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idseer
10-01-2003, 07:54 PM
what would everyone say if paul has 35 hrs, 110 rbi's, hit's .300 and an ops of .900 next year?

before you poopoo this idea ... just 1 year ago many of you were predicting this kind of year for him. does one year in the toilet say it's impossible? it's certainly not out of line with the numbers he's put up the previous 3 years.

i guess i'm suggesting that the fact he seems untradable now MAY not hurt as much as everyone is assuming. the guy is only 27 after all.

if we can't dump him without costing ourselves money, it COULD turn out to be one of our better (non)moves!

just food for thought.

RichH55
10-01-2003, 07:59 PM
An interesting thought process.....I think that the numbers are probably high(though I know its a best case scenario).

I think that Paul's value isnt as low as some make it out to be, but if we can deal him without taking on a ton of salary then it makes a ton TON of sense

Deadguy
10-01-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by idseer
what would everyone say if paul has 35 hrs, 110 rbi's, hit's .300 and an ops of .900 next year?

I'd congratulate him for visiting Barry Bonds' pharmacist.

before you poopoo this idea

It's not that I'm poopooing this idea......just laughing uncontrollably at it.

... just 1 year ago many of you were predicting this kind of year for him. does one year in the toilet say it's impossible? it's certainly not out of line with the numbers he's put up the previous 3 years.

Huh? He's never hit 35 hrs, 110 RBIs, or had a .900 OPS, and you think it's possible for this reject to do that? He has hit 30 HRs just once, hit .300 just once, and knocked in 100 runs just once. Thinking that he can put the above numbers up is ridiculous.

i guess i'm suggesting that the fact he seems untradable now MAY not hurt as much as everyone is assuming. the guy is only 27 after all.

Yeah, and at the age of 27, he inexplicably had the worst year of his career. 27 is an age where a lot of players have career years, yet Konerko coincidentally enough has the worst year of his career after signing a big contract. Unless he was injured this season, there is no excuse for it.

if we can't dump him without costing ourselves money, it COULD turn out to be one of our better (non)moves!


Well, two other organizations gave up on him, and I doubt they regret it at this point. I pray that the Sox become the 3rd organization to get rid of this guy, but no GM is dumb enough to take him. I just hope this doesn't turn into the same situation that Pittsburgh had with Kevin Young, where they also gave an overrated player a fat contract, and then eventually just had to release him.

Randar68
10-01-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by idseer
what would everyone say if paul has 35 hrs, 110 rbi's, hit's .300 and an ops of .900 next year?

before you poopoo this idea ... just 1 year ago many of you were predicting this kind of year for him. does one year in the toilet say it's impossible? it's certainly not out of line with the numbers he's put up the previous 3 years.

i guess i'm suggesting that the fact he seems untradable now MAY not hurt as much as everyone is assuming. the guy is only 27 after all.

if we can't dump him without costing ourselves money, it COULD turn out to be one of our better (non)moves!

just food for thought.


He had a career year last year, considerably better than any other year to this point, and didn't have an OPS of .900. He does not walk enough to have a .900 OPS without hitting about 40 HR's with an average in the .300 range.

Dream on.

RichH55
10-01-2003, 10:13 PM
What's his career year so far? 858 OPS? 900 is reachable, albeit it not probable....that being said, it's not like 900 makes one a Superstar.....

JRIG
10-01-2003, 10:16 PM
Some are calling for Frank's head after a .956 OPS season becuase at a possible $8 million next year, he's not worth the money.

Now we're **hoping** Konerko might have a .900 OPS next season, something he's never really come close to in his career, and saying it would justify his huge-ass albatross contract.

Makes no sense no me.

idseer
10-01-2003, 10:40 PM
you miss the point. it's not about frank first of all, it's about NOT seeing, what, 8 or 9 mil go down the drain. i'm not suggesting paul would be worth it even if he had that kind of year (by the way he's come very close to all the figures i mentioned at one time or another). but if he did ... even if he did something like 25-100-.300-.850, then at least what he's getting would be a lot easier to swallow. all i'm saying is why assume the worst? i'm sure that if we try to move him this is how we'll paint him.

if he were 30 or more i might feel differently, but a lot of players don't even hit their stride at 27. and don't tell me about 2 teams giving up on him. he'd had a total of 224 ab's with those teams. he's had 4 very good years in chicago.

maybe i'm wrong, time will tell. i just think it's strange that EVERY ONE of you has written him off entirely based on this one season and i'm saying MAYBE you're premature.

RKMeibalane
10-01-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Some are calling for Frank's head after a .956 OPS season becuase at a possible $8 million next year, he's not worth the money.

Now we're **hoping** Konerko might have a .900 OPS next season, something he's never really come close to in his career, and saying it would justify his huge-ass albatross contract.

Makes no sense no me.

Nothing the Frank-haters say makes any sense.

JRIG
10-01-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by idseer
you miss the point. it's not about frank first of all, it's about NOT seeing, what, 8 or 9 mil go down the drain. i'm not suggesting paul would be worth it even if he had that kind of year (by the way he's come very close to all the figures i mentioned at one time or another). but if he did ... even if he did something like 25-100-.300-.850, then at least what he's getting would be a lot easier to swallow. all i'm saying is why assume the worst? i'm sure that if we try to move him this is how we'll paint him.

if he were 30 or more i might feel differently, but a lot of players don't even hit their stride at 27. and don't tell me about 2 teams giving up on him. he'd had a total of 224 ab's with those teams. he's had 4 very good years in chicago.

maybe i'm wrong, time will tell. i just think it's strange that EVERY ONE of you has written him off entirely based on this one season and i'm saying MAYBE you're premature.

I don't think it's about $8 million going down the drain. If Konerko is here he's going to play just about every day. And you know what? There's a real good chance he'll put up an .850 OPS. He was one the the most consistent players in baseball the 4 years prior to this year. But even doing that doesn't justify his contract.

I thought it was a bad contract the day he signed it and time has done nothing to change my mind. Konerko will never come close to outperforming his deal. It's money that should be better spent elsewhere. Daubach can probably do very close to what Konerko does, and we paid him $450,000 this year. I'll take that $7.5 million difference any day of the week.

voodoochile
10-01-2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by idseer
what would everyone say if paul has 35 hrs, 110 rbi's, hit's .300 and an ops of .900 next year?

before you poopoo this idea ... just 1 year ago many of you were predicting this kind of year for him. does one year in the toilet say it's impossible? it's certainly not out of line with the numbers he's put up the previous 3 years.


Here's hoping at least one other MLB GM thinks it's possible...

RKMeibalane
10-01-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Here's hoping at least one other MLB GM thinks it's possible...

I agree. If Konerko is gone, then the new manager is free to (put Frank at first) make adjustments to the lineup. Once he has (put Frank at first) decided on a new everyday lineup, then this team can move forward (with Frank at first), and we can forget about the 2003 season implosion.

jabrch
10-01-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by idseer
what would everyone say if paul has 35 hrs, 110 rbi's, hit's .300 and an ops of .900 next year?


I'd say he exceeded my wildest expectations. I'd have been happy with 25, 80, .280 and .800. - beats the heck out of the crap he dropped on us this year.

That said, if my choice is eating the 9mm or keeping him, I'd rather keep him. ID, I don't think your thoughts are as ridiculous as some will make them out to be. Exaggerated that he'd hit those numbers, but not out of the question that he have value next season.

RKMeibalane
10-01-2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I'd say he exceeded my wildest expectations. I'd have been happy with 25, 80, .280 and .800. - beats the heck out of the crap he dropped on us this year.

That said, if my choice is eating the 9mm or keeping him, I'd rather keep him. ID, I don't think your thoughts are as ridiculous as some will make them out to be. Exaggerated that he'd hit those numbers, but not out of the question that he have value next season.

I agree. The only reasonable way to get rid of Konerko would be to trade him. If that can't be done, then the Sox need to just stick it out until his contract expires. Maybe he'll bounce back next season. He swung the bat well during the second half, so it is possible that he will rebound in 2004.

39thandWallace
10-02-2003, 12:47 AM
I have had it with this guy, must be traded. Don Zimmer could make it to first base before this guy.

Dan Gelo
10-02-2003, 05:37 AM
He's only 27, yet his hip is more arthritic than my grandma's.

mrwag
10-02-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Dan Gelo
He's only 27, yet his hip is more arthritic than my grandma's.
Just watching this guy walk makes me hurt.

hold2dibber
10-02-2003, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by idseer
what would everyone say if paul has 35 hrs, 110 rbi's, hit's .300 and an ops of .900 next year?

before you poopoo this idea ... just 1 year ago many of you were predicting this kind of year for him. does one year in the toilet say it's impossible? it's certainly not out of line with the numbers he's put up the previous 3 years.

i guess i'm suggesting that the fact he seems untradable now MAY not hurt as much as everyone is assuming. the guy is only 27 after all.

if we can't dump him without costing ourselves money, it COULD turn out to be one of our better (non)moves!

just food for thought.

I don't think the numbers you suggest are very likely, but your point is well taken. Konerko had a horse crap year. But he had several pretty good years before that and he's still young. But that doesn't mean the Sox should keep him. Unlike others, I still think he has some trade value for the reasons above, but I think his contract is a problem. If I were KW, I would try to trade him (to the Dodgers for Mota? To the D-backs for Finley?) just to move the salary to a team that really needs some stick. He might have to send a little money with him as well. If that doesn't work out, ask PK to defer some of that cash. If he's still here next year, I believe he can put up numbers like those he put up in 2000 - 2002. And if he does that, although he'll still be overpaid, at least he'll be a useful, productive player.

Dick Allen
10-02-2003, 09:46 AM
Don't forget, it wasn't just 2003, but also the entire second half of 2002 that Konerko hasn't hit a lick, though his foot injury was supposedly the reason in 2002. That said, we can't continue to have a guy in the lineup who makes not one, but TWO outs consistently.

Bobby Thigpen
10-02-2003, 10:28 AM
I think those numbers are a little high, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit for Pauly to have a great year next year. I could especially see a situation where the Sox trade Pauly, he comes back to his form of early 2002, and everyone on here instantly begins ripping KW a new butthole for getting rid of him (everyone remember Keith Foulke?). I could especially see that after Frank proves to be just as selfish and streakish at first as he was at DH.

But as we all know, putting Frank at first will solve every Sox problem.

Deadguy
10-02-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I think those numbers are a little high, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit for Pauly to have a great year next year. I could especially see a situation where the Sox trade Pauly, he comes back to his form of early 2002, and everyone on here instantly begins ripping KW a new butthole for getting rid of him (everyone remember Keith Foulke?).

ROFL

Don't even jokingly compare Slownerko to a worthwhile player like Keith Foulke.

Konerko made the All-Star team based on what he did in June of 2002, when he hit 12 homeruns. In April and May of 2002, he wasn't very impressive, and considering he's only hit 24 homers in the season and a half since June of 2002, his performance in that month is looking more and more like a fluke.

He's never strung together a year in which he could even justify his current salary, and he's proven to be nothing but unreliable, so I just pray that some GM is dumb enough to take this reject. Won't happen though.

doublem23
10-02-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I think those numbers are a little high, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit for Pauly to have a great year next year. I could especially see a situation where the Sox trade Pauly, he comes back to his form of early 2002, and everyone on here instantly begins ripping KW a new butthole for getting rid of him (everyone remember Keith Foulke?). I could especially see that after Frank proves to be just as selfish and streakish at first as he was at DH.

But as we all know, putting Frank at first will solve every Sox problem.

Keith Foulke and Paul Konerko are completely different. In Foulke's last season with the Sox, he struggled a bit early, but then when he bounced back (that ERA was under 1, IIRC, for the 2nd half of '02) he never got another chance from Manuel. Konerko just flat out blows.

Bobby Thigpen
10-02-2003, 11:42 AM
Don't even jokingly compare Slownerko to a worthwhile player like Keith Foulke.

I'm not comparing the players, I'm comparing the situations. Everyone on here (not everyone, but a vast majority) bitched and bitched about how terrible Foulke was and how the Sox should get rid of him immediately. When they did deal him, they rejoiced at his departure and welcomed Billy Blows Koch with open arms and signaled a new day in Sox history. Well now everyone is constantly bitching about Koch and how they wish Foulker was back.

I'm just saying that I anticipate a similar reaction if Pauly is dealt for absolutely nothing to clear salary and next year he has another solid year (which he has for virtually every year he's been with the Sox save the second half of last year, and the first half of this year).

I can't argue his salary, it is extravegant. But the revisionist history that goes on on this sight it absolutely mindblowing to me. Take Colon for example. After he finished the season strong everyone wants to sign him like he's the second coming of Nolan Ryan. Everyone seems to forget the Colon from the Cubs series or earlier in the year when he had very long "dead arm" stretches and begged to get out of games (the Cubs game) because he was "tired". Everyone seems to forget these things, yet jump at the chance to bring up and proven "history" when dealing with Frank or someone they like.

Sorry for the long tangent, but this is something that has bothered me for a long time. Discuss.

RichH55
10-02-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I think those numbers are a little high, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit for Pauly to have a great year next year. I could especially see a situation where the Sox trade Pauly, he comes back to his form of early 2002, and everyone on here instantly begins ripping KW a new butthole for getting rid of him (everyone remember Keith Foulke?). I could especially see that after Frank proves to be just as selfish and streakish at first as he was at DH.

But as we all know, putting Frank at first will solve every Sox problem.

If we deal Konerko for a 30 year AA pitcher(not even a leftie) and he puts up a .858 OPS year....I will not shed one tear

He is simply not worth the money he makes....Will most likely never been worth the money he makes....and is detrimental to the team on the whole.

I agree with the sentiment that there is no point to eating his contract, but if he can be moved that is option 1-31 on what to do with Konerko



As far as people ripping KW....its going to happen anyway...People were upset when Sean Lowe and Herbert Perry were dealt, and people were upset at the pickup of Marte.....I'd prefer he make the right move instead of worrying about message board fallout if PK has a year that makes him an average 1B

Randar68
10-02-2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Some are calling for Frank's head after a .956 OPS season becuase at a possible $8 million next year, he's not worth the money.

Now we're **hoping** Konerko might have a .900 OPS next season, something he's never really come close to in his career, and saying it would justify his huge-ass albatross contract.

Makes no sense no me.


Smartest thing I've read all week.

idseer
10-02-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Smartest thing I've read all week.

then you've had a bad week.
the quote about 'justifying' konerkos contract was inaccurate at best. show me where anyone said a .900 ops would justify his contract.

bc2k
10-02-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Slownerko

Nice. I remember a few years back hearing Peter Gammons say something like, "Paul Konerko may be the slowest prospect I have ever seen."

Bobby Thigpen
10-02-2003, 03:39 PM
Nice. I remember a few years back hearing Peter Gammons say something like, "Paul Konerko may be the slowest prospect I have ever seen."

Please don't ever refer to anything Gammons says with any reverance. The man is a gigantic tool. May not have one, but is one.

FarmerAndy
10-02-2003, 04:02 PM
Not every player has to be a speedster, but Paul Konerko gives the word "Slow" a whole new meaning. Infielders have severely botched up plays and still recovered in time to throw him out by four steps.

He's only 27, and players don't gain speed with age. Imagine how slow he'll be at 30. I play softball with over-weight people who run faster than Paul Konerko. It's really quite sad.

And on another thread people were ripping Frank for hurting the team with his slow base running. Frank is indeed slow, but Konerko makes him look like a rabbit.

MisterB
10-02-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I'm not comparing the players, I'm comparing the situations. Everyone on here (not everyone, but a vast majority) bitched and bitched about how terrible Foulke was and how the Sox should get rid of him immediately.

I don't think it was a vast majority, there was a more even split among the two camps. And the situations are different as well. Foulke lost his role due to a handful of bad outings and never regained that role despite returning to form. Konerko lost his spot (briefly) due to 5 straight months of poor performance (dating back to mid-2002) yet regained it despite the fact he hadn't showed any improvement. If Konerko is dealt, he would have to do significantly better than one of his 'solid' years for me to miss him at $8M+ a year.

WWIII
10-02-2003, 06:55 PM
The three-headed monster that plays 1B/DH is at least one head too many. Daubach is cheap and I believe he can put up decent numbers. Frank is a career White Sox player, and frankly one of the best, and I think you hold on to him for that reason plus the fact that I think he can still put up all-star numbers. I like Konerko, but he is by no means necessary to the team, makes way too much money, and would probably do better elsewhere anyway. If someone has potential to put up big numbers but doesn't with the White Sox, it's almost a sure thing they will with another team. So trade Konerko, no hard feelings, just business.

bc2k
10-02-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
Not every player has to be a speedster, but Paul Konerko gives the word "Slow" a whole new meaning. Infielders have severely botched up plays and still recovered in time to throw him out by four steps.

He's only 27, and players don't gain speed with age. Imagine how slow he'll be at 30. I play softball with over-weight people who run faster than Paul Konerko. It's really quite sad.

And on another thread people were ripping Frank for hurting the team with his slow base running. Frank is indeed slow, but Konerko makes him look like a rabbit.

It is really upsetting to see a runner dog it down the line and be throw out on a botched play, when he could have been safe had he been running his fastest. Konerko is slow to begin with and he dogs it to first base all the time. I have noticed Thomas, OTHO, consistently run hard through first base on routine ground balls. I wish the new manager would address Konerko's dogish desire.

RKMeibalane
10-03-2003, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
It is really upsetting to see a runner dog it down the line and be throw out on a botched play, when he could have been safe had he been running his fastest. Konerko is slow to begin with and he dogs it to first base all the time. I have noticed Thomas, OTHO, consistently run hard through first base on routine ground balls. I wish the new manager would address Konerko's dogish desire.

I know what you mean. It's almost laughable how Konerko is thrown out when running to first base. The fact that he doesn't always run hard just makes things worse. I remember a play back in August against Anaheim (the game where Frank hit the walk-off home run). Konerko hit a ball to short. Eckstein bobbled it, then kicked, but still had plenty of time to get Paulie at first. I just shook my head.