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RichH55
09-27-2003, 03:14 AM
Assuming Mags is still here and Everett is gone(decent assumption)

Jay Payton CF? Looks like he won't be back with colorado...Shouldn't cost a ton and is still decently young....I'd have to do some more research, but he seems like he would bring some things to the table

hose
09-27-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Assuming Mags is still here and Everett is gone(decent assumption)

Jay Payton CF? Looks like he won't be back with colorado...Shouldn't cost a ton and is still decently young....I'd have to do some more research, but he seems like he would bring some things to the table


Jay Payton= right handed hitter, might as well put Rowand out there.

Sox need to get some speed on the base paths and good left handed sticks in the line up.

soxtalker
09-27-2003, 08:47 AM
I would imagine that CF is pretty low on the priority list, as the Sox have Rowand. I think that they were high on him before his dirt-bike accident in the off season, and I believe that his numbers have been coming back as the season progressed (though time limited). Now, some of you don't like Rowand. But KW has a lot of holes to fill. He also knows that he can fill some of them during the spring training and regular season if the people he has fail (e.g., Rowand).

voodoochile
09-27-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I would imagine that CF is pretty low on the priority list, as the Sox have Rowand. I think that they were high on him before his dirt-bike accident in the off season, and I believe that his numbers have been coming back as the season progressed (though time limited). Now, some of you don't like Rowand. But KW has a lot of holes to fill. He also knows that he can fill some of them during the spring training and regular season if the people he has fail (e.g., Rowand).

Crash is an injury waiting to happen. When he ran into the wall again last night, he wasn't even that close to it when he caught the ball and wasn't moving very fast when he did so and he still limped around for the next 1/2 inning. The guy scares me.

Gumshoe
09-27-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I would imagine that CF is pretty low on the priority list, as the Sox have Rowand. I think that they were high on him before his dirt-bike accident in the off season, and I believe that his numbers have been coming back as the season progressed (though time limited). Now, some of you don't like Rowand. But KW has a lot of holes to fill. He also knows that he can fill some of them during the spring training and regular season if the people he has fail (e.g., Rowand).

Why can't we give this guy a chance? He is far better than anyone else we can think of that we have, he is a hustler, he came up with some really big hits in limited action this year, and he has above average speed with a really good arm. More importantly, he is not expensive. I really can't believe why people dislike this guy so much on this board. Play him, it's a NO brainer

G

soxtalker
09-27-2003, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Why can't we give this guy a chance? He is far better than anyone else we can think of that we have, he is a hustler, he came up with some really big hits in limited action this year, and he has above average speed with a really good arm. More importantly, he is not expensive. I really can't believe why people dislike this guy so much on this board. Play him, it's a NO brainer

G


Well, I tend to agree. He plays with an intensity without regard to what might happen to his body. That's really refreshing to see from a fan's perspective. But Voodoo has a point. It's that same disregard that resulted in the stupid dirt-bike accident. Now, I'm sure that his agent and the Sox management have gotten across the point that he better not be doing anything like that in the off season. But on the field? I don't know. You want some of that, but just a bit more judgement. Age usually provides that. Maybe a good manager can also.

DrCrawdad
09-27-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Why can't we give this guy a chance? He is far better than anyone else we can think of that we have, he is a hustler, he came up with some really big hits in limited action this year, and he has above average speed with a really good arm. More importantly, he is not expensive. I really can't believe why people dislike this guy so much on this board. Play him, it's a NO brainer

G

At one point a few years ago the Sox were overflowing with centerfielders - Simmons, Cameron, Christensen & Singleton.

I hope KW explores all options in CF, but Rowand is fine with me.

RichH55
09-27-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
At one point a few years ago the Sox were overflowing with centerfielders - Simmons, Cameron, Christensen & Singleton.

I hope KW explores all options in CF, but Rowand is fine with me.

Rowand is a 4th OF, no more. Running him out there everyday does nothing but hurt the teams chances to win.......That being said, I still like him better than when we had Singleton

JRIG
09-27-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Why can't we give this guy a chance? He is far better than anyone else we can think of that we have, he is a hustler, he came up with some really big hits in limited action this year, and he has above average speed with a really good arm. More importantly, he is not expensive. I really can't believe why people dislike this guy so much on this board. Play him, it's a NO brainer

G

I think Rowand is the perfect 4th outfielder. But as a starter? No way. He's a free swinger who won't tak pitches and doesn't walk. Defensively, everyone loves to rave about how he'll run into walls to make a play, but watching him, it seems he runs into walls because he doesn't know where he is on the field. That's not a great defensive outfielder.

jabrch
09-27-2003, 02:07 PM
Payton is ok...just be careful...Prior to going to Colorado, his numbers as a Met were very different. Sure he was young and he grew as a player, but... Don't believe his Coors Field numbers are replicable anywhere else. I don't see him being a significant improvement over Rowand. I also don't see him being significantly cheaper than Carl E. I get a bad feeling when talking about Rockies power hitters coming to a bigger park like Comiskey. They feel like lazy flyball hitters just waiting to happen.

Dadawg_77
09-27-2003, 03:41 PM
Beltran, Borchard, Rowland. That would be my order of choices.

MarkEdward
09-27-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by RichH55

Jay Payton CF? Looks like he won't be back with colorado...Shouldn't cost a ton and is still decently young....I'd have to do some more research, but he seems like he would bring some things to the table

For what it's worth, Payton has spent the better part of two years playing in left field for the Rockies.

MRKARNO
09-27-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Beltran, Borchard, Rowland. That would be my order of choices.

Two things:

1. I dont want to see borchard on the major league team next year barring a monster 1st half in charlotte.

2. Kelly Rowland doesnt play baseball last time I checked :)

DrCrawdad
09-27-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Beltran, Borchard, Rowland. That would be my order of choices.

Who is Beltran's agent?

WinningUgly!
09-27-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO


2. Kelly Rowland doesnt play baseball last time I checked :)

She has more of an upside than Aaron Rowand.

Daver
09-27-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Why can't we give this guy a chance?

Because he is a crappy center fielder that does not hit for average or power and can't walk.

voodoochile
09-27-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Because he is a crappy center fielder that does not hit for average or power and can't walk.


OOOOOHHHHH! That....

details... details...

Paulwny
09-27-2003, 05:19 PM
Where's Randar? I like hearing him beat his head against a wall when the Rowand fans start up.

JRIG
09-27-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Who is Beltran's agent?

Boras, no? And Beltran still has one more year on his contract, I believe.

JRIG
09-27-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Because he is a crappy center fielder that does not hit for average or power and can't walk.

But he runs into walls!

voodoochile
09-27-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
But he runs into walls!

Isn't that the good part of his game?

JRIG
09-27-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Isn't that the good part of his game?

When watching games like that, it seems he runs into walls more because he doesn't know where he is on the field than from great defense. That's a surefire recipe for an injury.

voodoochile
09-27-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
When watching games like that, it seems he runs into walls more because he doesn't know where he is on the field than from great defense. That's a surefire recipe for an injury.

That was I thought last night. I guess I should have used teal in that last comment...

Gumshoe
09-27-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Because he is a crappy center fielder that does not hit for average or power and can't walk.

How do you know for sure? He never has gotten a legit shot for your "expertise" to truly judge him. He makes things look easy out there compared to the defensive liability that KW loves, CE, and also he costs close to nothing.

Bucktown
09-27-2003, 10:45 PM
I am assuming Rowand was hurt at the beginning off the year. Since the All-star break Aaron batted .370 with a .609 slugging percentage. I would argue he deserves a shot.

Carl Everett was no slouch either batting .312 with a .507 slugging percentage.

I would be happy with either starting in Center field.

Daver
09-27-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
How do you know for sure? He never has gotten a legit shot for your "expertise" to truly judge him. He makes things look easy out there compared to the defensive liability that KW loves, CE, and also he costs close to nothing.

I did not know that this was based on payroll,but it doesn't matter.

I'll say this,watch him play center feild,he has no clue what he is doing,he cannot read the ball off the bat,has no idea where he is on the field,and he can't position himself to make a throw to save his life.

I won't bother to bring up the fact that he can't hit for average or power,or the fact that he can't draw a walk if he was told to.

Can I assume you also want Willie Harris to be the second baseman next year?

You seem to have an affinity for mediocre ballplayers.

RichH55
09-27-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
How do you know for sure? He never has gotten a legit shot for your "expertise" to truly judge him. He makes things look easy out there compared to the defensive liability that KW loves, CE, and also he costs close to nothing.


So he has never shown any ability to be more than a 4th OF....when he did have his "chance" here, he didn't actually show up, his minor league numbers don't exactly jump out and say Superstar do they?

He does cost close to nothing though....which is why he is a great option................For the 4th OF slot

Brian26
09-27-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Beltran, Borchard, Rowland. That would be my order of choices.

Borchard looks good standing in the atrium bar buying me and Dot drinks, but can he play?

He still needs to learn how to hit.

RichH55
09-28-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
Borchard looks good standing in the atrium bar buying me and Dot drinks, but can he play?

He still needs to learn how to hit.

He'd have a better year then Rowand (assuming a healthy wrist) just based on pure talent alone.

That being said, I don't know if he is the answer for next year.

RichH55
09-28-2003, 02:17 AM
I still like the Jay Payton idea

In his prime, more speed than Crazy Carl...Skills to pay CF, though he's not Andruw Jones (maybe he could run into the wall to make people happy?).....He does hit better at Coors, though his road stats aren't bad either. Pretty good OBP numbers and IMO shouldn't be terribly expensive 3-4 million?......I don't think Borchard is ready, and Reed would have to earn a spot as well

As always I base most of my thoughts under the assumption that Konerko will be gone....And the idea of Jay Payton grows on me


C-Olivo
1B-Thomas
2B- Alomar
SS- Jose
3B -Crede
LF/DH - C. Lee
CF- Payton
RF-Mags
DH/LF -Reed

SP -Buerhle
SP- Colon
SP- Loaiza
SP-Garland
SP-Hitchcock

RP-Ginter
RP-Wunch
RP-Koch
RP- Wright
RP- Marte
RP-Gordon

Bench
Graffy
Wee Willie
Rowand
Alomar or Triple A catcher
Daubach-esque type


Sound good to anyone else?

DrCrawdad
09-28-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I still like the Jay Payton idea

In his prime, more speed than Crazy Carl...Skills to pay CF, though he's not Andruw Jones (maybe he could run into the wall to make people happy?).....He does hit better at Coors, though his road stats aren't bad either. Pretty good OBP numbers and IMO shouldn't be terribly expensive 3-4 million?......I don't think Borchard is ready, and Reed would have to earn a spot as well

As always I base most of my thoughts under the assumption that Konerko will be gone....And the idea of Jay Payton grows on me


C-Olivo
1B-Thomas
2B- Alomar
SS- Jose
3B -Crede
LF/DH - C. Lee
CF- Payton
RF-Mags
DH/LF -Reed

SP -Buerhle
SP- Colon
SP- Loaiza
SP-Garland
SP-Hitchcock

RP-Ginter
RP-Wunch
RP-Koch
RP- Wright
RP- Marte
RP-Gordon

Bench
Graffy
Wee Willie
Rowand
Alomar or Triple A catcher
Daubach-esque type


Sound good to anyone else?

Where did Sterling Hitchcock come from? IIRC Schoenweiss is signed thru next year.

RichH55
09-28-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Where did Sterling Hitchcock come from? IIRC Schoenweiss is signed thru next year.

I believe Schoenweiss will be a FA...as will Sterling

For similar money I'm going with Sterling


The FAs I signed with Jay Payton and Sterling Hitchcock.....Not exactly going top shelf there


Plus I think if we resign Colon early in the process, he might take a bit off the asking price....and I know that Jose will(1.5 anyone?) So that would help the flexibility

MisterB
09-28-2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I believe Schoenweiss will be a FA...as will Sterling

Shoney is arbitration eligible (4+ years in the majors). Hitchcock has an $8M option for '04 (or a $1M buyout), and even with the Cards' pitching problems, I don't see them re-upping him at that price. He's never been a great pitcher, but could be that mediocre back-of-the-rotation veteran. Anything over a $2M/yr offer would probably be overpaying.

idseer
09-28-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
....and I know that Jose will(1.5 anyone?) So that would help the flexibility

offer him 1.5 and you'll see how fast our 'heart' packs his bags.

jabrch
09-28-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I still like the Jay Payton idea

In his prime, more speed than Crazy Carl...Skills to pay CF, though he's not Andruw Jones (maybe he could run into the wall to make people happy?).....He does hit better at Coors, though his road stats aren't bad either. Pretty good OBP numbers and IMO shouldn't be terribly expensive 3-4 million?......I don't think Borchard is ready, and Reed would have to earn a spot as well

As always I base most of my thoughts under the assumption that Konerko will be gone....And the idea of Jay Payton grows on me


C-Olivo
1B-Thomas
2B- Alomar
SS- Jose
3B -Crede
LF/DH - C. Lee
CF- Payton
RF-Mags
DH/LF -Reed

SP -Buerhle
SP- Colon
SP- Loaiza
SP-Garland
SP-Hitchcock

RP-Ginter
RP-Wunch
RP-Koch
RP- Wright
RP- Marte
RP-Gordon

Bench
Graffy
Wee Willie
Rowand
Alomar or Triple A catcher
Daubach-esque type


Sound good to anyone else?


Sounds fine Rich...Except you are over 10MM over the 60mm cap target that we are talking about....and you did assume that we not only got rid of Konerko, but we were able to do it without taking on any other salary burden. It sounds nice Rich...just unrealistic.

jabrch
09-28-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by idseer
offer him 1.5 and you'll see how fast our 'heart' packs his bags.

Exactly!

MRKARNO
09-28-2003, 10:31 AM
The best move the sox could make is getting rid of konerko and hiring a manager that will put frank at first.

(Sorry RK, gotta agree with you)

We might see the Frank of old if we do this.

RichH55
09-28-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by idseer
offer him 1.5 and you'll see how fast our 'heart' packs his bags.

Blah blah.....He's already taken less money to stay here once, and has said basically if we are playing to win then he will take less here as he knows his options include being a backup elsewhere.

RichH55
09-28-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Exactly!

See previous post

RichH55
09-28-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Sounds fine Rich...Except you are over 10MM over the 60mm cap target that we are talking about....and you did assume that we not only got rid of Konerko, but we were able to do it without taking on any other salary burden. It sounds nice Rich...just unrealistic.

I guess it all depends on what certain guys sign for and whatnot....and I have made my views on Konerko known....Well I think he isn't helpful here, I still don't think he is unmovable, even without taking on significant salary(not saying we won't have to package him or that we would get anything worthwhile in return, just saying its my belief he can be moved)

RichH55
09-28-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I still like the Jay Payton idea

In his prime, more speed than Crazy Carl...Skills to pay CF, though he's not Andruw Jones (maybe he could run into the wall to make people happy?).....He does hit better at Coors, though his road stats aren't bad either. Pretty good OBP numbers and IMO shouldn't be terribly expensive 3-4 million?......I don't think Borchard is ready, and Reed would have to earn a spot as well

As always I base most of my thoughts under the assumption that Konerko will be gone....And the idea of Jay Payton grows on me


C-Olivo 300 K
1B-Thomas 6 million(When do we find out whether Thomas accepts?)
2B- Alomar (? - honestly I'm not sure 2.5-3 million?)
SS- Jose (1.5-2)
3B -Crede (300 K)
LF/DH - C. Lee 6-7 million
CF- Payton 2.5-3 million
RF-Mags 14 million
DH/LF -Reed 300 K
33.4- 35.9 million

SP -Buerhle 6 million(?)
SP- Colon 8 million (? Could be way off)
SP- Loaiza (3.5 million)
SP-Garland 300 K
SP-Hitchcock 1.5-2 million
19.3 - 19.8
RP-Ginter 300 K
RP-Wunch 650 K
RP-Koch 6.25 million
RP- Wright 300 K
RP- Marte 300-600 K
RP-Gordon 2.5 million
10. 5 or so?
Bench
Graffy 1 million
Wee Willie 300 K
Rowand 300 K
Alomar or Triple A catcher 300-700 K depending on Alomar
Daubach-esque type 500 K - 1 million
3 million or so(work it how you like with the bench)

66.2 -69.2

Sound good to anyone else?

I am over the 60 million budget.....but I don't have definate cost estimates either 65 million with some tweaking and I can see that getting by

oheeoh...magglio
09-28-2003, 06:07 PM
Does anybody know about the contract status of Juan Pierre on Florida?? I would love to see a speedy guy who roams centerfield well and gets on base come here, and if getting Pierre isn't possible, are there any guys like him that play his kind of style that the sox could potentially go after??

Randar68
09-28-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Where's Randar? I like hearing him beat his head against a wall when the Rowand fans start up.


I'm done with that. Guys like GummyBear bring to mind tyhe old, "You can't argue with ignorance" mantra.


Unless they sign a FA, Jeremy Reed is your opening day CF'er.

Rowand never even hit .300 in AA, Reed hit over .400!

doublem23
09-28-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

Rowand never even hit .300 in AA, Reed hit over .400!

Yeah, but does Jeremy run into walls?

:)

Daver
09-28-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I'm done with that. Guys like GummyBear bring to mind tyhe old, "You can't argue with ignorance" mantra.


Unless they sign a FA, Jeremy Reed is your opening day CF'er.



I don't know that I would be real happy having a converted infielder playing CF,no matter how good his bat is.

MRKARNO
09-28-2003, 08:54 PM
The only problem is that the last CFer in the White Sox organization who batted .400 in a league that was not the major league is named WIllie Harris (Puerto Rican League)

But I really hope those numbers at AA are a lot more meaningful. I really want to see Reed hit .290-.310 in the leadoff spot next year and I think he just may have what it takes to do that.

jeremyb1
09-28-2003, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Yeah, but does Jeremy run into walls?

:)

I still think its hilarious that some of you make fun of the fact that you think people think Rowand is good in CF only because he runs into walls when you use similar logic to decide he's not good. You all claim that Rowand doesn't look pretty getting after balls that he's not under them when they land and therefore he's not a good centerfielder. Well, isn't examining only how smoothly a player appears to make plays and basing your opinion on a few isolated incidents such as misplaying a ball in CF the same as thinking a player is good at defense because of a few isolated plays where he crashes into walls?

Daver
09-28-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I still think its hilarious that some of you make fun of the fact that you think people think Rowand is good in CF only because he runs into walls when you use similar logic to decide he's not good. You all claim that Rowand doesn't look pretty getting after balls that he's not under them when they land and therefore he's not a good centerfielder. Well, isn't examining only how smoothly a player appears to make plays and basing your opinion on a few isolated incidents such as misplaying a ball in CF the same as thinking a player is good at defense because of a few isolated plays where he crashes into walls?

This is a prime example of why you don't grasp it Jeremy,playing defense is a skill,and there is no stat that measures it,which makes you the last person to consult on the matter.

idseer
09-28-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Blah blah.....He's already taken less money to stay here once, and has said basically if we are playing to win then he will take less here as he knows his options include being a backup elsewhere.

get real rich. if you think he'll settle for less than a third of his current pay after having a very decent (for him) year you're on a flight of fancy.

RichH55
09-28-2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by idseer
get real rich. if you think he'll settle for less than a third of his current pay after having a very decent (for him) year you're on a flight of fancy.


Did he not take less money to be here last time?

Has not the baseball economics changed?

Is he not older(wrong side of 30 older) than when he signed his last contract?

Are his numbers better than they were when he signed the last contract?

Assuming the Sox "show" him they want to win, has he not said he would take a paycut to come back?

Did he not acknowledge he would be a backup elsewhere, since he wanted to win(denoting that he would make less money elsewhere to since a backup generally makes less than a starter)

Did his option not vest, giving him much less leverage than he had?

Where is the flight of fancy again?>

idseer
09-29-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Did he not take less money to be here last time?

Has not the baseball economics changed?

Is he not older(wrong side of 30 older) than when he signed his last contract?

Are his numbers better than they were when he signed the last contract?

Assuming the Sox "show" him they want to win, has he not said he would take a paycut to come back?

Did he not acknowledge he would be a backup elsewhere, since he wanted to win(denoting that he would make less money elsewhere to since a backup generally makes less than a starter)

Did his option not vest, giving him much less leverage than he had?

Where is the flight of fancy again?>


watch and see dreamer. :smile:

jabrch
09-29-2003, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I am over the 60 million budget.....but I don't have definate cost estimates either 65 million with some tweaking and I can see that getting by

So you are saying that we will expand from a 51mm salary this year to a 65mm salary next season...and that you will do this by moving PK and not taking on significant salary...and that Frank will take 6mm...and that Valentin will take 1.5mm...

Didn't you accuse me of making too many assumptions in a prior thread?

RichH55
09-29-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
So you are saying that we will expand from a 51mm salary this year to a 65mm salary next season...and that you will do this by moving PK and not taking on significant salary...and that Frank will take 6mm...and that Valentin will take 1.5mm...

Didn't you accuse me of making too many assumptions in a prior thread?


Making 15 assumptions on 15 different guys(mainly since I didn't have good payroll data and I tried my best)...is different then making 15 different assumptions on one guy to bury an axe into him

RichH55
09-29-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by idseer
watch and see dreamer. :smile:

Not wanting to answer any of those questions?

RichH55
09-29-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
So you are saying that we will expand from a 51mm salary this year to a 65mm salary next season...and that you will do this by moving PK and not taking on significant salary...and that Frank will take 6mm...and that Valentin will take 1.5mm...

Didn't you accuse me of making too many assumptions in a prior thread?


Lots of ??? Last year I wanted Moyer...I think getting Hitchcock would make alot of sense, and maybe I'm asking too much with Jay Payton...Payton doesn't make or break anything mind you, but I thought he would be a nice option, since I like Reed, but don't want him playing CF right off the bat.

Frank taking 6 isn't really a stretch, and we should find out soon(Just like arbitration numbers which I tried to be nearer to a high end on --> I mean I saw people projecting Buerhle at 3 million which seems like a pipedream)

I have stated my reasons for thinking PK can be moved, and if you noticed, I didn't assume any talent coming back.


And how much do you think Jose will take to be back here? His option was for 5, so that's the theoritical maximum and I posted all the reasons I thought he would be back at 1.5-2 million a year

idseer
09-29-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Not wanting to answer any of those questions?

Did he not take less money to be here last time?

yes, slightly less, perhaps 1/10 ..... irrelevent

Has not the baseball economics changed?

yes, slightly ..... irrelevent

Is he not older(wrong side of 30 older) than when he signed his last contract?

yes .....irrelevent

Are his numbers better than they were when he signed the last contract?

better, but not significantly better. he did have more homeruns and was much better in the field. ..... irrelevent

Assuming the Sox "show" him they want to win, has he not said he would take a paycut to come back?

what does this mean exactly? how many signings and who will it take for him to be "shown'? ..... irrelevent

Did he not acknowledge he would be a backup elsewhere, since he wanted to win(denoting that he would make less money elsewhere to since a backup generally makes less than a starter)

less than what? you take this to mean he'd give up over 2 thirds of his pay to sit on a 'winners' bench? ..... meaningless

Where is the flight of fancy again?

alive and well and living inside your head!

maurice
09-29-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I don't know that I would be real happy having a converted infielder playing CF,no matter how good his bat is.

Robin Yount did okay. :)

Though far from a prototypical CF, Reed had a great year, and the Sox might give him a chance. Harris apparently can't hit (though he may be your starting 2B or a platoon partner with Miles. :o: ) I doubt that they're counting on Borchard to make the team out of spring training, given his struggles this season. The Sox are not likely to resign Everett or acquire anyone new.

That leaves Crash. His career major league numbers are:

582 ABs, 29 2B, 2 3B, 17 HR, 73 RBI, 84 Runs, 34 BB, 103 K, 5 SB, 2 CS, .273 AVE, .325 OBP, .418 SLG

The K/BB ratio is bad, the OBP and SLG are both below average, and none of the other numbers are impressive. His minor league performance indicates that he's not likely to improve any of these numbers significantly. His defense in CF is about average (keeping in mind that very many major league CFs suck and only a handful are particularly good). He doesn't do anything special to help the team, but he won't kill you either.

That being said, it looks like he's got the job, unless Reed or Borchard have a great spring.

pudge
09-29-2003, 12:33 PM
Has anyone thought of Cameron? Yes, he K's a lot, and his Seattle numbers suck, but the rumor is he hates Safeco field and hits very well on the road (not to mention very well at Comiskey).

And he's gotta be one of the best defensive CF's around, plus he steals bases.

Anyone guess what he will command in the FA market next year? I heard Houston and Philly could be the best suitors for him.

JRIG
09-29-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Has anyone thought of Cameron? Yes, he K's a lot, and his Seattle numbers suck, but the rumor is he hates Safeco field and hits very well on the road (not to mention very well at Comiskey).

And he's gotta be one of the best defensive CF's around, plus he steals bases.

Anyone guess what he will command in the FA market next year? I heard Houston and Philly could be the best suitors for him.

Cameron hitting much better on the road is not just a rumor -- the numbers prove it out. His home/road splits are incredible. Cameron is one players I was dead wrong about. I didn't think he'd amount to anything, but now I'd love to have him roaming centerfield for the Sox. He walks a fair amount, and he's not far behind A. Jones as the best defensive CF-er in the game. I think he'll probably be too expensive for the Sox, though.

jabrch
09-29-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Has anyone thought of Cameron? Yes, he K's a lot, and his Seattle numbers suck, but the rumor is he hates Safeco field and hits very well on the road (not to mention very well at Comiskey).

And he's gotta be one of the best defensive CF's around, plus he steals bases.

Anyone guess what he will command in the FA market next year? I heard Houston and Philly could be the best suitors for him.

I like him...but I can't see him being any less expensive than Everett. I also don't think we need another strikout guy in our order. He has to hit bottom of the order - not a 1/2 guy...so I don't see him being the best fit. Although I'd love a great rangy CF like him.

kittle42
09-29-2003, 04:24 PM
Obviously, the answer in CF is Gary Redus.

RichH55
09-29-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by idseer
Did he not take less money to be here last time?

yes, slightly less, perhaps 1/10 ..... irrelevent -->Why irrelevant? Since what I'm asking for means him taking a potential paycut on what he could make...since there is no one that is going to pay him 5 million a season for 2004

Has not the baseball economics changed?

yes, slightly ..... irrelevent -->Why would economics be irrelevant for a contract? Do you not know what economics are? Essentially I meant this would depress contracts league wide, so why wouldn't Jose be a part of that
Is he not older(wrong side of 30 older) than when he signed his last contract?

yes .....irrelevent...>Getting older after 30 usually pushes your contract down*there are exceptions, but Jose isn't Barry Bonds either...seems like it would matter here

Do you know what the word irrelevant means?

Are his numbers better than they were when he signed the last contract?

better, but not significantly better. he did have more homeruns and was much better in the field. ..... irrelevent

He was actually worse at the plate, though his errors are down...Still poorer numbers while getting older tends to negatively affect your value

Assuming the Sox "show" him they want to win, has he not said he would take a paycut to come back?

what does this mean exactly? how many signings and who will it take for him to be "shown'? ..... irrelevent.....

He said he would take less, we are talking about him taking less, How in the H is this not relevant....If the topic was Do you like Hot Dogs? And I said, "Yes, I like Hotdogs" you would say irrelevant.
I'm as impressed as the next guy that you learned a new word, but please have someone teach you its context

Did he not acknowledge he would be a backup elsewhere, since he wanted to win(denoting that he would make less money elsewhere to since a backup generally makes less than a starter)

less than what? you take this to mean he'd give up over 2 thirds of his pay to sit on a 'winners' bench? ..... meaningless

He doesnt have a ton of options was the point, and in contracts leverage is important, and since we are talking about contracts it is thus relevant

Where is the flight of fancy again?

alive and well and living inside your head!

idseer
09-29-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Did he not take less money to be here last time?

yes, slightly less, perhaps 1/10 ..... irrelevent -->Why irrelevant? Since what I'm asking for means him taking a potential paycut on what he could make...since there is no one that is going to pay him 5 million a season for 2004

Has not the baseball economics changed?

yes, slightly ..... irrelevent -->Why would economics be irrelevant for a contract? Do you not know what economics are? Essentially I meant this would depress contracts league wide, so why wouldn't Jose be a part of that
Is he not older(wrong side of 30 older) than when he signed his last contract?

yes .....irrelevent...>Getting older after 30 usually pushes your contract down*there are exceptions, but Jose isn't Barry Bonds either...seems like it would matter here

Do you know what the word irrelevant means?

Are his numbers better than they were when he signed the last contract?

better, but not significantly better. he did have more homeruns and was much better in the field. ..... irrelevent

He was actually worse at the plate, though his errors are down...Still poorer numbers while getting older tends to negatively affect your value

Assuming the Sox "show" him they want to win, has he not said he would take a paycut to come back?

what does this mean exactly? how many signings and who will it take for him to be "shown'? ..... irrelevent.....

He said he would take less, we are talking about him taking less, How in the H is this not relevant....If the topic was Do you like Hot Dogs? And I said, "Yes, I like Hotdogs" you would say irrelevant.
I'm as impressed as the next guy that you learned a new word, but please have someone teach you its context

Did he not acknowledge he would be a backup elsewhere, since he wanted to win(denoting that he would make less money elsewhere to since a backup generally makes less than a starter)

less than what? you take this to mean he'd give up over 2 thirds of his pay to sit on a 'winners' bench? ..... meaningless

He doesnt have a ton of options was the point, and in contracts leverage is important, and since we are talking about contracts it is thus relevant





ok. your first question ... why irrelevent. if the pay cut he took was about 1/10 .... and YOU are suggesting he will cut his pay by MORE THAN 2/3'S ... that is like 3/30ths compared to 20/30ths! the cut you seem to expect him to take is not relevant to the cut he took 2 years ago.

next ... economics has changed very little in 2 years. you talk like we're comparing the last few years to the 70's! unrealistic and irrelevant.

next ... i believe you're wrong. i believe very few players pay goes down in pay at age of 31. making your statement irrelevant.

next ... yes! i DO know what irrelevant means.

next ... i SAID his numbers were down, didn't i? i also said not significantly. and i stick to that. he had 28 homeruns the most he's ever had. his average was down, but his ops was better than his lifetime average! his rbi's were the 4th highest he's ever had. his stolen bases were up from the year before. his runs scored were the 3rd best he's ever had. his walks were up. his hit total was 4th best of his career. and it was one of his best fielding years! plus he was 3rd in the league in range factor and 2nd in zone rating!
to hear you tell it he had a terrible year. he didn't! so your comment about his going downhill are bunk! irrelevant!

next ... you say "He said he would take less, we are talking about him taking less, How in the H is this not relevant...."
it's not relevant because it doesn't include any relative figures. i AGREE he may take less to stay ... but not more than 2/3's less!
irelevant!

yes he said he'd backup somewhere else. but he didn't say he'd take less money to do it ( tho i doubt anyone will give him 5 mil again ... tho you never know) he only said he'd take less money to stay here. that could mean anything. it could have meant he'd take 4.5 mil.

lastly you say he doesn't have a ton of options. how the hell do you know? are you his agent? again ... IRRELEVANT!


look rich, you can make your smarmy remarks if you like but you have nothing to stand on here. the whole point is that i way disagree with you on the amount less he's willing to take and your comments like "oh he said he'd take less' as your proof borders on ridiculous when you throw around figures like 1.5 mil to a guy making 5 mil and still producing about as well as he ever has.

if you want to keep up your tirade against my arguments to your assertion go ahead. it just makes you look silly.

RichH55
09-29-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by idseer
ok. your first question ... why irrelevent. if the pay cut he took was about 1/10 .... and YOU are suggesting he will cut his pay by MORE THAN 2/3'S ... that is like 3/30ths compared to 20/30ths! the cut you seem to expect him to take is not relevant to the cut he took 2 years ago.

next ... economics has changed very little in 2 years. you talk like we're comparing the last few years to the 70's! unrealistic and irrelevant.

next ... i believe you're wrong. i believe very few players pay goes down in pay at age of 31. making your statement irrelevant.

next ... yes! i DO know what irrelevant means.

next ... i SAID his numbers were down, didn't i? i also said not significantly. and i stick to that. he had 28 homeruns the most he's ever had. his average was down, but his ops was better than his lifetime average! his rbi's were the 4th highest he's ever had. his stolen bases were up from the year before. his runs scored were the 3rd best he's ever had. his walks were up. his hit total was 4th best of his career. and it was one of his best fielding years! plus he was 3rd in the league in range factor and 2nd in zone rating!
to hear you tell it he had a terrible year. he didn't! so your comment about his going downhill are bunk! irrelevant!

next ... you say "He said he would take less, we are talking about him taking less, How in the H is this not relevant...."
it's not relevant because it doesn't include any relative figures. i AGREE he may take less to stay ... but not more than 2/3's less!
irelevant!

yes he said he'd backup somewhere else. but he didn't say he'd take less money to do it ( tho i doubt anyone will give him 5 mil again ... tho you never know) he only said he'd take less money to stay here. that could mean anything. it could have meant he'd take 4.5 mil.

lastly you say he doesn't have a ton of options. how the hell do you know? are you his agent? again ... IRRELEVANT!


look rich, you can make your smarmy remarks if you like but you have nothing to stand on here. the whole point is that i way disagree with you on the amount less he's willing to take and your comments like "oh he said he'd take less' as your proof borders on ridiculous when you throw around figures like 1.5 mil to a guy making 5 mil and still producing about as well as he ever has.

if you want to keep up your tirade against my arguments to your assertion go ahead. it just makes you look silly.

Hey...this is a good argument...no personal shots.

1) I think he will take less to be here...Less than what he is worth, like last time. In no way is he "worth" 5 million on the open market/......Very important difference in our perceptions

2) The FA market was dead last year, especially for guys in the Jose group (ie not top of the line)....THe Astros are talking about dealing Wagner and he's been great for along while.....It's also a pretty good year for FA SS's thereinby further limiting Jose's value

3) At age 33-34, which Jose is, Players don't generally get huge raises coming off so-so years...I don't think Javy Lopez is going to get huge dollars and he plays C(harder to find than SS) and put up monster numbers. Irod got 10 million last year, but for one year.
Some guys will get big dollars, most will not. THe class of FA that Jose is in will be hurt the most

4) The his "value" is down is part and parcel to my argument of 1.5-2 million, especially considering I think he will take a paycut from his "value" --> Not just from his last contract

5) His numbers are definately down from the peak that led to his last contract. He's not near the .840 OPS he was putting up. His errors were down, and his power was about where it should be. .....Overall still down from his last few years, and this in a contract year no less (Contract Years tend to bring out the best in people : See Javy Lopez and Carl Everett).....Putting up worse numbers in a contract year, at an advanced age, in a depressed market is not the way to earn big money

6) Jose himself is limiting his options, as he did last time around(both relevant). He wants to play for a contender --> check off quite a few teams. He will play backup --> add a few options, but limits the paycut for those teams as no one is going to pay a FA 5 million to backup someone.

7) Jose's value is maximized in Chicago. He has shown himself to be the ultimate team player and is a locker room leader. Good things to have, but things that aren't usually the keys to big paydays on the FA market


So how is 1.5-2 million way way out of the question?

idseer
09-30-2003, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Hey...this is a good argument...no personal shots.

1) I think he will take less to be here...Less than what he is worth, like last time. In no way is he "worth" 5 million on the open market/......Very important difference in our perceptions

2) The FA market was dead last year, especially for guys in the Jose group (ie not top of the line)....THe Astros are talking about dealing Wagner and he's been great for along while.....It's also a pretty good year for FA SS's thereinby further limiting Jose's value

3) At age 33-34, which Jose is, Players don't generally get huge raises coming off so-so years...I don't think Javy Lopez is going to get huge dollars and he plays C(harder to find than SS) and put up monster numbers. Irod got 10 million last year, but for one year.
Some guys will get big dollars, most will not. THe class of FA that Jose is in will be hurt the most

4) The his "value" is down is part and parcel to my argument of 1.5-2 million, especially considering I think he will take a paycut from his "value" --> Not just from his last contract

5) His numbers are definately down from the peak that led to his last contract. He's not near the .840 OPS he was putting up. His errors were down, and his power was about where it should be. .....Overall still down from his last few years, and this in a contract year no less (Contract Years tend to bring out the best in people : See Javy Lopez and Carl Everett).....Putting up worse numbers in a contract year, at an advanced age, in a depressed market is not the way to earn big money

6) Jose himself is limiting his options, as he did last time around(both relevant). He wants to play for a contender --> check off quite a few teams. He will play backup --> add a few options, but limits the paycut for those teams as no one is going to pay a FA 5 million to backup someone.

7) Jose's value is maximized in Chicago. He has shown himself to be the ultimate team player and is a locker room leader. Good things to have, but things that aren't usually the keys to big paydays on the FA market


So how is 1.5-2 million way way out of the question?


mostly, the points you make are for jose not getting a raise. taking such a huge cut is a different animal altogether. i've made my position as clear as i can and you haven't, apparently, bought into it. there's nothing more to say except let's wait and see what happens.

RichH55
09-30-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by idseer
mostly, the points you make are for jose not getting a raise. taking such a huge cut is a different animal altogether. i've made my position as clear as i can and you haven't, apparently, bought into it. there's nothing more to say except let's wait and see what happens.

So when he signs I can expect kudos from you:)

idseer
09-30-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
So when he signs I can expect kudos from you:)


or vice versa :D: