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Lip Man 1
09-27-2003, 03:09 AM
Teddy Greenstein has a story on the Saturday Tribune website that states the Sox have offered Bartolo Colon a new contract extension.

According to the story the Sox and Colon HAVE agreed on the number of years but are still apart on money (Naturally...)

Colon is quoted as saying that he wants to remain with the Sox because he loves the city and the team.

Williams is continuing to work with Colon and his agent to get a deal done. Williams wants it done sooner rather then later (although I'd assume many of the free agents are going to wait until they see who the manager will be...)

The story also goes into the other Sox free agent / arbitration eligible players to give a status report on them.

Finally Williams seems to be agreeing with my philosophy that the Sox have to go back to their roots if they actually want to win (i.e. pitching, speed, defense, pitching, pitching and MORE pitching...) based on this quote from the story:

"To me, pitching is a priority," Williams said. "I think if you can pitch, you can compete. You might be able to slug your way to a division title, but it's very difficult to slug your way through the playoffs.

Amen brother! I'm liking this guy more and more every day. Don't be surprised if he moves some of the slow footed Sox sluggers in an effort to get more gap and spray hitters like the Twins.

By the way this is the second published comment by Williams in the past few days that says he's going to concentrate on pitching. The other basically said that after he hired a new manager he was going to "rebuild" the pitching staff!

Good for him! I'll take my chances with a staff as good as the ones in 64, 67, 83, 90, 93 and 94.

Lip

RichH55
09-27-2003, 03:22 AM
All good news Lip.....Well I think I might disagree about defense and speed....Tony Womack starting at SS in a World Series tends to blur some distinctions.

You can never have enough pitching....its probably the most true maxim associated with baseball....bringing Colon back would go along way in putting this team in a position to do well next year

Hangar18
09-27-2003, 09:45 AM
WOW. Im really liking what KW is trying to do. I think COLON will RESIGN here, I knew he would want to stay, considering how good this team almost was. THIS TAKES THE CUBBIE DIVISION TITLE/Riot in the streets easier to take. Thank You Kenny.
IM RE-UPPING MY SEASON TIX FOR NEXT YEAR

soxtalker
09-27-2003, 09:51 AM
Regarding the role of the manager decision in this, it probably works both ways. Having Colon signed might make this a more attractive job for the experienced types that we are talking about. I wonder if they can discuss possible managers with Colon in the negotiations.

voodoochile
09-27-2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Regarding the role of the manager decision in this, it probably works both ways. Having Colon signed might make this a more attractive job for the experienced types that we are talking about. I wonder if they can discuss possible managers with Colon in the negotiations.

Man, I hope not. Sign Colon or don't, but don't let him pick the manager...

jabrch
09-27-2003, 10:10 AM
That's great news. I agree with everyone who agrees with Kenny that pitching wins championships. The only reality we need to face is that if we spend the 8mm on Colon and we have a 60mm salary cap that means that now we have no chance of keeping Thomas, Lee and Mags. (those big sluggers in the middle that Kenny is talking about)

Applaud Kenny for this move - I am - but realize it provides us with fewer opportunities to resign the big sticks. We can't have our cake and eat it to...unless the Chairman throws down the guantlett and 15mm and tells Kenny to go out and win this thing!

MRKARNO
09-27-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
That's great news. I agree with everyone who agrees with Kenny that pitching wins championships. The only reality we need to face is that if we spend the 8mm on Colon and we have a 60mm salary cap that means that now we have no chance of keeping Thomas, Lee and Mags. (those big sluggers in the middle that Kenny is talking about)



I'd rather see KW trade away some of our sluggers for some guys who can hit for average to balance our lineup. We have too much right handed power and we need a good contact hitter (Lee for a Milton Bradley type maybe?)

idseer
09-27-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
That's great news. I agree with everyone who agrees with Kenny that pitching wins championships. The only reality we need to face is that if we spend the 8mm on Colon and we have a 60mm salary cap that means that now we have no chance of keeping Thomas, Lee and Mags. (those big sluggers in the middle that Kenny is talking about)

Applaud Kenny for this move - I am - but realize it provides us with fewer opportunities to resign the big sticks. We can't have our cake and eat it to...unless the Chairman throws down the guantlett and 15mm and tells Kenny to go out and win this thing!

looking at it strictly from a financial point of view, and assuming one of those three DOES have to go it's GOT to be magglio, don't you think? thomas is too good a deal and lee is still relatively cheap yet capable of putting up star numbers. thiswould be ok with me as 14 mil ought to buy a couple good players.

Hangar18
09-27-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
That's great news. I agree with everyone who agrees with Kenny that pitching wins championships. The only reality we need to face is that if we spend the 8mm on Colon and we have a 60mm salary cap that means that now we have no chance of keeping Thomas, Lee and Mags. (those big sluggers in the middle that Kenny is talking about)

Applaud Kenny for this move - I am - but realize it provides us with fewer opportunities to resign the big sticks. We can't have our cake and eat it to...unless the Chairman throws down the guantlett and 15mm and tells Kenny to go out and win this thing!

First off, the freaking Cub payroll is 90 Million right now. NINETY MILLION DOLLARS. We need to realize that 60 Million wont win anything. The Salary to move is KONERKO's. Thomas at 6million is a Steal. I think Colon will give us a Discount. Maggs contract needs to be ReStructured, so that the LUMP of it ISNT at the end of the contract. Maggs is the guy you build around. Lee Deserves to stay here.....We foolishly trade him, he becomes a Huge Star down the Road. the dead wood on this team are KONERKO, KOCH, VALENTIN. These guys are making a TON of $$$$, we erase them, and weve saved a ton of money we supposedly dont have. Dont Sell Reinsy so short. I think He realizes how CLOSE WE ARE, and got a sip of Champagne from the Championship Chalice.......and Hes Ready to GUZZLE from it now. Our Payroll MUST INCREASE if we are to ...in the words of James Bond "finish the job".

soxtalker
09-27-2003, 11:47 AM
Regarding the role of the manager decision in this, it probably works both ways. Having Colon signed might make this a more attractive job for the experienced types that we are talking about. I wonder if they can discuss possible managers with Colon in the negotiations.

Originally posted by voodoochile
Man, I hope not. Sign Colon or don't, but don't let him pick the manager...

That's a bit stronger than I intended. What about saying that Colon might influence the choice of manager. Say, for example, talking to him about whether he'd prefer someone like LTR or Gaston instead of someone like Backman. It doesn't sound like they've made a final decision yet, so you could almost look upon it as helping to narrow down the list.

Having said that, I'm not as convinced as most on this board that signing Colon is that important or even such a good idea. His inconsistency during the season makes me think that he might be losing it. And I'd hate to see the Sox saddled with a big contract.

ChiSox14305635
09-27-2003, 01:08 PM
I'm liking KW more and more. I think, with all due respect to Theo Epstein in Boston, the best up and coming GM has got to be KW (Beane screwed himself with that Moneyball fiasco).

We need to return to being a pitching dominant, speed team. And that starts with a CF. I like Everett, & I think Rowand makes a great addition off the bench, but we need somebody that can roam the fields and run down liners & cover tons of grounds, but who can also provide a high OBP (Juan Pierre comes to mind). CLee & Mags (if he's still here) provide strong presences in the corner slots, but we need someone to be able to roam in the middle.

harwar
09-27-2003, 01:13 PM
Its no secret that Reinsdorf is the one who wanted a team of powerful DHs.He thinks teams built on pitching & defense are boring.Maybe he has finally got that out of his system and KW can go about the business of builing a REAL MLB team.

SoxxoS
09-27-2003, 01:24 PM
:reinsy

OK.

5 years, 8 million. What's the problem?

jabrch
09-27-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
First off, the freaking Cub payroll is 90 Million right now. NINETY MILLION DOLLARS. We need to realize that 60 Million wont win anything. The Salary to move is KONERKO's. Thomas at 6million is a Steal. I think Colon will give us a Discount. Maggs contract needs to be ReStructured, so that the LUMP of it ISNT at the end of the contract. Maggs is the guy you build around. Lee Deserves to stay here.....We foolishly trade him, he becomes a Huge Star down the Road. the dead wood on this team are KONERKO, KOCH, VALENTIN. These guys are making a TON of $$$$, we erase them, and weve saved a ton of money we supposedly dont have. Dont Sell Reinsy so short. I think He realizes how CLOSE WE ARE, and got a sip of Champagne from the Championship Chalice.......and Hes Ready to GUZZLE from it now. Our Payroll MUST INCREASE if we are to ...in the words of James Bond "finish the job".

Sure Hangar, we'd all love to get rid of Konerko and Koch (13mm) and Valentin (4mm) and get a SS who can hit. However, the reality is that we won't be able to move Koch and Konerko without taking on other teams salary problems. I hope we find a taker who won't stick us with too much other crap in return, I just don't see it happening - realistically.

I'd tend to agree with the sentiment that Lee is on the rise and Thomas is more inexpensive than Mags, so trade Mags to unload your largest salary and get a pre-arbitratoin guy who can play in return.

Here's my proposal. Offer Lee arbitration or a long term deal, either way. Assume he costs 6 next year. Resign Frank. Lets say he costs 7. Trade Mags ALONG WITH KONERKO and get a guy like Nick Johnson along with a pitching prospect. (maybe a RP to replce Royce Ring?) That frees up over 20mm of salary. We (assumedly) will have used about 4 of it already to give Colon a raise. Of the remaining 16 we need a RF, a 2B and a SS. We have 4mm of credit if we let Jose go, so lets say we have 20 for those spots. I say bring back Robbie and Sandy for 4 mm total (I assume they are a package deal). 16mm left for a RF and a SS. Lots of options here guys... Sheffield is available. We can try to go with Reed/Borchard and spend cash on a Tejada/Matsui at SS. We do lots of things with 16mm needing a RF and a SS. The key is to not trade Maggs unless we can tie him with Konerko's deal and get a guy who can start for us TODAY at 1B or RF.

SoxxoS
09-27-2003, 02:07 PM
I like the Reed/Borchard idea in right, and using the money to sign Tejada or Matsui. Sounds good.

I think Reed is a perennial all-star in this league. I think not only does he have the natural ability and talent, he seems to be really smart. Backman said if a pitcher gets him the first two times, he will make whatever adjustment to walk/get a hit the next time up.

After all that, they will still have money leftover to sign who they want. I guess we shall see.

Tree
09-27-2003, 02:12 PM
I might catch a ration of (VC edit: if you continue to try and evade the language filters then you will indeed catch some ****) about this. But since Arod mentioned he wanted out of TX. Could we possibly do a Koch, Konerko, Maggs deal for him? We may have to keep Konerko but we wouldnt have to worry about the D at SS anymore. Makes sense to me because didnt JR want to sign him for like 18mil per? If we lose Koch's deal might make it worth it.

cornball
09-27-2003, 02:20 PM
KW is right about pitching and Colon returning would be the best move and the most important move this club could make. KW has guts and he has shown that as soon as he became GM.

The important thing is for the club to get off to a fast start next season, so JR will spend the finishing touches for a series run...similar to this year.

jabrch
09-27-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I think Reed is a perennial all-star in this league. b

Boy do I hope you are right. I have stopped speculating about guys I have never seen, but I'd love to see it!

jeremyb1
09-27-2003, 02:25 PM
I can't believe people are heaping praise on KW for attempting to resign Colon. Isn't that more or less a given that you should try to resign your top flight starter? The big issue is how good of a deal he can work out money wise and how he can jugle the payroll if he needs to.

jabrch
09-27-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I can't believe people are heaping praise on KW for attempting to resign Colon. Isn't that more or less a given that you should try to resign your top flight starter? The big issue is how good of a deal he can work out money wise and how he can jugle the payroll if he needs to.

Jeremy, I give him credit for having the right idea and going to secure the SP first and then worry about the hitting. If he were more politically inclined, he'd focus on the big names that are more "Sox Guys" like Mags and Frank and then worry about filling in the blanks later in the SP.

OEO Magglio
09-27-2003, 04:33 PM
Wow I really really hope Colon is back next year, if we can somehow keep this staff together, and with a new manager next year this team should be just fine, lets hope kw and colon can agree on something and get him back here for a couple more years, Lip were there any specifics on what KW was offering?

Dadawg_77
09-27-2003, 04:38 PM
Yeah you really win WS with pitching and speed. How many WS do the Yankees have? How many did they win with pitching? You win because you score more then your opponent, while you can't win with crap pitching, you can win with average pitching and one hell of an offense. How many WS did the Braves win with their great pitching staff? This year the Braves are stronger then any of those teams because they can hit the ball. Zona did beat the Yankees with pitching but they also blew out the Yankees twice in that series and the two most dominate pitchers in the game that year. But I guess it is easier to believe in old "wise" TAILS, then to actually look at what happens.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2003, 10:13 PM
The Yankees won at least one of their recent World Series being in the middle of the pack offensively.

The Yankees got a chance to win four World Series in the last eight years because their starting pitchers were paid collectively an average of forty million dollars.

The get the best of the best where really needed starting pitching and Rivera in the bullpen.

The Sox have fallen all over themselves hitting home runs the past three years and where has it gotten them?

Maybe the reason is because at best they've only had three quality guys in the rotation, you need more then that my friend.

Lip

MRKARNO
09-27-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The Yankees won at least one of their recent World Series being in the middle of the pack offensively.

The Yankees got a chance to win four World Series in the last eight years because their starting pitchers were paid collectively an average of forty million dollars.

The get the best of the best where really needed starting pitching and Rivera in the bullpen.

The Sox have fallen all over themselves hitting home runs the past three years and where has it gotten them?

Maybe the reason is because at best they've only had three quality guys in the rotation, you need more then that my friend.

Lip

I would love to see what they did tonight for a whole season (contact, not power hitting) and see where it takes them (under TLR hopefully). Now that we know they know how to hit contact style, let's see it! I love that style of game. Screw the home runs, lets see what frank can do for a whole season at first base and with a contact hitter mentality

MHOUSE
09-27-2003, 11:13 PM
Although he didn't win 20 games, Colon finishes up with a 15-13 record and a very huge 8 complete games. I don't think a Sox pitcher has had more and 3 or 4 in a season since I've been a fan. I think that he was somewhat mismanged early on in the season and that his record and consistency might have been better if Jerry wasn't messing him up. 242.0 IP is a big help to a pretty young staff. I feel we have a chance to win every time he is on the mound regardless. I can't say the same about Garland or the #5 starter at all. I hope the Sox can resign him, but honestly I don't see it happening. Once he sees the Yankees $ figure versus ours and the # of trophies there will be no question.

Kilroy
09-28-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by cornball
KW is right about pitching and Colon returning would be the best move and the most important move this club could make. KW has guts and he has shown that as soon as he became GM.

The important thing is for the club to get off to a fast start next season, so JR will spend the finishing touches for a series run...similar to this year.

I like our world next year coming in with Buehrle, Colon, Esty, and even Garland. He's still maturing, and can still improve. That five hole is a problem tho. Something has to be done there. If they can do something with that, then I'd like to see the exact same team back on the field. Of course, that's all money driven, and Robbie won't be that cheap, and neither will Everett, who I really couldn't care less about. I like his vet presence, but I would like to see a speed player there. If willie harris could get on base, we might have what we need.

RichH55
09-28-2003, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I like our world next year coming in with Buehrle, Colon, Esty, and even Garland. He's still maturing, and can still improve. That five hole is a problem tho. Something has to be done there. If they can do something with that, then I'd like to see the exact same team back on the field. Of course, that's all money driven, and Robbie won't be that cheap, and neither will Everett, who I really couldn't care less about. I like his vet presence, but I would like to see a speed player there. If willie harris could get on base, we might have what we need.


Could have a real nice top 4.....Still the 5 could come from within....Some good organizational candidates and you can bring people into Spring Training too.....Maybe see what the going rate on Sterling Hitchcock is?

SaltyPretzel
09-28-2003, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I think Colon will give us a Discount.

:KW "I have a coupon"

RichH55
09-28-2003, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by SaltyPretzel
:KW "I have a coupon"


7-8 million for 3-4 years(though apparently the years aren't a problem)

voodoochile
09-28-2003, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
7-8 million for 3-4 years(though apparently the years aren't a problem)

*****! I will be VERY surprised if he signs for less than 40M over 4 years. If that is the best the Sox will offer, this is the ARod smoke screen all over again...

RichH55
09-28-2003, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
*****! I will be VERY surprised if he signs for less than 40M over 4 years. If that is the best the Sox will offer, this is the ARod smoke screen all over again...

I'm just hoping:) I think the 4 years is a given....Sox offering 7 per, Colon wanting 10 (hence the reports of a money difference)

voodoochile
09-28-2003, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I'm just hoping:) I think the 4 years is a given....Sox offering 7 per, Colon wanting 10 (hence the reports of a money difference)

actually, that is the dead minimum I expect him to even consider. I wouldn't be surprised to see 4 years, 50M by the time all is said and done.

hold2dibber
09-28-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Although he didn't win 20 games, Colon finishes up with a 15-13 record and a very huge 8 complete games. I don't think a Sox pitcher has had more and 3 or 4 in a season since I've been a fan. I think that he was somewhat mismanged early on in the season and that his record and consistency might have been better if Jerry wasn't messing him up. 242.0 IP is a big help to a pretty young staff. I feel we have a chance to win every time he is on the mound regardless. I can't say the same about Garland or the #5 starter at all. I hope the Sox can resign him, but honestly I don't see it happening. Once he sees the Yankees $ figure versus ours and the # of trophies there will be no question.

Obviously, the Sox cannot out-spend the Yankees. From all reports, KW is negotiating with Colon now, before he actually hits free agency. If Colon feels like the numbers are fair, if he likes Chicago and his teammates, he'll re-sign. If not and he tests the FA waters, he's gone.

duke of dorwood
09-28-2003, 01:45 PM
If they spend on Colon, they will not spend on a manager. It always comes down to a choice with this team. If you want to win, you gotta do both.

Lip Man 1
09-28-2003, 02:07 PM
Duke:

Very, very true and unfortunately I just think this team can have both but chooses not to.

Lip

gosox41
09-29-2003, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Teddy Greenstein has a story on the Saturday Tribune website that states the Sox have offered Bartolo Colon a new contract extension.

According to the story the Sox and Colon HAVE agreed on the number of years but are still apart on money (Naturally...)

Colon is quoted as saying that he wants to remain with the Sox because he loves the city and the team.

Williams is continuing to work with Colon and his agent to get a deal done. Williams wants it done sooner rather then later (although I'd assume many of the free agents are going to wait until they see who the manager will be...)

The story also goes into the other Sox free agent / arbitration eligible players to give a status report on them.

Finally Williams seems to be agreeing with my philosophy that the Sox have to go back to their roots if they actually want to win (i.e. pitching, speed, defense, pitching, pitching and MORE pitching...) based on this quote from the story:

"To me, pitching is a priority," Williams said. "I think if you can pitch, you can compete. You might be able to slug your way to a division title, but it's very difficult to slug your way through the playoffs.

Amen brother! I'm liking this guy more and more every day. Don't be surprised if he moves some of the slow footed Sox sluggers in an effort to get more gap and spray hitters like the Twins.

By the way this is the second published comment by Williams in the past few days that says he's going to concentrate on pitching. The other basically said that after he hired a new manager he was going to "rebuild" the pitching staff!

Good for him! I'll take my chances with a staff as good as the ones in 64, 67, 83, 90, 93 and 94.

Lip

Rebuild the pitching staff????

Did the Sox not win the division this year due to bad pitching or bad hitting (especially during the first half of the seaon?)

I'm not going ot get into one of these pitching/hitting debates but each has equal importance on winning. The fact is if the Sox hitting didn't suck the first half then we'd be in the playoffs. The pitching didn't hurt us.

The Sox need to focus on hitting, mainly finding guys that no can get on base a lot and keep the K's to a minimum (just like the A's)

Bob

RichH55
09-29-2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Rebuild the pitching staff????

Did the Sox not win the division this year due to bad pitching or bad hitting (especially during the first half of the seaon?)

I'm not going ot get into one of these pitching/hitting debates but each has equal importance on winning. The fact is if the Sox hitting didn't suck the first half then we'd be in the playoffs. The pitching didn't hurt us.

The Sox need to focus on hitting, mainly finding guys that no can get on base a lot and keep the K's to a minimum (just like the A's)

Bob

Well seeing as "rebuilding" the pitching staff amounts to "keeping the status quo".....I don't think that's really the issue.....IF you think that pitching was a strength of the team than it makes sense to keep core parts together

Lip Man 1
09-29-2003, 01:38 AM
Bob:

For what it's worth that same pitching staff lost ten games where the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later. Eight of those ten games took place before July 4th.

I mention that only because while it is true the Sox hitting was bad, it worked well enough to have a lead that the pitchers lost, at least in those games.

If the Sox win half of those ten blown games they might be looking at a playoff game tomorrow.

The Sox had a good pitching staff...not great. The 5th starter was a black hole, Koch was a disaster and outside of Gordon they didn't have any other quality guys from the right side. (at least until they acquired Sullivan)

With Colon, Gordon, Sullivan and Wunsch all eligible (under certain conditions) for free agency, with the uncertain status of Wright and with Schowenweis more then likely being moved into the rotation to replace either Colon or Wright, I can understand where Williams' is coming from when he made his statement.

That's a lot of question marks in a pitching staff.

Lip

Lip