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anewman35
09-28-2003, 05:13 PM
Not to imply in any way that this season wasn't a disappointment, because, clearly, it was. I just thought it was funny that we ended up with 86 wins, which is the number that most preseason predictions (and even some I saw a few weeks ago) thought would be enough to win the division. Shame that it wasn't...

Also funny is how the 88 win Cubs are going to be treated as having an amazing season, while the Sox just lost 2 more and are a huge failure. (Not that I don't think the Sox are, but the Cubs are damn lucky to be where they are...)

soxtalker
09-28-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Also funny is how the 88 win Cubs are going to be treated as having an amazing season, while the Sox just lost 2 more and are a huge failure. (Not that I don't think the Sox are, but the Cubs are damn lucky to be where they are...)

Well, part of that is winning the division. But even if the Cubs had not won the division, they would have been able to look upon this season as a big success. They were not expected to do that much. The Sox were in the reverse situation.

Now, it will be interesting to see what people expect at the beginning of next season for both teams.

doublem23
09-28-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Not to imply in any way that this season wasn't a disappointment, because, clearly, it was. I just thought it was funny that we ended up with 86 wins, which is the number that most preseason predictions (and even some I saw a few weeks ago) thought would be enough to win the division. Shame that it wasn't...

Also funny is how the 88 win Cubs are going to be treated as having an amazing season, while the Sox just lost 2 more and are a huge failure. (Not that I don't think the Sox are, but the Cubs are damn lucky to be where they are...)

Well, theoretically, most were right in that mid- to upper-80s was enough to win... 87 wins got you an American League Central title.

hold2dibber
09-29-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Not to imply in any way that this season wasn't a disappointment, because, clearly, it was. I just thought it was funny that we ended up with 86 wins, which is the number that most preseason predictions (and even some I saw a few weeks ago) thought would be enough to win the division. Shame that it wasn't...

Also funny is how the 88 win Cubs are going to be treated as having an amazing season, while the Sox just lost 2 more and are a huge failure. (Not that I don't think the Sox are, but the Cubs are damn lucky to be where they are...)

I predicted that the Sox would win 88 this year, so on its face, maybe 86 doesn't seem so bad. But if you had told me at the beginning of the year that Loaiza would win 21 games, Carlos Lee would have his break out season, Frank would hit 42 homers, and the Sox would acquire Carl Everett and Robbie Alomar during the course of the season, and I would have guessed at least 94 wins. And that's what this team should have won.

But, due to:

Lack of focus. (Manuel's fault)
Lack of hustle. (Manuel's fault)
Lack of desire. (Manuel's fault)
Lack of determination. (Manuel's fault)
Lack of urgency. (Manuel's fault)
Konerko, Crede, Koch, and, to a lesser extent, Buehrle and Ordonez, being horrible for long stretches.

The only got 86. Bitterly disappointing, particularly with the other Chicago team in the playoffs.

jabrch
09-29-2003, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I predicted that the Sox would win 88 this year, so on its face, maybe 86 doesn't seem so bad. But if you had told me at the beginning of the year that Loaiza would win 21 games, Carlos Lee would have his break out season, Frank would hit 42 homers, and the Sox would acquire Carl Everett and Robbie Alomar during the course of the season, and I would have guessed at least 94 wins. And that's what this team should have won.

But, due to:

Lack of focus. (Manuel's fault)
Lack of hustle. (Manuel's fault)
Lack of desire. (Manuel's fault)
Lack of determination. (Manuel's fault)
Lack of urgency. (Manuel's fault)
Konerko, Crede, Koch, and, to a lesser extent, Buehrle and Ordonez, being horrible for long stretches.

The only got 86. Bitterly disappointing, particularly with the other Chicago team in the playoffs.


While I am not a Manuel apologizer, you can't just blame him. You have to blame the players for not caring enough. These guys had to be able to score against detroit rather than hand Esteban 2 losses 1-0.... They had to hit better vs TB and Clev. They did not show up to Minnesota and certainly didn't play well the last two games here. Is JM partially to blame? For sure...but I blame the veteran lack of leadership on this team also. (Konerko, Mags and Frank)

mrwag
09-29-2003, 07:49 AM
I blame JM for motivating these guys against teams like Tampa Bay and Detroit. Those two teams made the difference against us going to the post-season. Heck, the Sox could beat New York but not Detroit. That is a motivation problem.

I also blame Manuel for not emphasizing small ball when the sluggers weren't slugging. Look at the last couple of games against KC and how we scored all the runs without the long ball. Stealing bases, bunting, advancing runners, being aggressive - that's the way baseball is played. The Sox were too lazy in the first half to win this division, and we are now paying for it.

Yes, you can loose the division in June.

Dan H
09-29-2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Not to imply in any way that this season wasn't a disappointment, because, clearly, it was. I just thought it was funny that we ended up with 86 wins, which is the number that most preseason predictions (and even some I saw a few weeks ago) thought would be enough to win the division. Shame that it wasn't...

Also funny is how the 88 win Cubs are going to be treated as having an amazing season, while the Sox just lost 2 more and are a huge failure. (Not that I don't think the Sox are, but the Cubs are damn lucky to be where they are...)

While I think the Cubs deserve credit, you have to remember any time they win over 81 games, their fans and the city think they have done something special. That is one difference between us and them. We aren't impressed with a second place finish or a just above average record.

The playoffs will be a real test for the Cubs since they haven't played a good team in a month. But they did win the games they absolutely needed to win which is one thing the White Sox didn't do. This will be a tough off season.

hold2dibber
09-29-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
While I am not a Manuel apologizer, you can't just blame him. You have to blame the players for not caring enough. These guys had to be able to score against detroit rather than hand Esteban 2 losses 1-0.... They had to hit better vs TB and Clev. They did not show up to Minnesota and certainly didn't play well the last two games here. Is JM partially to blame? For sure...but I blame the veteran lack of leadership on this team also. (Konerko, Mags and Frank)

Believe me, I think the player's deserve a lot of blame - this team doesn't have many guys who are, inherently, gamers. But the ultimate responsibility for getting the players motivated, focused and driven is the the manager's. I think JM was dealt a difficult hand because the players on the team simply are not the "gamer" types, but I think JM played right into this lazy, unfocused attitudes but not instilling any sense of urgency. I strongly believe that a strong willed, well-respected manager like Pineilla, McKeon, Davey Johnson, Jim Leyland or Mike Scoscia would have gotten those guys up and ready for games against even Cleveland, Detroit and Tampa. A half dozen more wins against those dogs would have made all the difference in the world.