's moves I've ever seen. Not much time was put into this, right JDP?

soxtalker
10-08-2003, 03:09 PM
Has anyone mentioned the hiring of Jose Paniagua this year?

soxtalker
10-08-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
I'm not sure what to say about our farm system under KW. I wonder if it was all that it was ever cracked up to be. Most of our prospects never seem to turn into MLB stars. That may be just the impression I have. Can someone provide some input?

Thanks!

I've raised this issue a few times, though I don't recall anyone being able to answer.

I keep wondering if there isn't something seriously wrong about our entire farm system. We had a system that BA raved about only a few years ago mostly due to our young pitchers. Now, maybe it is true that overall many young pitchers don't pan out, but we had some of the best rated ones. Very few made it. There were a lot of injured arms.

Are there some examples of farm systems that we should emulate?

JDP
10-08-2003, 03:21 PM
This is the most incomplete "detailing" of KW's moves I've ever seen. Not much time was put into this, right JDP?

Awesome job in following the entire thread. I mentioned in replies afterwards that I had forgotten a lot of his moves, both good and bad.

bc2k
10-08-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by JDP
This is the most incomplete "detailing" of KW's moves I've ever seen. Not much time was put into this, right JDP?

Awesome job in following the entire thread. I mentioned in replies afterwards that I had forgotten a lot of his moves, both good and bad.

No, I read the entire thread. While reading, I saw some follow-up posts that had more informative substance than your original one.


And if you want to quote a post, click the quote button located at the bottom right of that person's post.

Hangar18
10-08-2003, 04:56 PM
the only thing BAD about the Wells/Sirotka deal was that WE DIDNT KEEP WELLS. WE COULDVE HAD HIM CHEAP, EAT UP INNINGS. Instead, he had a bad 1/2 season and we just let him go. Net Result of Trade .............ZILCH.

Ray Durham for Jon Adkins is really making me lose sleep these days. Funny, we need a SS/2B now, that can bat at top of
the order, has Speed, and some Power. We may END UP PAYING THE $$$$$$ We thought we were "Saving" by trading him.
A few less blown saves by Keith Foulke, and a healthy Ray Durham in our lineup all season, wouldve/couldve been enough to keep us afloat, and into the Postseason.
Ive seen enough of Jon Adkins to know Billy Beanes Laughing
at us.......... Again.

Hangar18
10-08-2003, 04:58 PM
All in all, Kenny Williams has made about 7 bad trades/signings that have HURT us.

Were forgetting this, because he had a nice little run lately with
the other "deals".

MarkEdward
10-08-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'd say Cotts qualifies as a decent prospect. Also, didn't the Sox get a decent prospect in either the Lofton or S. Alomar trade in '02?

I think you may be talking about Pacheco and Diaz. They're both decent and may be become good rotation fillers, but they're nothing special.

DrCrawdad
10-08-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by poorme
marte came from the pirates for matt guerrier, i believe. he was a 20 game winner in the low minors, who's stuggled a bit at the higher levels. the pirates were supposedly going to release marte, i don't know if that's true. that's turned out to be a good deal, but i didn't like it at the time. he also gave away aaron myette, who was a first rounder. he went to texas for royce clayton. turns out myette sucks too. ginter, another first rounder, has never gotten a real opportunity. rauch turned it around in the second half last year in AAA. he was at least worthy of a sept. callup as a reliever. KW also gave away joe valentine, a closer prospect, in the koch deal.

An Aaron Myette fan! Aaron couldn't make it with the Texas Rangers nor the Cleveland Indians.

Guerrier wasn't even called up by the lowly Pirates. Ditto for Joe Valentine with the Reds (Oakland traded away closer of the future Joe Valentine to the Reds. Joe had a cuppa Joe with the Reds and was summarily sent back to AAA.)

DrCrawdad
10-08-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by JDP
The Bad
1. David Wells for Mike Sirotka fiasco
2. Scott Sullivan for MIF Tim Hummel


I disagree with both of these. The Wells/Sirotka deal was NOT bad.

Are we really morning the loss of Tim Hummel?

Daver
10-08-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad


Are we really morning the loss of Tim Hummel?


Well,we do need a replacement for Tony Graffinino eventually..........

DrCrawdad
10-08-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Well,we do need a replacement for Tony Graffinino eventually..........

I wish Hummel all the success in the world. However, from what I've seen in Hummel's brief MLB career, I'm not impressed.

poorme
10-08-2003, 05:55 PM
the sox don't have any more minor league talent to trade, so it will be interesting to see what KW does now. well, he could trade jeremy reed. he wouldn't do that, would he? or would he?

OEO Magglio
10-08-2003, 06:29 PM
the sox don't have any more minor league talent to trade, so it will be interesting to see what KW does now. well, he could trade jeremy reed. he wouldn't do that, would he? or would he?
No he wouldn't heres the thing, he had guys when he was making all of these trades that were untouchable, guys that actually might be able to turn into good players, Royce Ring is nothing, same with Hummel, we have a lot of depth where we traded webster, and rupe is still in the lower minors so who knows what he's going to do, but KW has made good trades during the season, he tried getting the sox to a world series if that means giving up some mid level prospects so be it, Kenny did what he had to, the rest of the team didn't.

gosox41
10-08-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I've raised this issue a few times, though I don't recall anyone being able to answer.

I keep wondering if there isn't something seriously wrong about our entire farm system. We had a system that BA raved about only a few years ago mostly due to our young pitchers. Now, maybe it is true that overall many young pitchers don't pan out, but we had some of the best rated ones. Very few made it. There were a lot of injured arms.

Are there some examples of farm systems that we should emulate?

Oakland and the Cubs come to mind.

Oakland drafted and developed Zito, Hudson and Mulder i nthe pitching department. All 3 would be aces on the Sox. Not to mention drafting guys like Giambi, Tejada, and Chavez to name a few.

I hate to mention the Cubs, but look at ability to draft. Kerry Wood, Prior, and Zambrano all had great years. Obviously Prior is the best of the bunch. And I love Juan Cruz's arm. He's goa high ceiling. They seem to have a bunch of guys in the minors that are also good pitchers.

The Cubs haven't done as well from the offensive side, but look at all the great pitching the Sox have brought to the majors on their team since rebuilding in 1997.....Buehrle. He's the only homegrown guy who has had significant success in a Sox uniform. Maybe Garland, but he was drafted by the Cubs. Wood, Prior, and Zambrano will have (or have had) much greater success in the majors in their first 3 ears then JG. The Sox were quick to dump Wells for nothing. But what about all these other great arms we heard about 3 years ago. They pan out in Oakland and for the Cubs. The Cubs even have had success developing power pitchers. All 4 guys menitoned above can consistently bring it at 95 MPH.

Bob

DrCrawdad
10-08-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
...Wood, Prior, and Zambrano will have (or have had) much greater success in the majors in their first 3 ears then JG...The Cubs even have had success developing power pitchers. All 4 guys menitoned above can consistently bring it at 95 MPH.

Bob

The Cubbies deserve a measure of credit but let's not go overboard. The Cubbie hardly "developed" Prior. Prior was dropped virtually ready to go into their laps, a gift from the Twins who passed on Prior.

And as was mentioned by Phil Rogers, the Cubbies have had the benefit of numerous top ten draft picks over the last 8-10 years. IIRC the Sox have had no top ten draft picks in that period.

fuzzy_patters
10-08-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Oakland and the Cubs come to mind.

Oakland drafted and developed Zito, Hudson and Mulder i nthe pitching department. All 3 would be aces on the Sox. Not to mention drafting guys like Giambi, Tejada, and Chavez to name a few.

I hate to mention the Cubs, but look at ability to draft. Kerry Wood, Prior, and Zambrano all had great years. Obviously Prior is the best of the bunch. And I love Juan Cruz's arm. He's goa high ceiling. They seem to have a bunch of guys in the minors that are also good pitchers.

The Cubs haven't done as well from the offensive side, but look at all the great pitching the Sox have brought to the majors on their team since rebuilding in 1997.....Buehrle. He's the only homegrown guy who has had significant success in a Sox uniform. Maybe Garland, but he was drafted by the Cubs. Wood, Prior, and Zambrano will have (or have had) much greater success in the majors in their first 3 ears then JG. The Sox were quick to dump Wells for nothing. But what about all these other great arms we heard about 3 years ago. They pan out in Oakland and for the Cubs. The Cubs even have had success developing power pitchers. All 4 guys menitoned above can consistently bring it at 95 MPH.

Bob

Zambrano is not an example of the Cubs ability to draft. Foreign players are not subjected to the draft. Zambrano is an example of both the Cubs ability to scout foreign players as well as an example of their ability to outbid poorer franchises.

ode to veeck
10-08-2003, 11:04 PM
I think we've missed the number one bad KW move so far

:thechoice

"Hey did you guys forget about me!??!

Lip Man 1
10-08-2003, 11:07 PM
I'd say Houston and Seattle have also had far more success developing "can't miss kid" pitchers then the Sox.

Lip

Hangar18
10-09-2003, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Oakland and the Cubs come to mind.

I hate to mention the Cubs, but look at ability to draft. Kerry Wood, Prior, and Zambrano all had great years. Obviously Prior is the best of the bunch. And I love Juan Cruz's arm. He's goa high ceiling. They seem to have a bunch of guys in the minors that are also good pitchers.

Bob

The Messiah Prior Doesnt Count. He shouldve been a TWIN had Bud Selig not let his "friendship" with Twins Owner Pohlad become a CONFLICT OF INTEREST and tipped him they would be FOLDED/CONTRACTED. Zambrano I believe is a Foreign Player,
who wasnt really Drafted, but was given a Box of Food, A Color TV, and CASH in a paper bag to sign with the team, A TACTIC the cubs have become quite well at doing. Teams prey upon Poor Countries' Players and sign them to "professional" contracts, knowing the players have VIRTUALLY NO LEVERAGE. Kind of "SIGN THIS OR YOUR FAMILY DOESNT EAT" kind of deal.
So In a nutshell, the Cubs really HAVNT been able to "DRAFT" in the true sense of the word. The cubs staff Consists of a Home Grown Player, A Player "given" to them due to a Conflict of Interest, Another who Signed because the Family was Hungry,
Another who was a "throw in" because of Salary.

poorme
10-09-2003, 08:00 AM
that's just sour grapes. i don't care if the sox have to kidnap 6 year old kids and smuggle them into the country. just develop some talent!

Hangar18
10-09-2003, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by poorme
that's just sour grapes. i don't care if the sox have to kidnap 6 year old kids and smuggle them into the country. just develop some talent!

I think the SOX have finally figured this system out too, but only recently. The scouts teams send down there, to impoverished
countries, are nothing more than PIMPS

poorme
10-09-2003, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I think the SOX have finally figured this system out too, but only recently.

good. i await the influx of talent.

gosox41
10-09-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Zambrano is not an example of the Cubs ability to draft. Foreign players are not subjected to the draft. Zambrano is an example of both the Cubs ability to scout foreign players as well as an example of their ability to outbid poorer franchises.

Did they outbid the Sox for him? The Cubs still discovered his talent and developed him. He's only about 21 and look at all the success he's having already. If he stays healthy, he can be a very good pitcher.

Bob

RichH55
10-09-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Did they outbid the Sox for him? The Cubs still discovered his talent and developed him. He's only about 21 and look at all the success he's having already. If he stays healthy, he can be a very good pitcher.

Bob

Of all the Cubs pitchers I think Zambrano is the most likely to be hurt next year

DrCrawdad
10-09-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Did they outbid the Sox for him? The Cubs still discovered his talent and developed him. He's only about 21 and look at all the success he's having already. If he stays healthy, he can be a very good pitcher.

Bob

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/chc/photo/ph_play_mugshot_407296.jpg

Zambrano's listed at 22 years old. I'm a bit skeptical of his listed age though. From what I've read, there has been some question about Zambrano and Cruz' ages.