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View Full Version : Heartwarming Keith Foulke story to get us thru the Winter


Hangar18
09-30-2003, 01:16 PM
http://x.go.com/cgi/x.pl?goto=http%3A//sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire%3Fid%3D1626737&name=RELATEDHeadlines-Story&srvc=sz


What couldve been ...........

Hangar18
09-30-2003, 01:40 PM
I know I know, Hindsight is always 20/20, looking back its all
a Bit Fuzzy.
But had we not made that Koch for Foulke trade ............and just
Opened up the wallet a little more ..... We Could be complaining about how ESPN relegated us to the NOON game and gave the Cubs PrimeTime.

GoSox2K3
09-30-2003, 01:54 PM
The thing about the Foulke trade, though, is that it wasn't just questionable in hindsight. At the time, I wondered why they were giving up on Foulke when he seemed to rebound in the 2nd half of last year. I never would have guessed that Koch would have a total meltdown, but I did think at the time that we'd regret giving up Foulke.

Is this another thing we can blame on Manual? Was it his fault that Foulke never got a chance to win back his closer role last year?

I don't get it, he was the one person from the white flag trade that made the embarrassment of the trade worthwhile and the Sox give up on him right away.

Also, did Foulke earlier this year make some comments about how glad he was to be away from the lousy atmosphere in the Sox clubhouse? That's got to tell you something about our team. They showed no heart this year, so I have to wonder about the attitude in our clubhouse.

Hangar18
09-30-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
The thing about the Foulke trade, though, is that it wasn't just questionable in hindsight. At the time, I wondered why they were giving up on Foulke when he seemed to rebound in the 2nd half of last year. I never would have guessed that Koch would have a total meltdown, but I did think at the time that we'd regret giving up Foulke.

Is this another thing we can blame on Manual? Was it his fault that Foulke never got a chance to win back his closer role last year?

I don't get it, he was the one person from the white flag trade that made the embarrassment of the trade worthwhile and the Sox give up on him right away.

Also, did Foulke earlier this year make some comments about how glad he was to be away from the lousy atmosphere in the Sox clubhouse? That's got to tell you something about our team. They showed no heart this year, so I have to wonder about the attitude in our clubhouse.

Only thing I blame on Manuel, in regards to Foulke, was his Constant MisUse of him in situations. There were times when FOULKE DIDNT HAVE IT. and he kept him out there for another Inning (yankee game, Giambi 3run Hr to win game). The Lousy atmosphere in the clubhouse Im always wary of hearing from AFTER they leave the team. Kind of LIke how Sammy is always saying that the Current teams Clubhouse "everyone play together, we fight for each other now, Dat is beeg deeference dis yeeeeer"

Irishsox1
09-30-2003, 02:35 PM
I loved the trade. Koch threw 98 mph fastball and Foulke threw a 81 mph change up. Koch was clearly a closer while every year Foulke talked about being a starter and strggling to find the grip on his change up. However, Billy showed up with no fastball and Oakland has a better orginazation/manager that handels knows how to handle fragile pitchers. In the end Koch was hurt and Oakland had a good year and often bailed Foulke out once he blew a save, very similar to what happened to Koch the year before.

This was a bad trade, but did Oakland sign a guy to a $400,000 contact who won 21 games for them?...No!, it was the Sox, so forget about Foulke, he's a closer and as Billy Beane says, "Closers are a dime a dozen."

Hangar18
09-30-2003, 02:39 PM
good point Irish

soxtalker
09-30-2003, 02:46 PM
I think that the trade said a lot about the philosophy of the Sox organization, which values high velocity (at least in a closer). Beane, as is evident from Moneyball, has a very different philosophy. Strike-outs, control (no walks), and ground balls are valued.

jeremyb1
09-30-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
Is this another thing we can blame on Manual? Was it his fault that Foulke never got a chance to win back his closer role last year?

Its funny you look at it that way because a lot of times I look at problems blamed on Manuel as KW's fault. In my opinion its the job of a good GM to guide his manager. The GM is the boss and theoretically envisions certain roles for players when he acquires him. He needs to make sure his manager puts the players in those roles or the moves become ineffective. It would seem to me like KW wouldn't have a hard time with this because he certainly doesn't seem to be adverse to intervening from some of the stories I've heard.

Foulke seems like a situation where KW should've said to Manuel at some point in the second half of '02 "Don't you think Foulke should be back out there?" If he had considered moving him in the offseason he should've wanted to see if he was still capable of his old role. The fact that he didn't have JM put Foulke back as closer makes me think it was a foregone conclusion we were going to deal Foulke because of one poor half of the season which is a huge blunder in my opinion.

Manuel was blamed for his "handling of the pitching staff" often but in many ways this was unavoidable for him because anytime he had to go to the pen early in the first half he didn't really have anyone he could count on. Part of this was his problem for mishandling Glover so badly but at the same time part of this was KW's fault for paying a questionable reliever like White over a million dollars. This meant Manuel had to give him plenty of chances and go to him ahead of guys like Glover at first. When the GM acquires two relievers in the offseason that are supposed to be two of our top relievers and they completely flop, its not the managers fault for using them. Where else can he go?

gosox41
09-30-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
I loved the trade. Koch threw 98 mph fastball and Foulke threw a 81 mph change up. Koch was clearly a closer while every year Foulke talked about being a starter and strggling to find the grip on his change up. However, Billy showed up with no fastball and Oakland has a better orginazation/manager that handels knows how to handle fragile pitchers. In the end Koch was hurt and Oakland had a good year and often bailed Foulke out once he blew a save, very similar to what happened to Koch the year before.

This was a bad trade, but did Oakland sign a guy to a $400,000 contact who won 21 games for them?...No!, it was the Sox, so forget about Foulke, he's a closer and as Billy Beane says, "Closers are a dime a dozen."

Then why are we paying our alelged closer $6.5 million next season. Can't forget the trade because it hinders the Sox in so many ways.

Bob

JRIG
09-30-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Then why are we paying our alelged closer $6.5 million next season. Can't forget the trade because it hinders the Sox in so many ways.

Bob

Actually, it's **only** $6.375 million for next year. He only was guaranteed 6.5 if he "finished" 65 games in 2003.

Soxboyrob
09-30-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I know I know, Hindsight is always 20/20, looking back its all
a Bit Fuzzy.
But had we not made that Koch for Foulke trade ............and just
Opened up the wallet a little more ..... We Could be complaining about how ESPN relegated us to the NOON game and gave the Cubs PrimeTime.

This is a crock. How many ninth inning saves did the Sox blow this season? 5? 6? It wasn't many, and I think Koch had 4 or 5 of them. If you look up the stats, Gordon and Marte had some leads that they lost in the 7th or 8th, which counted as blown saves but ultimately, Foulke was no more sensational as a closer than what the Sox threw out there, especially after Koch was dispatched to the garbage bin. I'd reverse this godforsaken trade in a minute if I could, but Foulke wasn't a worldbeater this year. I think he blew 4 games in one month that would all have been wins for Hudson. I'd like Foulke back right now, but I don't think he'd make the Sox a much better team....unless he could get a clutch hit or lay down a bunt or steal a base once in a while.

gosox41
10-01-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Actually, it's **only** $6.375 million for next year. He only was guaranteed 6.5 if he "finished" 65 games in 2003.

Then he's a bargain. :) :)

SoxxoS
10-01-2003, 01:04 PM
I will bet that Foulke blows a save somewhere along the line in the playoffs. We all know he tends to choke in big games...

MarkEdward
10-01-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I will bet that Foulke blows a save somewhere along the line in the playoffs. We all know he tends to choke in big games...

Well, at least he's getting a chance to blow a big game, unlike Koch and the Sox...

:smile:

maurice
10-01-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I will bet that Foulke blows a save somewhere along the line in the playoffs. We all know he tends to choke in big games...

:whoflungpoo

mrwag
10-01-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I will bet that Foulke blows a save somewhere along the line in the playoffs. We all know he tends to choke in big games...
Sorta like how our whole team did up in Minneapolis last month.

SoxxoS
10-05-2003, 05:09 PM
Foulke gave up that 2 run double to Ortiz when the A's were up one run in the bottom of the 8th.

maurice your post was the falling poo, obviously. :D:

FarWestChicago
10-05-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Foulke gave up that 2 run double to Ortiz when the A's were up one run in the bottom of the 8th.

maurice your post was the falling poo, obviously. :D: SoxxoS - 1

maurice - 0

maurice
10-14-2003, 01:50 PM
Sorry for the (very) late reply, but (as posted elsewhere) I was out of town last week.

I'm not sure what your position is, West, but the following statement clearly is BS:

We all know he tends to choke in big games. Notwithstanding frequent irrational diatribes to the contrary, it is abundantly clear that Foulke is not a "choker." Foulke clearly is one of the top closers in the AL and has been for several years. This has been proven at length on this board numerous times. Like every other very good closer, Foulke blows a relatively small number of saves. Anybody who expects any closer to have a 0.00 ERA and 0 blown saves (even in "big games") is an imbecile.

If giving up runs in a close playoff game makes a closer a "choker," than Foulke has some pretty good company, such as Eckersley and Smoltz.

poorme
10-14-2003, 01:58 PM
I'm not a foulke apologist, but he did pitch three innings a couple of days earlier. How often has he been called upon to pitch 3 innings one day and 2 innings two days later?

FarWestChicago
10-14-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I'm not sure what your position is, WestMy position is you got asshanded. You called someone out and it blew up in your face. You aren't alone. A different Friend of Foulke had to fess up right in the game thread. :smile:

SoxxoS
10-14-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Sorry for the (very) late reply, but (as posted elsewhere) I was out of town last week.

I'm not sure what your position is, West, but the following statement clearly is BS:

Notwithstanding frequent irrational diatribes to the contrary, it is abundantly clear that Foulke is not a "choker." Foulke clearly is one of the top closers in the AL and has been for several years. This has been proven at length on this board numerous times. Like every other very good closer, Foulke blows a relatively small number of saves. Anybody who expects any closer to have a 0.00 ERA and 0 blown saves (even in "big games") is an imbecile.

If giving up runs in a close playoff game makes a closer a "choker," than Foulke has some pretty good company, such as Eckersley and Smoltz.

Come on. Think about when Foulke was our closer. The one game I remember crystal clear is the game against Minnesota. If that wasn't the biggest choke job, I don't know what is. A lot of people will back me up.

maurice
10-15-2003, 12:07 PM
Well, if you took my (admittedly vague) post as a guarantee that Foulke wouldn't blow a save, I apologize, but this issue has been beaten to death of this board. Again, it's irrational to think that ANY closer would never blow any big games.

The fact that a closer blows a big save doesn't make him a choker. By that definition, EVERY closer on a winning team is a "choker," and no closer on a bad team is a "choker" (since they play no big games). By failing to to look at the big picture, you define the word out of existence. Foulke isn't any more of a "choker" than Eckersley, Smoltz, Rivera, Prior, etc. They're all very good to great pitchers.

There's a reason that a very knowledgable manager chose Foulke to close out the All Star Game, after the vaunted NL pen imploded. It's not cause he sucks.

FarWestChicago
10-15-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Foulke isn't any more of a "choker" than Eckersley, Smoltz, Rivera, Prior, etc. They're all very good to great pitchers.Look at the number of playoff/big game save chances Eck had and blew and compare that to Foulke. I believe you'll find a significantly different ratio. I know, you'll come back with "small sample size". That's a very warm blanket when reality gets a bit cold. :smile:

Originally posted by maurice
There's a reason that a very knowledgable manager chose Foulke to close out the All Star Game, after the vaunted NL pen imploded. It's not cause he sucks. There is no pressure in the All Star game. It's an exhibition. :o:

maurice
10-15-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Look at the number of playoff/big game save chances Eck had and blew and compare that to Foulke.

Knock yourself out. I wouldn't know where to begin. The point is that the greatest closer of all time famously blew a big game and certainly blew some others less famously. All closers on good teams blow big games. The antecdotal evidence is meaningless. Foulke has been one of the top closers in MLB for a long time now. Even though you, Soxxos, and Jerry Manuel :o: disagree, I can't see any objective reason to go along with the minority opinion on this one.

There is no pressure in the All Star game. It's an exhibition. :o:

Tell that to the chokers in the NL pen, who were lights out during the regular season. Besides, didn't you hear? This year "it counts." :D:

GO FISH! :gulp:

FarWestChicago
10-15-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Foulke has been one of the top closers in MLB for a long time now. Even though you, Soxxos, and Jerry Manuel :o: disagree, I can't see any objective reason to go along with the minority opinion on this one. Oh, there are many other Sox fans who were not confident with Foulke on the mound in pressure situations. And there are many thousand A's fans who feel the same way. I don't expect you to agree. All I said was:

SoxxoS - 1

maurice - 0

I realize the sample size is small, but that was and is the score for now. :smile:

maurice
10-15-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Oh, there are many other Sox fans who were not confident with Foulke on the mound in pressure situations.

It seems those folks have learned the error of their ways, particulalrly after their rapture over the Koch trade turned to agony. The anti-Foulke brigade appears to have pared itself down to three. :o:

GO FISH! :gulp: