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maurice
10-01-2003, 01:23 PM
A package including Maggs to the Yanks for a package including Johnson was discused elsewhere.

I'll open the bidding in this thread with a package including Maggs to the Mariners for a package including Guillen and Garcia.

If the Mariners lose Cameron as a FA, they'll need to add an OF, preferably one with a big bat. They can move Suzuki or Winn to CF and play Maggs at a corner spot. If they sign Matsui (they're should be his top choice), Guillen becomes expendable. Their starting pitching is very deep and Garcia is expendable.

The Sox would reduce salary while adding a starting pitcher and a servicable, younger SS. Use the $$ saved to help resign Colon and Everett (RF), and upgrade at 2B.

anewman35
10-01-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by maurice
A package including Maggs to the Yanks for a package including Johnson was discused elsewhere.

I'll open the bidding in this thread with a package including Maggs to the Mariners for a package including Guillen and Garcia.


People are always talking here about the bad PR the team has had, and the things they've done to piss off fans. Let me tell you right here, if they trade Maggs, even if it's a good deal, they are going to upset a ton of fans. If they care at all about their PR, they won't do it.

maurice
10-01-2003, 01:33 PM
The PR issue has been identified and discussed in other threads. I would think that the stereotypical knowledgeable Sox fan would recognize that a trade that gets you a starting pitcher and a starting SS for a corner OF is not per se a bad thing.

kittle42
10-01-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by maurice
The PR issue has been identified and discussed in other threads. I would think that the stereotypical knowledgeable Sox fan would recognize that a trade that gets you a starting pitcher and a starting SS for a corner OF is not per se a bad thing.

Problems:

Freddy Garcia - sucks
Carlos Guillen - sucks

hold2dibber
10-01-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by maurice
A package including Maggs to the Yanks for a package including Johnson was discused elsewhere.

I'll open the bidding in this thread with a package including Maggs to the Mariners for a package including Guillen and Garcia.

If the Mariners lose Cameron as a FA, they'll need to add an OF, preferably one with a big bat. They can move Suzuki or Winn to CF and play Maggs at a corner spot. If they sign Matsui (they're should be his top choice), Guillen becomes expendable. Their starting pitching is very deep and Garcia is expendable.

The Sox would reduce salary while adding a starting pitcher and a servicable, younger SS. Use the $$ saved to help resign Colon and Everett (RF), and upgrade at 2B.

I wouldn't have an objection to trading Maggs, but there's no way I'd do it for an average SS and a below average starting pitcher.

If Maggs is the bait, how about sending him to LA (where Sheffield is a free agent) for Mota and Nomo? (That's off the top of my head; I have to think it through a little.)

MikeKreevich
10-01-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by maurice
A package including Maggs to the Yanks for a package including Johnson was discused elsewhere.

I'll open the bidding in this thread with a package including Maggs to the Mariners for a package including Guillen and Garcia.

If the Mariners lose Cameron as a FA, they'll need to add an OF, preferably one with a big bat. They can move Suzuki or Winn to CF and play Maggs at a corner spot. If they sign Matsui (they're should be his top choice), Guillen becomes expendable. Their starting pitching is very deep and Garcia is expendable.

The Sox would reduce salary while adding a starting pitcher and a servicable, younger SS. Use the $$ saved to help resign Colon and Everett (RF), and upgrade at 2B.
Makes sense to me.
Magglio is our best all around player. He has a great attitude and is the kind of player you build a team around, not trade.

Iwritecode
10-01-2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by maurice
The Sox would reduce salary while adding a starting pitcher and a servicable, younger SS. Use the $$ saved to help resign Colon and Everett (RF), and upgrade at 2B.

Here's an idea, maybe JR needs to open his eyes, look around and realize that he's never going to make it to the WS (much less win it) with a 50 million dollar payroll!!!

It's sad when we are discussing trading one of our best and most popular player to save $$$...

Hullett_Fan
10-01-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If Maggs is the bait, how about sending him to LA (where Sheffield is a free agent) for Mota and Nomo? (That's off the top of my head; I have to think it through a little.)

Did you mean Jordan?? They'd have to throw in someone else for me to bite.

34 Inch Stick
10-01-2003, 03:07 PM
While we are talking crazy how about Maggs for Ichiro and Garcia.

soxtalker
10-01-2003, 03:11 PM
We talk about dumping some of our high-salary players, and then we debate the wisdom of that. But I have a slightly different question. Except for the NY Yankees, are there any teams out there who are willing to add salary or are in a position to do so because they have free agents with sizable contracts departing?

Deadguy
10-01-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
We talk about dumping some of our high-salary players, and then we debate the wisdom of that. But I have a slightly different question. Except for the NY Yankees, are there any teams out there who are willing to add salary or are in a position to do so because they have free agents with sizable contracts departing?

Also diminishing Magglio's trade value is that fact that he is in the last year of his contract. Teams will be reluctant to give up much when they know they can just wait a year, and attempt to sign him via free agency.

When the Rangers attempted to trade Juan Gonzalez, they would not have received much in return from the Montreal Expos.

jabrch
10-01-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I'll open the bidding in this thread with a package including Maggs to the Mariners for a package including Guillen and Garcia.


The reported problem with Freddy Garcia has a lot to do with his off the field habits. Jamie Moyer has crticized him, in public, for drinking too much on nights before his starts. There is a good deal of rumore - and I know of no truth behind it - that this gets in his way of pitching. Garcia has been pretty bad lately. I wouldn't give up Mags in this deal.

The Mags for Nick deals also included another prospect (either pitching or IF) and usually we hoped to throw Konerko or Koch into the deal. If it was straight up, I'd rather not trade Mags for Nick Johnson either.

I am not dead set against trading Mags. The reality is that either Mags, Frank or Colon have to go. We can not afford all of them given 2003s 51mm payroll or even a projected 60-65mm payroll. (Is anyone 100% convinced that JR will raise payroll 20 - 30%?) Mags has the biggest salary of the bunch and would fetch us the most in return, so he is most likely to go. I just hope we are careful and that we get good value in return if we trade him.

jabrch
10-01-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If Maggs is the bait, how about sending him to LA (where Sheffield is a free agent) for Mota and Nomo? (That's off the top of my head; I have to think it through a little.)

Huh? Sheff is in Atlanta. LA needs a hitter or two, but they don't have a ton of salary flexibility either, do they? Hundley is stuck there - and I wouldn't take that contract off their hands. McGriff is a FA. So is Burnitz, but he wasn't on their payroll this year (NYM) They already have a big $ RF in Shawn Green. I can't see them really going balls-out for Magglio and the 1 year left on his deal.

Florida is rumored to be looking to add a big stick in the OF. Pierre is on his way out and Encarnacion will probably move to CF. They don't have a real RF there. I like Alex Gonzalez and a bunch of their young SPs. (Dontrelle, Tejera, Redman, Penny, Pavano, Beckett and Burnett). Obviously some of those arms are worth more than others (Dontrelle, Beckett and Burnett are the high value guys...) Would anyone like something like that? It isn't a Herschel Walker type deal - but I dont think we will get that for Magglio in the last year of his deal.

I think we need to be realistic. We are facing a challenge keeping our payroll under 60mm (which is a 20% raise over last year). I don't see JR subscibing to a 70mm payroll (40% higher than 2003...Do you?

hold2dibber
10-01-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Did you mean Jordan?? They'd have to throw in someone else for me to bite.

Whoops! I started to suggest a trade to Atlanta for Furcal, but couldn't come up with anybody else to throw in that I'd want, and then the LA idea popped into my mind since they have big $ and need hitting. I failed to delete the Sheffield reference when I switched gears.

jeremyb1
10-01-2003, 03:56 PM
As I've been fond of saying lately, if I could trade anyone, I would trade Paully to dump his salary assuming another team would take the majority of his deal off our hands (I'm skeptical) and I would trade Carlos because OF and 1B/DH are both relatively deep positions for us and I feel that he's the most overrated player on our roster right now.

As far as players I'd try to acquire, I'd look at young productive middle infielders, starters, and relievers. Ideally we'd acquire players that aren't too old and can still help us next season assuming we're still going for it but I wouldn't be completely adverse to taking on players that are a little ways away provided we're not loading up on lots of 19 year old pitching prospects.

gosox41
10-01-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
People are always talking here about the bad PR the team has had, and the things they've done to piss off fans. Let me tell you right here, if they trade Maggs, even if it's a good deal, they are going to upset a ton of fans. If they care at all about their PR, they won't do it.

If the Sox can trader Mags for a good starting pitcher and allow the Sox to keep Colon, I don't see the bad PR. Can you imagine a rotation of:

Colon
Buehrle
Good Starting Pitcher (#2 guy at least)
Loiaza
Garland

That's a damn good rotation right there.

Bob

gosox41
10-01-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by maurice
A package including Maggs to the Yanks for a package including Johnson was discused elsewhere.

I'll open the bidding in this thread with a package including Maggs to the Mariners for a package including Guillen and Garcia.

If the Mariners lose Cameron as a FA, they'll need to add an OF, preferably one with a big bat. They can move Suzuki or Winn to CF and play Maggs at a corner spot. If they sign Matsui (they're should be his top choice), Guillen becomes expendable. Their starting pitching is very deep and Garcia is expendable.

The Sox would reduce salary while adding a starting pitcher and a servicable, younger SS. Use the $$ saved to help resign Colon and Everett (RF), and upgrade at 2B.

Garcia has been over used the last few years and has soome lingering arm problems. I don't think he's worth the risk. If I recall correctly, he cleared waivers in August because no one put a claim in for him. The Sox could have gotten him for very little and still didn't do it.

jabrch
10-01-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
As I've been fond of saying lately, if I could trade anyone, I would trade Paully to dump his salary assuming another team would take the majority of his deal off our hands (I'm skeptical) and I would trade Carlos because OF and 1B/DH are both relatively deep positions for us and I feel that he's the most overrated player on our roster right now.

I am guessing you won't be able to move Konerko without taking other baggage back. Teams have enough trouble with their own deadweight deal - they dont want ours. Frankly, as bad as PK has been, and with the trade escalator in his deal, I am pretty sure we are stuck with him next year.

Carlos had a very well improved season in 2003. I think he is certainly on the upside. I think at 5-6mm he is still a fair deal. He hit .291, had a .499 slg%, a .331 ob%, 30HR and 100/100. That's pretty darn good for 6mm. (sure, lots of people will post very good numbers hitting in front of Frank, I agree, but Carlos is improving every year.)


Originally posted by jeremyb1 As far as players I'd try to acquire, I'd look at young productive middle infielders, starters, and relievers. Ideally we'd acquire players that aren't too old and can still help us next season assuming we're still going for it but I wouldn't be completely adverse to taking on players that are a little ways away provided we're not loading up on lots of 19 year old pitching prospects.

Sure...we all agree...lets get good young IF and SP. As you know, they don't grow on trees. Without arguing the merits of D'Angelo Jimenez :D: teams just don't give those guys away.

pudge
10-01-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
If the Sox can trader Mags for a good starting pitcher and allow the Sox to keep Colon, I don't see the bad PR. Can you imagine a rotation of:

Colon
Buehrle
Good Starting Pitcher (#2 guy at least)
Loiaza
Garland

That's a damn good rotation right there.

Bob

Mags needs to stay and Konerko needs to go - that's how you fill that spot in the rotation...

gosox41
10-01-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Mags needs to stay and Konerko needs to go - that's how you fill that spot in the rotation...

How are you going to trade PK for a very good pitcher? THe Sox would be lucky to give him away for nothing.

In a perfect world the Sox find a way to dump Koch and Konerko and keep Magglio. It's not a perfect world. And with a lot of teams finally wising up to player values mixed in with the fact that a lot of teams are looking to keep their payroll the same or even lower it, it's going to be hard to trade Konerko or Koch unless they take someone else's problem off their hands.

Bob

Win1ForMe
10-01-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
As I've been fond of saying lately, if I could trade anyone, I would trade Paully to dump his salary assuming another team would take the majority of his deal off our hands (I'm skeptical) and I would trade Carlos because OF and 1B/DH are both relatively deep positions for us and I feel that he's the most overrated player on our roster right now.

Thank you! Pauly and Carlos should be the trade bait, not Maggs.

bc2k
10-01-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Mags needs to stay and Konerko needs to go - that's how you fill that spot in the rotation...

I like that idea. Even with the same front four that we had in 2003, the fifth spot needs to be upgraded. Maybe in a move similar to Karros/Grudzalanek for Hundley, we can move Konerko for an overpriced veteran #5 pitcher. With Konerko's departure we'll have one less station-to-station player allowing us to keep Thomas and resign Everett.

The only downside is what happens if one of our current #5 candidates (Stewart, Rauch, Wright, Schoenweis) become worthy of the spot but can't since an overpriced veteran is blocking his call up.

I'm also liking that Wilson Alvarez idea someone here mentioned. Is he a FA?

Win1ForMe
10-01-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I'm also liking that Wilson Alvarez idea someone here mentioned. Is he a FA?

Yes, he is. It's kind of a risky move though since there's going to be some team willing to pay a good chunk of ca$h solely based on a few 2nd half starts.

I'd sign him to a 500K minor league contract with a $3.5M option for 2005. :D:

RichH55
10-01-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
People are always talking here about the bad PR the team has had, and the things they've done to piss off fans. Let me tell you right here, if they trade Maggs, even if it's a good deal, they are going to upset a ton of fans. If they care at all about their PR, they won't do it.

Perhaps its good not to worry about PR when making moves.....not perfect, but I think you get my point....I could be wrong though:)

RichH55
10-01-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Yes, he is. It's kind of a risky move though since there's going to be some team willing to pay a good chunk of ca$h solely based on a few 2nd half starts.

I'd sign him to a 500K minor league contract with a $3.5M option for 2005. :D:

Sounds good to me:) I'd also take a look at Sterling Hitchcock for the back of the rotation

jeremyb1
10-02-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
I am guessing you won't be able to move Konerko without taking other baggage back. Teams have enough trouble with their own deadweight deal - they dont want ours. Frankly, as bad as PK has been, and with the trade escalator in his deal, I am pretty sure we are stuck with him next year.

Carlos had a very well improved season in 2003. I think he is certainly on the upside. I think at 5-6mm he is still a fair deal. He hit .291, had a .499 slg%, a .331 ob%, 30HR and 100/100. That's pretty darn good for 6mm. (sure, lots of people will post very good numbers hitting in front of Frank, I agree, but Carlos is improving every year.)

Sure...we all agree...lets get good young IF and SP. As you know, they don't grow on trees. Without arguing the merits of D'Angelo Jimenez :D: teams just don't give those guys away.

I'm with you on Paully. I think it'd be real tough if not impossible to move most of his salary so I don't think its worth it. As far as Carlos I don't think that he's not worth 5 or 6 million so much as I feel we could probably get a more productive player in return with the potential to save money in the process. The money isn't the selling point with me though, its that his value has most likely peaked and since he abandoned his plate discipline from the second half of last season he's simply very good and not the team MVP calliber player many seem to perceive him as. You think a team like the Orioles might pay heavily for him. The problem there would be finding much talent in their organization. Hehe.

maurice
10-02-2003, 11:20 AM
KW announced that the budget will not be increased appreciably. As demonstrated elsewhere, this means that
KW will need to dump several veteran players, even if the majority of Sox fans don't think it's a good idea. I'd love to keep both Colon and Everett, but there's no chance of that without a major trade. Given their contracts, Konerko and Koch probably will be back, and we certainly can't trade them for cheaper, more valuable players. The deal has to make sense from BOTH sides. Top flight SPs and SSs rarely go on the market. OTOH, several corner OFs who can hit with big one-year contracts are on the market every year.

This really comes down to math. IMO, Everett (RF) + Guillen (SS) + any of the Mariners 5 SPs + extra cash saved for a FA 2B + prospects > Maggs (as a RF) + Valentin (SS) + Wright (as a SP).

longshot7
10-02-2003, 10:22 PM
I think anyone who wants to trade De-Magglio is an idiot.

and on that note, what about bringing back Robin Ventura in an utilty role?

whitesoxwilkes
10-02-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
The reported problem with Freddy Garcia has a lot to do with his off the field habits. Jamie Moyer has crticized him, in public, for drinking too much on nights before his starts. There is a good deal of rumore - and I know of no truth behind it - that this gets in his way of pitching.

:XL

"Hey! It works for me just fine!"

RichH55
10-02-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
I think anyone who wants to trade De-Magglio is an idiot.

and on that note, what about bringing back Robin Ventura in an utilty role?

An idiot? Wouldn't it at least depend on the deal? Or what about how contract talks go and how the Sox do in 2004?


I think a case for dealing Magglio can be made.

If you meant this as "want" to deal him....like Frank-haters "want" Frank gone...then I'm with you

MHOUSE
10-02-2003, 11:14 PM
I think I'd take Maggs for Pierre, Castillo/Gonzalez, and Brad Penny. Nothing less. The sad thing is what someone else mentioned that we can't move Maggs to save money and sign someone else. I mean we'd fill one or two holes, but create another HUGE one. It's ridiculous when u think about it. Stick with Maggs and SPEND MONEY. If you're trying to save then don't sign crappy closers to extensions or pay first basemen too much after their career year. I'd take a shot at Paulie returning to form, but no way for that $.

maurice
10-03-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
If you meant this as "want" to deal him....like Frank-haters "want" Frank gone...then I'm with you

I don't think there are any Maggs-haters on this board, as opposed to the contingent of Frank-haters. Heck, even many (most?) of the Frank supporters would agree to trade him under the proper circumstances. That's just realism. Unfortunately, there are lots of Sox-crack-pipe smoking lurkers around here, which you'd expect on a fan board.

SluggersAway
10-03-2003, 10:33 PM
Hey Mo,

Where are the crack-pipe smoking lurkers? Identify yourselves...

soxtalker
10-04-2003, 09:06 AM
I still haven't heard many suggestions of teams -- other than the NYY -- who would be willing to take on a contract the size that Maggs has. Ok, I'll put forward a radical proposal. If we can find some team that is willing to do so, I'd be willing to trade him for several good prospects. Yes, that means that we will be taking a risk with some young guys next year -- perhaps Reed or Borchard -- but I want to put us in a position to also win in 2005 and 2006. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I really don't think that there are a lot of teams out there that will be willing to pick up Maggs contract.

idseer
10-04-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I still haven't heard many suggestions of teams -- other than the NYY -- who would be willing to take on a contract the size that Maggs has. Ok, I'll put forward a radical proposal. If we can find some team that is willing to do so, I'd be willing to trade him for several good prospects. Yes, that means that we will be taking a risk with some young guys next year -- perhaps Reed or Borchard -- but I want to put us in a position to also win in 2005 and 2006. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I really don't think that there are a lot of teams out there that will be willing to pick up Maggs contract.

this is exactly the case. people seem to think you can't trade magglio for 'never heard ofs' or 2 average starters. the fact is if you trade him for another star or stars' salaries you haven't saved any money, which is the whole point of trading him! if another team is going to take on magglio's salary they aren't going to include a whole lot of cheap real good talent along with that.

i think if you trade him you have to HOPE you get a COUPLE holes filled for less money.

magglio is a very good player, but he's not a $14 M player. i say go for it.

soxtalker
10-04-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by idseer
this is exactly the case. people seem to think you can't trade magglio for 'never heard ofs' or 2 average starters. the fact is if you trade him for another star or stars' salaries you haven't saved any money, which is the whole point of trading him! if another team is going to take on magglio's salary they aren't going to include a whole lot of cheap real good talent along with that.

i think if you trade him you have to HOPE you get a COUPLE holes filled for less money.

magglio is a very good player, but he's not a $14 M player. i say go for it.

Most trade proposals that I've seen on this board (in many threads) strike me as "selling low and buying high". People want to dump the players that have had recent problems (e.g., Koch and Konerko). For those players that have been doing well, they want other teams to take on salary and good/established players in return. There had better be a pretty strong need on the other side. Perhaps we could do that with pitching (e.g., Loaiza, Buerhle), but I doubt it works for most, if any, of our position players.