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balboner
09-29-2003, 02:48 PM
Reportedly, nostradomus Gammons has reported that Sox are in heavy pursuit of Tony Larussa. If this is true, there may be something to the Buehrle rumor, including the fact we're trying so hard to get Colon. This would account for some of the increased money we would have to give Colon. Should be interesting to see what happens. I'd rather trade Buehrle for players if we wanted to get rid of him.

A.T. Money
09-29-2003, 02:51 PM
Burly mon for Matt Morris?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-29-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by balboner
...If this is true, there may be something to the Buehrle rumor...

What??? How did you draw this conclusion? That Buehrle rumor is the wet dream of a few hundred internet numbskulls posting on Cardinal message boards. Don't believe their line of ****...

Brian26
09-29-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
What??? How did you draw this conclusion? That Buehrle rumor is the wet dream of a few hundred internet numbskulls posting on Cardinal message boards. Don't believe their line of ****...

Thank you, PHG. What kind of moron in this day and age would believe that a major league team would trade an excellent left-handed starting pitcher (who has potential to be a perennial 20 games winner) for a manager? That's 1960's Bill Veeck garbage. That crap doesn't happen in this day and age. Who would give up a pitcher for a manager? That's so beyond ridiculous. I'm stunned that anyone would believe this.

Unregistered
09-29-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by balboner
Reportedly, nostradomus Gammons has reported that Sox are in heavy pursuit of Tony Larussa. :boston
"Wait, there's another SOX team? I was just speculating that my BoSox might want to get Tony as a batting coach. I mean, who wouldn't absolutely JUMP at the chance to get to work with Nomar, Manny, Bill Mueller and Gabe Kapler?!? Delicious! And don't even get me started on that pitching staff..."

mandmandm
09-29-2003, 03:05 PM
Trading a number two pitcher that we do not have to pay for the next two years is stupid.

kittle42
09-29-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Trading a number two pitcher that we do not have to pay for the next two years is stupid.

Maybe instead we can trade Willie Harris, Aaron Miles, Billy Koch, Jon Adkins, Scott Ruffcorn, Kip Wells, Larry Thomas, Mike Porzio, and Bo Jackson's hip.

RedPinStripes
09-29-2003, 03:24 PM
I cant belive for a minute that Tony would ever work for JR again.

HITMEN OF 77
09-29-2003, 04:03 PM
I think Tony has a better chance of winning a World Series if he comes to Chicago rather than styaing in Cards uni. Why not the The Hawk do the managerial duties? He could get some fire under these players!! Wasn't he the one who fired Tony in the first place back in '85?

FanOf14
09-29-2003, 04:06 PM
I hope this isn't true. I haven't heard too many good things about him the last few years. It seems to me that if the Sox did hire him, it would be like living through the JM years all over again.

jeremyb1
09-29-2003, 04:15 PM
Buehrle would be incredibly steep for a manager to get out of his contract a year early. Personally I just can't imagine that happening.

soxwon
09-29-2003, 04:49 PM
The score was reporting it and some St louis stations also.
Buehrle for Tony, What do you Think.
Id do it Buehrles a head case and it would free up money for Colon and A big Free Agent Pitcher.
Tony will bring us a championship.

hold2dibber
09-29-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
I hope this isn't true. I haven't heard too many good things about him the last few years. It seems to me that if the Sox did hire him, it would be like living through the JM years all over again.

I question LaRussa's strategic maneuvers. I don't doubt, however, that he would get the players to play hard and to play focused. If KW is able to return the same talent level to the roster next season, playing hard and focused all the time will make them favorites to win the division.

hold2dibber
09-29-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Buehrle would be incredibly steep for a manager to get out of his contract a year early. Personally I just can't imagine that happening.

Nothing in the Gammons report about Buehrle being the price to pay. I personally wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox seeking permission to talk to LaRussa. I personally would crap my pants if KW traded Buehrle to get him. That will not happen, no way, no chance, no how. Now, if they were to throw in Renteria, I might be willing to talk.

soxwon
09-29-2003, 04:53 PM
i now see the post for Gammons on Larusa. down below.

SoxxoS
09-29-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Now, if they were to throw in Renteria, I might be willing to talk.

Now THAT is a hell of an idea.

Buerhle for LaRussa and Renteria. I wouldn't mind that in the least.

If we sign Colon, of course.

MetalliSox
09-29-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by soxwon
The score was reporting it and some St louis stations also.
Buehrle for Tony, What do you Think.
Id do it Buehrles a head case and it would free up money for Colon and A big Free Agent Pitcher.
Tony will bring us a championship.

How is Buehrle a headcase? Because he made a joke about the Cardinals, which was never caught on tape so nobody can hear the tone of his voice, and then went on TV in Chicago and said he was joking. I think you have to take Buehrle's word for it.

But seriously, why would you trade a potential 20 game winner who is a lefty, hard to find these days unless you live in Oakland, for a white version of Jerry Manuel.

KW is not stupid enough to do this.

MRKARNO
09-29-2003, 05:22 PM
I dont see why the sox couldnt just give compensation to the cards for La russa

soxtalker
09-29-2003, 05:22 PM
There are at least 3 threads on this, and I didn't know which one to add this to. So I'll add to the confusion with another thread.

Why don't we take TLR out of the equation for the moment and consider what St. Louis and the Sox would need to do to consumate a trade that would send Buerhle to the Cardinals? Then, let's add back the TLR factor.

First, why would I do this? Well, Buerhle has made clear his desire to go to St. Louis at some point. He has shown his willingness to bargain hard (though not necessarily unfairly) on contract. He currently has high trade value, particularly with St. Louis. While it is true that we can keep him for a few more years at low salary, there is always the risk that he'll get hurt. Would I prefer to keep him. Yes. But my question is what sort of trades could be made that would address problems of both teams.

I must confess that I don't know the Cardinal team -- either at the major or minor league level. But do they have other players that we could use? What else could they use?

hold2dibber
09-29-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I dont see why the sox couldnt just give compensation to the cards for La russa

That's exactly what they'd do.

hold2dibber
09-29-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
There are at least 3 threads on this, and I didn't know which one to add this to. So I'll add to the confusion with another thread.

Why don't we take TLR out of the equation for the moment and consider what St. Louis and the Sox would need to do to consumate a trade that would send Buerhle to the Cardinals? Then, let's add back the TLR factor.

First, why would I do this? Well, Buerhle has made clear his desire to go to St. Louis at some point. He has shown his willingness to bargain hard (though not necessarily unfairly) on contract. He currently has high trade value, particularly with St. Louis. While it is true that we can keep him for a few more years at low salary, there is always the risk that he'll get hurt. Would I prefer to keep him. Yes. But my question is what sort of trades could be made that would address problems of both teams.

I must confess that I don't know the Cardinal team -- either at the major or minor league level. But do they have other players that we could use? What else could they use?

I am not keen on dealing Buehrle. He is a very valuable commodity. However, the Sox do have some holes to fill, and if they're able to re-sign Colon, I would certainly consider dealing him (if they don't re-sign Colon, I wouldn't trade Buehrle for A-Rod or anybody else for that matter). The Cardinals certainly need pitching badly, so they're an obvious candidate. The guys on that team that would interest me are Renteria and J.D. Drew. How about Buehrle/Konerko for Renteria/Drew? Then Frank plays 1B and Drew is DH (to try to keep him healthy). Atlanta would also make sense - they have strength at SS (Furcal) and CF (Andruw Jones) and need pitching. I believe Jones has a big contract, but Furcal is still at about the same level of seniority (and salary) as Buehrle.

Again, let me reiterate that I am not in favor of trading him. Just throwing some ideas out there for consideration.

hold2dibber
09-29-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by soxwon
The score was reporting it and some St louis stations also.
Buehrle for Tony, What do you Think.
Id do it Buehrles a head case and it would free up money for Colon and A big Free Agent Pitcher.
Tony will bring us a championship.

Buehrle is a head case? The guy comes to play every day, is one of the best young lefties in the league and a great fielder to boot. I don't see how he is a head case.

And trading a 24 year old lefty who gives you 15 wins at 200 innings every year to get LaRussa out of his contract one year early would be abso-friggin'-lutely insane.

Finally, IMHO, Buehrle is unlikely to win a salary of more than $4 million next year. I don't see that as being enough to allow the Sox to find a big time free agent pitcher.

TraderTim
09-29-2003, 05:47 PM
Players cannot be compensation for mgrs any longer after the sweet Lou deal spawned a rule change by MLB.

IF the Sox talk to Tony, it will be because the Cardinals allowed it to happen. Compensation will not be part of the discussion.

Forkit!

Win1ForMe
09-29-2003, 05:48 PM
Was the Gammons rumor printed? All I can find about the White Sox is a blurb about Cito Gaston deserving another opportunity.

On a related note, I am stunned at this from the column: "Executives of the year? Brian Sabean and Ken Williams."

Where's Theo Epstein?

MRKARNO
09-29-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by TraderTim
Players cannot be compensation for mgrs any longer after the sweet Lou deal spawned a rule change by MLB.

IF the Sox talk to Tony, it will be because the Cardinals allowed it to happen. Compensation will not be part of the discussion.

Forkit!

You could certainly give monetary compensation

Paulwny
09-29-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by TraderTim
Players cannot be compensation for mgrs any longer after the sweet Lou deal spawned a rule change by MLB.

IF the Sox talk to Tony, it will be because the Cardinals allowed it to happen. Compensation will not be part of the discussion.

Forkit!

This has to be the 3rd post I've seen mentioning the rule change, trading a player for a manager but, the trade discussions continue.

Unregistered
09-29-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
This has to be the 3rd post I've seen mentioning the rule change, trading a player for a manager but, the trade discussions continue. That said, expect 3-5 more threads centered around who we should trade for LaRussa. :D:

dickallen15
09-29-2003, 06:04 PM
I posted this rule change, and I think I might have been wrong. I think its the NFL where you can't give compensation for a coach a la Jon Gruden. Sorry for the error.

soxtalker
09-29-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I am not keen on dealing Buehrle. He is a very valuable commodity. However, the Sox do have some holes to fill, and if they're able to re-sign Colon, I would certainly consider dealing him (if they don't re-sign Colon, I wouldn't trade Buehrle for A-Rod or anybody else for that matter). The Cardinals certainly need pitching badly, so they're an obvious candidate. The guys on that team that would interest me are Renteria and J.D. Drew. How about Buehrle/Konerko for Renteria/Drew? Then Frank plays 1B and Drew is DH (to try to keep him healthy). Atlanta would also make sense - they have strength at SS (Furcal) and CF (Andruw Jones) and need pitching. I believe Jones has a big contract, but Furcal is still at about the same level of seniority (and salary) as Buehrle.

Again, let me reiterate that I am not in favor of trading him. Just throwing some ideas out there for consideration.

Rentoria would certainly help fill the SS slot. Does St. Louis have anyone waiting in the wings in the minors?

lowesox
09-29-2003, 07:15 PM
An ace pitcher is far too much for a Manager. Especially when Garland, the next guy in line, is best friends with Buerle and would probably follow with an exit of his own.

soxtalker
09-29-2003, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
An ace pitcher is far too much for a Manager. Especially when Garland, the next guy in line, is best friends with Buerle and would probably follow with an exit of his own.

Sure. But almost no one seriously expects that to be the deal. Now, I'll ask once more, what sort of trade would work that would allow Buerhle to pitch for his beloved St. Louis Cardinals?

Daver
09-29-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Sure. But almost no one seriously expects that to be the deal. Now, I'll ask once more, what sort of trade would work that would allow Buerhle to pitch for his beloved St. Louis Cardinals?

They have to keep Tony Larussa would have to be part of it.

jortafan
09-29-2003, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
An ace pitcher is far too much for a Manager. Especially when Garland, the next guy in line, is best friends with Buerle and would probably follow with an exit of his own.

I couldn't agree more. Now if they were talking Jon Rauch for rights to talk to LaRussa, that I might consider doing.

soxtalker
09-29-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Daver
They have to keep Tony Larussa would have to be part of it.

Could you rephrase? Are you saying that Tony LaRussa has to be part of any such trade?

Daver
09-29-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Could you rephrase? Are you saying that Tony LaRussa has to be part of any such trade?

No, the Cardinals have to keep Larussa.

wilburwood
09-29-2003, 08:05 PM
As far as I'm concerned pitching is a VERY limited comodity. He can go to St. Louie in a few years, hopefully for a lot of cash after he is on a pennant winning club HERE. As far as Tony-Ball goes, man I was happy the last time we got rid of him. There just has to be something better out there. (but I did like his fire in the Flub series) :gulp:

soxtalker
09-29-2003, 08:40 PM
Well, one of the latest postings on the Cardinals board would seem to indicate that the Cardinals have something in the works, but different than what people have been talking about (i.e., TLR / Buerhle). On the other hand, it was a very cryptic message and hard to decipher.

http://www.cardsclubhouse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2908&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

soxtalker
09-29-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by wilburwood
As far as I'm concerned pitching is a VERY limited comodity. He can go to St. Louie in a few years, hopefully for a lot of cash after he is on a pennant winning club HERE. As far as Tony-Ball goes, man I was happy the last time we got rid of him. There just has to be something better out there. (but I did like his fire in the Flub series) :gulp:

It is true that pitching is very limited. However, when the name Rentoria came up in this thread, it brought back memories of the acquisition of Ozzie Guillen. He cost us dearly in LaMarr Hoyt, but he was a fixture at SS for a long time.

Deadguy
09-29-2003, 10:02 PM
This ought to put an end to the Tony Larussa rumors:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/Sports/Cardinals/DDB1BEA0DAD47AFC86256DB00073E59F?OpenDocument&Headline=La+Russa+reaffirms+that+he's+staying

MRKARNO
09-29-2003, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
This ought to put an end to the Tony Larussa rumors:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/Sports/Cardinals/DDB1BEA0DAD47AFC86256DB00073E59F?OpenDocument&Headline=La+Russa+reaffirms+that+he's+staying

Nothing could put an end to the rumors...except the sox hiring another manager

soxtalker
09-29-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
This ought to put an end to the Tony Larussa rumors:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/Sports/Cardinals/DDB1BEA0DAD47AFC86256DB00073E59F?OpenDocument&Headline=La+Russa+reaffirms+that+he's+staying

That would certainly seem to be the case. Now, if the many reports are to be believed, JR was given permission to talk to TLR a few days ago. Again, just rumor, but there were lots of reports from what appeared to be different sources. So, it could mean that they talked and either TLR/JR or Cardinals/JR+KW could not come to an agreement. I suppose it could also mean that the negotiations aren't over...

kempsted
09-29-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Daver
No, the Cardinals have to keep Larussa.
I just don't understand this point of view. LaRussa has been the manager of 3 teams has taken them all to the post season, just won 3 division titles in a row and took them to the NLCS 2 out of the last 3 years. It is this kind of stupid stuff that makes people like jeremy look right when we criticize Manuel. We must not know what it is too be a good manager. Nobody would play the kind of lifeless baseball for LaRussa that they played for Manuel.

SoxxoS
09-29-2003, 11:19 PM
I think it may be Joe Torre, if the Yankees slip up in the playoffs...

StillMissOzzie
09-29-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Trading a number two pitcher that we do not have to pay for the next two years is stupid.

Don't have to pay? Buehrle is now eligible for arbitration. Maybe the Sox will get a break after this last less-than-impressive season, but even the "losers" in arbitration usually get big raises.

SMO
:gulp:

A.T. Money
09-29-2003, 11:50 PM
Money Talks, and Bull**** walks.

Remember, Michael Jordan was 99.9% sure he wasn't going to play basketball again.

DrCrawdad
09-30-2003, 12:24 AM
What's clear after Monday's announcement is that Cardinals manager Tony La Russa won't be a target. And not just because La Russa reiterated Monday that he'll remain in St. Louis for the final year of his contract.

Here's another reason: Williams opted to retain Manuel's entire coaching staff minus third-base coach Bruce Kimm...

That surely would knock out La Russa, whose pitching coach, Dave Duncan, has been his right-hand man since 1986.

And it narrows the field of candidates to those who would agree to bring in only one coach.

"I have a lot of confidence in the coaches," Williams said, "and sometimes you have to exercise your executive rights."

It would not appear, though, to hurt the Sox's chances of hiring Gaston, whom many see as the early favorite.

Win1ForMe
09-30-2003, 12:44 AM
Wow, it looks like Cito Gaston. Where do I get my season tickets...

It's so obvious from these KW comments in the Trib article that the Sox have absolutely no intention of hiring a dynamic manager, electing rather to once again go on the cheap for a retread or a rookie.

TommyJohn
09-30-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Wow, it looks like Cito Gaston. Where do I get my season tickets...

It's so obvious from these KW comments in the Trib article that the Sox have absolutely no intention of hiring a dynamic manager, electing rather to once again go on the cheap for a retread or a rookie.

Cheap? Retread? Rookie? I'll take Cito Gaston any day over
Tony "The Tinker" LaRussa. Gaston's a winner, he has back-
to-back rings from Toronto to prove it.

As for someone "dynamic," personality doesn't win pennants.
Nor does screaming and yelling. I'm sure Phillie fans would
agree with me.

jcw218
09-30-2003, 01:46 AM
Just because Kenny said that the coaches, minus Kimm, are going to be retained, it does not mean that they will be serving in that capacity next season. To me that means the caoches are going to be staying with the organization.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-30-2003, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by jcw218
Just because Kenny said that the coaches, minus Kimm, are going to be retained, it does not mean that they will be serving in that capacity next season. To me that means the caoches are going to be staying with the organization.

This was my understanding, too. The coaches are "organization men." Williams will find homes for all of them in the organization, not necessarily in their former role as Manuel's coach.

soxtalker
09-30-2003, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This was my understanding, too. The coaches are "organization men." Williams will find homes for all of them in the organization, not necessarily in their former role as Manuel's coach.

I heard the same interpretation of KW's comments on AM 1000 in response to a caller raising the issue of tying the incoming manager's hands.

Win1ForMe
09-30-2003, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This was my understanding, too. The coaches are "organization men." Williams will find homes for all of them in the organization, not necessarily in their former role as Manuel's coach.

It certainly doesn't sound like that to me.

Greenstein writes: That surely would knock out La Russa, whose pitching coach, Dave Duncan, has been his right-hand man since 1986.

And it narrows the field of candidates to those who would agree to bring in only one coach.

"I have a lot of confidence in the coaches," Williams said, "and sometimes you have to exercise your executive rights."

Williams' comment about exercising his "executive rights" seems like he's going to use his power to shove these coaches down the new manager's throat.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-30-2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
It certainly doesn't sound like that to me.

Greenstein writes: That surely would knock out La Russa, whose pitching coach, Dave Duncan, has been his right-hand man since 1986.

And it narrows the field of candidates to those who would agree to bring in only one coach.

"I have a lot of confidence in the coaches," Williams said, "and sometimes you have to exercise your executive rights."

Williams' comment about exercising his "executive rights" seems like he's going to use his power to shove these coaches down the new manager's throat.

Well I guess we'll just have to wait and see which members of the Chicago sports media are proven wrong. Like others here, I heard Williams refer to the coaches as "organization men." Furthermore, like others here, I heard other members of the media talking about moving coaches into new roles within the organization--based on different interpretations of precisely the same comments you and Teddy G. heard.

Can we agree that Teddy G. doesn't get a vote in the matter? Williams won't be calling the Cubune when the ultimate decisions are being made.

soxtalker
09-30-2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well I guess we'll just have to wait and see which members of the Chicago sports media are proven wrong. Like others here, I heard Williams refer to the coaches as "organization men." Furthermore, like others here, I heard other members of the media talking about moving coaches into new roles within the organization--based on different interpretations of precisely the same comments you and Teddy G. heard.

Can we agree that Teddy G. doesn't get a vote in the matter? Williams won't be calling the Cubune when the ultimate decisions are being made.

Agreed. From the brief replays of parts of KW's comments and the various interpretations by the media, it seems that KW was vague enough to make it almost impossible to guess what he really is thinking. It does make for interesting speculation about the Sox at a time that we would otherwise be just trying to forget the season.

cornball
09-30-2003, 09:19 AM
I take is KW will get a proven manager...just his track record. He will not pay compensation for LaRussa...no way.

Look at his moves all proven vets....he will do the same with manager. Gaston is a good possiblity.

Hokiesox
09-30-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by jcw218
Just because Kenny said that the coaches, minus Kimm, are going to be retained, it does not mean that they will be serving in that capacity next season. To me that means the caoches are going to be staying with the organization.

Any chance Kimm went so as to replace him With Zimmer?

Afterall, they're both 3rd base coaches. Torre could work with everyone else on the staff, right? The only one he keeps with him is Zimmer. Of course, that would mean another former cub manager as our 3rd base coach, but this former cub manager won them their LAST division championship.

harwar
09-30-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Hokiesox
Any chance Kimm went so as to replace him With Zimmer?

Afterall, they're both 3rd base coaches. Torre could work with everyone else on the staff, right? The only one he keeps with him is Zimmer. Of course, that would mean another former cub manager as our 3rd base coach, but this former cub manager won them their LAST division championship.

Zim's days of being an on-field coach are past him.He can still contribute as a bench coach if he has a clear head,hes' getting pretty long in the tooth.
As for manager,i just hope its someone who knows how to handle a pitching staff.If Colon is signed we should have,at least two 20 game winners as i expect Buehrle to have a monster year.

dickallen15
09-30-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Hokiesox
Any chance Kimm went so as to replace him With Zimmer?

Afterall, they're both 3rd base coaches. Torre could work with everyone else on the staff, right? The only one he keeps with him is Zimmer. Of course, that would mean another former cub manager as our 3rd base coach, but this former cub manager won them their LAST division championship.


Zimmer couldn't even make it out to 3rd anymore. Torre isn't coming here. Remember, Torre's managerial record before he managed $100+ million payrolls was a shocking 117 games below .500. He is a good manager for the Yankees situation. With the White Sox, and what he would now command salary-wise, I'm not so sure. I doubt, if he were to get fired or resign from the Yankees, he would manage ever again.

TDog
09-30-2003, 11:16 AM
When Dusty Baker went to the Cubs, he was told who his pitching coach would be. When Chuck Tanner went to the A's, he was told who his pitching coach would be. (Oakland ownership liked Wes Stock and didn't want Johnny Sain anywhere near the team.) It isn't that uncommon established managers to have limits on their personal coaching selections.

Greg Walker and Don Cooper were not Jerry Manuel cronies. They were minor league coaches who came up to replace Manuel men who had to be dispatched. There would be no reason for the organization to release good men whose loyalty is to the Sox and not the fired manager. Art Kusnyer was with the Sox before Manuel, and I hope he will be back in the bullpen next year. Every team needs someone like Cave Kusnyer.

Wait until the Sox hire a new manager before you complain about him.