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Clarkdog
10-07-2003, 05:27 PM
Kazuo Matsui Update:

Lions ask Matsui to stay next year (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getsp.pl5?sb20031007a3.htm)

Doesn't mean he will...they're just asking.

Also, I looked at all the teams expressing a need (or interest in Matsui) and how deep the interest is....

Mets: With Reyes at SS, Matsui would be 2B. Matsui has stated he wishes to play SS if signed by an MLB team

Dodgers: Dodgers appear to have money, but Dan Evans overextended payroll in 2003 with poor results. Whether the purse strings open wide is in question. Tracy likes Izturis at SS. Matsui may play 2B. Matsui has stated he wishes to play SS if signed by an MLB team.

Angels: New ownership has committed addition $10M in payroll for 2004 (~$90M), despite losing $10M in 2003. See that JR! Feels team did not get opportunity to defend 2002 title due to injuries. Wouldn't new ownership like this be a breath of fresh air? Looking to go after big ticket free agent. GM Stoneman looking at starting pitching first before a Tejada, Vlad, or Matsui. Matsui could play SS, with Eckstein moving to 2B

Mariners: SS Carlos Guillen is arbitration eligable expecting about a $4.5M payday. Owner has said he wishes Mariners to be Japan's team. Matsui is a natural leadoff hitter. He would not hit first in Seattle (Ichiro) right now.

Yankees: With Jeter at SS, Matsui would be 2B. What to do with Soriano? Matsui has stated he wishes to play SS if signed by an MLB team.

Red Sox: With Nomar at SS, Matsui would be 2B. Matsui has stated he wishes to play SS if signed by an MLB team.

Padres: Reports I have seen (and that have been reported as confirmed - although I can find no evidence of this) say the Pads are sticking with rookie Kahlil Greene at SS, a will be spending in other areas (pitching)

D-Backs: They are reported as interested, though there is not a lot there. Colangelo may be looking to shed some payroll.

A's: AAA Bobby Crosby is slated to be the starting SS for the 2004 A's.

Cubs: Alex Gonzales is under contract to the tune of $4.5M in 2004. He could move to 2B to accomodate Matsui. But with arbitation or options due to quite of few on the current roster (Wood, Clement, Farnsworth, et al) rumblings on Cubs interest in him is at D-Back levels.

Braves: With Furcal at SS, Matsui would be 2B. What to do with Giles? Matsui has stated he wishes to play SS if signed by an MLB team.

White Sox: They have the position open, they have the leadoff spot open. They should have the money.

The White Sox could be a player in obtaining Matsui from the above I see only the Dodgers, Angels, Mariners and maybe the Padres as serious bidders. And each has an individual issue with position players or payroll allocation that would need to be addressed. The White Sox only issue is if they have the stones go after him. :(:

MRKARNO
10-07-2003, 05:29 PM
just a correction the Guillen in Seattle is Carlos Guillen. Jose Guillen is the A's outfielder.

Clarkdog
10-07-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
just a correction the Guillen in Seattle is Carlos Guillen. Jose Guillen is the A's outfielder.

My bad. Made the correction. Thanks! :cool:

soxtalker
10-07-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
Kazuo Matsui Update:

Lions ask Matsui to stay next year (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getsp.pl5?sb20031007a3.htm)

Doesn't mean he will...they're just asking.

Also, I looked at all the teams expressing a need (or interest in Matsui) and how deep the interest is....

Mariners: SS Carlos Guillen is arbitration eligable expecting about a $4.5M payday. Owner has said he wishes Mariners to be Japan's team. Matsui is a natural leadoff hitter. He would not hit first in Seattle (Ichiro) right now.

[White Sox: They have the position open, they have the leadoff spot open. They should have the money.

The White Sox could be a player in obtaining Matsui from the above I see only the Dodgers, Angels, Mariners and maybe the Padres as serious bidders. And each has an individual issue with position players or payroll allocation that would need to be addressed. The White Sox only issue is if they have the stones go after him. :(:

Looking at your analysis, it would seem that Seattle might be the logical choice. If that happens, would Guillen be worth pursuing? Numbers aren't great, but aren't bad.

Clarkdog
10-07-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Looking at your analysis, it would seem that Seattle might be the logical choice. If that happens, would Guillen be worth pursuing? Numbers aren't great, but aren't bad.

I think you could land Matsui for a salary just above Guillen's. What Matsui gives you is a leadoff hitter and shortstop. Guillen is not a leadoff hitter. I think the one of the bigger holes the Sox had with that power oriented offense was a true table setter. Jimenez/Alomar were a weak substitute. Look at the impact a good one-two punch like Pierre and Castillo in Florida can do. That plus Matsui is (and I know Hangar will agree here) MARKETABLE. He is an exciting ballplayer, and he will get local and national media attentiuon. He is worth the investment.

One thing to note about that list of potentials - of the teams that I think have the best shot of landing him - the White Sox are the only team not on the Pacific Coast

soxtalker
10-07-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
I think you could land Matsui for a salary just above Guillen's. What Matsui gives you is a leadoff hitter and shortstop. Guillen is not a leadoff hitter. I think the one of the bigger holes the Sox had with that power oriented offense was a true table setter. Jimenez/Alomar were a weak substitute. Look at the impact a good one-two punch like Pierre and Castillo in Florida can do. That plus Matsui is (and I know Hangar will agree here) MARKETABLE. He is an exciting ballplayer, and he will get local and national media attentiuon. He is worth the investment.

One thing to note about that list of potentials - of the teams that I think have the best shot of landing him - the White Sox are the only team not on the Pacific Coast

If you are right about the $, then that makes lots of sense. How attractive would Chicago be to someone from Japan? I would guess that this could be a stumbling block compared to the west coast.

SoxOnTop
10-07-2003, 06:16 PM
I love this idea and the analysis! And this is just the kind of big splash that Kenny likes to make. I've got to think this is somewhere in Plan B since a Bartolo signing would not give us enough money to go after him. Of course, an increase in payroll to get Matsui could be justified by increased national exposure. TV deals with Japan as well as increased Japanese attendence at the games. I mean look at the insanity that Ichiro caused in Seattle.

Getting Matsui would allow us to let Alomar and Valentine walk, hence a wash on the payroll. Plus, with a solid SS, why not let Tony G start at second. The guy will give you a .270 ave and .350 obp for the season which should give us a nice 1-2 punch.

MRKARNO
10-07-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
why not let Tony G start at second.

Because he was pitiful against righties

MisterB
10-07-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Plus, with a solid SS, why not let Tony G start at second. The guy will give you a .270 ave and .350 obp for the season which should give us a nice 1-2 punch.

Graffy has never put up those kinds of numbers with anything more than about 170 ab's. The more playing time he gets, the worse his numbers are. He's just not an everyday player.

poorme
10-07-2003, 08:10 PM
the white sox are too cheap to even scout asian players, let alone sign them.

MRKARNO
10-07-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by poorme
the white sox are too cheap to even scout asian players, let alone sign them.

Ever heard of Tetsu Yofu on AA Birmingham?

He has some potential and he's from asia.

He throws 9 different types of pitches supposedly

Daver
10-07-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Ever heard of Tetsu Yofu on AA Birmingham?

He has some potential and he's from asia.

He throws 9 different types of pitches supposedly

He throws 3 pitches and three variations of a fastball.

He is also 29 years old,not exactly a prospect.

poorme
10-07-2003, 08:29 PM
they've picked up a couple of asians who were brought over by other organizations.

the white sox are practically non-existent in the international scouting arena. (other than latin america)

RedPinStripes
10-07-2003, 08:33 PM
Why are we talking about another SS? We have the most celebreated .230 hitter in Chicago history!

voodoochile
10-07-2003, 09:13 PM
I'd trade Hangar for Matsui in a heartbeat....

longshot7
10-07-2003, 09:20 PM
Poor Hangar! I wouldn't trade you. Actually, on second thought...

I see Seattle & Anaheim as the front-runners. The angels really want to start courting the Asian viewership market, like the M's have done.

cornball
10-07-2003, 10:23 PM
Based on what everyone says about this guy, he seems to be a good fit (leadoff and SS). How much will this guy demand in salary, do you think?

StepsInSC
10-07-2003, 11:17 PM
He'd probably refuse to come to somewhere as far east as somewhere as Chicago, unless it was for the Yankees.

humansushi
10-08-2003, 04:05 AM
I live in Japan and watch Matsuii play. He is a very solid Shortstop with good athletic abilities. He batted .332 , 36 Homeruns, 119 runs scored, 87 RBI's, 33 stolen bases. All outstanding lead-off numbers. BUT HERE'S THE KICKER, He's only walked 53 times compared to 112 K's. Not very good out of the leadoff spot. But with that avg. it's permissable. A very free swinging hitter which I would love to see on the Sox, so I could at least watch all the games on TV, and not only Seattle or that team from NY.

RichH55
10-08-2003, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Based on what everyone says about this guy, he seems to be a good fit (leadoff and SS). How much will this guy demand in salary, do you think?

Enough to take into effect he's a good SS, a good leadoff hitter, marketable, and teams have been willing to pay a premium for Japanese Players.....So...ALOT

RichH55
10-08-2003, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by humansushi
I live in Japan and watch Matsuii play. He is a very solid Shortstop with good athletic abilities. He batted .332 , 36 Homeruns, 119 runs scored, 87 RBI's, 33 stolen bases. All outstanding lead-off numbers. BUT HERE'S THE KICKER, He's only walked 53 times compared to 112 K's. Not very good out of the leadoff spot. But with that avg. it's permissable. A very free swinging hitter which I would love to see on the Sox, so I could at least watch all the games on TV, and not only Seattle or that team from NY.

So whats that push his OBP to? Like .380? Good for a leadoff hitter these days

And say what you will about K's, but at least he will see 3 pitches an at bat then....the more pitches the leadoff hitter sees, the better

RichH55
10-08-2003, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Why are we talking about another SS? We have the most celebreated .230 hitter in Chicago history!

Plus he would only cost roughly 9 times what Jose will make next year, and his numbers will fall off from what he did in Japan.....Will still have good numbers, but probably not enough to justify the cost


Who is the 2B from Japan who might be coming over this offseason as well? He seems tempting as well

Clarkdog
10-08-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by RichH55

Who is the 2B from Japan who might be coming over this offseason as well? He seems tempting as well

Not sure how I became so interested in Japanese baseball but...

2B Tadahito Iguchi

Iguchi's career numbers are a little erratic, but this year he's at .348/ .447/ .584 with 25 HR, 37 SB and 100 RBI in 471 AB (76 BB/74 K). All career highs...he had a better year than Matsui. But careerwise Matsui has the better numbers.

soxtalker
10-08-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by humansushi
I live in Japan and watch Matsuii play. He is a very solid Shortstop with good athletic abilities. He batted .332 , 36 Homeruns, 119 runs scored, 87 RBI's, 33 stolen bases. All outstanding lead-off numbers. BUT HERE'S THE KICKER, He's only walked 53 times compared to 112 K's. Not very good out of the leadoff spot. But with that avg. it's permissable. A very free swinging hitter which I would love to see on the Sox, so I could at least watch all the games on TV, and not only Seattle or that team from NY.

You'd love to see a free swinger on the Sox? No thanks. Unless I misunderstand, we already have plenty of those. I'd like to get someone with a bit more plate discipline to complement those free swingers we already have. I'm perfectly willing to take someone with a bit lower batting average who takes a lot more walks, resulting in a higher OBP -- particularly for the lead-off position.

Hangar18
10-08-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
..... and he's from asia.

He throws 9 different types of pitches supposedly

You make him sound like he works at Benihana Heh heh

Hangar18
10-08-2003, 11:05 AM
But Seriously folks,
Ive been thinking about Kaz for a while, and man, I cant tell you
how DUMB the sox would be to NOT go after this guy.
he FILLS 3 Glaring Holes the SOX have at that Position
Plus a HOLE theyve IGNORED for too long.

1. SPEED
2. LEAD-OFF HITTER
3. ATTENTION GETTER (for the Media)
4. MARKETABLE (we've ignored the Asian Community too long)

You can get ALL OF THIS, IN ONE PACKAGE. Not bad.
I say we Sign him

StepsInSC
10-08-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
Not sure how I became so interested in Japanese baseball but...

2B Tadahito Iguchi

Iguchi's career numbers are a little erratic, but this year he's at .348/ .447/ .584 with 25 HR, 37 SB and 100 RBI in 471 AB (76 BB/74 K). All career highs...he had a better year than Matsui. But careerwise Matsui has the better numbers.


Is that the Iguchi with Daei this season?

Clarkdog
10-08-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Is that the Iguchi with Daei this season?

Yes.

link (http://japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=970)

Clarkdog
10-08-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Based on what everyone says about this guy, he seems to be a good fit (leadoff and SS). How much will this guy demand in salary, do you think?

The Angels reportedly offered him a three-year $17M deal, that was quickly denied when the Seibu Lions filed a complaint to the Commissioner's office for tampering. So the money probably lays out (2004: $4M, 2005: $6M, 2006: $7M)

Clarkdog
10-08-2003, 03:40 PM
One other note about Matsui, the Japanese Team that is pursuing him besides Seibu is the Yomiuri Giants - and they want to make him an outfielder.

So if Matsui wants to play SS, it's either stay at Seibu or play in the MLB.

fuzzy_patters
10-08-2003, 03:50 PM
I do not like the sound of this guy. He strikes out a ton, and he does not walk. His overall offensive numbers sound pretty good, but so did Shinjo's. Most would agree that Shinjo has not been that great.

Also, why overpay for the marketability of a Japanese player? Wouldn't it make more sense to find an American player, so that we don't have to pay the guy for marketability? Wins market themselves, and the money we could save by "buying American" is money that could be spent on other players. I don't think the Sox need to be waisting money on the next overhyped Japanese superstar.

bc2k
10-08-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18

4. MARKETABLE (we've ignored the Asian Community too long)

Dude, our park is within WOKing distance of Chinatown.

dan
10-09-2003, 09:11 AM
Matsui may be a stud, and if you look at the other Japanese players, their salaries may have been worth much more than initially thought. For example, who in Seattle would argue that Ichiro wasn't worth every dime and more he was paid? I just hope he's better than Hideki Matsui.

poorme
10-09-2003, 09:15 AM
anyone recall hideki irabu? so taguchi? shinjo?

StepsInSC
10-09-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by poorme
anyone recall hideki irabu? so taguchi? shinjo?

So whats your argument, that there is a 0% chance he would be good because some other Japanese ballplayers have ended up not meeting expectations?

Everyone here probably realizes it would be risky.

poorme
10-09-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by dan
if you look at the other Japanese players, their salaries may have been worth much more than initially thought.

not all of them.

fuzzy_patters
10-09-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
So whats your argument, that there is a 0% chance he would be good because some other Japanese ballplayers have ended up not meeting expectations?

Everyone here probably realizes it would be risky.

Would you rather pay 7 million dollars to a guy who might not meet expectations, or would you rather pay an experienced major league player 7 million dollars? With the hype that currently surrounds Japanese players, the Sox will have to overpay for this guy. I would rather take a less risky domestic option, or save the money for signing a draft pick that no one can afford. After all, that is how the Cubs got Prior.

Hangar18
10-09-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
........ I would rather take a less risky domestic option, or save the money for signing a draft pick that no one can afford. After all, that is how the Cubs got Prior.

Isnt that weird? Thats how most will remember the Messiah and
his stint with the Cubs. Him being in uniform wasnt a result of
"good Scouting", but Greed and Having a Ton of Money.

34 Inch Stick
10-09-2003, 03:39 PM
Reminds me of the Blackhawks with Russians. By the time the got into the market the best were already playing in the NHL.

RichH55
10-09-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Reminds me of the Blackhawks with Russians. By the time the got into the market the best were already playing in the NHL.

Making up for that now arent they?:)