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View Full Version : $60M Payroll; Goal: Playoff Appearance While Rebuilding


joecrede
10-07-2003, 03:33 PM
Per Rosenthal's article that's the payroll. The goal I'm setting is a playoff appearance while rebuilding.

With that in mind, here's my roster.

1b Konerko 8.0M
2b Vacant
SS Valentin 5.0M
3b Crede 350K
C Olivo 350K
LF Vacant
CF Reed 325K
RF Vacant
DH Vacant

SP Loaiza 3.5M
SP Marte 500K
SP Garland 3.0M (Arbitration)
SP Schoenweiss 2.0M (Arbitration)
SP Vacant

RP Koch $6.4M
RP Wright 400k
RP Sanders 325K
RP Vacant
RP Vacant
RP Vacant

Bench
C Vacant
UI Graffanino $1.5M
UI Vacant
OF Rowand 450K
OF Vacant

Decisions have to be made on Buehrle, Lee, Ordonez, and Thomas.

I'd bring Thomas back @ $8M raising my payroll to ~$40M.

I'd deal Lee and Ordonez because keeping them would be ~$22M and I think you can find productive corner outfielders a lot cheaper, not to mention they should have respectable trade value.

If they can get a solid pitching prospect, (maybe two), a solid middle-infield prospect, and a decent young hitter for those two, I would keep Buehrle @ $7M (arbitration) raising my payroll to $47M.

If they can't, I'd deal Buehrle for the best middle-of-the-diamond prospects or young players I could find, keeping my payroll @ ~$40M, using the other $20M to fill holes (2 years for Everett @ $14M, put him in left, 2 yrs for Sullivan @ ~$5M, 1 yr for Gordon @ $4M?)

Just some thoughts ...

RichH55
10-07-2003, 03:38 PM
Assuming Valentin's option didnt vest....then he would cost a good share less than 5 million...that would help your projection


I think the Marte starting option looks stronger every day.....Hopefully they can bring back Gordon

joecrede
10-07-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Assuming Valentin's option didnt vest....then he would cost a good share less than 5 million...that would help your projection


I think the Marte starting option looks stronger every day.....Hopefully they can bring back Gordon

Valentin's option didn't vest, so bring him back at around $3M?

I'd like them to bring back Gordon and Sullivan. In my projection, Colon and Buehrle are replaced by Marte and Schoenwiess which means about 90 innings will be missing so I think a guy like Sullivan, who can pitch every day, would be invaluable.

RichH55
10-07-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Valentin's option didn't vest, so bring him back at around $3M?

I'd like them to bring back Gordon and Sullivan. In my projection, Colon and Buehrle are replaced by Marte and Schoenwiess which means about 90 innings will be missing so I think a guy like Sullivan, who can pitch every day, would be invaluable.

I've been saying 1.5 million....>Gordon there is a shot at (for a two year deal)....>Sullivan is as good as gone....3.1 million is alot for a reliever

nodiggity59
10-07-2003, 04:09 PM
rebuilding means dumping long term dead weight and extraneous salary. that for sure means bye bye to thomas at $8mil, alomar, and everette. hopefully we can keep frank and pay him what hes worth and not a penny more. a deal should then be in the works to trade valentin and koch, however unlikely.

i dont like losing our young outfielders, they are solid and
i think weve reached mags' ceiling for salary, its stupid
to dump young talent. lee, in my opinion, is the next manny
ramirez.

im willing to take a chance on konerko b/c we cant get much for him and the upside if he returns to form is huge. hes younger, has got a few years to work it out.

it terms of pickups i agree with the sox's current offer to colon
but nothing more. obviously young pitching would be our main
focus, perhaps strictly in minor league prospects if that is
all that is available. loaiza looks like a dafe bet if we can pay him.

lastly, if theres one thing we can take from the flubbies its
kenny lofton. theyre paying him less than 2mil this year! i know hes not just your average contact hitter but the idea is the same: at short, second, and center field we should pick up guys who are quick and have a high OBP. there are great pickups to be made
in this market and i think they would instantly help the sox.

obviously we need a manager who maximizes the potential of talent.

these are just ideas, by the by i think the sox are right there if they get colon and dont need to rebuild for a minimum three
years. at any rate. i think this is a good way to do it.

joecrede
10-07-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I've been saying 1.5 million....>Gordon there is a shot at (for a two year deal)....>Sullivan is as good as gone....3.1 million is alot for a reliever

I think Gordon will be in the $3-4M range. $3.1M for a middle reliever is a bit high, but Sullivan can pitch almost every day and seeing as how it's the last year of his contract, I think I would pick it up.

voodoochile
10-07-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by nodiggity59
rebuilding means dumping long term dead weight and extraneous salary. that for sure means bye bye to thomas at $8mil, alomar, and everette. hopefully we can keep frank and pay him what hes worth and not a penny more. a deal should then be in the works to trade valentin and koch, however unlikely.

i dont like losing our young outfielders, they are solid and
i think weve reached mags' ceiling for salary, its stupid
to dump young talent. lee, in my opinion, is the next manny
ramirez.

im willing to take a chance on konerko b/c we cant get much for him and the upside if he returns to form is huge. hes younger, has got a few years to work it out.

it terms of pickups i agree with the sox's current offer to colon
but nothing more. obviously young pitching would be our main
focus, perhaps strictly in minor league prospects if that is
all that is available. loaiza looks like a dafe bet if we can pay him.

lastly, if theres one thing we can take from the flubbies its
kenny lofton. theyre paying him less than 2mil this year! i know hes not just your average contact hitter but the idea is the same: at short, second, and center field we should pick up guys who are quick and have a high OBP. there are great pickups to be made
in this market and i think they would instantly help the sox.

obviously we need a manager who maximizes the potential of talent.

these are just ideas, by the by i think the sox are right there if they get colon and dont need to rebuild for a minimum three
years. at any rate. i think this is a good way to do it.

Welcome Aboard! :D:

MRKARNO
10-07-2003, 05:05 PM
I'm not in favor of rebuilding and am in favor of retooling

jeremyb1
10-07-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I'd deal Lee and Ordonez because keeping them would be ~$22M and I think you can find productive corner outfielders a lot cheaper, not to mention they should have respectable trade value.

If they can get a solid pitching prospect, (maybe two), a solid middle-infield prospect, and a decent young hitter for those two, I would keep Buehrle @ $7M (arbitration) raising my payroll to $47M.

I think you'd probably lose too much production if you moved both Lee and Maggs. Obviously it depends on what you do with the money you save but those guys would be really hard to replace. Also, I wouldn't blindly assume that just because those two are good players you're guaranteed to find someone to take on their entire salary. IIRC, no one has signed a deal for 14 million since Ramirez did about 3 offseasons ago, so its entirely possible that no one would be willing to take Maggs' contract next season or if they do, we won't recieve anything in return in the way of talent.

KingXerxes
10-07-2003, 05:23 PM
With that in mind, here's my roster.

1b Konerko 8.0M
2b Vacant
SS Valentin 5.0M
3b Crede 350K
C Olivo 350K
LF Vacant
CF Reed 325K
RF Vacant
DH Vacant

SP Loaiza 3.5M
SP Marte 500K
SP Garland 3.0M (Arbitration)
SP Schoenweiss 2.0M (Arbitration)
SP Vacant

RP Koch $6.4M
RP Wright 400k
RP Sanders 325K
RP Vacant
RP Vacant
RP Vacant

Bench
C Vacant
UI Graffanino $1.5M
UI Vacant
OF Rowand 450K
OF Vacant

With all due respect, I don't see how that team posted above competes for anything, and you've only got about $20 million to shore it up.

MRKARNO
10-07-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes


With all due respect, I don't see how that team posted above competes for anything, and you've only got about $20 million to shore it up.

I guess you have to assume the vacant spots are taken up by people whom we've traded for

KingXerxes
10-07-2003, 05:36 PM
Who did we trade for? They had better be pretty good, because with that starting pitching you had better have gotten Ted Williams, both Waner brothers and Rogers Hornsby.

joecrede
10-07-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I think you'd probably lose too much production if you moved both Lee and Maggs. Obviously it depends on what you do with the money you save but those guys would be really hard to replace. Also, I wouldn't blindly assume that just because those two are good players you're guaranteed to find someone to take on their entire salary. IIRC, no one has signed a deal for 14 million since Ramirez did about 3 offseasons ago, so its entirely possible that no one would be willing to take Maggs' contract next season or if they do, we won't recieve anything in return in the way of talent.

The big question in my projected roster is what could the Sox get in return for Buehrle, Lee, and Ordonez? If they were able to deal those three for good value that would free up payroll to keep Everett to replace Lee. Would he take 2 years @ $14-15M?

joecrede
10-07-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Who did we trade for? They had better be pretty good, because with that starting pitching you had better have gotten Ted Williams, both Waner brothers and Rogers Hornsby.

I think Marte and Schoenweiss are intriguing candidates for the rotation. Combined are they Buehrle and Colon, no. But they do not carry the huge downside ($$$) risk that those two do.

soxtalker
10-07-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by nodiggity59
rebuilding means dumping long term dead weight and extraneous salary. that for sure means bye bye to thomas at $8mil, alomar, and everette. hopefully we can keep frank and pay him what hes worth and not a penny more. a deal should then be in the works to trade valentin and koch, however unlikely.


How do you define what Frank is worth? I'm opening that much-debated topic, when that isn't really my intention. I haven't been a big Frank supporter over the past several seasons, so I'm not making the emotional argument. However, I've been looking at numbers lately. $6M or $8M might not be too bad of a valuation for a fellow that gets the kind of OBP that he does. Yes, I'd prefer that he hit for average instead of HR like the Frank of old. But that may come with the new manager. He does draw an awful lot of walks.

Chicago Derby
10-07-2003, 10:19 PM
$6.4M for Koch? What's he getting now? (Squat, I hope).

poorme
10-07-2003, 10:28 PM
wow. is this depressing. i'm in favor of starting over from scratch.

cornball
10-07-2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I'm not in favor of rebuilding and am in favor of retooling

If this team "'rebuilds", I think the talk will be relocate. It will not sell in this town!!!

This team is not that far off, few adjustments and commitment to build a winner is all thats needed. You can't lose the leaders in all pitching and offensive catagories.

If in fact, the budget is 60MM, for next year this team will have a slim chance.

Daver
10-07-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by cornball
If this team "'rebuilds", I think the talk will be relocate. It will not sell in this town!!!



It is impossible to relocate this team,no matter how close JR is to Bud Selig,it is still impossible.

You can base it purely on numbers if you like,they drew close to 2 million in attendance this year,which is median for any team in the league,but the truth is the anti trust clause handcuffs any move that JR might want to make,if Bud were to try and move a team that is not floundering financially in their own market congress would yank the crutch that MLB has been leaning on for years so fast it would make your head spin.

RichH55
10-08-2003, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think Gordon will be in the $3-4M range. $3.1M for a middle reliever is a bit high, but Sullivan can pitch almost every day and seeing as how it's the last year of his contract, I think I would pick it up.


If the choice is between Gordon and Sullivan ...then its no question its Gordon...the early numbers on Gordon were 2.5, but they could very well escalate

3.1 for a Middle Reliever who can't close is a bit of a luxury, especially for this club....I'd like to have him back as well, but probably not at 3.1

RichH55
10-08-2003, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
The big question in my projected roster is what could the Sox get in return for Buehrle, Lee, and Ordonez? If they were able to deal those three for good value that would free up payroll to keep Everett to replace Lee. Would he take 2 years @ $14-15M?

He probably would...but then again..that salary is about what C. Lee will make(probably higher) ...so just keep C. Lee


I think Mags is gone. And hopefully Konerko too....but we aren't getting Prior back in these deals...I think best case would be Brian Lawerence....I like him alot, but hes a # 3 starter....

If you can land Lawrence and Vasquez and keep Buerhle...you can have a really nice staff

RichH55
10-08-2003, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by Chicago Derby
$6.4M for Koch? What's he getting now? (Squat, I hope).

6.25 for next year

RichH55
10-08-2003, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think Marte and Schoenweiss are intriguing candidates for the rotation. Combined are they Buehrle and Colon, no. But they do not carry the huge downside ($$$) risk that those two do.

Schoenweiss carries the huge downside risk in that he sucks as a Starter....Marte is intriguing...but counting on Scott for anything other than to maybe get the 5th slot, suck for awhile, then look pretty good in the bullpen is asking for pain.

How many ephinanies in SPs are you looking for?

RichH55
10-08-2003, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
How do you define what Frank is worth? I'm opening that much-debated topic, when that isn't really my intention. I haven't been a big Frank supporter over the past several seasons, so I'm not making the emotional argument. However, I've been looking at numbers lately. $6M or $8M might not be too bad of a valuation for a fellow that gets the kind of OBP that he does. Yes, I'd prefer that he hit for average instead of HR like the Frank of old. But that may come with the new manager. He does draw an awful lot of walks.

Well Frank at either 6 or 8 is alot less than Mags at 14(not to mention its his walk year)...and Mags will bring more back in a trade....Granted Mags puts up better numbers...but not that much better to justify the difference

RichH55
10-08-2003, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think Gordon will be in the $3-4M range. $3.1M for a middle reliever is a bit high, but Sullivan can pitch almost every day and seeing as how it's the last year of his contract, I think I would pick it up.

Just bring up Matt Ginter already

cornball
10-08-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Daver
It is impossible to relocate this team,no matter how close JR is to Bud Selig,it is still impossible.

You can base it purely on numbers if you like,they drew close to 2 million in attendance this year,which is median for any team in the league,but the truth is the anti trust clause handcuffs any move that JR might want to make,if Bud were to try and move a team that is not floundering financially in their own market congress would yank the crutch that MLB has been leaning on for years so fast it would make your head spin.

The point is ....they drew nearly 2 million with a contending team until late September. If you rebuild and get rid of the top players you will have not even be close to median attendance.

By the way, median payroll is over 70 million.

mrwag
10-08-2003, 09:36 AM
All we need is a few minor tweaks, along with a GOOD manager, and we're in the post season. Keep almost everyone, ditch Koch and Konerko. Why are we talking about getting rid of our RBI guys like Frank/Mags/Lee. That's the heart of our lineup.

They were so close this year, I'd hate to see everything thrown away to save 5-10 million. This division is weak - it's ours for the taking. Let's be rash here.

JRIG
10-08-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
6.25 for next year

$6.375 million to be very accurate.

gosox3072
10-08-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by mrwag
Keep almost everyone, ditch Koch and Konerko.
I dont know why people dont understand that we CANT ditch these guys. If we dont want them on our team we have to trade them. In baseball when you sign a contract it is guaranteed money. We cant just let them go.

poorme
10-08-2003, 11:47 AM
best bet is to play them and pray they play decently. then maybe you can trade them.

voodoochile
10-08-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by gosox3072
I dont know why people dont understand that we CANT ditch these guys. If we dont want them on our team we have to trade them. In baseball when you sign a contract it is guaranteed money. We cant just let them go.

I think most of us actually do know that. It's an expression meaning trade them for a bag of baseballs if possible...

poorme
10-08-2003, 12:10 PM
unfortunately, you can't trade them for a bag of baseballs. you might be able to swap for some other team's salary albatross. hope for a navarro-eldred type swap.

voodoochile
10-08-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by poorme
unfortunately, you can't trade them for a bag of baseballs. you might be able to swap for some other team's salary albatross. hope for a navarro-eldred type swap.

Yeah, I was joking. Good example from the Sox past. That trade also netted Jose Valentin who has been a good player for the Sox.

Most people point to the Hundley for Grudzielanek (or however you spell it) and Karros as an example of a team dumping their overpaid underachieving player for other overpaid players and making it work out for them.

mrwag
10-08-2003, 12:18 PM
Where there's a will, there's a way. A good creative GM could figure it out.

hold2dibber
10-08-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by poorme
unfortunately, you can't trade them for a bag of baseballs. you might be able to swap for some other team's salary albatross. hope for a navarro-eldred type swap.

I think it is possible that the Sox could trade Konerko for a bag of balls, but they'd have to pay some of his salary each of the next two years. I think its feasible that a team with $ and the need for some pop (Arizona? LA? Anaheim? Baltimore?) might be willing to take him on. Am I completely delusional?

poorme
10-08-2003, 12:47 PM
i think the sox would have to pick up at least 3-4 million of his salary. might be worth it, i don't know. but i would try to avoid selling assets at their lowest value.

hold2dibber
10-08-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by poorme
i think the sox would have to pick up at least 3-4 million of his salary. might be worth it, i don't know. but i would try to avoid selling assets at their lowest value.

Although I generally agree, desperate times call for desperate measures. If dealing PK for nothing meant that the Sox could sign Gordon or Cabrera or someone else useful, that could make all the difference in the world.