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Lip Man 1
10-03-2003, 10:49 AM
In addition to the first indication that Bartolo Colon will not be back with the Sox in 2004 in Friday's Daily Southtown is a second story that quotes Mark Buehrle as revealing something that was discussed here at WSI for months.

Pale Hose George among others, stated that they thought there were differences between a number of players and the late Manager Gandhi. George also said that he thought the differences were on going and didn't just suddenly 'pop up' when there was a controversy.

In this story Buehrle is quoted as saying that "several" starting pitchers had disagreements with Gandhi and that Gandhi may have cost the Sox "five games" or so with his decisions.

In fairness Buehrle also stated that while Gandhi cost the Sox a few games the players cost 95% of the others. he also stated that the players never lost "respect" with Gandhi.

Lip

idseer
10-03-2003, 10:56 AM
yes well ... who ELSE could have caused the other %95 of the losses?

imo i still think jm cost us more like 10 games.

Hangar18
10-03-2003, 10:59 AM
IDSeer, I also believe 10 Games is what Manuel cost us.
The Players cost us that Sweep with Detroit

kermittheefrog
10-03-2003, 11:04 AM
The thing is I feel like Jerry once handled his pitching staff very well and was once an effective manager. Only with each passing season he got worse at everything. It's almost inexplicable. Maybe he started to lose confidence in what he was doing and thought he needed to change to keep his job. Who knows.

voodoochile
10-03-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The thing is I feel like Jerry once handled his pitching staff very well and was once an effective manager. Only with each passing season he got worse at everything. It's almost inexplicable. Maybe he started to lose confidence in what he was doing and thought he needed to change to keep his job. Who knows.

I think Jerry is a really nice guy and he had no idea how to motivate the millionaire players. He had one trick - bag on the veterans who were wealthy and get the young studs behind him to play hard. When the team became filled with wealthy veterans, he was lost and hopeless.

Irishsox1
10-03-2003, 12:04 PM
Whom do you blame for two 1 to 0 lossess to Detroit with Loaiza pitching?....I'll blame Konerko before I blame Manual. Mark Burhele is a loud mouth and a big pain in the butt.

hold2dibber
10-03-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
Whom do you blame for two 1 to 0 lossess to Detroit with Loaiza pitching?....I'll blame Konerko before I blame Manual. Mark Burhele is a loud mouth and a big pain in the butt.

I blame the manager and the players equally for those losses. The fact is, JM never got this team playing with any sense of urgency or focus. If they were out there playing with focus, determination, and motivation, they would have spanked Detroit all year long. And Jerry has to get his players to play with focus, determination and motivation - that's his job.

thepaulbowski
10-03-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
Whom do you blame for two 1 to 0 lossess to Detroit with Loaiza pitching?....I'll blame Konerko before I blame Manual. Mark Burhele is a loud mouth and a big pain in the butt.

I believe you can blame the whole Sox offense on many ocassions.

I don't think think Buehrle is a loud mouth or a pain. Remember he was the one who up his last start, in an arbitration year, so Loaiza could try to get the strikeouts & the win. He has put his foot in his mouth a few times, but he seems to be a pretty good team player.

34 Inch Stick
10-03-2003, 12:44 PM
Did Buhrle happen to mention how many games HE cost the Sox in the first half of the season. He had several outings where he gave the team absolutely no chance to win.

I like Mark. I think he is a team player and an OK guy. I want him to be a Sox for the rest of his career. However, I will show him no loyalty or give him any benefit of the doubt until he signs a long term deal with the Sox.

In my mind he is a 2 year rent a player.

jabrch
10-03-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
IDSeer, I also believe 10 Games is what Manuel cost us.
The Players cost us that Sweep with Detroit


And the players cost us 5 vs Minnesota in September.

chisoxt
10-03-2003, 01:58 PM
Generally, when a player is offered a huge contract that is to his liking, he signs it in short order. This has dragged on too long for anything positive to happen.

Colon is a "Gone Goose'. I'd use the money for other things

soxtalker
10-03-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt
Generally, when a player is offered a huge contract that is to his liking, he signs it in short order. This has dragged on too long for anything positive to happen.

Colon is a "Gone Goose'. I'd use the money for other things

Is Buerhle?

34 Inch Stick
10-03-2003, 02:55 PM
Does he need to tell the St. Louis media one more time for it to be believable? As soon as he is in controll of the situation he will do his best to be a Cardinal. I hope we are smart enough to understand this, use him for our purposes and then accomodate him while he still has value.

To tell you the truth this would be a good year to approach the Cards about him. They are desperate for pitching, they had a disappointing season and their ace had a down year (sounds familiar).

Here is a question: Do you think Buhrle for Morris straight up is a fair deal?

soxtalker
10-03-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Does he need to tell the St. Louis media one more time for it to be believable? As soon as he is in controll of the situation he will do his best to be a Cardinal. I hope we are smart enough to understand this, use him for our purposes and then accomodate him while he still has value.

To tell you the truth this would be a good year to approach the Cards about him. They are desperate for pitching, they had a disappointing season and their ace had a down year (sounds familiar).

Here is a question: Do you think Buhrle for Morris straight up is a fair deal?

I don't know the Cardinals players too well, but I did take a quick look at his stats. If the Cardinals are so desperate for pitching, why would they part with Morris? On our side, his 2003 salary is $10.5 million. That seems like a big chunk for KW to swallow, considering that he is really pushing things with the Colon offer.
Is there a position player that we might like to get from them? Plus let's get a few minor leaguers (though the Cardinals don't have the deepest system, as I recall, based upon what BA says).

jeremyb1
10-03-2003, 04:14 PM
To clarify, Buehrle said a few losses not five. Also, I think it should be noted that for the most part starting pitchers are always going to want to be left in a game. The manager, the pitching coach, and the trainer are responsible for looking out for a pitcher's health. Pitchers aren't paid to be aware of the potential effects of pitching too much on their arms. While I agree there were a few times JM pulled starters too early - Garland in particular - I feel the majority of his mistakes handling the staff came with his use of relievers. Someone like Buehrle is a gamer and will always want to pitch longer but just because he's the pitcher that doesn't mean he's right and the manager's wrong. Manuel did a good job protecting our pitchers' health and while I'm not sure someone like Buehrle appretiates that, I certainly do.

Randar68
10-03-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Manuel did a good job protecting our pitchers' health and while I'm not sure someone like Buehrle appretiates that, I certainly do.

Well, since the departure of Nardi, this is true. I don't know if it's Coop or Manuel, but I'm guessing it was Coop.

Cubs fans will be cursing Baker for years in about 2 years when Zambrano, Clement, and Wood all blow their arms up (again, in some cases)

jeremyb1
10-04-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Well, since the departure of Nardi, this is true. I don't know if it's Coop or Manuel, but I'm guessing it was Coop.

Cubs fans will be cursing Baker for years in about 2 years when Zambrano, Clement, and Wood all blow their arms up (again, in some cases)

Under Nardi and Coop, Manuel has regulated pitch counts pretty well. As the manager and not the pitching coach that's about as much as he can do to control the (starting) pitchers' health. He doesn't really control pitcher's mechanics or throwing routines.