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hold2dibber
10-08-2003, 08:19 AM
In my determined quest to ignore all things Cubs, I have spent my free time the last few days playing like I was Kenny Williams. I’ve come up with a couple plans for re-making the Sox roster on a limited budget. The one I have outlined below would make the team damn good (on paper) for about $67 million in payroll. Here’s how it would work:

1. Re-sign Colon for 4 years/$48 million, with $11 million salary for ’04.
2. Trade Lee, Rowand and Schoenweiss for Hideo Nomo and Guillermo Mota
3. Sign Maggs to an extension, but get him to agree to defer $4 mm in ’04 salary.
4. Trade Konerko for a bucket of balls (i.e., a level B prospect, anyone who would be paid the MLB minimum if he made the Sox) and agree to pay $2 million of his salary in each ’04 and ’05 to make it happen.
5. Re-sign Everett for 2 years, $10 mm, with $4 million salary for ’04.
7. Re-sign Valentin for 2 years, $4 mm, with $2 million salary for ‘04
8. Re-sign Robbie Alomar for 2 years, $5 mm, with $2 mm salary for ‘04
9. Trade Cotts and Harris to Milwaukee for Scott Podsednik
10. Sign Daubach ($500,000); Todd Hollandsworth ($750,000); Doug Glanville ($500,000); Sandy Alomar ($500,000) and Graffinino ($750,000).
11. Sign Buehrle to a 3 year, $14 million deal, with $3 million in salary in ’04 ($5 million in ’05, $6 million in ’06)
13. Sign Garland to a 3 year, $7 million deal, with $1.5 million in salary in ‘04

With respect to the trades, the Dodgers have a surplus of pitching but desperately need some offensive punch, particularly in the OF. Lee and Rowand would both be opening day starters for them. Nomo is in the last year of his contract and even with his departure, the Dodgers would have a rotation of Brown, Ishii, Driefort, Odalis Perez and Schoenweiss. As to the Milwaukee trade, the Brewers are, at best, 2 or 3 years from competing. Podsednik, while only a rookie last year, is 27 years old. I would think they’d be willing to deal him while his value is high for a high-ceiling pitching prospect (Cotts), with Harris as a possible replacement for Podsednik. Dealing PK will, of course, be difficult. But I think there are teams out there (Baltimore? Arizona? LA? Anaheim?) who would be willing to take a flier on him in light of the fact that there is a good chance, IMHO, that he will return to his pre-2003 form (i.e., .285 BA, 27 hrs, 90 RBIs, .825 OPS).

This would be the roster:

LINE-UP:

Podsednik CF ($350,000)
R. Alomar 2B ($2 million)
Thomas 1B ($6 million)
Ordonez RF ($10 million)
Everett LF ($4 million)
Crede 3B ($350,000)
Daubach DH ($500,000)
Valentin SS ($2 million)
Olivo C ($350,000)

COST OF LINE-UP: $25,850,000

Comments: Line-up has speed and power, as well as left/right balance. Would be placing a lot of faith in Podsednik to repeat his '03 performance, which is not a sure thing.

ROTATION:

Colon ($11 million)
Buehrle ($3 million)
Nomo ($8 million)
Loaiza ($3.5 million)
Garland ($1.5 million)

COST OF ROTATION: $27 million

Comments: Very possibly the best rotation in baseball, and one that would be very tough to beat in the post season.

BULLPEN:

Wunsch ($750,000)
Koch ($6.5 million)
Marte ($500,000)
Ginter ($350,000)
Mota ($1 million)
Wright ($350,000)

COST OF BULLPEN: $9.5 million

Comments: Mota and Marte would form a lethal left/right punch to finish games. But the key would be Koch becoming at least serviceable.

BENCH:

S. Alomar ($500,000)
Graffinino ($750,000)
Glanville ($500,000)
Hollandsworth ($750,000)
Miles ($350,000)

COST OF BENCH: $2.85 million

Portion of Konerko’s salary: $2 million

TOTAL PAYROLL: $67.2 million

Lip Man 1
10-08-2003, 11:42 AM
Your proposals unfortunately are "only" seven to ten million dollars more then Kenny Williams has already hinted at where the payroll is going to be.

Thank you for playing! We've got some lovely parting gifts for our contestent.

Lip

hold2dibber
10-08-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Your proposals unfortunately are "only" seven to ten million dollars more then Kenny Williams has already hinted at where the payroll is going to be.

Thank you for playing! We've got some lovely parting gifts for our contestent.

Lip

I know it - but I'm hoping that JR will come to his senses and realize that he has to spend a little more, particularly in light of the splash the Cubs are making.

longshot7
10-08-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
2. Trade Lee, Rowand and Schoenweiss for Hideo Nomo and Guillermo Mota

and this would help us how?


9. Trade Cotts and Harris to Milwaukee for Scott Podsednik


Yeah, I think Milwaukee definitely wants to trade their rookie of the year.

Nice try, but lay off the Kool-Aid.

joecrede
10-08-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Your proposals unfortunately are "only" seven to ten million dollars more then Kenny Williams has already hinted at where the payroll is going to be.

Thank you for playing! We've got some lovely parting gifts for our contestent.

Lip

What would you do Lip to improve the Sox if you had the Cubs payroll of $90M?

hold2dibber
10-08-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
and this would help us how?

Are you serious?

Nomo in '03: 3.09 ERA, 218 IP, 177 Ks, 175 Hs, 1.25 WHIP, .223 BAA. And those numbers were about the same in '02 (3.39 ERA, 220 IP, 193 Ks, 189 Hs, .236 BAA). And lest you think that his numbers are the result of pitching in the Dodgers spacious home park, his '03 numbers were significantly better on the road (2.69 ERA, 107 IPs, 83 Ks, 74 Hs, .198 BAA).

Mota in '03: 1.97 ERA (!), 105 IPs, 99 Ks, 78 Hs, 0.99 WHIP, .206 BAA.

Those guys are both damn good pitchers. I for one am not going to count on Loaiza repeating his '03 performance next year. But in any event, acquiring him would arguably give the Sox the best rotation in baseball. And that rotation would be very, very hard to beat in a short playoff series.

And Mota was dominating last year, too. With Gordon likely leaving town, another good arm in the pen is a must. Mota fits the bill perfectly.

Why do you think otherwise? To me, there's no question at all, that the trade I proposed would be a good one for the Sox. The bigger question is whether the Dodgers would go for it. The Sox might have to sweeten the deal a bit to get it done.


Yeah, I think Milwaukee definitely wants to trade their rookie of the year.

Like any other team, Milwaukee will trade just about anybody if the price is right. As I noted, Podsednik came from out of nowhere last year, and he's 27 years old. There is certainly reason to believe that he may be a flash in the pan. And even if he remains good, the Brewers are still several years away from being anything other than doormats - it seems to me that they might be willing to cash in on Podsednik's good year by getting younger players. Does this not make sense? If not, why not? And if you don't think Cotts/Harris would be enough, what do you think it would take to pry him away?

poorme
10-08-2003, 03:37 PM
you'd have to overpay for podsednik. he is the brewers poster child now. they had podsednik day at miller park the last day of the year.

hold2dibber
10-08-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by poorme
you'd have to overpay for podsednik. he is the brewers poster child now. they had podsednik day at miller park the last day of the year.

Good point - did not know he was so popular up there. I don't know that I'd want to overpay for him - as I noted above, I do have some concerns that he will be unable to replicate his '03 performance. Anybody else have any ideas for a low cost CF who is good defensively and gets on base at a decent clip who the Sox might be able to land via trade (or otherwise)?

longshot7
10-08-2003, 04:22 PM
You forget that I'm a Dodgers fan, and I've seen both those guys the last two years. True, Nomo is better than he was a few years ago, and Mota's numbers look good, but I don't think you trade (arguably) your best hitter unless you're getting super quality in return (a la solid #1.) I just don't think that this is that deal. We can trade less to get quality - they're dying to get rid of payroll - maybe Kevin Brown is available if we want to assume his salary. Or we might be able to get Hideo for a lower price.

btw, Mota's a piece-of-crap. He's the guy who hit Piazza in Spring Training to retaliate for something the season before and then when Mike charged the mound, he FLED not only the field and clubhouse, he immediately jumped into his car and drove away. idiot.

MRKARNO
10-08-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
You forget that I'm a Dodgers fan, and I've seen both those guys the last two years. True, Nomo is better than he was a few years ago, and Mota's numbers look good, but I don't think you trade (arguably) your best hitter unless you're getting super quality in return (a la solid #1.) I just don't think that this is that deal. We can trade less to get quality - they're dying to get rid of payroll - maybe Kevin Brown is available if we want to assume his salary. Or we might be able to get Hideo for a lower price.

btw, Mota's a piece-of-crap. He's the guy who hit Piazza in Spring Training to retaliate for something the season before and then when Mike charged the mound, he FLED not only the field and clubhouse, he immediately jumped into his car and drove away. idiot.

It has been said here many a time that the hitter in the white sox no. 2 hole is by default overrated due to the fact that THomas is no. 3. I think Lee is a great hitter, but Mike Caruso hit like .300 from the 3 hole. but so far this postseason has proven that pitching is what gets you places in october. Nomo is definitely great and mota could set up for marte. Would the dodgers do it? Iffy, but I hope they would.

And the White Sox will never pay 15 mil a year for kevin brown unless the dodgers payed half of it. Never.

Lip Man 1
10-08-2003, 05:51 PM
Joe Crede:

I'm not trying to be rude but going through all the free agent lists (printed this week in The Sporting News) and coming up with mythical proposals just isn't worth the time and effort.

If the Sox actually had a chance to have a payroll that hight sire I'd do it. But we'll be lucky if they have a 60 million dollar payroll.

Lip

duke of dorwood
10-08-2003, 06:08 PM
I think the Loiaza success will result in more moves like that=looking for cheap lightning in the bottle. The higher ups will recommend this route as Plan A.

ma-gaga
10-08-2003, 11:45 PM
Is it really likely that Carlos Lee gets traded?

If you traded Lee to Milwaukee they MIGHT give you Podsednick, but there'd probably have to be significant cash involved to balance out the next couple of years differences in salaries.

Every team is trying to do what you did, Hold2dibbler. Reduce payroll and increase talent. Rookie of the year candidates don't get traded during the offseason. Might as well ask for B.Webb from Arizona.

:)

RichH55
10-09-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
Is it really likely that Carlos Lee gets traded?

If you traded Lee to Milwaukee they MIGHT give you Podsednick, but there'd probably have to be significant cash involved to balance out the next couple of years differences in salaries.

Every team is trying to do what you did, Hold2dibbler. Reduce payroll and increase talent. Rookie of the year candidates don't get traded during the offseason. Might as well ask for B.Webb from Arizona.

:)

Carlos for Podsednick and we give up cash? Just put the gun to my temple now

I think there is about a 50/50 chance Carlos is dealt, especially depending on the arbitrators ruling...but if he is moved ...I would think it for pitching...and would watch Reed

jeremyb1
10-09-2003, 11:48 AM
I like a lot of the proposal. I like the deal with the Dodgers or at least what we get in return and the majority of what we give up. Trading Carlos should allow us good value if we need to deal a player and I really like the idea of acquiring a dominant reliever like Mota. The biggest problems I have are with CF and the deferments. Like others have said, Podsednik is most likely overvalued at this point and like you mentioned he very may well be a flash in the pan akin to Singleton after his rookie year. Personally, I think we might be better off just going with Rowand. As far as deferring the money, I'm not sure that's a solution because we'll still have to pay down the line. Creating so many deals with a lot of money on the end of the contract is what has us in this payroll situation as it is. Also, there's no guarantee someone like Maggs will turn down money he's already been guaranteed for next season.

poorme
10-09-2003, 11:52 AM
we'd probably get the wrong Nomo.

RichH55
10-09-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I like a lot of the proposal. I like the deal with the Dodgers or at least what we get in return and the majority of what we give up. Trading Carlos should allow us good value if we need to deal a player and I really like the idea of acquiring a dominant reliever like Mota. The biggest problems I have are with CF and the deferments. Like others have said, Podsednik is most likely overvalued at this point and like you mentioned he very may well be a flash in the pan akin to Singleton after his rookie year. Personally, I think we might be better off just going with Rowand. As far as deferring the money, I'm not sure that's a solution because we'll still have to pay down the line. Creating so many deals with a lot of money on the end of the contract is what has us in this payroll situation as it is. Also, there's no guarantee someone like Maggs will turn down money he's already been guaranteed for next season.

Akin to Singleton....thats pushing it quite a bit.....Of course I might still be thinking Fantasy Baseball too much....

hold2dibber
10-09-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I like a lot of the proposal. I like the deal with the Dodgers or at least what we get in return and the majority of what we give up. Trading Carlos should allow us good value if we need to deal a player and I really like the idea of acquiring a dominant reliever like Mota. The biggest problems I have are with CF and the deferments. Like others have said, Podsednik is most likely overvalued at this point and like you mentioned he very may well be a flash in the pan akin to Singleton after his rookie year. Personally, I think we might be better off just going with Rowand. As far as deferring the money, I'm not sure that's a solution because we'll still have to pay down the line. Creating so many deals with a lot of money on the end of the contract is what has us in this payroll situation as it is. Also, there's no guarantee someone like Maggs will turn down money he's already been guaranteed for next season.

(1) I agree with everything you said about Podsednik. And I do think that given the starting job, Rowand would likely be okay(i.e., .265 avg, 15 HRs, 65 RBIs, .750-ish OPS). The problem is the lead off position. I suppose they could use R. Alomar there, but I don't want to count on him being productive offensively next year. They need to find a lead-off hitter at SS, 2B or CF. And it has to be someone relatively cheap. The options are few and far between. Is there any reason to think that the Braves might deal Furcal? Don't they have a hot shot SS prospect (Benemit or something like that)? With Sheffield a FA, I wonder if they'd consider a deal featuring Furcal for C Lee? Probably a pipedream.

(2) As to the deferred money, I hear you, but the reality of the situation is that the AL Central is weak - and getting weaker. The Twins are likely to lose several key players this off season, including Guardado, Hawkins and Stewart. The Indians are still at least a few years away from being good, the Tigers are a joke, and the Royals, IMHO, played over their heads last year. The division is going to be there for the taking again. So if it takes defering some money or back loading some contracts (to some extent - I don't think I proposed anything as dramatic as Maggs' current baloon payment) to give the team the chance to contend in '04, than so be it.

jeremyb1
10-10-2003, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
(1) I agree with everything you said about Podsednik. And I do think that given the starting job, Rowand would likely be okay(i.e., .265 avg, 15 HRs, 65 RBIs, .750-ish OPS). The problem is the lead off position. I suppose they could use R. Alomar there, but I don't want to count on him being productive offensively next year. They need to find a lead-off hitter at SS, 2B or CF. And it has to be someone relatively cheap. The options are few and far between. Is there any reason to think that the Braves might deal Furcal? Don't they have a hot shot SS prospect (Benemit or something like that)? With Sheffield a FA, I wonder if they'd consider a deal featuring Furcal for C Lee? Probably a pipedream.

Yeah, my preference would be to find a leadoff hitter outside the organization. However, without a lot of money to spend I wonder how good our options are. Its probably too much too soon but I'd be really curious to see how Reed would do there. He clearly has outstanding on base skills and I personally I'd guess he's probably the best lead off candidate in the organization right now. That doesn't mean he's a great option but I'm not sure its completely out of the realm of possibilities for him to succeed there. The problem is if we're trying to contend next season, that's tough to do with a young guy hitting leadoff.

StillMissOzzie
10-10-2003, 01:38 AM
hold2dibber,
About your plans for Buehrle - didn't he already turn down a better offer than your figures? I recall that he's committed himself to taking arbitration money for the next three years rather than lock himself into a deal that encroaches on even ONE year of FA.

As for Everett, do you really think he'd accept that much of a pay cut to stay here? I recall he's currently in the $9M neighborhood. No idea if he'll get that much from anyone, but your figs are sure a steep drop.

SMO
:gulp:

hold2dibber
10-10-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
hold2dibber,
About your plans for Buehrle - didn't he already turn down a better offer than your figures? I recall that he's committed himself to taking arbitration money for the next three years rather than lock himself into a deal that encroaches on even ONE year of FA.

I don't think I ever knew the exact numbers the Sox offered or that he turned town. I remembered them to be a little less than what I suggested in my proposal. My thinking was that after the "worst" year of his career in '03, he might re-think things a little and realize that the security of a multi-year contract is the way to go. Also, I don't think that he has ever said he prefers arbitration - just that he is willing to go to arbitration if he doesn't get a deal he thinks is adequate. I think his desire to go to St. L is completely overblown. If the Sox make a contract offer he thinks is a good one, he'll forego some FA years, there's no question in my mind.

As for Everett, do you really think he'd accept that much of a pay cut to stay here? I recall he's currently in the $9M neighborhood. No idea if he'll get that much from anyone, but your figs are sure a steep drop.

I feel pretty confident that Everett is going to see a big pay cut. He's still good, don't get me wrong, but he is by no means a superstar and he's getting up there in years. I think he'll end up with a 2 or 3 year contract somewhere with an average salary of about $6 million.

jabrch
10-10-2003, 01:39 PM
We spent 51 this year. 67 is just not likely to happen.