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View Full Version : Our Long Nightmare Continues


Dan H
10-04-2003, 06:33 AM
It is pretty obvious now that the Braves are toast, and the Cubs are for real. I happen to think the Giants and Marlins are toast, too and they just don't know it yet.

I don't like the sentiment of not being a Sox fan because the Cubs are going to the World Series. However, if the Sox expect to compete in this city, and keep fan loyalty, the old ways will not do.

Look at the managers the Sox are considering. Cito Gaston, who has been described as a Jerry Manuel type, and Ozzie Guillen, who has never managed a day in his life. Hiring either of these two men does nothing for me and only convinces me the Sox aren't serious enough about winning.

Other speculation centers around the possibility Colon not returning. Maybe Colon is being greedy, but did the Sox really think they were going to keep him more than one year?

The philosophy behind the White Flag Trade hasn't worked. I don't believe in just throwing money at players. Many teams with big payrolls haven't won. But the Sox can't cry budget when the Cubs have success like this. It does matter what the Cubs do. I have become resigned to their success. What I have a real hard time with is Sox plodding through year after year without post season play. If there was ever a time to do something dramatic, it is this off season. If Jerry Reinsdorf really wants to win, let's see him prove it. Or will he enjoy all the non-stop adulation the Cubs are going to get while he seems to be satisfied with win totals in the mid '80's? Does he want more empty blue seats?

white sox bill
10-04-2003, 07:55 AM
Dan,

Your right, bur OUR payroll was approx $55 million, thiers was approx. $90 million. On paper, considering they got only 2 more wins than us, WE got more bang for our buck.

Off paper, THEY are still playing, while WE are watching.
Bill

soxtalker
10-04-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Dan H
The philosophy behind the White Flag Trade hasn't worked. I don't believe in just throwing money at players. Many teams with big payrolls haven't won. But the Sox can't cry budget when the Cubs have success like this. It does matter what the Cubs do. I have become resigned to their success. What I have a real hard time with is Sox plodding through year after year without post season play. If there was ever a time to do something dramatic, it is this off season. If Jerry Reinsdorf really wants to win, let's see him prove it. Or will he enjoy all the non-stop adulation the Cubs are going to get while he seems to be satisfied with win totals in the mid '80's? Does he want more empty blue seats?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "philosophy of the white flag trade". If you mean that you can be aggressive and change a team in mid-season, then, sure, KW showed what could be done instead of folding. However, if you mean that you can't grow largely from the farm system, I think that you're wrong. Yes, the Cubs made some mid-season veteran acquisitions that really helped them. But they are riding high on the arms of several very young pitchers. From what I can tell, the Sox largely abandoned that approach when KW replaced RS. BA's evaluation of minor league systems is not perfect, but it is worth noting that the Sox position plummeted while that of the Cubs stayed pretty high.

harwar
10-04-2003, 09:54 AM
and i'll tell ya what else we got to look forward to..the cubs may be winners for years to come just like the braves were a joke for so long and then BOOM.. they win the division everyyear for over a decade.Prior looks to be a combination of greg maddux and kevin brown.I just don't see how we can compete with them,i mean it seems EVERYONE is a stinkin cub fan now.

Lip Man 1
10-04-2003, 11:46 AM
For what it's worth:

I sent out an e-mail to a number of media contacts that I have, telling them about the discussions that have been going on at WSI concerning how the Cubs success will effect the Sox franchise.

I grouped the discussion into two areas.

Those that feel if the Cubs get to a World Series the Sox may as well call Mayflower Movers and head off to Birmingham, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City or Mexico City.

and those who feel that the Cubs in a World Series would be the greatest thing to ever happen to the Sox because it would force Jerry Reinsdorf to raise the bar, either massively increase payroll in order to give the Sox a realistic shot at the World Series, or put the team up for sale.

I suggested that the Cubs success would be a great story from the Sox point of view.

Personally I'd love to do a story like this but do not have the high level contacts in either MLB or the Sox who could give opinions on the future.

It's my hope that one of the Chicago newspaper folks will.

Lip

soxtalker
10-04-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
For what it's worth:

I sent out an e-mail to a number of media contacts that I have, telling them about the discussions that have been going on at WSI concerning how the Cubs success will effect the Sox franchise.

I grouped the discussion into two areas.

Those that feel if the Cubs get to a World Series the Sox may as well call Mayflower Movers and head off to Birmingham, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City or Mexico City.

and those who feel that the Cubs in a World Series would be the greatest thing to ever happen to the Sox because it would force Jerry Reinsdorf to raise the bar, either massively increase payroll in order to give the Sox a realistic shot at the World Series, or put the team up for sale.

I suggested that the Cubs success would be a great story from the Sox point of view.

Personally I'd love to do a story like this but do not have the high level contacts in either MLB or the Sox who could give opinions on the future.

It's my hope that one of the Chicago newspaper folks will.

Lip

Terrific idea! While the newspaper folks are probably a bit distracted now with the Cubs, I would imagine that this will be a great opportunity for them during the long winter months -- particularly as we approach Soxfest.

pudge
10-04-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Terrific idea! While the newspaper folks are probably a bit distracted now with the Cubs, I would imagine that this will be a great opportunity for them during the long winter months -- particularly as we approach Soxfest.

You can bet there will be plenty of stories about "How will the Sox respond to Cubs winning series?" if that happens.

But let's not have everyone writing the Cubs in the series yet...

a) If the Braves can force a final game, they've seen Kerry Wood once already, they'll do better the second time

b) The Giants are rallying against the Fish... if they make it, San Fran can easily beat the Flubs...

soxtalker
10-04-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by pudge
You can bet there will be plenty of stories about "How will the Sox respond to Cubs winning series?" if that happens.

But let's not have everyone writing the Cubs in the series yet...

a) If the Braves can force a final game, they've seen Kerry Wood once already, they'll do better the second time

b) The Giants are rallying against the Fish... if they make it, San Fran can easily beat the Flubs...

Let's hope that Lip's messages to the media motivate them to explore the issue even if the Cubs don't win another game. It's still a great topic for the media to delve into.

Dan H
10-05-2003, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "philosophy of the white flag trade". If you mean that you can be aggressive and change a team in mid-season, then, sure, KW showed what could be done instead of folding. However, if you mean that you can't grow largely from the farm system, I think that you're wrong. Yes, the Cubs made some mid-season veteran acquisitions that really helped them. But they are riding high on the arms of several very young pitchers. From what I can tell, the Sox largely abandoned that approach when KW replaced RS. BA's evaluation of minor league systems is not perfect, but it is worth noting that the Sox position plummeted while that of the Cubs stayed pretty high.

No, I think a strong farm system is key to any organization. What I mean by the White Flag philosophy is that the Sox thought they could cheap their way to success. Going strictly young, paying cheap and hope for big results. It worked to a point with the success in 2000. Problem is talented rookies become seasoned veterans and they want to be paid as such. Secondly, they Sox didn't even develp a pitching staff through the youth movement. They have had to make outside pick ups to bolster their staff.

The team needs a solid leader to turn things around. But the names being thrown around includes a guy who hasn't managed in two years and another guy who has not managed at all. The price tag for either one won't be high.

Next year will mark the 10th anniversary of the strike. I think it is about time this team spends money to make it.

Chicago Derby
10-05-2003, 04:09 PM
Some great points made here, but I guess I'm too black and white about it:

Forget what the Cubs end up doing this year (I hope to be smiling in about six hours).

Let's clean house-KW, and yes, JR...he's had way to many chances to show he's serious about winning, and I don't believe him for a second. That get-the-fan-butts-in-then-we-put-a-winning-team-out shows his greedy nature flat out.

GO SOX

GO BRAVES!!!!!!!!! I don't want to start fights tomorrow at work!

Chicago Derby

soxtalker
10-05-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Dan H
No, I think a strong farm system is key to any organization.
...
Secondly, they Sox didn't even develp a pitching staff through the youth movement. They have had to make outside pick ups to bolster their staff.
...

I'd love to see a detailed analysis of why the Sox did not succeed with the youth movement after the White Flag trade. Most of what I've heard has been that you simply can't win this way. While that line of criticism clearly has its place, I actually think that the Sox squandered a golden opportunity with all those young players. Yes, I know that prospects are a risk and don't necessarily work out. But I have this nagging suspicion that (a) we made poor choices, (b) did a poor job of nurturing them, and/or (c) gave some away in poor trades.