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basilesox
10-01-2003, 09:19 PM
Does anybody know if Jose Valentin will be coming back? I know he had a poor year from an average perspective, but his power for a SS is phenomenal. He also played much better at SS this year. He has great range at SS as well. I always wondered why he didnt just bat lefty all of the time, because he hits so poorly from the right side. I guess it might be too late in his career for him to change now. Even that withstanding, I think we should bring him back. He will take a paycut and he is a clubhouse leader that we will miss dearly.

doublem23
10-01-2003, 09:46 PM
Personally I'd love to see Manos come back as a baserunning/third base coach. He's one of the smarter baserunners, IMO, and that's something the Sox really need a lesson on.

That, and I'd like to see Sandy Alomar, Jr. come back as a coach.

soxtalker
10-01-2003, 09:47 PM
A lot depends on what sort of deals KW can pull off. If he can get a younger SS with better OBP, I think that we'll have to look at Valentin as a back-up or let him sign elsewhere. But I doubt that SS is near the top of KW's priority list.

dllrbll7
10-01-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Personally I'd love to see Manos come back as a baserunning/third base coach. He's one of the smarter baserunners, IMO, and that's something the Sox really need a lesson on.

That, and I'd like to see Sandy Alomar, Jr. come back as a coach.

I second the Sandy Alomar as a coach thing. I still like Jose playing though

MHOUSE
10-01-2003, 10:37 PM
I'd like to see Manos and Sandy over Santana or Kimm. Them plus Coop, Walk, and Nosseck would be a great coaching staff!

LuvSox
10-02-2003, 09:09 AM
Although 28 HR's is hard to overlook, his glove hasn't improved all that much. His BA is hovering at Konerko level. Being a fan favorite, his best spot next year may well be 3rd base coach.

RichH55
10-02-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by LuvSox
Although 28 HR's is hard to overlook, his glove hasn't improved all that much. His BA is hovering at Konerko level. Being a fan favorite, his best spot next year may well be 3rd base coach.

He isn't ready to retire....his numbers suggest he can still play.....any talk of coaching is premature at best and foolish at worst

longwood
10-02-2003, 12:57 PM
I like Jose as he is one of the club house leaders that has the ability to spark the club. However, as he is getting older, I think that the winter ball has affected his summer performance over the past couple of years.

He (along with many other teamates) has shown the disturbing tendancy to swing for the fences rather than driving the ball. Obviously his average shows it.

In terms of his fielding, I agree that he's shown improvement over last year. This is probably due to him being fixed in the SS position rather than platooning at 3rd, lf etc...
I haven't looked back at the stats, but my guess is that his fielding percentage is pretty similiar to what he was 3-4 years ago. Still, no better than average. Also, I think that Robby contributed played a significant role in Jose stepping up his game.

I think he's worth keeping for another year as long as he doesn't play in the off season.

LuvSox
10-02-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
any talk of coaching is premature at best and foolish at worst


I'll take premature. :D: What I think I was trying to say is the Sox can do better at that position, they NEED to do better. Jose is such a fan favorite, it would be hard not to have him around, in any capacity.

LASOXFAN
10-02-2003, 01:41 PM
I can't believe there is so much affection for a guy who hits .230, can't hit in the clutch, and makes bad errors at key times in the game.

I HOPE HE GONE!!

hold2dibber
10-02-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
I can't believe there is so much affection for a guy who hits .230, can't hit in the clutch, and makes bad errors at key times in the game.

I HOPE HE GONE!!

What team have you been watching? Over the las few years, Jose has probably been the best clutch hitter the Sox have had. And one of the things that has always amazed me is how infrequently his errors hurt the Sox. That was true this year as well (as is the fact that his errors were WAY down).

With that said, I'd like to see him back only if KW can't do better. I'd love to see a high OBP SS with a slick glove. But those aren't exactly growing on trees.

maurice
10-02-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Over the las few years, Jose has probably been the best clutch hitter the Sox have had.

.229 AVE w/ RISP and .173 AVE w/ RIPS + 2 outs in 2003. You are correct that, in past years, he was much better than that. It doesn't help that opposing managers can neutralize him late in games simply by calling for a lefty.

And one of the things that has always amazed me is how infrequently his errors hurt the Sox. That was true this year as well (as is the fact that his errors were WAY down).

Assuming the oft-stated "his errors didn't hurt us" argument is true (which I doubt), I'm not sure that we should give him too much credit for simple dumb luck. His 20 errors in 2003 were pretty consistent with his career numbers, excluding his brutal 2000 and 1996 campaigns. His defense was improved at times in 2003 (particularly right after the Alomar trade) but was still bad for most of the season. He's not likely to improve at this stage of his career. On the contrary, his range (for example) certainly will continue to decline.

With that said, I'd like to see him back only if KW can't do better. I'd love to see a high OBP SS with a slick glove. But those aren't exactly growing on trees.

Agreed 100%.

SoxxoS
10-02-2003, 03:33 PM
One more thing.

He needs to hit lefty 100% of the time. The switch hitting isn't working out when the opposing manager will make you hit right handed late in games every chance he gets.

I mean I realize he has probably been switch hitting all his life, but that doesn't mean it's right.

I just don't understand.

soxtalker
10-02-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
I can't believe there is so much affection for a guy who hits .230, can't hit in the clutch, and makes bad errors at key times in the game.

I HOPE HE GONE!!

I understand the affection. His enthusiasm and contributions in past years (particularly 2000) have been appreciated. But I also think that it is time to move on. His numbers weren't that good this past year, and it seems clear that he's nearing the end of his career.

GoSox2K3
10-02-2003, 05:12 PM
If we get rid of Valentin, then who will replace him?

Regarding both Valentin and R. Alomar, there are certainly better players out there - but are there any players available that the Sox can realistically get within the constraints of Reinsdorf's budget? Getting Tejada is just a pipe dream.

Are any minor leaguers ready to play at a level better than Valentin or Alomar? I don't want to get rid of these guys and then get stuck next year with Willie Harris hitting .190 as our only option.

Chisoxfn
10-02-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
If we get rid of Valentin, then who will replace him?

Regarding both Valentin and R. Alomar, there are certainly better players out there - but are there any players available that the Sox can realistically get within the constraints of Reinsdorf's budget? Getting Tejada is just a pipe dream.

Are any minor leaguers ready to play at a level better than Valentin or Alomar? I don't want to get rid of these guys and then get stuck next year with Willie Harris hitting .190 as our only option.

Todd Walker and Luis Castillo are out there at second. While Caberra, Aurilla, Matsui, Tejada are all out there at shortstop. Christian Guzman will likely be out there as well (Twins have hinted at this).

There are some other solid candidates too. This is supposed to be soft market and when teams get into bidding wars over Tejada/Matsui the Sox can quietly go in and grab one of the other very solid shortstops and have an immediate upgrade. We all know I'm for Cabrerra cause he would bring great speed, gap power, and a solid obp (At least he was last year and with Maggs, etc in front of him, he should get pitches to hit). Next with Castillo you get one of the best leadoff hitters in the game and now the Sox can have tow guys that can fly on in front of the big bats.

Not saying it will happen, but if you find a way to move Koch/Konerko or even one of them...you could bring this two in, bring back Colon and two relievers (Sully or Gordon or replacements for them) and keep the payroll at a reasonable level. If you move both of them...it would be possible with more ease. The Sox can then afford to have Reed/Rowand in center and I'd look no further then Scott Spiezo to play first. I know he doesn't have the best production but he is the best defensive first baseman in the American league and is a leader. He's also a switch hitter and is a very good situational hitter, which is more of what the Sox need.

Very quickly the Sox keep power (Carlos, Maggs, Frank, Crede) yet add speed Castillo/Cabrerra and a situational hitter to replace Konehead (Spiezo). You also improve defensive with Reed/Rowand...although Everetts bat will be a loss. Still...Reed and Rowand can also do the little things.

Now you have an offense with two potential holes..your cf and Olivo. The rest of the way your very solid and both your holes are good defensive players and can help in other ways.

If the Sox are worrisome of the outfield...then Mike Cameron will likely be out there for cheap. I'd prefer giving one of the young guys a shot. As far as the 5th..think cheap vet or Show.

Daver
10-02-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3


Are any minor leaguers ready to play at a level better than Valentin or Alomar? I don't want to get rid of these guys and then get stuck next year with Willie Harris hitting .190 as our only option.

At SS the closest thing the Sox have is Angel Gonzalez,a low average hitter that does not amaze anyone with his glove.

AT second there is Willie Harris and his lack of stick to go along with his erratic defense,or Aaron Miles,with his not so good defense and a bat that matches it.

GoSox2K3
10-02-2003, 05:57 PM
Thanks for the info!

I'm in favor of upgrading at SS or 2B if it really is an upgrade and won't hamstring the Sox budget. I'm still trying to forget the Sox last attempt to "upgrade" at SS (get rid of Valentin in favor of Royce Clayton).

I doubt that we'll be able to unload Konerko or Koch. Our only hope is that some GM gives us the same sort of gift trade that Danny Evans gave to the Cubs when he traded for Hundley. Realistically, I expect that we'll be stuck with them.

hold2dibber
10-02-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by maurice
.Assuming the oft-stated "his errors didn't hurt us" argument is true (which I doubt), I'm not sure that we should give him too much credit for simple dumb luck.

I acknowledge that the "his errors didn't hurt us" argument is entirely anecdotal (and therefore, quite possibly, wrong) - however, I was responding to someone who said that Jose "makes bad errors at key times in the game". I'm not sure what "bad errors" are, but I certainly don't buy that argument, as I have not noticed (again, anecdotal, I know) Jose making critical errors (like I noticed Jimenez making critical errors).

In any event, the Sox don't have any ready replacements in the organization and Jose should be cheap. I wouldn't mind him coming back, but I'm certainly not against them looking around first.

hold2dibber
10-02-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
One more thing.

He needs to hit lefty 100% of the time. The switch hitting isn't working out when the opposing manager will make you hit right handed late in games every chance he gets.

I mean I realize he has probably been switch hitting all his life, but that doesn't mean it's right.

I just don't understand.

Well, he only hits left handed against right handed pitchers. To simply assume that he would fare as well against left handed pitchers while hitting left handed doesn't seem well-founded, IMHO. If Jose comes back, they have to bring Graffy back, too, because he absolutely murders left handed pitching. But the manager has to substitute Graffinino EVERY time when a lefty is pitching for the other team. Jose shouldn't face a single lefty all year.

cornball
10-02-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Daver
At SS the closest thing the Sox have is Angel Gonzalez,a low average hitter that does not amaze anyone with his glove.

AT second there is Willie Harris and his lack of stick to go along with his erratic defense,or Aaron Miles,with his not so good defense and a bat that matches it.

No help from within, but it is time for Valentin to move on. I do not think KW will bring him back, and rightfully so.

Bet the next SS is a grinder......lol

Chisoxfn
10-02-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Daver
At SS the closest thing the Sox have is Angel Gonzalez,a low average hitter that does not amaze anyone with his glove.

AT second there is Willie Harris and his lack of stick to go along with his erratic defense,or Aaron Miles,with his not so good defense and a bat that matches it.

On the bright side this was Gonzalez first full season. He was definately a dissapointment but the tools are definately there.

Also don't overlook Mike Morse. He's had some issues but I saw him play a few games for the Warthogs and I think he could have a future. Definately has some holes, but he's still rather young and made some spectacular plays over there. He is huge for a shortstop though (6'4).

The best of the bunch is definately Valido though...but he's ions away.

Chisoxfn
10-02-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Well, he only hits left handed against right handed pitchers. To simply assume that he would fare as well against left handed pitchers while hitting left handed doesn't seem well-founded, IMHO. If Jose comes back, they have to bring Graffy back, too, because he absolutely murders left handed pitching. But the manager has to substitute Graffinino EVERY time when a lefty is pitching for the other team. Jose shouldn't face a single lefty all year.

He couldn't do anyworse if he hit lefties from the left side of the plate. I have the same worries with Borchard from the right side. Borchard shows plus power from the left side, but whenever I've seen him hit from the right side I never see any pop.

Some hitters never give it up. For all I know it keeps their swing straight of it keeps them mentally focused.

Remember Hundley gave up switch hitting then went into that huge funk with the Cubs. Although I think he gave it up in LA and was rather sucessful there, but I could be wrong (Can't remember if he quit doing it in LA or if it was during spring training with the Cubs).

Now he's a switch hitter again.

voodoochile
10-02-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
The best of the bunch is definately Valido though...but he's ions away.

ions away? So he is really really close to being ready or did you mean "eons away"?

Daver
10-02-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
On the bright side this was Gonzalez first full season. He was definately a dissapointment but the tools are definately there.

Also don't overlook Mike Morse. He's had some issues but I saw him play a few games for the Warthogs and I think he could have a future. Definately has some holes, but he's still rather young and made some spectacular plays over there. He is huge for a shortstop though (6'4).

The best of the bunch is definately Valido though...but he's ions away.

Mike Morse will probably get converted to a first baseman if he ever develops some power,his skills at SS are marginal at best.

Valido will probably move through the system rather quickly,I would not be surprised to see him in low A ball to start next season,he has a very high ceiling,and all the tools are there.

Chisoxfn
10-02-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
ions away? So he is really really close to being ready or did you mean "eons away"?

Well..I guess what we talked about in science was past on somewhere else, lol.

Eons is what I meant...but an ion is something that gains or loses one or more electrons. Don't ask me what I'm gonna do with this knowledge since I'm a biz major.

Ah useless information passed on :D:

Chisoxfn
10-02-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Mike Morse will probably get converted to a first baseman if he ever develops some power,his skills at SS are marginal at best.

Valido will probably move through the system rather quickly,I would not be surprised to see him in low A ball to start next season,he has a very high ceiling,and all the tools are there.

I sure hope they don't do what they did with Schnur and McCarthy and keep him in short season for another year.

Those three plus Sweeney, Anderson, and Nanita should be fun to watch/read about as they go through the systems together. Not saying they will all develop..but it would be awesome to see those guys build chemistry and eventually develop into major league studs.

Dave...ya think Yan has a shot of developing? Saw him play a few games. Absolutely amazing once he gets on base but he failed to show me that he could do that at the major league level. COnsidering he was repeating it wasn't too good seeing him fade the way he did after that amazing start.

I still think the Sox should of had him in AA anyway, cause they had crap there in the middle infield.

voodoochile
10-02-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Well..I guess what we talked about in science was past on somewhere else, lol.

Eons is what I meant...but an ion is something that gains or loses one or more electrons. Don't ask me what I'm gonna do with this knowledge since I'm a biz major.

Ah useless information passed on :D:

It's a charged atom (+ or - an electron or two as you pointed out) hence really really small...

Chisoxfn
10-02-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It's a charged atom (+ or - an electron or two as you pointed out) hence really really small...

Kind of like the Sox chances of signing Kaz Matsui :angry:

Daver
10-02-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
I sure hope they don't do what they did with Schnur and McCarthy and keep him in short season for another year.

Those three plus Sweeney, Anderson, and Nanita should be fun to watch/read about as they go through the systems together. Not saying they will all develop..but it would be awesome to see those guys build chemistry and eventually develop into major league studs.

Dave...ya think Yan has a shot of developing? Saw him play a few games. Absolutely amazing once he gets on base but he failed to show me that he could do that at the major league level. COnsidering he was repeating it wasn't too good seeing him fade the way he did after that amazing start.

I still think the Sox should of had him in AA anyway, cause they had crap there in the middle infield.

Scnurstein played rookie ball this year because he played only briefly in the Arizona league the years before,the same with McCarthy.

Yuddy Yan needs to learn how to play second base as well as hit before he can be considered for much more than a career minor leaguer.The guy has speed,but there is no way he is going to be able to steal bases on the pitcher at the higher levels the way he has been at A ball,plain and simple.He has some talent,but it is very raw and needs a lot of work.

Chisoxfn
10-02-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Scnurstein played rookie ball this year because he played only briefly in the Arizona league the years before,the same with McCarthy.

Yuddy Yan needs to learn how to play second base as well as hit before he can be considered for much more than a career minor leaguer.The guy has speed,but there is no way he is going to be able to steal bases on the pitcher at the higher levels the way he has been at A ball,plain and simple.He has some talent,but it is very raw and needs a lot of work.

One thing I can say about Yan is he has amazing range and I saw him make some plays (In the three times I saw him play) that I still can't believe were made.

He does need to work on his throwing arm and getting consistent though. As far as his base stealing...I seriously believe if he got on base at a .340 clip he would steal 50 bases with ease. Seriously he is amazing on the paths. Reads the pitcher very well and gets huge jumps.

You think Willie is fast...look out when Yan is around.

I still don't think he'll ever develop to the point where he could get on base at that clip, but I will always hope cause he could become a DANGEROUS leadoff hitter.

basilesox
10-02-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
I can't believe there is so much affection for a guy who hits .230, can't hit in the clutch, and makes bad errors at key times in the game.

I HOPE HE GONE!!

You are dead wrong about Jose's clutch hitting.He may be the best clutch hitter the Sox have. I only go to about 15 sox games and the Sox have won 4 games in Walk-off Fashion with a Valentin at bat since 2000 with me in attendance. (two games you might remember were Cubs 2003 and Yankees 2000) So you probably figured out that he is my favorite player. I even had his jersey made for me. So I am hoping he will come back.

idseer
10-02-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by cornball
No help from within, but it is time for Valentin to move on. I do not think KW will bring him back, and rightfully so.

Bet the next SS is a grinder......lol


i think milwaukee has a shortstop available. :D:

MRKARNO
10-02-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i think milwaukee has a shortstop available. :D:

So does Oakland and Texas

RichH55
10-02-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by cornball
No help from within, but it is time for Valentin to move on. I do not think KW will bring him back, and rightfully so.

Bet the next SS is a grinder......lol

Rightfully so? If he can be had cheap(which I believe he can)..he is one of the better options out there considering our situation

Tragg
10-02-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
I'd like to see Manos and Sandy over Santana or Kimm. Them plus Coop, Walk, and Nosseck would be a great coaching staff!

If either alomar or manos coach to hit like they hit, I don't want either one 1000 miles from here - they are the prototype no pitch is too bad to swing at, walks = outs hitters.

basilesox
10-02-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Rightfully so? If he can be had cheap(which I believe he can)..he is one of the better options out there considering our situation

Who are you talking about here

RichH55
10-03-2003, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by basilesox
Who are you talking about here



Jose Valentin