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Jurr
09-30-2003, 08:23 AM
I'm starting to get a good vibe from what's been said lately by KW. He's going for pitchers, spray hitters, and possibly a manager who knows what to do with 'em (Gaston).
Good lineups honestly don't have 7 guys with 30 homeruns (or that many guys trying to get 30 homeruns). You want around 4 guys with those numbers and 4 or 5 guys with averages around .300.
That's going to win you more games, in my opinion. History dictates such.
In my lifetime, I can't remember a team that really had nothing but mashers. Even the Oakland A's back in the day (1989, etc.) had a good bit of balance with Rickey Henderson, Dave Parker, and Carney Lansford.
If Kenny can get Colon resigned and keep Robbie Alomar, Crede, Lee, Ordonez, Rowand, and Olivo, dump selfish numbers guys like Thomas, Konerko, and Valentin, we're going to be in decent shape. Then, bring in a couple of bats that can get you on base and can move runners over. Keep Gordon, Sullivan, and the rest of the bullpen (minus Koch) and we're talking about a team that can be built on pitching, defense, and some fundamental baseball......a team that can actually win a 3-2 ballgame against the Twins.
Cito Gaston is a man that thrives on accountability. If you screw up, he's on you. That helps out a ton. We'll see how this goes, but I'm thinking they may try to (fiscally) make a run at something good for next year.

hold2dibber
09-30-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
I'm starting to get a good vibe from what's been said lately by KW. He's going for pitchers, spray hitters, and possibly a manager who knows what to do with 'em (Gaston).
Good lineups honestly don't have 7 guys with 30 homeruns (or that many guys trying to get 30 homeruns). You want around 4 guys with those numbers and 4 or 5 guys with averages around .300.
That's going to win you more games, in my opinion. History dictates such.
In my lifetime, I can't remember a team that really had nothing but mashers. Even the Oakland A's back in the day (1989, etc.) had a good bit of balance with Rickey Henderson, Dave Parker, and Carney Lansford.
If Kenny can get Colon resigned and keep Robbie Alomar, Crede, Lee, Ordonez, Rowand, and Olivo, dump selfish numbers guys like Thomas, Konerko, and Valentin, we're going to be in decent shape. Then, bring in a couple of bats that can get you on base and can move runners over. Keep Gordon, Sullivan, and the rest of the bullpen (minus Koch) and we're talking about a team that can be built on pitching, defense, and some fundamental baseball......a team that can actually win a 3-2 ballgame against the Twins.
Cito Gaston is a man that thrives on accountability. If you screw up, he's on you. That helps out a ton. We'll see how this goes, but I'm thinking they may try to (fiscally) make a run at something good for next year.

I'm confused. You say we need guys who can get on base, but then say you want to dump Frank and kep guys like Crede, Lee, Rowand and Olivo. Have you actually looked at the numbers? Frank gets on base at a higher clip than ANYBODY on this team. He gets on base a ton and he hits a lot of home runs. He also does not have the GIDP problems that plague Maggs, PK and Carlos. It absolutely astounds me how many people simply shrug off his contribution with the simple and entirely ridiculous claim that "all he cares about is his numbers." Of course, unless you and he are close personal acquantances, you don't know if that's true. But even if it were, who gives a flying frig? Frank is an offensive force who cannot easily be replaced.

I personally don't think the Sox need to make a lot of personnel changes - they just need a manager (as you suggest) who makes them accountable and who motivates them to focus and perform for 162 games. Of course, in reality the personnel is going to change (and somewhat dramatically) because of payroll issues. But I'm not in favor of getting a bunch of scrapy guys who are not very good to replace the guys we have.

cornball
09-30-2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
I'm starting to get a good vibe from what's been said lately by KW. He's going for pitchers, spray hitters, and possibly a manager who knows what to do with 'em (Gaston).
Good lineups honestly don't have 7 guys with 30 homeruns (or that many guys trying to get 30 homeruns). You want around 4 guys with those numbers and 4 or 5 guys with averages around .300.
That's going to win you more games, in my opinion. History dictates such.
In my lifetime, I can't remember a team that really had nothing but mashers. Even the Oakland A's back in the day (1989, etc.) had a good bit of balance with Rickey Henderson, Dave Parker, and Carney Lansford.
If Kenny can get Colon resigned and keep Robbie Alomar, Crede, Lee, Ordonez, Rowand, and Olivo, dump selfish numbers guys like Thomas, Konerko, and Valentin, we're going to be in decent shape. Then, bring in a couple of bats that can get you on base and can move runners over. Keep Gordon, Sullivan, and the rest of the bullpen (minus Koch) and we're talking about a team that can be built on pitching, defense, and some fundamental baseball......a team that can actually win a 3-2 ballgame against the Twins.
Cito Gaston is a man that thrives on accountability. If you screw up, he's on you. That helps out a ton. We'll see how this goes, but I'm thinking they may try to (fiscally) make a run at something good for next year.


I have to say I agree with alot of what you say. I think KW has done a great job as GM, outside of the Richie trade and the Durham trade in which we gave up too much, I have agreed with most of his moves. Now, seems to be saying the right things by todays trib. Something to be excited about.

Kilroy
09-30-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Frank gets on base at a higher clip than ANYBODY on this team. He gets on base a ton and he hits a lot of home runs. He also does not have the GIDP problems that plague Maggs, PK and Carlos. It absolutely astounds me how many people simply shrug off his contribution with the simple and entirely ridiculous claim that "all he cares about is his numbers."



http://www.angelfire.com/80s/metalscene/images/CINDERELLA.jpg
"Don't know whatcha got, til it's gone..."

hold2dibber
09-30-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
http://www.angelfire.com/80s/metalscene/images/CINDERELLA.jpg
"Don't know whatcha got, til it's gone..."

Egads! A '80's hair metal power pop ballad reference - that's got to be a first on this board.

I sure as hell hope Frank doesn't leave. But I'm pretty sure that if he does not exercise his $6 million option, the Sox won't exercise the $8 million option, and he'll be gone - although if Colon does not accept the Sox' offer, that may not be true. If Colon accepts the Sox' offer, the Sox will need to trim about 15 million from the payroll, I think. And that alone would probably be reason enough for them to let him walk (although, IMHO, it would make more sense to trade Carlos, because his value is at its peak and that way you get something back).

Nick@Nite
09-30-2003, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Egads! A '80's hair metal power pop ballad reference - that's got to be a first on this board.

:b&b
heh, heh... huh, huh...

Tragg
09-30-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
I'm starting to get a good vibe from what's been said lately by KW. He's going for pitchers, spray hitters, and possibly a manager who knows what to do with 'em (Gaston).
Good lineups honestly don't have 7 guys with 30 homeruns (or that many guys trying to get 30 homeruns). You want around 4 guys with those numbers and 4 or 5 guys with averages around .300.
.

If he's looking at BAs, we won' improve. He needs to look at OBP. Walks count. But when you keep sandy alomar on your team, for whom 10 walks a season is a minor miracle, walks aren't high on your totem pole.
Frank remains one of the best in the league in that department.

bc2k
10-01-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'm confused. You say we need guys who can get on base, but then say you want to dump Frank and kep guys like Crede, Lee, Rowand and Olivo. Have you actually looked at the numbers? Frank gets on base at a higher clip than ANYBODY on this team. He gets on base a ton and he hits a lot of home runs. It absolutely astounds me how many people simply shrug off his contribution with the simple and entirely ridiculous claim that "all he cares about is his numbers." Frank is an offensive force who cannot easily be replaced.

I took your suggestion (directed at someone else) and looked up 2003 OBP. Frank was 12th in the league reaching base at a .389 pace; Magglio 14th at .381; Everett 22nd at .366.

Why is OBP important? Because the more often a player gets on base, the better odds your team has of scoring that man. But what if that man is not a good baserunner? Then his OBP value is lower than a good baserunner at the same OBP.

Frank is a terrible baserunner. He cannot advance first to third, nor second to home on singles with less than 2 outs. He is the epitome of station-to-station baserunning. Farmer has pointed out numerous times that Thomas usually advances bases equal to that of the man hitting the ball into play. My point is, Frank's OBP is not as valuable as most think since he cannot score as much as the average baserunner will.

When evaluating Frank's OBP, we must also consider that his OBP will only decline since he has changed his batting strategy, and thus, score even fewer runs. (I failed to find month-to-month OBP stats to compare Frank's OBP early in the season when he was not solely trying for homers, to after he declared to the public he was going for homers and not OBP). With a full 2004 season of going for the homer at the expense of OBP, his 2004 OBP will be lower than his 2003.

My goal here is to get others to look at OBP and runs as a pair. The man who finished 22nd in the league in OBP, Carl Everett, scored 93 runs while the 12th in the league, Frank Thomas, scored 6 less runs (87). So although Everett got on base less often than Thomas in 2003, he scored more often. Look for Everett to widen that gap in 2004 as Frank has an entire year of homers-first strategy under his belt. Also worth noting, Magglio's OBP was .008 less than Franks, but Magglio scored 8 more times than Frank.

So keep Everett over Thomas. He'll score more, hit at a higher average, run the bases better, will play above average defense, provide a productive left-handed bat, and won't choke during the most important games of the season.

voodoochile
10-01-2003, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I took your suggestion (directed at someone else) and looked up 2003 OBP. Frank was 12th in the league reaching base at a .389 pace; Magglio 14th at .381; Everett 22nd at .366.

Why is OBP important? Because the more often a player gets on base, the better odds your team has of scoring that man. But what if that man is not a good baserunner? Then his OBP value is lower than a good baserunner at the same OBP.

Frank is a terrible baserunner. He cannot advance first to third, nor second to home on singles with less than 2 outs. He is the epitome of station-to-station baserunning. Farmer has pointed out numerous times that Thomas usually advances bases equal to that of the man hitting the ball into play. My point is, Frank's OBP is not as valuable as most think since he cannot score as much as the average baserunner will.

When evaluating Frank's OBP, we must also consider that his OBP will only decline since he has changed his batting strategy, and thus, score even fewer runs. (I tried to find month-to-month OBP stats to compare Frank's OBP early in the season when he was not solely trying for homers, to after he declared to the public he was going for homers and not OBP). With a full 2004 season of going for the homer at the expense of OBP, his OBP will be lower.

My goal here is to get others to look at OBP and runs as a pair. The man who finished 22nd in the league in OBP, Carl Everett, scored 93 runs while the 12th in the league, Frank Thomas, scored 6 less runs (87). So although Everett got on less often than Thomas in 2003, he scored more often. Look for Everett to widen that gap in 2004 as Frank has an entire year of homers-first strategy under his belt. Also worth noting, Magglio's OBP was .008 less than Franks, but Magglio scored 8 more times than Frank.

So keep Everett over Thomas. He'll score more, hit at a higher average, run the bases better, will play above average defense, and won't choke during the most important games of the season.

:whoflungpoo

*****! So it's now Frank's fault that the guys behind him can't drive him in. You guys kill me. Maybe instead of dumping Frank, they should get some guys who won't smack two-hoppers to the SS to bat behind him...

BTW, you must not have looked very hard for those month by month splits, they are listed on ESPN.

Here they are:

APR: .429
MAY: .368
JUN: .468
JUL: .314
AUG: .373
SEP: .382

And here's the link to prove I'm not making it up. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=4527)

So, all things considered he had one below average month and though his OBP was .040 points higher pre-AS break than after, it is interesting to note that his best month was June when he almost carried the whole team offensively and spent a good chunk of time at 1B. (shocking, I know...)

bc2k
10-01-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:whoflungpoo

*****! So it's now Frank's fault that the guys behind him can't drive him in. You guys kill me. Maybe instead of dumping Frank, they should get some guys who won't smack two-hoppers to the SS to bat behind him...[/COLOR])

Who flung poo? You tell me: I'm not the one with my lips on Frank's fat tush.

So you don't think Frank's station-to-station running has anything to do with his low run total?

Another big part of Frank's OBP is that he is often only getting to first base due to all his walks. It's not like Frank is stranded on third base after leading off with triples. This is a huge problem for Frank and the Sox since it is very difficult to score Thomas from first because of his bad baserunning.

Look at this common situation: Frank walks; Magglio singles to right field advancing Thomas to second when an average runner (like Carl Everett) would often make third base. First and third and no out is a big difference from first and second because even a Konerko DP drives in a run with a runner on third. A Konerko sacrifice fly can score an average runner from third but obviously cannot score Thomas from second base.

Or you can just blame Magglio and Konerko for not hitting two run home runs after every Frank walk.

Originally posted by voodoochile

BTW, you must not have looked very hard for those month by month splits, they are listed on ESPN.

Here they are:

APR: .429
MAY: .368
JUN: .468
JUL: .314
AUG: .373
SEP: .382

And here's the link to prove I'm not making it up. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=4527)

So, all things considered he had one below average month and though his OBP was .040 points higher pre-AS break than after, it is interesting to note that his best month was June when he almost carried the whole team offensively and spent a good chunk of time at 1B. (shocking, I know...)

Thanks for the monthly OBP stats.

Bottom line stat: Carl Everett on first (or any other base) is more beneficial to the Sox than Thomas. IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO SCORE FRANK FROM FIRST BASE! Especially if there is at least one out in the inning.

bc2k
10-01-2003, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
*****! So it's now Frank's fault that the guys behind him can't drive him in. You guys kill me. Maybe instead of dumping Frank, they should get some guys who won't smack two-hoppers to the SS to bat behind him...



Originally posted by bc2k
Magglio's OBP was .008 less than Franks, but Magglio scored 8 more times than Frank.


Voodoo, you say in your above quote that Frank doesn't score because the guys behind him don't drive him in. Well, the guy who hit behind him, Magglio, hit .321. Yet Magglio, with a lower OBP than Frank, scored 8 more times than Frank with inferior hitters hitting behind him. Imagine how many more runs Magglio would have scored with a hitter behind him that almost won a batting title like Frank had.

If OBP is King, then baserunning is its Queen, and Thomas has been running stag for a few years now. Time for the Sox to fold this hand called Thomas.

FarWestChicago
10-01-2003, 02:39 AM
Must be the offseason. We're being subjected to bc2k's Annual Anti-Frank Nutso Campaign. :o:

davenicholson
10-01-2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
http://www.angelfire.com/80s/metalscene/images/CINDERELLA.jpg
"Don't know whatcha got, til it's gone..."


For us old guys, I think you really meant:

http://www.rook4.freeserve.co.uk/joni.jpg
Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got `til it's gone?

RichH55
10-01-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Must be the offseason. We're being subjected to bc2k's Annual Anti-Frank Nutso Campaign. :o:

ALways good times

maurice
10-01-2003, 12:30 PM
You're missing the OTHER reason OBP is important. The object of offensive baseball is to score as many runs as possible before your team makes 27 outs. A player credited with reaching base (thereby improving his OBP) does not make an out. All too familiar sequence this season: Frank walks with less than two outs :smile: and Maggs (or Paulie or CLee) hits into a double play :angry: . That's 0 outs for Frank and 2 outs for the guy who was supposed to drive him in.

FarWestChicago
10-01-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by maurice
You're missing the OTHER reason OBP is important. The object of offensive baseball is to score as many runs as possible before your team makes 27 outs. A player credited with reaching base (thereby improving his OBP) does not make an out. All too familiar sequence this season: Frank walks with less than two outs :smile: and Maggs (or Paulie or CLee) hits into a double play :angry: . That's 0 outs for Frank and 2 outs for the guy who was supposed to drive him in. bc2k impression:

"It's all Frank's fault. If he wasn't 789 pounds and was as fast as Carl Lewis he wouldn't be doubled up. The only reason the other guys hit gimme grounders to the shortstop is they KNOW if they hit a double Frank won't score so there is no reason for them to try."

voodoochile
10-01-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
bc2k impression:

"It's all Frank's fault. If he wasn't 789 pounds and was as fast as Carl Lewis he wouldn't be doubled up. The only reason the other guys hit gimme grounders to the shortstop is they KNOW if they hit a double Frank won't score so there is no reason for them to try."

And of course he hit 42 HR but only drove in 105 RBI and scored 87 runs, which of course is Frank's fault for only hitting solo homers and not doing enough to get the guys who follow him to drive him in or cause the guys in front of him to get on base more. Of course Carlos Lee's career year had NOTHING to do with him hitting in front of Frank for most of the year.

The argument might make more sense if bc2K hadn't been so adament about hating Frank in the past. But how many guys who have an OPS as high as Frank are also fast on the basepaths. There are maybe 5 guys in all of baseball that live up to those expectations and I am guessing here, so that number is probably too high. I guess it really is Frank's fault that he can't single handedly cause the Sox to win every game.

Deadguy
10-01-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by bc2k

My goal here is to get others to look at OBP and runs as a pair. The man who finished 22nd in the league in OBP, Carl Everett, scored 93 runs while the 12th in the league, Frank Thomas, scored 6 less runs (87). So although Everett got on base less often than Thomas in 2003, he scored more often.

That's somewhat misleading, since 52 of those runs were scored for Texas, where he batted leadoff or hit second in the lineup.

He also hit in front of the likes of Alex Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro, and Juan Gonzalez, so even with a rather modest OBP, it stands to reason that he'd score a lot of runs.

This is why you can't look at Runs and OBP in pairs. There are many factors involved as to why Thomas scored fewer runs than Everett this year, and some of those factors may not be lack of speed.

voodoochile
10-01-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
This is why you can't look at Runs and OBP in pairs. There are many factors involved as to why Thomas scored fewer runs than Everett this year, and some of those factors may not be lack of speed.

:walnuts
"What are you looking at? I did my part by smacking groundball after groundball to the SS and then limping to first."

bc2k
10-01-2003, 02:43 PM
Yes, Magglio and Konerko grounded into too many double play balls this season. You guys have no problem repeatedly pointing out their faults. But Thomas OTOH, receives no such candid talk of his faults. When I make a legitimate criticism in Frank's game with statistics, I get dismissed because of my feelings of Frank past. But what's more troubling is all of your blind refusal to discuss or admit a MAJOR flaw in Thomas's game. You guys talk about Cubs fans and their "messiah," but you guys are the same way with a far inferior player.

voodoochile
10-01-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Yes, Magglio and Konerko grounded into too many double play balls this season. You guys have no problem repeatedly pointing out their faults. But Thomas OTOH, receives no such candid talk of his faults. When I make a legitimate criticism in Frank's game with statistics, I get dismissed because of my feelings of Frank past. But what's more troubling is all of your blind refusal to discuss or admit a MAJOR flaw in Thomas's game. You guys talk about Cubs fans and their "messiah," but you guys are the same way with a far inferior player.

See, I just don't see that as a major flaw. I don't expect my powerhitting 3-5 place hitters to be fast on the basepaths too. Sure, it would be great if Frank could do it all, but I would rather have a station to station Frank than no Frank at all.

Iwritecode
10-01-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Yes, Magglio and Konerko grounded into too many double play balls this season. You guys have no problem repeatedly pointing out their faults. But Thomas OTOH, receives no such candid talk of his faults. When I make a legitimate criticism in Frank's game with statistics, I get dismissed because of my feelings of Frank past. But what's more troubling is all of your blind refusal to discuss or admit a MAJOR flaw in Thomas's game. You guys talk about Cubs fans and their "messiah," but you guys are the same way with a far inferior player.

You actually think that getting on base and then not being fast enough to go from first to third on a single is a flaw?

I think the flaw is the inablity of the guys batting behind him to drive him in, no matter what his speed is.

IIRC, Maggs and Paulie were in the top ten of the MLB for GIDPs.

But I guess having slow-footed Frank in front of them was the cause of that...

Deadguy
10-01-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Yes, Magglio and Konerko grounded into too many double play balls this season. You guys have no problem repeatedly pointing out their faults. But Thomas OTOH, receives no such candid talk of his faults. When I make a legitimate criticism in Frank's game with statistics, I get dismissed because of my feelings of Frank past. But what's more troubling is all of your blind refusal to discuss or admit a MAJOR flaw in Thomas's game.

Thomas' lack of speed is a flaw, but it's an inherent one that isn't going to change.

You don't see Houston fans bashing Craig Biggio because he's never hit 30 homeruns or walked 100 times. He's obviously not that kind of player, but that shouldn't diminish his value to the team.

bc2k
10-01-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


See, I just don't see that as a major flaw. I don't expect my powerhitting 3-5 place hitters to be fast on the basepaths too. Sure, it would be great if Frank could do it all, but I would rather have a station to station Frank than no Frank at all.

Let's not confuse speed with fundamental baserunning. And let's not group all power hitters as station-to-station baserunners. Thomas's baserunning is poor even when compared with other 3-5 hitters.

Originally posted by Deadguy


Thomas' lack of speed is a flaw, but it's an inherent one that isn't going to change.

You don't see Houston fans bashing Craig Biggio because he's never hit 30 homeruns or walked 100 times. He's obviously not that kind of player, but that shouldn't diminish his value to the team.

This argument sucks. Are Houston fans perfection and the standard on how each team must judge their players? Biggio, to my knowledge, is a well-rounded player who is not ranked in the bottom in any category like Thomas and his baserunning.

You cannot expect Biggio to hit 30 home runs a year since he's the leadoff hitter. But all players, even power hitters like Thomas, must be expected to play fundamentally. And baserunning is a fundamental skill.

It is not Thomas's speed that is the cause of poor baserunning. Plenty of men with similar speed can advance bases at a respectable rate.

Thomas's baserunning is not an inherent problem; he has the ability to run the bases better than he has been. He can start by taking a lead off the base.

voodoochile
10-01-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Let's not confuse speed with fundamental baserunning. And let's not group all power hitters as station-to-station baserunners. Thomas's baserunning is poor even when compared with other 3-5 hitters.

Right, so let's dump the best or second best hitter on the team because he isn't that great on the basepaths. Do you really believe the stuff you type?

Deadguy
10-01-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by bc2k

It is not Thomas's speed that is the cause of poor baserunning. Plenty of men with similar speed can advance bases at a respectable rate.

Thomas's baserunning is not an inherent problem; he has the ability to run the bases better than he has been. He can start by taking a lead off the base.

Your belief that Thomas is a poor baserunner is simply opinion based, not factual.

bc2k
10-01-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Right, so let's dump the best or second best hitter on the team because he isn't that great on the basepaths. Do you really believe the stuff you type?

I don't want to dump him to dump him. It's just that I'd rather keep Carl Everett in right field after we trade Magglio and Valentin for AROD.

Originally posted by Deadguy


Your belief that Thomas is a poor baserunner is simply opinion based, not factual.

What is your opinion of Thomas's baserunning skills? Do you see no value in advancing on the basepaths?

gosox41
10-01-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I don't want to dump him to dump him. It's just that I'd rather keep Carl Everett in right field after we trade Magglio and Valentin for AROD.



What is your opinion of Thomas's baserunning skills? Do you see no value in advancing on the basepaths?

I don't think Thomas' base running is that bad. He is definitely a smart base runner. I can think of 1 or 2 times this season where he had a brain cramp. Compare that to Carlos Lee or Jose Valentin (who are both faster) and it's meaningless.

Thomas and his .390 OBP more then make up for his lack of being able to take an extra base once in awhile. You have to realize the effect Thomas has by getting on base at such a high rate. It puts pressure on the pitcher. The fact that Thomas is third in the AL in number of pitches seen helps wear a pitcher down plus makes players on the Sox more aware of what is/isn't working for the pitcher that day.

Thomas value on this team is huge. If the Sox had 9 guys who could get on base at even a .350 clip, this team is in the playoffs right now after having whizzed through the season. Instead the Sox are stuck with guys who can't situational hit and ground into way too many DP's and Thomas is the one who is blamed for that for some unknown reason.

Bob

bc2k
10-01-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I don't want to dump him to dump him. It's just that I'd rather keep Carl Everett in right field after we trade Magglio and Valentin for AROD.

I take that back, I never said I want Thomas gone. After we make that above trade:

1. Alomar
2. Lee
3. AROD
4. Everett
5. Thomas
6. Konerko
7. Rowand
8. Crede
9. Olivo

voodoochile
10-01-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I take that back, I never said I want Thomas gone. After we make that above trade:

1. Alomar
2. Lee
3. AROD
4. Everett
5. Thomas
6. Konerko
7. Rowand
8. Crede
9. Olivo

Since Valentin's option didn't kick in, I don't think the Sox cannot trade him.

I still don't understand why you want Everett over Frank though. Even if Everett is a better baserunner, Frank's OPS was .100 points higher this season. You can't tell me that the extra 10 bases a year Everett manages by being faster are more valuable than that.

Deadguy
10-01-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by bc2k

What is your opinion of Thomas's baserunning skills? Do you see no value in advancing on the basepaths?

I believe Thomas is a smart baserunner who knows his limitations.

But again, his lack of aggressiveness ties into his lack of speed, so they are related.

I have seen a few times this year where he has ignored the third base coach, and run through stop signs, and then get thrown out at the plate. In that area, I'd like to see him improve.

But this is all open to interpretation. I'm admitidley biased, so my opinion is no more valid than yours.

However, it's not as clear cut as looking at Paul Konerko's GIDP totals, and saying that he grounds into a lot of double plays.

gosox41
10-01-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I believe Thomas is a smart baserunner who knows his limitations.

But again, his lack of aggressiveness ties into his lack of speed, so they are related.

I have seen a few times this year where he has ignored the third base coach, and run through stop signs, and then get thrown out at the plate. In that area, I'd like to see him improve.

But this is all open to interpretation. I'm admitidley biased, so my opinion is no more valid than yours.

However, it's not as clear cut as looking at Paul Konerko's GIDP totals, and saying that he grounds into a lot of double plays.

If Thomas knows his limitiations then it's a good thing. It means he's not getting thrown out a lot or making base running blunders.


Bob

bc2k
10-01-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Since Valentin's option didn't kick in, I don't think the Sox cannot trade him.

I still don't understand why you want Everett over Frank though. Even if Everett is a better baserunner, Frank's OPS was .100 points higher this season. You can't tell me that the extra 10 bases a year Everett manages by being faster are more valuable than that.

Sorry, wasn't sure if Valentin got the at bats or not.

I don't prefer Everett over Thomas solely on his superior baserunning. That opinion was formed by Everett's superior skills of batting average, 2-strike hitting, above average defense, above average arm, higher run total, and let's not underestimate the importance of his powerful left-handed bat in such a righty-dominated Sox lineup. He is a gamer, a man who holds winning above personal statistics. HE SHOWS UP IN SEPTEMBER! He shows up in the biggest games of the year unlike Thomas.

With Everett over Thomas the Sox have one less station-to-station player. And the biggest stat Frank brings to the team, OBP, will be lower next season due to his new approach at the plate. Everett is a winner; Thomas is a loser.

FarmerAndy
10-01-2003, 05:06 PM
Why even argue about Everett vs. Thomas???

The best thing for the team would be to have them both here. Konerko is the weakest link here, and he's a bigger burden on the payroll.

I know getting rid of Konerko may not be an option, because not many teams want to pay millions of dollars to aquire a bad ballplayer. But if anybody can make an argument as to why it would be in the Sox best interest to keep Konerko over either Thomas or Everett, I'll listen. (and then I'll laugh at you!)

Deadguy
10-01-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
He is a gamer, a man who holds winning above personal statistics. HE SHOWS UP IN SEPTEMBER! He shows up in the biggest games of the year unlike Thomas.

Everett is a winner; Thomas is a loser.

Where was Everett in July, when he hit just .241 with 1 HR and 6 RBIs? Was he just not interested in winning then? Those games count just as much in the standings.

And I'd hardly say his September was outstanding. His best month here was clearly August.

bc2k
10-01-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Where was Everett in July, when he hit just .241 with 1 HR and 6 RBIs? Was he just not interested in winning then? Those games count just as much in the standings.

And I'd hardly say his September was outstanding. His best month here was clearly August.

Those games do count just as much in the standings but are not equal in importance. Take the late September series in Minny, Everett showed up and produced when few did. We learned a lot about the man's character and ability in big games - offensively and defensively. We learned what the man is made of. Everett ain't the type of guy to go 0-9 in the playoffs. Producing when it matters is much more important than at any other time.

In the playoffs, there is no room for slumps because every game can end or prolong your season. Come playoff time, you're not going to care what Everett hit in July, but what he'll hit that day. As the Hawk says, "Don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it."

Jurr
10-01-2003, 08:03 PM
An Ideal lineup, IMHO, would consist of:

1.Alomar: Still has a couple of productive years ahead

2.SS #1: No idea here. We don't need Jose anymore. We need a consistent table setter, someone who can give us a .275-.300 BA and can hit around 10-15 homers.

3.Carlos Lee: He can definitely take up Frank's slack in the 3 hole.

4.Maggs: Too talented to let go.

5.Everett: Put Carl at DH. We need his fire and he would definitely step up more if he had an extra year to jell with the guys. He's got good numbers for the 5 hole.

6.Daubach: I am going to get crucified by this one, but the guy can put up pretty decent numbers given a full season, and he'll be hungry for next year. If he puts up the 20 homers he's been averaging in a year, that's all we need out of the 6 hole. I honestly think the lack of ABs really bothered him.

7. Crede: Still developing as a ballplayer, and he's going to be special.

8. Aaron Rowand: See Joe Crede: I think Rowand regressed at the beginning of the year due to his injury. He was clutch at times, such as the time when he hit the 2 run bomb in the sixth against the Cubs. Solid defensively and can get on base.

9. Olivo: Can do nothing wrong defensively...can improve a ton offensively, and we expect nothing less.


With that lineup, we can win games offensively and defensively. No defensive liabilities, and we can dump some salary for our pitching staff. We would need to get a good shortstop, though, someone that could pick up some clutch hits and move runners over. More of a team attitude would help this lineup, and I think we would have a good blend of character guys and youth.
Since 2000, I think Frank's star has tarnished. In clutch situations, Thomas has been unable to produce (except for a couple of times when he'd rocket a homer).....that's just not going to cut it, especially when he would string together 20 at bats with popouts. Having guys like Thomas and Konerko in the middle of your lineup is a cancer. They make a lineup extremely dangerous when they're on, but they're not on enough to warrant keeping 'em. Maggs and Lee are examples of a guys that you want. They know when they're not seeing the ball well, and they adjust to get on base. Thomas and Konerko just don't seem to budge on that approach. I saw Maggs drop his hands on a fastball and punch it into a hole so much more than Frank ever thought of.
I have loved having Frank on this ball team, and it would suck seeing him on another team. However, he's just not suited for the type of offense that the Sox have. We've got enough mashing to go around on this team. Balance is the name of the game, and we're in dire straits without it. Otherwise, it's rollercoaster time in Chicago. 8 wins in a row when they're hitting homers, then 8 losses when they're not.

Daver
10-01-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
No defensive liabilities,

Lee,Rowand,and Daubach are all defensive liabilities.

Jurr
10-01-2003, 08:19 PM
I see Rowand as a big help defensively!!! Lee is a million times better than he ever was before, and you have a point in Daubach. He's no John Olerud. 1 out of 3 ain't bad, though, Daver!

Daver
10-01-2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
I see Rowand as a big help defensively!!! Lee is a million times better than he ever was before, and you have a point in Daubach. He's no John Olerud. 1 out of 3 ain't bad, though, Daver!

The next time Rowand reads a ball well off the bat will be his first,that is not a big help if you ask me.Carlos Lee has improved,from terrible to average at best,and most of his improvement has come from playing at the warning track for everyone that comes to the plate,and Daubach is a worse firstbaseman than Frank.

bc2k
10-01-2003, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
2.SS #1: No idea here. We don't need Jose anymore. We need a consistent table setter, someone who can give us a .275-.300 BA and can hit around 10-15 homers.





"Hey Jurr, I can hit .275 with 15 homers while consistently setting the table, all while playing the best defense in the game. Rescue me from this rebuilding mode and let me and Robbie turn 2 so often, you'd think Konerko was hitting for the other team. Plus, I'll get your boy Royce out of the Sox record books by topping his season fielding percentage record."

Honestly guys, I would love to see such a professional as Omar play for our Sox, especially when you consider that we don't have many other SS options. Granted his salary is high, but I'd bet the Indians would let him go for peanuts as they are already going young and wouldn't mind cutting more salary.

FarmerAndy
10-02-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Honestly guys, I would love to see such a professional as Omar play for our Sox, especially when you consider that we don't have many other SS options. Granted his salary is high, but I'd bet the Indians would let him go for peanuts as they are already going young and wouldn't mind cutting more salary.

Well bc2k, I haven't agreed with much of what you've said on this this thread. But this is the best idea I have heard in a long time.

Being in the same league as A-Rod and Nomar, Omar doesn't get alot of publicity. I think he's the best defensive SS out there. He doesn't put up huge offensive #'s, but he can make things happen. Kenny should really look into it.