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Lip Man 1
09-27-2003, 04:13 PM
This is from 'ask Teddy Greenstein' in the Tribune The reader asked what the future holds for the Sox with all their free agents and payroll issues...

"We should know more in a few days, assuming GM Kenny Williams gives us some insight into the team's 2004 budget. The Sox shelled out just $51 million in salary this year, ranking 22nd in the game. Even though they didn't reach the playoffs, they drew 1.94 million, up 260,000 from last year. Will that be enough to push the payroll to a semi-respectable $60-$65 million?"

22nd in baseball, for the 3rd largest market in the country...absolutely disgusting.

Perhaps instead of bitching about how the Sox blew it, we should be grateful for getting a winning season out of that low of payroll

It will be very interesting indeed to see what Uncle Jerry allows to happen. Like Greenstein pointed out they did draw almost two million. If ownership does NOT increase the payroll after drawing that many fans they deserve to go broke next week via non support.

Remember that number folks...22nd in baseball.

Lip

voodoochile
09-27-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This is from 'ask Teddy Greenstein' in the Tribune The reader asked what the future holds for the Sox with all their free agents and payroll issues...

"We should know more in a few days, assuming GM Kenny Williams gives us some insight into the team's 2004 budget. The Sox shelled out just $51 million in salary this year, ranking 22nd in the game. Even though they didn't reach the playoffs, they drew 1.94 million, up 260,000 from last year. Will that be enough to push the payroll to a semi-respectable $60-$65 million?"

22nd in baseball, for the 3rd largest market in the country...absolutely disgusting.

Perhaps instead of bitching about how the Sox blew it, we should be grateful for getting a winning season out of that low of payroll

It will be very interesting indeed to see what Uncle Jerry allows to happen. Like Greenstein pointed out they did draw almost two million. If ownership does NOT increase the payroll after drawing that many fans they deserve to go broke next week via non support.

Remember that number folks...22nd in baseball.

Lip

Just for clarification, the Sox payroll does not include Everett and R. Alomar's salary. If you include those numbers in the estimate, they are closer to $70M in the value of the contracts that played for the team. I still agree that the Sox are too low for the size of the city.

joecrede
09-27-2003, 04:35 PM
Size of market doesn't mean much. Where were the Sox in terms of revenue compared to the rest of baseball?

Win1ForMe
09-27-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Size of market doesn't mean much. Where were the Sox in terms of revenue compared to the rest of baseball?

Yeah, is there a list anywhere with breakdown of all team revenues? I'd be interested in seeing that.

Dadawg_77
09-27-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This is from 'ask Teddy Greenstein' in the Tribune The reader asked what the future holds for the Sox with all their free agents and payroll issues...

"We should know more in a few days, assuming GM Kenny Williams gives us some insight into the team's 2004 budget. The Sox shelled out just $51 million in salary this year, ranking 22nd in the game. Even though they didn't reach the playoffs, they drew 1.94 million, up 260,000 from last year. Will that be enough to push the payroll to a semi-respectable $60-$65 million?"

22nd in baseball, for the 3rd largest market in the country...absolutely disgusting.

Perhaps instead of bitching about how the Sox blew it, we should be grateful for getting a winning season out of that low of payroll

It will be very interesting indeed to see what Uncle Jerry allows to happen. Like Greenstein pointed out they did draw almost two million. If ownership does NOT increase the payroll after drawing that many fans they deserve to go broke next week via non support.

Remember that number folks...22nd in baseball.

Lip

Lip the amount of money you spend isn't the biggest factor on whether you win or not, it is amount of talent. Oakland has a 40 million payroll, and has won the AL West, one of the toughest divisions in baseball, for two times in the past three years and wild card in the year they didn't win the West So would you rather be the Boston Red Sox, spending a bunch of money but only making the playoffs this year, or the A's?

Lip Man 1
09-27-2003, 10:08 PM
April 9, 2002:

"The record is clear. from 1995 through 2001, a total of 224 MLB postseason games were played. Only five were won by clubs whose payrolls were in the lower half of the industry. None advanced past the division series and no team, other then those whose payrolls are in the top fourth of payroll, has won a World Series game during this period. The seven year postseason record is 219-5 (a .978 winning percentage) in favor of high payroll teams."-- Bud Selig.

Even Anaheim had a payroll last year in the mid 60's. Last time I looked the Twins and A's haven't made the World Series have they? I wonder why?

Spending money doesn't guarantee you a playoff / World Series appearance but not spending money doesn't give you much of a chance at all does it? At least according to the numbers.

The Cubs payroll is now near 90 million dollars, please tell me again how the Sox can compete with a payroll in the mid (at best) 50's? Isn't something wrong when Minnesota, a market slated for contraction two years ago has a larger payroll then Chicago?

The Sox drew almost two million this season, let's see what excuse ownership comes up with now for not raising payroll. I bet it'll be a doozy.

Lip

Bucktown
09-27-2003, 11:06 PM
Bud Selig: "My Milwaukee team sucks, it must be bacause they are in a small market and not the ownership."

Per ESPN (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0721/1583823.html) (7/21/2003), 16 team had a larger payroll than the Sox and 13 had a smaller payroll.

5 playoff teams came from those that spend more on payroll and 3 teams from those that spent less (including the Twins).

It would appear that those in the top third of spending are twice as likely to make the playoffs. 4 teams made the playoffs in the top 10 of spenders and 4 teams made the playoffs among the remaining 20. The White Sox would need to increase its payroll by 25% to crack that top third (thirdtile?).

HOWEVER, we only need to win our division to get in the playoffs and we already outspend everyone in our division. So spending alone is not the solution.

Daver
09-27-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown


HOWEVER, we only need to win our division to get in the playoffs and we already outspend everyone in our division. So spending alone is not the solution.

The Twins have a higher payroll than the Sox do as of right now.

That will change after the arbitration deadline.

MRKARNO
09-27-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The Twins have a higher payroll than the Sox do as of right now.

That will change after the arbitration deadline.

:reinsy

"stupid sox fans, you really think I'm gonna raise salary next year. I dont care what the cubs do, I'm trading away everyone to make sure our payroll is lower than the twins, who will probably get rid of Hawkins and Guardado. MUA HAHA!"

idseer
09-27-2003, 11:21 PM
i often see the point raised that the sox are in the 3rd largest market. the fact is i've used that point myself at times and am disgusted with the team being operated like one of the smallest market teams. but strictly speaking, the fact is the sox SHARE this market. in effect can really only claim half the population, right? what size is the sox market NOW?

can they really be expected to operate as if they are in THEE 3rd largest market?

Bucktown
09-27-2003, 11:31 PM
My concern is that we don't pull a Texas or a Mets stunt and jack up the payroll without results. That is the surest way to ensure we don't have a good team for many years to come.

We especially can't afford any more acquisitions like Billy Koch. That is money poorly spent.

HawkDJ
09-27-2003, 11:40 PM
3rd largest market maybe but most of that market isn't ours. We were 21st in baseball in attendance.

booter14
09-27-2003, 11:56 PM
often see the point raised that the sox are in the 3rd largest market. the fact is i've used that point myself at times and am disgusted with the team being operated like one of the smallest market teams. but strictly speaking, the fact is the sox SHARE this market. in effect can really only claim half the population, right? what size is the sox market NOW?

Good point. The Chicago metro area is just over 9 million, and the Twin Cities area is 3.5 mil.

It would be a stretch to say that the Sox & Cubs share equally since the Cub Organization owns the biggest paper and super tv station in the city. Just poll your friends, family, work people, whoever, and you'll find that only 3 in 10 people (4 at most) are Sox fans. 30-40% of the Chicago population supports the Sox. thats about the same population as the Twin Cities, San Diego, St. Louis, and Seattle for starters.

The Sox & Twins cry small market, but really they just have poor organizations that don't support their fans needs. They are getting better, but how long will it last? The Sox & Twins are really in the upper tier for market support. Under 3 or 2.5 million population could be considered the threshold.

Lip Man 1
09-28-2003, 12:36 AM
If only 16 teams spent more then the Sox this year how do you account for the discrepency in Greenstein's figures?

The Sox shelled out just $51 million in salary this year, ranking 22nd in the game. Even though they didn't reach the playoffs, they drew 1.94 million, up 260,000 from last year.

My guess is that both Greenstein and yourself are operating under different paramaters.

I find it hard to believe the Sox are in the middle of the pack in payroll. Uncle Jerry has never allowed that before with the exception of 1997 (and that was only for the first four months of the season.)


Lip

MisterB
09-28-2003, 05:45 AM
According to USA Today's salary database (http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2003) , the Sox are 22nd in total payroll. The median team salary is just under $70M. Maybe we don't need one of the highest payrolls in baseball, but at least having the biggest in our division would be nice... :angry:

Paulwny
09-28-2003, 12:48 PM
Attendance isn't the only factor in the term "small market team". The revenue JR recieves for radio and tv broadcasts, with a Chi. population of 9 million, has to be larger then the money received by Pit, Min, KC, etc.

I don't know about this year but last year the yank RADIO revenue was greater than KC's TV revenue.

JR's blowing smoke when he uses the term "small market team".

Deadguy
09-28-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Yeah, is there a list anywhere with breakdown of all team revenues? I'd be interested in seeing that.

Forbes Magazine ranks the Sox as 18th in revenue, so if that's accurate, then our payroll is close to where it should be:

MLB Team Valuations 04.28.03



value* Rank Team Current ($mil) One-year change Operating income** ($mil)

1 New York Yankees $849 13% $16.1

2 New York Mets 498 3 11.6

3 Boston Red Sox 488 14 -2.1

4 Los Angeles Dodgers 449 3 -25.0

5 Atlanta Braves 423 0 9.5

6 Seattle Mariners 385 3 23.3

7 San Francisco Giants 382 8 13.9

8 Chicago Cubs 335 17 11.9

9 Texas Rangers 332 -7 -24.5

10 Cleveland Indians 331 -8 -1.0

11 Houston Astros 327 -3 -0.8

12 Baltimore Orioles 310 -3 12.4

13 St Louis Cardinals 308 14 -2.0

14 Colorado Rockies 304 -12 7.1

15 Arizona Diamondbacks 269 -1 -22.2

16 Philadelphia Phillies 239 3 -11.9

17 Detroit Tigers 237 -10 -5.3

18 Chicago White Sox 233 5 1.2

19 San Diego Padres 226 9 4.6

20 Anaheim Angels 225 15 -3.7

21 Pittsburgh Pirates 224 -7 -1.6

22 Cincinnati Reds 223 10 4.9

23 Milwaukee Brewers 206 -14 -6.1

24 Oakland Athletics 172 10 6.6

25 Toronto Blue Jays 166 -9 -23.9

26 Kansas City Royals 153 0 -11.2

27 Minnesota Twins 148 16 0.4

28 Tampa Bay Devil Rays 145 2 1.4

29 Florida Marlins 136 -1 -14.0

30 Montreal Expos 113 5 -9.1

LEAGUE AVERAGE 295 3 -1.3


*Value based on current stadium deal (unless new stadium is pending), without
deduction for debt (other than stadium debt). **Earnings for 2002 season after
revenue sharing, but before interest, taxes and depreciation.

springrovesoxfan
09-28-2003, 11:37 PM
Heres hoping Jerry will realize that by spending more and proving to sox fans that he is serious about winning a world series, sox fans (and borderline fans) will come out to the park. All he has to do is look at the boost in attendence the sox got just by the mid season trades that showed at least KW wanted to win it all now, not tomorrow. JUST SPEND IT JERRY

gosox41
09-29-2003, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Attendance isn't the only factor in the term "small market team". The revenue JR recieves for radio and tv broadcasts, with a Chi. population of 9 million, has to be larger then the money received by Pit, Min, KC, etc.

I don't know about this year but last year the yank RADIO revenue was greater than KC's TV revenue.

JR's blowing smoke when he uses the term "small market team".

First, this year the Royals created their own network to show their games. This should up their revenue.

Second, KC, Minn., and Pitt. all are receving revenue sharing whcih narrows the gap between the Sox and rhem.

Bob

Jess1210
09-29-2003, 10:41 AM
According to KW in the Daily Southtown, payroll won't be going up much. His quote:

"Although Williams won't know what payroll he will have to work with until November at the earliest, he said it won't be much more than the $56 million the Sox ended the season with.

"(The payroll) may go up marginally," Williams said. "We're still going to have to do some juggling. We still don't have the resources to add significantly to the payroll. But as I've said before, so be it. We'll make it work." "

link (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/291sd5.htm)

So who knows what the final figure will be.

jabrch
09-29-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Just for clarification, the Sox payroll does not include Everett and R. Alomar's salary. If you include those numbers in the estimate, they are closer to $70M in the value of the contracts that played for the team. I still agree that the Sox are too low for the size of the city.

If you include Alomar and Everett? Why would you? We didn't pay them. You can only include in payroll the guys we paid, right? Players like those two will not be available at the beginning of the year for free. Only at the trade deadline.

voodoochile
09-29-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
If you include Alomar and Everett? Why would you? We didn't pay them. You can only include in payroll the guys we paid, right? Players like those two will not be available at the beginning of the year for free. Only at the trade deadline.

I was talking about the dollar value of the players who played for the Sox, not the amount they shelled out this year for said players.

The Sox had a team that collectively earned almost $70M, but of that, they only paid out $51M. I was trying to point out that the team wasn't really a $51M team in terms of talent.

Lip Man 1
09-29-2003, 11:53 AM
I guess Williams' comments puts the dagger into the heart of those Sox fans thinking the payroll was going to go up to "unheard" of numbers like oh say 65 million (which is still below the league average.

Let's see...the Sox drew almost two million but "they still don't have the resources" to significantly increase payroll.

Like I said you'll never hear the Sox give the fans a definate number requirement for raising the payroll (i.e. 2 million fans, 2.3 million fans, 2.5 million fans etc.) simply because if they did, Sox fans might meet it, then the owner would be on the hook to spend, spend, spend (and we can't have that can we?) It's much easier to be nebulous and blame the fans for everything.

Oh and don't forget the "best stadium lease in pro sports" according to John Helyar author of The Lords Of The Realm. But the Sox 'still don't have the resources..."

Does someone out there want to tell me again how much Uncle Jerry wants a World Series?

LOL

Lip