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View Full Version : Rosenbloom's plan makes sense to me


mandmandm
10-05-2003, 10:23 AM
If I'm the small-market White Sox, I'm trading Magglio Ordonez and his $14 million salary for pitching and more pitching. Then I'm trying to deal Frank Thomas and hoping I could then find some big leadership from big players in the clubhouse. Then I'm giving Jose Valentin a lovely parting gift. That would be three of the same five heart-of-the-lineup players who have gagged every time people started watching since July 2000. I'd make this the best National League team I could—pitching and defense—and just find contact hitters, not the Sox's usual softball leaguers.


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-031005rosenbloomcolumn,1,1226052.column?coll=cs-columnists

poorme
10-05-2003, 10:51 AM
i agree. obviously this plan is not working. teams built around the long ball might make the playoffs, but they never win the world series. heck, we're not going to the playoffs for a while either. how about a team that entertains the fans? we haven't had one of those since jeff torborg was manager. how about some players that give a d*%n about winning? at least look like you care.

MarkEdward
10-05-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by mandmandm
If I'm the small-market White Sox, I'm trading Magglio Ordonez and his $14 million salary for pitching and more pitching. Then I'm trying to deal Frank Thomas and hoping I could then find some big leadership from big players in the clubhouse. Then I'm giving Jose Valentin a lovely parting gift. That would be three of the same five heart-of-the-lineup players who have gagged every time people started watching since July 2000. I'd make this the best National League team I could—pitching and defense—and just find contact hitters, not the Sox's usual softball leaguers.


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-031005rosenbloomcolumn,1,1226052.column?coll=cs-columnists

So, in essence, we'd be the Los Angeles Dodgers of the AL.

Look how far the Dodgers got this season...

MRKARNO
10-05-2003, 11:31 AM
I'm in favor of making the white sox a lot more pitching dependent, but not to the point where we are getting rid of maggs and frank. I think we need these two and Lee and Konerko are the expendable ones.

soxtalker
10-05-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
If I'm the small-market White Sox, I'm trading Magglio Ordonez and his $14 million salary for pitching and more pitching. Then I'm trying to deal Frank Thomas and hoping I could then find some big leadership from big players in the clubhouse. Then I'm giving Jose Valentin a lovely parting gift. That would be three of the same five heart-of-the-lineup players who have gagged every time people started watching since July 2000. I'd make this the best National League team I could—pitching and defense—and just find contact hitters, not the Sox's usual softball leaguers.


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-031005rosenbloomcolumn,1,1226052.column?coll=cs-columnists

Well, I can't disagree with the general idea, but there may be a few problems in actually accomplishing it. I'm not talking about the issue of finding replacements, though that will be an issue. The Valentine part is probably the easiest, since it doesn't appear that he reached his target that would require the $5M contract. I don't think that Thomas -- who may or may not sign -- can be traded without his permission. Lots of people on this board have talked about dealing Magglio and his $14M salary, but I see no guarantee that the market will be good for players of that salary level. That's no knock against Maggs. It's just that so many teams are intending to cut salary, not raise it.

cornball
10-05-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Well, I can't disagree with the general idea, but there may be a few problems in actually accomplishing it. I'm not talking about the issue of finding replacements, though that will be an issue. The Valentine part is probably the easiest, since it doesn't appear that he reached his target that would require the $5M contract. I don't think that Thomas -- who may or may not sign -- can be traded without his permission. Lots of people on this board have talked about dealing Magglio and his $14M salary, but I see no guarantee that the market will be good for players of that salary level. That's no knock against Maggs. It's just that so many teams are intending to cut salary, not raise it.


In a way, this is what KW has said. It does appear the trend will be to throw more money after top of the rotation pitchers, with the 10-17MM postion players will be few. These playoffs are showing everyone, mediocre teams with a good pitching have a great chance. Most of the games low scoring.

longshot7
10-05-2003, 03:08 PM
National League teams like the Giants, Braves, Cubs, Cards, and Astros?

yeah, they're all pitching and no offense.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2003, 03:33 PM
As a tortured Sox Fan, I'm going to have the epitaph on my tombstone read:

"Here lies PaleHoseGeorge. Spent his entire life listening to Sox Fans claim 'pitching and defense' won 26 championships for the South Side."

For the millionth time, PITCHING wins championships, not pitching AND defense. If you're going to mention something besides pitching, make it pitching and RUN PRODUCTION, not defense. What 8 guys do standing around with gloves on one hand and their thumb up their butt with the other has far less to do with winning championships than what those same 8 guys do for the other half of the game at the dish.

Pitching *IS* defense. Hitting *IS* offense. Glovework is a distant third to both of them.

Count on that asswipe Rosenbloom to perpetuate yet another baseball cliche...

JRIG
10-05-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Count on that asswipe Rosenbloom to perpetrate yet another baseball cliche...

Without Thomas and Ordonez, exactly who does Rosenbloom think will get on base and score runs? Trading away your top two OBP guys is not a smart move.

You can't win scoring zero runs a game.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Without Thomas and Ordonez, exactly who does Rosenbloom think will get on base and score runs? Trading away your top two OBP guys is not a smart move.

You can't win scoring zero runs a game.

Rosenbloom is an idiot. They ought to have him write full-time for the RedEye. He's the perfect fit for that vapid rag.

Nobody ever won a single game of baseball when the opposition scored more runs than you did. Rosenbloom thinks the 8 position players contribute more in the field than they do at the plate.

My God... he gets PAID for the writing this ****...

soxtalker
10-05-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Rosenbloom is an idiot. They ought to have him write full-time for the RedEye. He's the perfect fit for that vapid rag.

Nobody ever won a single game of baseball when the opposition scored more runs than you did. Rosenbloom thinks the 8 position players contribute more in the field than they do at the plate.

My God... he gets PAID for the writing this ****...

While Rosenblum probably has stated this in more detail elsewhere, this was a very short note. He also placed pitching as #1. His frustration with Thomas and Ordonez seems to be centered with more nebulous "leadership" issues. This doesn't take away from your arguments about defense vs. run production.

poorme
10-05-2003, 10:37 PM
bad defense kills good pitching.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by poorme
bad defense kills good pitching.

Bad hitting kills it a whole lot more. Just ask the Braves.

News Flash! The dead-ball era ended 2 years after the Sox won their last championship. That was 1917.

poorme
10-05-2003, 10:51 PM
news flash. the braves are the best hitting team in the league. didn't do them any good. championship teams nearly always have excellent defenses. check the record.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by poorme
news flash. the braves are the best hitting team in the league. didn't do them any good. championship teams nearly always have excellent defenses. check the record.

Could have fooled me this week! Atlanta is the first team to lose a baseball series to a team from Chicago in 86 years--and they can thank their anemic bats for the accomplishment, not the Flubbies' superior glovework.

Sheesh...

TornLabrum
10-05-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Could have fooled me this week! Atlanta is the first team to lose a baseball series to a team from Chicago in 86 years--and they can thank their anemic bats for the accomplishment, not the Flubbies' superior glovework.

Sheesh...

And their anemic bats were caused by superior pitching.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-05-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
And their anemic bats were caused by superior pitching.

EXACTLY. Pitching *IS* defense. By comparison, all the pissing and moaning Kenny Lofton could muster on that trapped flyball didn't count for ****. If Wood isn't dominant, all the superior glovework in the world wouldn't have made the difference. Atlanta would be scoring more runs than the Flubs.

JRIG
10-05-2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by poorme
news flash. the braves are the best hitting team in the league. didn't do them any good. championship teams nearly always have excellent defenses. check the record.

The Yankees won multiple World Series with the horrible (defensively) Jeter at short, Knoblauch at 2nd, a no-range Bernie Williams in center, Jorge Posada, catching, who can't throw to 2nd.. the list goes on and on.

Dan H
10-06-2003, 07:17 AM
Rosenbloom went way too far in his quest for pitching. After all if you trade Maggs, who will play right? But think about it: Loaiza had a career year and can the Sox realistically expect the same next year? If he returns to old form, just what kind of rotation will the Sox have?

I think it is safe to say that a team needs balance to win. And the Sox have demonstrated that hitting over 200 homers a year wins them nothing. The 1977 South Side Hit Men won nothing. If the Sox don't solidfy their rotation and defense, we will be having the same debate next year when the Cubs are in the playoffs and the Sox are sitting at home.

poorme
10-06-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
The Yankees won multiple World Series with the horrible (defensively) Jeter at short, Knoblauch at 2nd, a no-range Bernie Williams in center, Jorge Posada, catching, who can't throw to 2nd.. the list goes on and on.

revisionist history. bernie williams won about five gold gloves. brosius, tino martinez, joe girardi, paul o'neill were all gold glovers, i believe. remember that play that jeter made against the A's a couple of years ago?

the yankees offense went up and down over the years, but the pitching (and defense) were always there.

anaheim was a great defensive team last year.

toronto with devon white, alomar, olerud, sprague, tony fernandez won two in a row.

big red machine goes without saying.

championship teams are good in a facets of the game. you can't slug yourself to a championship. and you can't win one with a $50 million payroll.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-06-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by poorme
....championship teams are good in a facets of the game. you can't slug yourself to a championship. and you can't win one with a $50 million payroll.

Just so we're clear on this very important point, nobody (least of all me) is disputing that pitching wins championships. It is the single-most important element to any team's winning efforts, especially during the postseason. The only dispute here is over the relative value of DEFENSE compared with offensive production.

What Rosenbloom did was spout the usual cliche (so fondly clinged to by Sox Fans) about "pitching and defense" winning championships. If you've already specified pitching (and he did), then "defense" becomes the 8 other guys on the field besides the pitcher. It is just FLAT WRONG that those 8 guys can ever do more in the field than they can at the plate to win games. It's insanity to even dispute this.

You win games by scoring more runs than your opponent. Superior pitching can't do this by itself. If the 8 guys standing around the pitcher are great glovemen--but can't hit--the team loses. Nobody ever won a game when they didn't score. Capisce?

If we Sox Fans ever want to win something significant--like a world championship, for example--we had better start talking about "pitching and offensive production" winning championships, not "pitching and defense."

You want championships? Follow the Yankee model, not the Go-Go model. There is a reason they were named the Bronx Bombers. Given the real history of these two franchises, you would think this was obvious. But we keep having to have this history lesson every few months because ****ing morons like Steve Rosenbloom keep spouting nonsense about how to win championships.

Give up the ghost of the dead-ball era. It's over, and it's not coming back.

soxruleEP
10-06-2003, 10:01 AM
I am with George on this--position player defense is the most over rated part of the game. You can't have nine butchers out there, but average defense and great pitching is the BEST defense there is.

Dan H
10-06-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
I am with George on this--position player defense is the most over rated part of the game. You can't have nine butchers out there, but average defense and great pitching is the BEST defense there is.

The key phrase here, soxrule, is great pitching. The Sox don't have great pitching. They have three good starters and since they are not dominant like a Wood or Prior, defense becomes more important. You can't give the opposition extra outs when your pitching isn't capable of shutting someone completely down.

The Yankees are great examples of teams that won with great hitting. But the Oakland A's won three in the '70's partly because they never beat themselves. They played smart baseball in addition to having Reggie Jackson and other big hitters. The Sox don't play smart baseball. Their homers didn't save them from thmselves.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-06-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Dan H
The key phrase here, soxrule, is great pitching. The Sox don't have great pitching. They have three good starters and since they are not dominant like a Wood or Prior, defense becomes more important. You can't give the opposition extra outs when your pitching isn't capable of shutting someone completely down.

The Yankees are great examples of teams that won with great hitting. But the Oakland A's won three in the '70's partly because they never beat themselves. They played smart baseball in addition to having Reggie Jackson and other big hitters. The Sox don't play smart baseball. Their homers didn't save them from thmselves.

I would tend to agree with this if the point of Rosenbloom's comments was getting more pitching and guys who got on base or didn't ground into double-plays. That is not what he said. Instead Rosenbloom wants to get rid of the two highest OPS guys on the team (apparently because they don't bring the proper "leadership" to the team--figure that one out) and get more glovemen. This is a prescription for disaster. The guy is a moron.

You know who the two worst rally killers are? Paul Konerko and Magglio Ordonez, not because of their leadership skills but because they ground into double-plays. Carlos Lee's production looks a bit suspicious too, because he isn't half as good a hitter when not given the benefit of seeing good pitches in the #2 hole. Even Mike Caruso can squeezed out a .306 BA hitting there.

The younger Sox hitters (Konerko, Maggs, and Lee) need to learn situational hitting, especially learning to take walks and avoid DP's. They could learn a lot from Frank Thomas, but the ex-manager did everything he could to disparage the value his best hitter brought to the team. Now six years later, the lack of plate discipline has turned the Sox into a flat-footed power team. That's Manuel's fault more than anything else.

DonkeyKongerko
10-06-2003, 11:44 AM
My question is how did the small ball 1998 Jerry Manuel of the National League become the Joe Torre big ball American League style manager in just six seasons?

Did the successful (fluke) season of 2000 when many players had career years change his philosophy that much? Or was it more a product of ownership becoming convinced that a team can win consistently with that style offense?

mandmandm
10-06-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

They could learn a lot from Frank Thomas, but the ex-manager did everything he could to disparage the value his best hitter brought to the team.

I wonder if Frank will be the full time first baseman assuming he comes back next year. Manuel ignored his DH vs. 1st base hitting stats for years for God knows why. I would bet KW will try to move Konerko but even if he can not Frank should be at first.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2003, 01:49 PM
It's my opinion that part of the reason the Sox turned into a beer league softball style team is because in a relative sense hitters are far more cheaper today then good pitchers.

Kenny Williams made a comment a few years ago (and I'm paraphrasing here) where he stated that some of the Sox young pitchers better come through because the team can't afford to spend 50 million dollars like the Yankees to buy a pitching staff.

with that in mind the simple economic fact is that today you can get four of five good hitters for a smaller amount of money. To go out and get four top pitchers you're going to have to spend a fortune.

That and the fact that Jerry Reinsdorf refuses to offer long term guaranteed contracts to pitchers left the Sox with little other options.

Just my opinion.

Lip

Herbal
10-06-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
You win games by scoring more runs than your opponent. Superior pitching can't do this by itself. If the 8 guys standing around the pitcher are great glovemen--but can't hit--the team loses. Nobody ever won a game when they didn't score. Capisce?

Makes sense to me. Think about a top notch rotation with the equivalent of 8 of this guy behind him.

:hitless

Brings chills to my spine.

Dadawg_77
10-06-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
It's my opinion that part of the reason the Sox turned into a beer league softball style team is because in a relative sense hitters are far more cheaper today then good pitchers.

Kenny Williams made a comment a few years ago (and I'm paraphrasing here) where he stated that some of the Sox young pitchers better come through because the team can't afford to spend 50 million dollars like the Yankees to buy a pitching staff.

with that in mind the simple economic fact is that today you can get four of five good hitters for a smaller amount of money. To go out and get four top pitchers you're going to have to spend a fortune.

That and the fact that Jerry Reinsdorf refuses to offer long term guaranteed contracts to pitchers left the Sox with little other options.

Just my opinion.

Lip

Lip the thing is you don't need to spend 50 million to get go pitching. Plus getting all your pitchers through FA and trading for veterans is a very inefficient method of building a pitching staff. Draft good College pitchers, trade for good young pitching prospects, take measures to avoid injuries and your system could start producing solid pitching to help the big league club out. The White Sox haven't done that yet.

jabrch
10-06-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I'm in favor of making the white sox a lot more pitching dependent, but not to the point where we are getting rid of maggs and frank. I think we need these two and Lee and Konerko are the expendable ones.

You can't get anything for Konerko and Lee's contract is not big enough to make a difference. We can't have our cake and eat it too. If we are trading/releasing people, it will have to be Mags and Frank.

Mags is 14 and Frank, assuming he doesn't take his option is 8+2mm buyout=10mm. Right?

voodoochile
10-06-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
You can't get anything for Konerko and Lee's contract is not big enough to make a difference. We can't have our cake and eat it too. If we are trading/releasing people, it will have to be Mags and Frank.

Mags is 14 and Frank, assuming he doesn't take his option is 8+2mm buyout=10mm. Right?

No, Frank doesn't pay the $2M unless he turns down his option and then the Sox decide to exercize their option and Frank decides he'd RATHER be a FA. Then and ONLY then does he have to pay the $2M as a buyout to get out of the contract. Frank wouldn't do that as he'd have to get a guaranteed $10M contract to make up the difference. In light of recent comments from KW, I expect Frank to just take his option, so you might as well stop counting on that money.

RichH55
10-07-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
As a tortured Sox Fan, I'm going to have the epitaph on my tombstone read:

"Here lies PaleHoseGeorge. Spent his entire life listening to Sox Fans claim 'pitching and defense' won 26 championships for the South Side."

For the millionth time, PITCHING wins championships, not pitching AND defense. If you're going to mention something besides pitching, make it pitching and RUN PRODUCTION, not defense. What 8 guys do standing around with gloves on one hand and their thumb up their butt with the other has far less to do with winning championships than what those same 8 guys do for the other half of the game at the dish.

Pitching *IS* defense. Hitting *IS* offense. Glovework is a distant third to both of them.

Count on that asswipe Rosenbloom to perpetuate yet another baseball cliche...

For Further proof see Tony Womack World Series Winning SS

Deadguy
10-07-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
I wonder if Frank will be the full time first baseman assuming he comes back next year. Manuel ignored his DH vs. 1st base hitting stats for years for God knows why. I would bet KW will try to move Konerko but even if he can not Frank should be at first.

Check out what Frank had to say back in August in this article about DHs and the Hall of Fame:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/bb/2051318

Thomas is aware of the DH bias.

"I don't worry about that," he said. "I played 10 solid years in the field and I still can play in the field. I played it this year, and I'm sure I will in the future. I'm not going to be limited to DHing the rest of my career. I think that will be addressed by the end of this year.

"I would definitely like to play more in the field. I don't think that was a problem earlier. I'm the best fit for the DH right now, but you just never know what the future holds."

Looks like Frank was prognosticating about the firing of Jerry Manuel, the White Sox trading Paul Konerko, or moving on to another team.

Paul Konerko getting traded is a must for Frank to be returned to 1st Base on a pemanent basis. It will be hard for the Sox to justify having Konerko as a mediocre hitting DH, while raking in 8 million dollars. It's much easier for them to stick Konerko at 1st base, and say, "Hey, at least he can field his position, so that justifies his salary".

It's much easier to justify giving Frank 6-8 million as a DH, since he can easilly be the best DH in the league.

Getting rid of Konerko, and moving Thomas to 1st base on a permanent basis would be the best thing the Sox could do at this point. Thomas making 8 million as a DH is just fair market value for him, but moving him to 1st base at his salary makes him a bargain, since he can put up Jason Giambi and Jim Thome like numbers, at half the price. Then we can spend 1 to 2 million on a DH, who could easilly put up the same numbers as Konerko did in 2003.

It sadly won't happen though, since Konerko limped to the finish line in a 3 for 48 slump, making him even less desirable as trade bait.

mandmandm
10-07-2003, 01:59 PM
What about a garbage for garbage deal? Any overpaid underachieving shortstops out there that we can get our hands on for Konerko?

RichH55
10-07-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Check out what Frank had to say back in August in this article about DHs and the Hall of Fame:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/bb/2051318

Thomas is aware of the DH bias.

"I don't worry about that," he said. "I played 10 solid years in the field and I still can play in the field. I played it this year, and I'm sure I will in the future. I'm not going to be limited to DHing the rest of my career. I think that will be addressed by the end of this year.

"I would definitely like to play more in the field. I don't think that was a problem earlier. I'm the best fit for the DH right now, but you just never know what the future holds."

Looks like Frank was prognosticating about the firing of Jerry Manuel, the White Sox trading Paul Konerko, or moving on to another team.

Paul Konerko getting traded is a must for Frank to be returned to 1st Base on a pemanent basis. It will be hard for the Sox to justify having Konerko as a mediocre hitting DH, while raking in 8 million dollars. It's much easier for them to stick Konerko at 1st base, and say, "Hey, at least he can field his position, so that justifies his salary".

It's much easier to justify giving Frank 6-8 million as a DH, since he can easilly be the best DH in the league.

Getting rid of Konerko, and moving Thomas to 1st base on a permanent basis would be the best thing the Sox could do at this point. Thomas making 8 million as a DH is just fair market value for him, but moving him to 1st base at his salary makes him a bargain, since he can put up Jason Giambi and Jim Thome like numbers, at half the price. Then we can spend 1 to 2 million on a DH, who could easilly put up the same numbers as Konerko did in 2003.

It sadly won't happen though, since Konerko limped to the finish line in a 3 for 48 slump, making him even less desirable as trade bait.



Agreed that moving Konerko and putting Frank at 1B is the best option


But I dont agree that keeping Konerko and playing Frank at 1B is a mutually exclusive option

I think running Paulie out there every day was a product of JM, I dont think you have to go deeper than that.

What matters is Frank's numbers, not Frank's number relative to other DHs or 1Bs. I think the new manager will play Frank more at 1B, if only for psycho-somatic reasons

RichH55
10-07-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Agreed that moving Konerko and putting Frank at 1B is the best option


But I dont agree that keeping Konerko and playing Frank at 1B is a mutually exclusive option

I think running Paulie out there every day was a product of JM, I dont think you have to go deeper than that.

What matters is Frank's numbers, not Frank's number relative to other DHs or 1Bs. I think the new manager will play Frank more at 1B, if only for psycho-somatic reasons

Actually I take back that best case scenario......

Best Case is that Paul goes back to his .850 OPS self, but also goes back to catching (Yes pipedream time)