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RichH55
10-07-2003, 03:40 PM
Anyone have a nice list of overpriced Pitchers? (4-7 million dollar range?)

If we do take on salary for Konerko, it would probably be a player like that


Odalis Perez comes to mind, but I could be wrong

Hangar18
10-07-2003, 03:41 PM
As long as we can deal with Dumb teams like
the Dodgers and Pirates, we should be OK

RichH55
10-07-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
As long as we can deal with Dumb teams like
the Dodgers and Pirates, we should be OK
Problem is ...the dumber the team, the less the talent to raid

gosox41
10-08-2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
As long as we can deal with Dumb teams like
the Dodgers and Pirates, we should be OK

We really showed those Pirates when we made the Ritchie for Wells/Fogg trade.

If they're a dumb team, what's it say about the Sox?

Bob

RichH55
10-08-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
We really showed those Pirates when we made the Ritchie for Wells/Fogg trade.

If they're a dumb team, what's it say about the Sox?

Bob

I don't know...why don't you ask Marte about it>?

gosox41
10-08-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I don't know...why don't you ask Marte about it>?

Do you think the Sox can trade Marte back to the Pirates for Wells and Fogg? How about just Wells?

Marte is a very good reliever, but giving up a minor leaug SP for a major league releiver is not nearly as big as an accomplishment as getting 2 top SP prospects for a pitcher 3 years removedf rom the waiver wire who has shown throughout his career to be nothing special.

Bob

Brian26
10-09-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Marte is a very good reliever, but giving up a minor leaug SP for a major league releiver is not nearly as big as an accomplishment as getting 2 top SP prospects for a pitcher 3 years removedf rom the waiver wire who has shown throughout his career to be nothing special.

20/20 hindsight and beauty must be in the eye of the beholder.
Can you honestly say you considered Kip a "top starting pitcher prospect" as he stunk up the joint in 2000 and 2001? Do you know ANYONE who did? Let's not try to revise history. Wells was a bust for 2+ seasons after his decent 1999 numbers. Nobody here liked him. Glad that the change of scenery did him well, but let's be honest with ourselves. I liked Fogg a lot from what I saw of him at the end of 2k1, but that was mostly out of the pen. I wouldn't have labeled him a top sp prospect at that point though. He was in the same category as Ginter, Beirne, Wells, Guerrier, etc.

RichH55
10-09-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Do you think the Sox can trade Marte back to the Pirates for Wells and Fogg? How about just Wells?

Marte is a very good reliever, but giving up a minor leaug SP for a major league releiver is not nearly as big as an accomplishment as getting 2 top SP prospects for a pitcher 3 years removedf rom the waiver wire who has shown throughout his career to be nothing special.

Bob


A) Fogg = Top SP Prospect? ***?

B) I always liked Kip Wells, but I think he is a guy that benefitted from a change in scenery

C) Marte might start next year as well, and has proven to be dominant

D) Getting Ritchie was taking a chance...you can make a good case that KW gave up too much value, but the trade centered around Wells, and I don't think Lowe can make or break any deal
--> The last two pitchers the Pirates "gave" up on were Lieber and Schmidt....worth a shot, even if it didn't work out

And yes I do presuppose that Wells didnt have a future in Chicago...which can be argued against of course, and its not a good trade by any stretch....just playing some devils advocate

jeremyb1
10-09-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
20/20 hindsight and beauty must be in the eye of the beholder.
Can you honestly say you considered Kip a "top starting pitcher prospect" as he stunk up the joint in 2000 and 2001? Do you know ANYONE who did? Let's not try to revise history. Wells was a bust for 2+ seasons after his decent 1999 numbers. Nobody here liked him. Glad that the change of scenery did him well, but let's be honest with ourselves. I liked Fogg a lot from what I saw of him at the end of 2k1, but that was mostly out of the pen. I wouldn't have labeled him a top sp prospect at that point though. He was in the same category as Ginter, Beirne, Wells, Guerrier, etc.

Its so funny that you say that in light of the Marte deal in which we traded our fourth best prospect for a player that was headed to the waiver wire. I saw a lot more people - myself included - point out that a young pitcher isn't finished after a couple mediocre seasons (see Johnson, Randy or Brown, Kevin) before that deal was made than I saw people say Guerrier was worthless and we should trade him for a player we could most likely have for nothing before the Marte deal.

RichH55
10-09-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Its so funny that you say that in light of the Marte deal in which we traded our fourth best prospect for a player that was headed to the waiver wire. I saw a lot more people - myself included - point out that a young pitcher isn't finished after a couple mediocre seasons (see Johnson, Randy or Brown, Kevin) before that deal was made than I saw people say Guerrier was worthless and we should trade him for a player we could most likely have for nothing before the Marte deal.


Any thoughts that Marte was going to the waiver wire was conjecture at best, and no promise of him coming to the Sox.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

soxtalker
10-09-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Its so funny that you say that in light of the Marte deal in which we traded our fourth best prospect for a player that was headed to the waiver wire. I saw a lot more people - myself included - point out that a young pitcher isn't finished after a couple mediocre seasons (see Johnson, Randy or Brown, Kevin) before that deal was made than I saw people say Guerrier was worthless and we should trade him for a player we could most likely have for nothing before the Marte deal.

I agree.

I've always thought that we have given up on several of our young pitchers way too soon. Now, there were a lot of fans who would disagree, and I don't find a lot of tolerance among many fans for giving players time to develop. (That's probably a reflection of business and maybe our society in general.)

KW, of course, is quite aggressive and focused on winning now also. In addition, as I've stated several times on the board, I have the impression that he may not have placed the same value on many of these players that were brought in during his predecessor's time.

gosox41
10-09-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
20/20 hindsight and beauty must be in the eye of the beholder.
Can you honestly say you considered Kip a "top starting pitcher prospect" as he stunk up the joint in 2000 and 2001? Do you know ANYONE who did? Let's not try to revise history. Wells was a bust for 2+ seasons after his decent 1999 numbers. Nobody here liked him. Glad that the change of scenery did him well, but let's be honest with ourselves. I liked Fogg a lot from what I saw of him at the end of 2k1, but that was mostly out of the pen. I wouldn't have labeled him a top sp prospect at that point though. He was in the same category as Ginter, Beirne, Wells, Guerrier, etc.

I wasn't posting here until October 2002. But I was at some other Sox newsgroups. And similar to what I have posted here on other occasions, I have ripped the Sox for not developing their talent. I ripped into Garland earleir this season. Since the beginning of 2001, it was clear Nardi wasn't the answer at pitching coach and none of the pitchers were listening to him. The finally canned him in '02. But I still think the Sox are doing a lousy job developing their pitchers. All those arms that were drafed from '97-today and all the Sox have to show for it is Buehrle. Wells is succeeding elsewher because he is finally in the right environment.

BUt in 2000 and 2001, Wells was still a top prospect. He had good stuff, it was just learning the mental aspect of the game that has made him a success. Wells was a step above Ginter, Fogg, and all those other guys you mentioned in 2000-2001.

Bob

gosox41
10-09-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
A) Fogg = Top SP Prospect? ***?

B) I always liked Kip Wells, but I think he is a guy that benefitted from a change in scenery

C) Marte might start next year as well, and has proven to be dominant

D) Getting Ritchie was taking a chance...you can make a good case that KW gave up too much value, but the trade centered around Wells, and I don't think Lowe can make or break any deal
--> The last two pitchers the Pirates "gave" up on were Lieber and Schmidt....worth a shot, even if it didn't work out

And yes I do presuppose that Wells didnt have a future in Chicago...which can be argued against of course, and its not a good trade by any stretch....just playing some devils advocate

IN response to your points:

A. I overhyped Fogg. He was sill a solid prospect, but below Wells

B. Wells benefitted from a change of scenery because the SOx never bothered developing him here. Nardi was awful as a pitching coach.

C. I doubt Marte will start next year.

D. Ritchie was a stupid chance. To trade for him because Pittsburgh gave up 2 other pitchers that turned out good is bad logic on KW's part. The Cubs got Lieber for nothing and he did turn out good. But Ritchie was never that impressive, especially when he was with the Twins.

Bob

voodoochile
10-09-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
B. Wells benefitted from a change of scenery because the SOx never bothered developing him here. Nardi was awful as a pitching coach.

Bob

I wonder how different things could have been with a different pitching coach. The young Sox pitchers all seem to share a lack of mental toughness. I look at guys like Wood, Prior and Zambrano who all pitch with attitude and I wonder whether it is bad scouting (overvaluing "stuff" over mental fortitude) or if there is something inherently wrong with the way the pitchers are handled while coming up and then once they reach the big leagues.

The young Sox pitchers all pitch like they are afraid to make a mistake. Somewhere someone is failing. I think Nardi was a big part of it, but I wonder what else is going on that prevents these pitchers from believing in themselves.

Just to be clear, I am not claiming that guys like Wright, Garland, Kip Wells, Neil Cotts and others have "stuff" that is equal to the young flubbie pitchers nor am I saying they are definitely worse. I am merely talking about the way they approach the game. Is it a failure to draft attitude or develop it that limits the success of Sox pitching prospects?

RichH55
10-09-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
IN response to your points:

A. I overhyped Fogg. He was sill a solid prospect, but below Wells

B. Wells benefitted from a change of scenery because the SOx never bothered developing him here. Nardi was awful as a pitching coach.

C. I doubt Marte will start next year.

D. Ritchie was a stupid chance. To trade for him because Pittsburgh gave up 2 other pitchers that turned out good is bad logic on KW's part. The Cubs got Lieber for nothing and he did turn out good. But Ritchie was never that impressive, especially when he was with the Twins.

Bob

You are probably right about C, though I was just pointing it out as an option

Regarding B....I think it was just a change of scenery that did it....I don't think the Pirates are a good organization at any level. I pointed out Lieber and Schmidt going away to be great...and another guy with more ceiling/talent than even Wells is Kris Benson who has not panned out.

I think Wells getting the pressure of Chicago, and going to a different situation was key for him. If it would have been anywhere else I think you would have seen a similar progression....but even if you took the Pirates Pitching Coach and put him in Chicago while keeping Wells here, I don't think he would have succeeded like he has

jabrch
10-10-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Anyone have a nice list of overpriced Pitchers? (4-7 million dollar range?)

If we do take on salary for Konerko, it would probably be a player like that


Odalis Perez comes to mind, but I could be wrong

Konerko for Odalis Perez? You don't really think the Dodgers would do that, do you?

kraut83
10-10-2003, 04:19 PM
Unfortunately, I think it's time to face the fact that there really is no market for a below average $6+ mm 1st baseman. Getting rid of Konerko this offseason is turning into more of a pipe dream than anything. I've heard the Dodgers and O's. Any thoguhts on possibilities of the following, or what we could get in return:

Seattle: Paulie as DH if Edgar retires.

Atlanta: Julio Franco, Matt Franco, Robert Fick. Paulie as tallest
midget. I would still take him over anyone of those 3.

jabrch
10-10-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by kraut83
Unfortunately, I think it's time to face the fact that there really is no market for a below average $6+ mm 1st baseman. Getting rid of Konerko this offseason is turning into more of a pipe dream than anything. I've heard the Dodgers and O's. Any thoguhts on possibilities of the following, or what we could get in return:

Seattle: Paulie as DH if Edgar retires.

Atlanta: Julio Franco, Matt Franco, Robert Fick. Paulie as tallest
midget. I would still take him over anyone of those 3.


That's a 9MM (kicker if we trade him) 1B. Not gonna happen. Just not gonna happen. Edgar retires and they can find plenty of other DH/1B. Atlanta has major salary issues. They need to find a way to bring back Sheffield, Javy, Maddux, etc. Not gonna happen. They certainly won't take PK.

He is staying put. We just can't trade that deal. No way. All we can hope for is that he finally have a good COMPLETE season so we can get value from him. Trading him, without taking on someone else's garbage, isn't gonna happen.

hold2dibber
10-10-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by kraut83
Unfortunately, I think it's time to face the fact that there really is no market for a below average $6+ mm 1st baseman. Getting rid of Konerko this offseason is turning into more of a pipe dream than anything. I've heard the Dodgers and O's. Any thoguhts on possibilities of the following, or what we could get in return:

Seattle: Paulie as DH if Edgar retires.

Atlanta: Julio Franco, Matt Franco, Robert Fick. Paulie as tallest
midget. I would still take him over anyone of those 3.

The problem is, Seattle and Atlanta (and other teams) will be able to pick up players better than Paulie (or at least as good) for much less than Paulie makes. Hitters like like Brad Fullmer, Rafael Palmiero, Ellis Burks, Juan Gonzalez, David Ortiz, Jeremy Burnitz, Brian Jordan, Raul Mondesi, Reggie Sanders, Carl Everett and Rondell White will all be available in free agency, and all of them will be a LOT cheaper than the $9 mm PK will be due if he's traded. Earlier this week I held out hope they could deal him. But the more I think about it, the more convinced I become that he's not going anywhere.

RichH55
10-11-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Konerko for Odalis Perez? You don't really think the Dodgers would do that, do you?

From what my understanding is (and I could be wrong)

Perez is in line for a raise (5 million meets the "overpriced" criteria)

Perez is in a bit of a doghouse in LA, and LA needs hitting (PK had a crap year, but there is no reason to believe he should be a 800+ OPS guy every year--> Not exactly blowing the doors off the place, but each team views players differently)

Mcgriff is gone and LA needs a 1B

I think Dan Evans was here when we got PK, so he probably has him on the radar

If Driefort, Brown, Edwin Jackson, and Alravez are all there then Perez might be even more expendable


LA is allowed to have a high payroll(Hundleys monsterous deal comes off the books after next year)

LA is committed to playing Middle Infielders who can't hit AT ALL...so they will look to "upgrade" some spots


It's a posibility was all I said --> Are there negatives
Duh

Pk is coming off a bad year, overpriced already and a trade kicker that is ridiculous


Overall I think its a posibility...which me not being privy to trade talks is the best I can do at this point....Its better than talking about how we are getting both Arod and Schilling:)