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Lip Man 1
09-30-2003, 12:38 AM
This has appeared for the first time tonight in a story by Teddy Greenstein for the Tribune:

"Williams has said repeatedly he believes the Sox had enough talent to win the AL Central and thrive in October. But Manuel indicated last week he didn't necessarily agree with that.

"I think a lot of times, clubs are guilty of evaluating their personnel as what it should be potentially," he said. "A lot of times that's a trap. You say, 'We should, we should, we should.' But if you study it and evaluate it and check it out seriously, you might come up with something a little different. I'll just leave that like that."

I'm taking from this quote that Manuel wanted to play small ball, National League ball...bunt, steal, hit and run but couldn't because of all the brain dead slow footed sluggers the Sox had assembled.

Greenstein's story has some other interesting quotes and revelations (including about how Williams hates grounding into double plays...) and includes the comment from Williams that previous major league experience for a manager is a plus but NOT a necessity. (I feel another cheap hire coming on...) That's why almost the entire coaching staff was retained.

Lip

Win1ForMe
09-30-2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Greenstein's story has some other interesting quotes and revelations (including about how Williams hates grounding into double plays...) and includes the comment from Williams that previous major league experience for a manager is a plus but NOT a necessity. (I feel another cheap hire coming on...) That's why almost the entire coaching staff was retained.

Lip

I actually thought the Sox were thinking big for a change. Now I'm just shaking my head. Same old Sox...
:(:

DrCrawdad
09-30-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This has appeared for the first time tonight in a story by Teddy Greenstein for the Tribune:

"Williams has said repeatedly he believes the Sox had enough talent to win the AL Central and thrive in October. But Manuel indicated last week he didn't necessarily agree with that.

"I think a lot of times, clubs are guilty of evaluating their personnel as what it should be potentially," he said. "A lot of times that's a trap. You say, 'We should, we should, we should.' But if you study it and evaluate it and check it out seriously, you might come up with something a little different. I'll just leave that like that."

I'm taking from this quote that Manuel wanted to play small ball, National League ball...bunt, steal, hit and run but couldn't because of all the brain dead slow footed sluggers the Sox had assembled.

Greenstein's story has some other interesting quotes and revelations (including about how Williams hates grounding into double plays...) and includes the comment from Williams that previous major league experience for a manager is a plus but NOT a necessity. (I feel another cheap hire coming on...) That's why almost the entire coaching staff was retained.

Lip

There was some question earlier here at WSI as to whether or not the coaching staff was retained with the new manager saddled with this group.

Greenstein feels, like I do, that the new manager is stuck with these guys like it or not. Also that LaRussa is NOT going to be managing the Sox at any time so.

I'm not completely against hiring someone without MLB managing experience. It seems to be working in MN and KC. This manager needs to be the best guy, MLB experience or not. This is not the time to trot out a Terry Bevington or Paul Richards.

bc2k
09-30-2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This has appeared for the first time tonight in a story by Teddy Greenstein for the Tribune:

"Williams has said repeatedly he believes the Sox had enough talent to win the AL Central and thrive in October. But Manuel indicated last week he didn't necessarily agree with that.

"I think a lot of times, clubs are guilty of evaluating their personnel as what it should be potentially," he said. "A lot of times that's a trap. You say, 'We should, we should, we should.' But if you study it and evaluate it and check it out seriously, you might come up with something a little different. I'll just leave that like that."

I'm taking from this quote that Manuel wanted to play small ball, National League ball...bunt, steal, hit and run but couldn't because of all the brain dead slow footed sluggers the Sox had assembled.

Greenstein's story has some other interesting quotes and revelations (including about how Williams hates grounding into double plays...) and includes the comment from Williams that previous major league experience for a manager is a plus but NOT a necessity. (I feel another cheap hire coming on...) That's why almost the entire coaching staff was retained.

Lip

I don't understand Manuel's quote. What players didn't reach their 2003 expectations? Konerko and Koch are the only ones I think of. I think their underachieving is compensated by Loaiza's gross overexpectation and the additions of Everett and Alomar. I thought everyone else played to expectations in 2003.

At first read of the quote I'd guess Manuel is covering his behind, deflecting blame on others. But I don't think that is JM's style. I think he truly believes his quote, but I need some help figuring who underachieved.

DrCrawdad
09-30-2003, 01:00 AM
Williams offered little, other than when he responded to a question about whether he feels pressure to bring in a high-profile manager to counter the Cubs' hiring of Dusty Baker.

"You can't fall into that trap," he said. "You have to get the best guy available for your situation. [But] if there were a Dusty Jr. out there, he would be the target."

Kenny, Darren Baker is already in Chicago and he has post-season experience.

dugwood31
09-30-2003, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I don't understand Manuel's quote. What players didn't reach their 2003 expectations? Konerko and Koch are the only ones I think of. I think their underachieving is compensated by Loaiza's gross overexpectation and the additions of Everett and Alomar. I thought everyone else played to expectations in 2003.

At first read of the quote I'd guess Manuel is covering his behind, deflecting blame on others. But I don't think that is JM's style. I think he truly believes his quote, but I need some help figuring who underachieved.


My guess is KW might have had unrealistically high expectations for Crede, Olivo, Rowand and Garland this year. They didn't really underachieve, they just didn't get over the hump.

LASOXFAN
09-30-2003, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This has appeared for the first time tonight in a story by Teddy Greenstein for the Tribune:

"Williams has said repeatedly he believes the Sox had enough talent to win the AL Central and thrive in October. But Manuel indicated last week he didn't necessarily agree with that.

"I think a lot of times, clubs are guilty of evaluating their personnel as what it should be potentially," he said. "A lot of times that's a trap. You say, 'We should, we should, we should.' But if you study it and evaluate it and check it out seriously, you might come up with something a little different. I'll just leave that like that."
Lip

I'm with Jerry on this one. He's got a point. My point as a fan is that Manuel never took that potential and turned it into anything. If everyone played up to their potential then managing would be the easiest job in the world.

Nice try, Jerry. Could you leave the key to your office on the desk? Thanks. Bubba here will walk you out.

bc2k
09-30-2003, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by dugwood31
My guess is KW might have had unrealistically high expectations for Crede, Olivo, Rowand and Garland this year. They didn't really underachieve, they just didn't get over the hump.

As much as I can't stand to see Crede play, he didn't underachieve by most others' standards. As Hawk said, 20 homers and 70+ rbi from your 6 spot with solid defense from such a young guy is impressive. I don't think KW thinks Crede's ceiling is much higher than that. Thus, what more could JM have expected from Crede?

Most here think of Rowand as a fourth outfielder and I think JM thought of him the same way since he never let him be the starter.

I originally thought of Garland as not reaching his ceiling also, but he did greatly improve over last season and posted a high number of quality starts. Relating to JM's quote, he could not even think the starting pitching did not meet expectations.

I buy the Olivo argument. Heck, even S. Alomar thought he would only be starting 1-2 games a week since Olivo was supposed to hit well in the 9 spot.

That leaves us with Konerko, Koch, and Olivo falling short of their career cielings. But did Manuel really bank on all 25 of his players reaching career potentials in 2003? Granted it is 2 everyday starters and your opening day closer, but as mentioned before, Loaiza, R. Alomar, and Everett don't counter the failure of those 3?

Isn't it a manager's job to maximize talent? Granted, Manuel's hands are somewhat tied with a station-to-station team that won't steal much or make webgem-type catches every night, but he can counter that with hitting and running, bunting, and getting his boys to play fundamental defense. Everyone in the Majors can do that, and if they refuse or fail at it, Manuel can bench them until they play his type of ball.

MisterB
09-30-2003, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
"I think a lot of times, clubs are guilty of evaluating their personnel as what it should be potentially," he said. "A lot of times that's a trap. You say, 'We should, we should, we should.' But if you study it and evaluate it and check it out seriously, you might come up with something a little different. I'll just leave that like that."

I'm taking from this quote that Manuel wanted to play small ball, National League ball...bunt, steal, hit and run but couldn't because of all the brain dead slow footed sluggers the Sox had assembled.


I don't get that at all from his quote. Sounds more like he's making excuses and trying to shift the blame onto Williams.

Dan Gelo
09-30-2003, 04:06 AM
As to the webgems comment, I live on the road. I saw Carlos Lee hustlin his butt off on S/C quite often. I give him big thumbs up for defensive improvement.

idseer
09-30-2003, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
I don't get that at all from his quote. Sounds more like he's making excuses and trying to shift the blame onto Williams.


as he has done (shifting blame) during his entire tenure here, why should anyone be surprised at his comments. he doesn't feel he's ever done anything wrong here.

MarqSox
09-30-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
I actually thought the Sox were thinking big for a change. Now I'm just shaking my head. Same old Sox...
:(:
Mike Scioscia had never managed before 2000. He managed the Angels to the championship last year.

Bob Brenly had never manged before 2001. He took the Dbacks to the championship that year.

Ron Gardenhire had never managed before 2002. He has won two division titles in his first two years.

Clearly, hiring a "big name" is not a necessity for winning.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-30-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by idseer
as he has done (shifting blame) during his entire tenure here, why should anyone be surprised at his comments. he doesn't feel he's ever done anything wrong here.

I agree. That "Gandhi" b.s. merely hid the true man. Manuel was always right, even when everyone else agreed he was wrong.

This is Manuel's epitaph:

"Anything that went wrong was unintentional -- and definitely was not my fault."

Good-bye, Jerry.

LuvSox
09-30-2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
previous major league experience for a manager is a plus but NOT a necessity. (I feel another cheap hire coming on...) That's why almost the entire coaching staff was retained.

What about the fact that they are good coaches? The apocalypse is not upon us folks.


Originally posted by Win1ForMe


I actually thought the Sox were thinking big for a change. Now I'm just shaking my head. Same old Sox...
:(:


Geez, some of you people freak out over the stupidest things. Don't look too deeply into the things written here. There's nothing you can do about it anyway.

RKMeibalane
09-30-2003, 09:17 AM
:jerry

"I don't think we had the talent to win."

This from the former manager of the Chicago White Sox, after his team did not reach the post-season. I realize that Manuel is dissapointed that he is no longer the manager, but the fact of the matter is, the Sox had a chance to accomplish some great things this season, and they came up short. What is particularly frustrating is that virtually everyone who was asked about the Sox agree that they had the most talented team in their division. Now, we hear Manuel saying that wasn't true. If you ask me, I think Manuel needs to stop making excuses and accept responsibility for what happened. His poor decision-making, as well as his inability to use his players properly, were two key factors behind this team's second-place finish. The sooner he realizes that, the better off he will be.

voodoochile
09-30-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
I don't get that at all from his quote. Sounds more like he's making excuses and trying to shift the blame onto Williams.

Or the players. It is never Manuel's fault when the team underperforms at leas not in Jerry's mind...

Randar68
09-30-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
There was some question earlier here at WSI as to whether or not the coaching staff was retained with the new manager saddled with this group.

Greenstein feels, like I do, that the new manager is stuck with these guys like it or not. Also that LaRussa is NOT going to be managing the Sox at any time so.

I'm not completely against hiring someone without MLB managing experience. It seems to be working in MN and KC. This manager needs to be the best guy, MLB experience or not. This is not the time to trot out a Terry Bevington or Paul Richards.



You guys are not looking at the big picture here. (surprise, considering who started this thread).

Cooper, Walker, and Nossek were retained because:

1) They have served the organization well and been major contributors to this point
2) The organization feels they are too valuable to let go.

They will give the new manager the option of keeping members of the current assistant staff, or going in their own direction (as already indicated by KW direct quotes). If the new manager wants their own assistants, the White Sox will reassign the current people to other positions within the organization, such as roving hitting/pitching instructor, etc, etc!

You dopes are so fatalistic, that you follow Lip's "sky falling" notions on the first hint of negativity.

Can any of you think outside the box or come up with an explaination on your own?

phaedrus
09-30-2003, 11:33 AM
This quote from JM confirms what everyone has been saying about him. He never felt it was his responsibility to motivate any of the guys playing for him. His attitude has always been that 'these guys are pros and they need to take accountablity for their actions on the field'. How many times have we heard that this year? He felt all he needed to do was run the team from the dugout - but managing starts in the clubhouse, and continues on the plane, and over the off season - it's a full time job. JM just didn't get it. Nice guy but let's move on.

34 Inch Stick
09-30-2003, 12:00 PM
You dopes are so fatalistic, that you follow Lip's "sky falling" notions on the first hint of negativity.

Can any of you think outside the box or come up with an explaination on your own?

No.

Yeah! I got mail! I got mail! YEAAAAHHH!

hold2dibber
09-30-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You dopes are so fatalistic, that you follow Lip's "sky falling" notions on the first hint of negativity.

Can any of you think outside the box or come up with an explaination on your own?

Now that's some classic Randar right there.

Randar68
09-30-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Now that's some classic Randar right there.


Thank YOU! I'll be here all off-season!

pudge
09-30-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Thank YOU! I'll be here all off-season!

Thank goodness, cause I'll be bored to death all winter without some arguments over Jon Rauch's soon-to-be stardom!

:)